finally DBZ time reaction has minimum quantification

#1 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

lack of quantifications is the biggest DBZ problem. i think i can provide a minimum quantification to DBZ reflex speed. and i won't use PL which is debatable that provide proportional speed as it do to raw power, i will go only by feats of speedblitz.

the speed of sight is 0.05 second, if someone can speedblitz a normal human his time reaction will be at least 0.05 second and i say at least, because that's the minimum time frame of an eye to perceive something.

the quickest kick ever recorded until now has time reaction of 0.3 second. that means that the quickest kick of a normal human is 6 times slower than sight. if someone has to blitz a normal human he should be 6 times faster than normal to achieve the least least speed for a kick blitz.

my calculations will be based on direct feats and no powerscaling, no PL and no hyperbols, just canon feats, but my calculations won't give the right speed of DBZ characters, it will give a speed less than the real speed of DBZ characters, but at least it's better to have a minimum cantification to be based on, than actual assumptions. as i said my calculation will give speed less than DBZ real speed, because of those points :

  • i will be based only on speedblitz feats, but DBZ speed growth has also happened in other feats where there is no blitz.
  • i will be using the lowest speed of blitz, which is the limit of time frame sight.
  • i will be using the speed of a kick which is normally faster than jumping, running and moving entire body that is necessary for speedblitz

okey, now we know, as i explained, that for someone to blitz o normal person he must be faster than his sight, meaning he should be 6 times faster normal human. if character A can blitz character B, that means at least A is 6 times faster than B. that means if B has time reaction of 0.3 second, A will have time reaction of 0.05 second, if character C can blitz A, then C has time reaction of 0.05 / 6 = 0.008333 second.

now let's start by Krilin and Roshi, they showed impressive feat of time reaction, where in 1 second, they moved several steps, exchanged sevral punches and kicks, exchanged words, and stopped to think for 1/5 second, it would be save to estimate their time reaction at 0.01 second.

Roshi was able after that to blitz Krilin, that makes him have time reaction at least of 0.001666 second.

at 22nd Budokai, Goku moved so fast Roshi couldn't see him, that makes Goku have at least time reaction of 0.00027777 second

Ten Chin Han who was equal to Goku at 22nd Budokai in speed, was not able to see Goku's movement at King Piccolo saga. that makes Goku has at least time reaction of 0.00004269 second

Yet even this Goku was too slow to even touch mr Popo, and mr Popo was so fast Goku was unable to see his movements. that makes Mr. Popo at least with time reaction of 7.716x10^(-6) second

23rd budokai Goku and Piccolo were so fast not even Kami who is much faster than Popo was able to see them. that means Goku and Piccolo had time reaction better than 1.286x10^(-6) second

Raditz was blitzing both Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of DBZ. that make Raditz with time reaction better than 2.1433x10^(-7) second

Nappa was much faster than Raditz, but Goku after King Kai's training was able easily to blitz Nappa, that makes Goku without Kaioken has time reaction better than 3.5722x10^(-8) second

Vegeta who surpassed Goku's speed without Kaioken, after he recovered from his fight with Goku, had became faster, but was easily blitzed by Burter. that makes Burter have time reaction better than 5.9537x10^(-9) second

Goku who was training under 100G gravity became so fast, that even without kaioken, he easily blitzed Burter. that make Goku have time reaction better than 9.90229x10^(-10) second

Piccolo after King Kai's training and Nail's power up, had become at least as equal as Goku. when he fought 3rd form Frieza, Piccolo stated that his speciality is speed, and Goku stated he can't beat Freiza at that level with his initial Namek level. and Frieza blitzed Piccolo, that makes 3rd form Frieza have time reaction better than 1.6538x10^(-10) second

Gohan matched Frieza in power and speed after getting angry, but he and all the others including Vegeta (who powered up again and became the strongest of them), were blitzed by Frieza 4th and final form, that makes Frieza at final from have time reaction better than 2.7563x10^(-11) second

Trunks moved so fast to dodge Frieza's attack, Frieza didn't see him getting behind him far a way on a hill. that makes Tranks have time reaction better than 4.59393x10^(-12) second

Android 17 is stronger than Trunks, and was blitzed by Imperfect Cell, that makes Imperfet Cell have time reaction better than 7.6565x10^(-13) second

now, skipping to gohan vs perfect Cell, Gohan was able to blitz Perfect Cell easily, that makes Gohan at SSJ2 have time reaction better than 1.27609x10^(-13) second

so just at the end of Cell Saga, SSJ2 Gohan had far beyond 0.1 picosecond reaction time. and if we keep going to Buu saga, time reaction will be greater. and just to remind you, that this is not the real time reaction, beause the real one is far far beyond this.

the likes of Superman, Superboy, Gladiator, Hyperion...etc have nanosecond reaction, it's clear now that DBZ fighters are very fast and can not just keep up with the likes of Superman but even surpass them in reaction speed.

sources :

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-fastest-known-kick-and-punch

http://theconversation.edu.au/hold-your-horses-news-just-in-on-the-speed-of-sight-760

http://www.wonderquest.com/sight-whale-tern.htm

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3061-1/dragon-ball/chapter-412.html

#2 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Very good analyzing. Honestly the math part of the calculation is too difficult for me to understand. I am curious now, if my reaction time is 0.3, how much would be their time here?

http://reflex.sosocial.net/reactionbutton.php

#3 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Very good analyzing. Honestly the math part of the calculation is too difficult for me to understand. I am curious now, if my reaction time is 0.3, how much would be their time here?

i don't get your question? who do you mean by "their"?

http://reflex.sosocial.net/reactionbutton.php

nice site.

