What was the point of giving Eddie the Toxin symbiote?

#1 Edited by Degalon (737 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean...all this did was make...Red Venom. Toxin is nowhere to be found. Neither visually, nor in terms of the symbiote's personality or powers. Toxin suddenly vulnerable to sonics and fire, when it was a big point that it NEVER was before,not to mention suddenly being weaker than Venom, when another big point was that Toxin is stronger than both Venom and Carnage combined, and losing the blue part of its appearance, and now being a mass of tendrils instead of the "melted blanket" appearance it had before, or...anything to signify that it is the Toxin symbiote, really. The only thing to give a hint that it is Toxin is people SAYING it is. Otherwise, its just Eddie with a Carnage symbiote, making Red Venom. Methinks this is another case of the author not doing any research on a character before using them.

#2 Edited by CrimsonAlchemist (410 posts) - - Show Bio

@Degalon: Yea they really didn't use Toxin right, Toxin wasn't this monstrous in his limited series either and had more personality, Also the fact he has strong resistance to the weaknesses his species suffers from but he is gonna be back soon I just hope Eddie comes back not and not be portrayed like a villain.

#3 Posted by Mycroftian (109 posts) - - Show Bio

I think most of the decisions with how they handled Toxin could be justified. The weakness thing is a little wonky, yeah, but it's forgivable. Without those weaknesses Toxin would be basically invincible. You want an in-universe explanation? Maybe Eddie's knowledge/belief of symbiote weaknesses was so great that Toxin, by virtue of sharing some of his mind with Eddie, started to believe that those things would affect him. As for appearances. . . symbiotes are shape-shifters. Toxin can look like anything it wants. It's implied that its host has been killed (an off-panel killing is not nearly thorough enough for comics, mind you, so we'll have to see whether Mulligan shows up again), very likely in the presence of the symbiote. That sounds more than a little traumatic, and reason for a shift in personality and appearance.

Also, though Venom did take Toxin down, he mostly did it with trickery and weapons. I don't recall him ever being stated or even implied to be more powerful.

As for what purpose it served? It brought the Toxin symbiote back into the fold in a way that's going to have pretty major repercussions for Brock and the symbiote (I don't see their relationship working out in the long-term, but maybe that's just me). As for why it was given to Brock specifically instead of Joe Schmoe. . . I imagine the point was that Toxin needed to be bonded to a familiar, sympathetic character. Otherwise, why would we care about the sucker strapped inside? How would we know he wasn't a willing participant in the relationship? Toxin with Brock makes for an interesting, tragic villain. Also, if when the two break up, we get some "science" mumbo-jumbo about his time with Toxin rejuvenating Brock's Anti-Venom pseudo-symbiote, then as far as I care it was all worth it.

#4 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mycroftian said:

I think most of the decisions with how they handled Toxin could be justified. The weakness thing is a little wonky, yeah, but it's forgivable. Without those weaknesses Toxin would be basically invincible. You want an in-universe explanation? Maybe Eddie's knowledge/belief of symbiote weaknesses was so great that Toxin, by virtue of sharing some of his mind with Eddie, started to believe that those things would affect him. As for appearances. . . symbiotes are shape-shifters. Toxin can look like anything it wants. It's implied that its host has been killed (an off-panel killing is not nearly thorough enough for comics, mind you, so we'll have to see whether Mulligan shows up again), very likely in the presence of the symbiote. That sounds more than a little traumatic, and reason for a shift in personality and appearance.

Also, though Venom did take Toxin down, he mostly did it with trickery and weapons. I don't recall him ever being stated or even implied to be more powerful.

As for what purpose it served? It brought the Toxin symbiote back into the fold in a way that's going to have pretty major repercussions for Brock and the symbiote (I don't see their relationship working out in the long-term, but maybe that's just me). As for why it was given to Brock specifically instead of Joe Schmoe. . . I imagine the point was that Toxin needed to be bonded to a familiar, sympathetic character. Otherwise, why would we care about the sucker strapped inside? How would we know he wasn't a willing participant in the relationship? Toxin with Brock makes for an interesting, tragic villain. Also, if when the two break up, we get some "science" mumbo-jumbo about his time with Toxin rejuvenating Brock's Anti-Venom pseudo-symbiote, then as far as I care it was all worth it.

#5 Posted by XRuinX (6 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree, the Toxin situation was handled poorly. Honestly he should have never be striped of the Anit-Venom. Take away his ability to instantly cure, yes because its kinda an all-powerful ability but not take it away completely. Since they did however the next best thing would be him actually getting his Venom symbiote back and, ya know, using it for good. I dont like this "i have to kill my other" Eddie so much. Let's go back to cleaning up the streets from scum by killing them all. Eddie has changed so much through the comics and honestly he hasnt gotten much better. Wheres our young, buff and healthy Eddie who's livid with his cause? Instead we have this weak old man... I seriously would have prefered he die in his prime when he was saving the day as Venom.... on a side note....MAN his stink as Anti-Venom was short lived as hell! After his run with Punisher i was convinced he was about to become a rising star with a long(er) run..

#6 Edited by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

i don't agree with any of you. when his anti-venom title was taken away, eddie had a generic vampire hunter gimmick, giving him toxin back actually gave him a meaning again, and his character hasn't changed that much, he still does good in his own twisted way, the same way he did with ANTI-VENOM, i agree though that fire and sound should not be able to hurt him, but that was rick remenders fault, not bunns.

