Combat speed of Dragon Ball characters

#1 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

In this study I’ll talk about the speed of DBZ characters, mostly about the speed of characters from saiyan saga. I know there probably are some other threads similar to this one, but I’ve put some effort into this, and I hope it will not be locked.

First I’ll start by exposing a common misunderstanding:

What most people don't understand is that speed of DBZ characters isn't the same as the speed of marvel or DC characters.

When Marvel/DC characters are flying, the longer they fly the faster they'll go, until they reach their top speed, for which it usually takes them at least few seconds,

When DBZ characters are flying, they reach their top speed almost instantly, and then they are losing it the longer they fly.

Take a look at those scans, Goku starts flying extremely fast, but he couldn't hold that same speed for too long

Column Head
  • With Superman for example is opposite, the longer he flies the faster he goes, until he reaches his top speed.

Basically it looks like the speed of DBZ char.=energy/distance

so if a character has energy 100, and the distance is 50, his speed will be 2. But if distance is 2 his speed will be 50. .

This became clear when it took 6 months for Goku to cross 1 000 000 km, which would mean his speed is 64 m/s. And I think we all know for certain, that his combat speed is much better than that. This same Goku whose long distance travel speed was 64 m/s, was so fast during the fight with Piccolo that not even Kami was able to see him. His combat speed was certainly far above the speed of sound.

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Here I will talk about their top speed, which means I’ll be talking about their fighting speed, reaction time and short distance travel.

I have researched dbz universe and came to a conclusion that they have most likely reached light speed somewhere during the saiyan or namek saga.

I based my conclusion on 3 types of evidence: Power scaling, statements, and feats.

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Power scaling (or perhaps I should have called it speed scaling…)

Obviously power scaling is not the most precise method for determining someone’s speed, and is very subjective, however if we use it the right way, it can show us, approximately, how fast they should be.

For example if someone is moving in front of you, and you can’t even see him, I think it is clear that he must be more than 10 times faster than you.

Step one

I’ll start from master Roshi.

He was fast enough to have entire fight scene within one second, he exchanged punches and kicks, they were spiting on each other, then they spent some time thinking, than they had a short conversation, then they played a game etc. and Roshi did all this while he was still holding back. Normal people were unable to see their movements.

After being shot at, Roshi was able to turn around and catch 9 bullets.

Roshi was able to create many after images

Roshi moved his hand so fast it created a wind so strong it blowed away a 70-80kg heavy superhuman and smashed him into a wall.

Kid Goku (21. budokai) , and Namu who were both slower then Roshi were able to jump several km high in the air, a feat which requires a movement of legs much faster than the speed of sound.

Bora who was slower than Roshi was able to trow goku and yacharobe above clouds, which means he can move his hand faster than sound.

Tao Pai Pai was on pair with Roshi, or slightly faster, and he throw a stone pillar 2300 km away, a feat which proves massively hypersonic movement . (more precisely, the initial speed of that pillar must have been around mach 14, and he was faster than a pillar, so his speed must have been around mach 20. link and link , 2 links for you to check my words)

From all of this I think it is safe to assume that Roshi is much faster than the sound.

Step 2

Goku 22nd budokai

Kid Goku on 22 budokai was so much faster than Roshi, that Roshi was unable to see him

Step 3

Goku after mystic water

Then Goku drank mystic water and became many times faster than before.

Tien, who was on pair with Goku before he drank the water, was so slow he was unable to kick Drum, and Goku, after water, was so fast he speed blitzed him. He also became as fast as young king Piccolo, while before he was slower than even the old Piccolo.

And Tien was unable to see his movements.

Step 4

Mr. Popo

Yet even this Goku, who speed-blitzed Drum, and was moving so fast Tien couldn't even see him, was still too slow to even touch mr Popo, and mr Popo was so fast Goku was unable to see his movements.

Step 5

Goku 23rd budokai

23rd budokai Goku was so fast that even Kami, who was vastly superior both to Mr Popo and kid Goku, was unable to see him or Piccolo while they were fighting at top speed.