#4 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Very good analyzing. Honestly the math part of the calculation is too difficult for me to understand. I am curious now, if my reaction time is 0.3, how much would be their time here?

i don't get your question? who do you mean by "their"?

http://reflex.sosocial.net/reactionbutton.php

nice site.

I mean, their reaction time. My reaction time is between 0.3 and 0.4, sometimes ~0.29.

#5 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Very good analyzing. Honestly the math part of the calculation is too difficult for me to understand. I am curious now, if my reaction time is 0.3, how much would be their time here?

i don't get your question? who do you mean by "their"?

http://reflex.sosocial.net/reactionbutton.php

nice site.

I mean, their reaction time. My reaction time is between 0.3 and 0.4, sometimes ~0.29.

0.3 is your reaction time at button click, but your reaction time at kick is surely slower than that. 0.3 second is the world record of the quickest kick (Bruce Lee's kick by the way) and i used it as the base normal human reaction. i can't calculate their reaction time starting from yours. as you can see above i started with Krillin reaction at 21st Budokai.

i think you didn't understand my principle, it's simple, we have to find the minimum reaction time to make a blitz (unseen movement in front of open eyes), we know that the quickest kick ever recorded is 0.3 second. human sight time frame is 0.05 second, that means even the quikest kick in the word is seen by eyes. to make this kick reach minimum time reaction to be unseen (blitz) it have to be 0.05 second exactly equal to human sight time frame. that means to go from 0.3 to 0.05, Bruce Lee who do the kick must make his kick 6 times faster than his quickest kick, because 0.3 / 6 = 0.05.

conclusion : imagine Bruce Lee with his doppelganger who equal him in time reaction, for Bruce Lee to kick-blitz his doppelganger he must be 6 times faster than his max speed. now back to DBZ, X who kick-blitz Y in DBZ means X must be at least 6 times faster than Y. then lets suppose A blitz B, and B blitz C, and C blitz D. that means A at least is 6 times faster than B, and B 6 times faster than C ...etc. meaning that A is 6x6x6= 216 times faster than D.

#6 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Very good analyzing. Honestly the math part of the calculation is too difficult for me to understand. I am curious now, if my reaction time is 0.3, how much would be their time here?

i don't get your question? who do you mean by "their"?

http://reflex.sosocial.net/reactionbutton.php

nice site.

I mean, their reaction time. My reaction time is between 0.3 and 0.4, sometimes ~0.29.

0.3 is your reaction time at button click, but your reaction time at kick is surely slower than that. 0.3 second is the world record of the quickest kick (Bruce Lee's kick by the way) and i used it as the base normal human reaction. i can't calculate their reaction time starting from yours. as you can see above i started with Krillin reaction at 21st Budokai.

i think you didn't understand my principle, it's simple, we have to find the minimum reaction time to make a blitz (unseen movement in front of open eyes), we know that the quickest kick ever recorded is 0.3 second. human sight time frame is 0.05 second, that means even the quikest kick in the word is seen by eyes. to make this kick reach minimum time reaction to be unseen (blitz) it have to be 0.05 second exactly equal to human sight time frame. that means to go from 0.3 to 0.05, Bruce Lee who do the kick must make his kick 6 times faster than his quickest kick, because 0.3 / 6 = 0.05.

conclusion : imagine Bruce Lee with his doppelganger who equal him in time reaction, for Bruce Lee to kick-blitz his doppelganger he must be 6 times faster than his max speed. now back to DBZ, X who kick-blitz Y in DBZ means X must be at least 6 times faster than Y. then lets suppose A blitz B, and B blitz C, and C blitz D. that means A at least is 6 times faster than B, and B 6 times faster than C ...etc. meaning that A is 6x6x6= 216 times faster than D.

I understand the method and that's why I said very good analyzing. Just the math part, I was bad at math so this is my fault.:) So I just believe you did it correctly.

But I don't understand that Bruce Lee part too now. The quickest kick 0.3 second what? Need 0.3 reaction time to react?

And you know, this can be converted into speed too somehow. How fast the minimum blitz speed is?

#7 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@mypasswordis1234:

The quickest kick 0.3 second what?

yes it's the world record of the fastest kick, made by Bruce Lee in only 0.3 second. amazing, isn't it.