The Toxin In the current Venom title is very well executed, in fact it is really good, giving eddie the toxin symbiot makes him shine again, he is too good of a character to go to waste.

#7 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that some people don't have an issue with Eddie Brock having a purpose again, or even him being a symbiote again. But they are just annoyed that Toxin's unique differences (it's child-like personality, it's lack of weaknesses) from its symbiote family were completely ignored just so Remender could make Brock into 'Venom; again.

I'm not saying that Remender's writing can't be explained as pointed out, and I don't have an opinion either way - but I'm just pointing out what seems to be the general consensus.

#8 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark said:

I think that some people don't have an issue with Eddie Brock having a purpose again, or even him being a symbiote again. But they are just annoyed that Toxin's unique differences (it's child-like personality, it's lack of weaknesses) from its symbiote family were completely ignored just so Remender could make Brock into 'Venom; again.

I'm not saying that Remender's writing can't be explained as pointed out, and I don't have an opinion either way - but I'm just pointing out what seems to be the general consensus.

I get that, but my POINT was that even during remnders run, Toxin was clearly more powerful than Venom, hell Flash even says it himself, but the powers were a bit messed up. however , we have yet to see brock in action under Bunns pencil.

#9 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Be that as it may, Remender still discarded elements that separated Toxin from the rest of the symbiotes - aspects of the character that made him interesting and unique to some readers. 'Making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes.

#10 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark said:

Be that as it may, Remender still discarded elements that separated Toxin from the rest of the symbiotes - aspects of the character that made him interesting and unique to some readers. 'Making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes.

Well i wasn't happy either with that, but just one last thing, i never said remender made toxin more powerful, i said that thats one of the elements Remender stayed true to, since Toxin is tougher than Carnage and Venom.

#11 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Veshark said:

Be that as it may, Remender still discarded elements that separated Toxin from the rest of the symbiotes - aspects of the character that made him interesting and unique to some readers. 'Making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes.

Well i wasn't happy either with that, but just one last thing, i never said remender made toxin more powerful, i said that thats one of the elements Remender stayed true to, since Toxin is tougher than Carnage and Venom.

No, I actually understood that you didn't mean Remender made Toxin stronger. I guess what I meant to say was 'Just making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes. My apologies if that didn't come across.

But yeah, I just thought it was worth pointing out that the changes was what irritated people about the new Toxin, and not so much Eddie Brock.

#12 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Veshark said:

Be that as it may, Remender still discarded elements that separated Toxin from the rest of the symbiotes - aspects of the character that made him interesting and unique to some readers. 'Making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes.

Well i wasn't happy either with that, but just one last thing, i never said remender made toxin more powerful, i said that thats one of the elements Remender stayed true to, since Toxin is tougher than Carnage and Venom.

No, I actually understood that you didn't mean Remender made Toxin stronger. I guess what I meant to say was 'Just making him more powerful' doesn't discount those changes. My apologies if that didn't come across.

But yeah, I just thought it was worth pointing out that the changes was what irritated people about the new Toxin, and not so much Eddie Brock.

No need man :), you are right anyways

yeah, that kind of got on my nerves too :P, but hey, the new Toxin arc is still ahead, lets see if Bunn stays true to teh character :)

#13 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, who knows, maybe Bunn can bring new life to Eddie Brock!

But yeah, like I said before, I don't mind even if they don't keep Toxin's uniqueness. Toxin's not a favorite of mine or anything, so really the changes don't bother me at all.

#14 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark said:

Yeah, who knows, maybe Bunn can bring new life to Eddie Brock!

But yeah, like I said before, I don't mind even if they don't keep Toxin's uniqueness. Toxin's not a favorite of mine or anything, so really the changes don't bother me at all.

i didn't care much for toxin either, but i love eddie, so right now i love toxin :P

#15 Posted by w0nd (3415 posts) - - Show Bio

he looks like ground beef right now, his design is terrible....wtf

#17 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by w0nd (3415 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th said:

@veshark: @theacidskull: @hectorsquall: @mycroftian: @crimsonalchemist: @xruinx: @w0nd: My personal explanation is that, that symbiote is not Toxin its Hybrid but Toxin sounds cooler than Hybrid so Crime Master called them Toxin. It explains the look, the weakness, and makes sense.

eddie (the symbiote) refers to venom as grandad several times, while hybrid would he it s offspring I believe...

#19 Posted by CrimsonAlchemist (410 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: Your wrong Eddie killed Hybrid after he lost his Anti Venom Symbiote so I heavily doubt it.

#20 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: Yes the Grandpa reference does make it difficult to explain but I can just chalk it up to being a incorrect but meaningful nickname

@crimsonalchemist: Yes I read that story too but with my imagination I looked at it as Eddie injured Hybrid he killed Scott Warrington but the symbiotes survived. Weakened however they were easy to capture and sold in the black market where Crime Master bought the symbiotes.

SIDEBAR:

I just did some quick research on Hybrid and it seems someone beat me to the idea. Apparently I need to read Carnage USA.

#21 Posted by w0nd (3415 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: yeah i was going to question that too. IN carnage or at least carnage USA all the symbiotes show up on a screen saying what happened to them and their hosts. So that for sure is Toxin, just really really ugly and out of character.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.