Step 6

Raditz

And Raditz was much faster than both Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of DBZ.

Step 7

Goku after King Kai training

Nappa was much faster than Raditz, he was even referring to him as a weakling, yet Nappa was unable to land a single punch on Goku, and this was before Goku even started using Kaio Ken.

Normal Kaio Ken doubles your strength, speed, energy durability et cetera and Goku was able to use KK x 4

Now when we calculate all this it becomes clear that we should expect saiyan saga characters to be between 10 000- 100 000 times faster than master Roshi. I can’t give more precise answer than this due to inaccuracy of power scaling method.

So if it is reasonable to say “if someone is moving in front of you, and you can’t even see him, I think it is clear that he must be more than 10 times faster than you”, then approximately this is what power scaling is telling us:

If master Roshi is around mach 10, then Goku 22nd budokai should have been around Mach 100, Goku after water mach 1 000, mr. Popo mach 10 000, Goku 23th budokai mach 100 000 and saiyan saga characters around mach 1 000 000.

Statements

Mr Popo stated how he can move faster than lightning.

I have heard people calling this a lie or a hyperbole, but when someone who is massively faster than a character who is massively faster than a massively hypersonic character states he is faster than lightning, why would we assume he is lying or hyperbolizing?

If I say I’m so hungry I could eat a horse, that’s clearly a hyperbole, but if someone bigger than Hulk says the same thing, even without providing a feat, I would believe him, the same way I believe Mr. Popo when he says he is faster than lightning.

Speed of lightning:

http://www.animevice.com/forums/off-topic/32/how-fast-is-lightning/322770/

Feats

And finnaly the most important way of reasoning, by showing feats.

First I’ll show the speed of their beams

Akira was once asked, how long Gokus power pole can get, and he aswered, since it reached the moon, it can strech at least 380 000 km. This clearly shows that in Akira's mind dragon ball earth has the same or the simmilar relative position to it's moon as our planet does to our moon.

link

It took only few moments for a simple beam from Piccolo to reach the moon.

The Moon is 1.3 light seconds away, and it would take additional 1.3 seconds for a light from the explosion to return back to the earth, which means this beam from Piccolo was at very least close to the speed of light.

Master Roshi did the same thing, it only took him slightly longer.

There are many other scans on which you can see beams leaving the earths atmosphere right after they were fired such is this one, but these are less important for our current discussion

After you have seen how their beams are most likely near light speed fast, I’ll compare the speed of their bodies with the speed of their beams

Raditz dodged a beam, and he started to move after the beam was only few meters away from him.

We have seen Piccolo destroying a moon in matter of seconds, now we see Raditz dodging an attack from piccolo which was even called LIGHT of death. So if a guy who most likely can fire a beam as fast as light fires his best beam, which even has the word light in it's name, why would we assume that beam wasn't as fast as light?

The beam was 2-3m away from him before he started to move, and he moved 20-30 cm, which puts him at minimum 0.1c speed, if that beam was as fast as light.

And there are countless similar feats

From this scan you can clearly see how Raditz is almost as fast as Gokus beam.

Take a look at right panel of a first scan, Goku has fired his beam and the beam is around 5-6 m away from the ground. on the next panel you can see the beam is around 0.5 m from the ground and Raditz has moved 4-5 m from the place where he used to be. this proves they are nearly as fast as their beams. on the second scan you can see Raditz is running from a beam, but he can't maintain the speed for to long so he stops and tanks the beam.

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Goku was running away from a beam, and Guldo stopped the time and you can clearly see how Krillin and Gohan are at least as fast as their beams.

There are countless feats like these in dbz

Now, is it possible that it took several minutes or hours for Piccolos beam to reach the moon?

Sure, but is that what most likely happened? Just by looking at scan anyone can see it is absolutely unlikely that it took a long time, why would piccolo be standing there with his hand up for few hours after fireng the beam, while Gohan is rampaging behind him?

Is it possible that they slow down their beams when they fight?

Sure, but why the hell would they do that?