Need 0.3 reaction time to react?

well, i used the fastest kick as reaction time, yes. if you try to hit Bruce Lee :D head on you'll need reaction time at least equal to his quickest kick, because if your reaction is slower than his 0.3s kick, then theorically, if he can read well your movements, he will strike you with his quickest kick before you can tag him. therefore, for you to actually hit him head on you'll need to have time reaction < or = to 0.3 second. meaning you'll need to be faster than his fastest move.

but that's not a blitz, a blitz is when your movement surpass his time frame sight which is, as every human have, equal to 0.05 second.

And you know, this can be converted into speed too somehow. How fast the minimum blitz speed is?

i actually don't know how to convert it to speed beause the problem is the distance, we know that the minimum time reaction for speed blitz is 0.05, but to convert it to speed we need to know what's the distance that the kick made.

according to this video (not sure if it's the video of the world record) the kick made about 1 meter. if we suppose it's 1 meter, then the speed of kick-blitz would be 1/0.05 = 20 m/s. so to kick-blitz a normal human you'll need speed about 20 m/s

#8 Posted by King_Bradley (77 posts) - - Show Bio

These calculations aren't taking into consideration several factors. There is also no such thing as the speed of sight since sight is a cognitive sense and not an quantitative measure. One human blitzing another wouldn't make them 6x faster either as it's dependent on several factors such as distance, muscle memory and reaction time, where the calculations in this thread only use a base statistic which is .05

On top of that DBZ's inconsistency convoluted this even further, for example both Goku and Cell ended up blitzing each other at least once during their fight, so there isn't anyway to tell who's six times faster than the other.

Math was pretty spot on since it was constantly being divided by 6, but 6 is an arbitrary number not taking in all considerations.

I know people are still upset over the Superman Goku Deathbattle but it's time to let ago, I was just happy that both characters came out looking strong so neither side should be complaining.

#9 Posted by NeonGameWave (7785 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: Awesome thread!

#10 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I get it now, the 0.3 sec is the time when the kick was done.

Well I think there are still more factor that decide it. A car can go with 20m/sec, it is 72km/h, if my formula correct(20*3,6, but I lazy to check it now). Even the some very quick runner can run 10m/sec.

So it depend on the size of the object and the distance.

Also there is an another thing. We know that the Z fighters from Saibamen episode, they see with their ki sense and not with their eyes... so when someone perform a blitz, they blitzing their sense, not eye-sign. I don't know how much it different.

#11 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I get it now, the 0.3 sec is the time when the kick was done.

Well I think there are still more factor that decide it. A car can go with 20m/sec, it is 72km/h, if my formula correct(20*3,6, but I lazy to check it now). Even the some very quick runner can run 10m/sec.

So it depend on the size of the object and the distance.

Also there is an another thing. We know that the Z fighters from Saibamen episode, they see with their ki sense and not with their eyes... so when someone perform a blitz, they blitzing their sense, not eye-sign. I don't know how much it different.

good points, it different a lot actually. since i remember Master Roshi was able to sense Goku with his Ki sense and unable to see him. that make the speed blitz even higher than just 6 times.

and as i said, my calculation is based on kick-blitz which is done in short distance. if a car can move instantaneously from 0 m/s to 20 m/s and it's about a meter far from you, then the car will surely blitz you. if we can see cars that move beyond 20 m/s by naked eye, that's because they are far (distance>>>1 meter) but the number of car frames is small, it's just our brain who make the connection between the frames to create car's movement in our brain. i don't know how to explain this correctly but it's the distance between eye frames that makes the difference. that's why i used time reaction instead of using speed that require distance.

#12 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@mypasswordis1234 said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: I get it now, the 0.3 sec is the time when the kick was done.

Well I think there are still more factor that decide it. A car can go with 20m/sec, it is 72km/h, if my formula correct(20*3,6, but I lazy to check it now). Even the some very quick runner can run 10m/sec.

So it depend on the size of the object and the distance.

Also there is an another thing. We know that the Z fighters from Saibamen episode, they see with their ki sense and not with their eyes... so when someone perform a blitz, they blitzing their sense, not eye-sign. I don't know how much it different.

good points, it different a lot actually. since i remember Master Roshi was able to sense Goku with his Ki sense and unable to see him. that make the speed blitz even higher than just 6 times.

and as i said, my calculation is based on kick-blitz which is done in short distance. if a car can move instantaneously from 0 m/s to 20 m/s and it's about a meter far from you, then the car will surely blitz you. if we can see cars that move beyond 20 m/s by naked eye, that's because they are far (distance>>>1 meter) but the number of car frames is small, it's just our brain who make the connection between the frames to create car's movement in our brain. i don't know how to explain this correctly but it's the distance between eye frames that makes the difference. that's why i used time reaction instead of using speed that require distance.

I get it now. I just want to tell now one another thing, I don't think it will change something, but

The 0.3 sec is the time when the kick was done. So this is how his feet moved there and back. But the kick is faster than our reflex half way too. I mean, the real time is around 0.15 sec from Bruce Lee's body to his opponent's body.

#13 Posted by SUNMAN (7239 posts) - - Show Bio

lol

#14 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1578 posts) - - Show Bio

@SUNMAN said:

lol

what's lol ? :D

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