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These three lines of reasoning are all pointing at the same conclusion, power scaling statements and feats, and just the way it takes three legs to support the stool these three arguments taken together support the theory that dbz characters most likely reached light speed somewhere during the saiyan or namek saga.

Bonus, problem

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We all know that the power of the impact depends on the speed and mass.

( Force = mass x acceleration)

And kinetic energy (E = 1/2mv^2)

Tien has more than enough power to destroy the moon, we know this because he is more powerful then proven moon busters. And Tien used his full powered attack against Nappa, he released his entire energy at Nappa and we know that because Tien died after using this attack.

Nappa was directly hit by his beam and he was undamaged.

Nappa was also able to endure attacks from Piccolo who actually destroyed the Moon.

Roshi who destroyed the moon, said he can’t do anything against him but pray, and Piccolo also had similar statements.

  • Conclusion: Nappa has Moon+ durability.

And yet KK Goku one shoted him.

So if goku is only hypersonic as most of you think, how can he build enough force to take down someone who has moon+ durability? Obviously he would need much more speed than mach 5- 25, incomparably more, to take down someone like Nappa.

Vegeta was over 100 times more powerful then moon busters, and he was most likely able to destroy the Earth, yet he was unable to hurt Recome, and Goku one shoted him to.

Also it should be noted that during the fight they can't see each other by looking at them normally, they have to look for the ki energy their bodies are emiting, which is also indicating that they have reached levels close to the speed of light.

Also it should be noted that the same energy they use to vaporize moons, they also use to boost their speed, which clearly proves that they had more than enough energy to move near the speed of light , even before the saiyan saga.

Overall summary

Saiyan saga characters were most likely able to fight at relativistic speed because:

1. They are almost as fast as their beams were, which were approximately as fast as light.

2. They are much faster than Popo who was stated to be faster than lightning.

3. Roshi is mach 10+, yet he was too slow even to see 22nd budokai Goku, Tien who was on pair with 22nd budokai Goku was too slow to even see Goku's movement after he drank mystic water, Goku (after water) was too slow to see or touch mr Popo, who is inferior to Kami. Piccolo and Goku (23rd budokai) were fighting so fast they were invisible even to Kami, yet Raditz was faster than both of them combined.

Raditz would be a low tier saiyan saga character.

In other words saiyan saga characters are massively faster than characters which are massively faster than characters which are massively faster than massively hypersonic characters.

4. Saiyan saga characters are moon+ busters, and to destroy the moon you would need 600 billion strongest nuclear bombs. They use that same energy to boost their speed, so it should be obvious that they have enough energy to reach relativistic speeds.

5. They have moon+ level durability, yet they can hurt each other with their fists, again indicating their relativistic speed, because how powerful the punch will be mostly depends on how fast their fists are moving.. <even taking into account the possible difference between kinetic energy and ki energy>

Personally I don't know for any other character, out of any other comic book, who's relativistic speed is backed up by so much evidence, yet still rejected by so many people.

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And for the end one cool feat, This is a feat of Goku and Vegeta having whole fight scene in one heart beat.As we all know kaioken lasts for heartbeat.

After saiyan saga

During the saiyan saga, Goku had to use KKx3 to surpass Vegeta's speed, and on Namek Vegeta was much faster than he was on Earth. Vegeta also recieved another power up after he recovered from the wounds caused by Zarbon, but he was still massively slower than Burter, who was able to fly faster than Vegeta can throw a ball.

However, Goku who was training under 100G gravity became so fast, that even without kaioken, Burter and Jeice were unable to touch him.

After recovery, Goku received another power up, but even with KKx20 he was still much slower than Frieza was, at 70% of his power.

This Goku was able to escape from a paralyzing light, the moment it exploded.

I personally don't think this feat undoubtedly proves that he was FTL as some like to claim, but it certainly indicates so, and it is perfectly consistent with my theory.

After Goku went SSJ, he became faster than Frieza at 100 % of power.

So the story goes on, pretty much in the same direction, each new villain was massively faster, stronger, more powerful and more durable than the previous one, and heroes would surpass and beat all of them.

SSJ Goku ( on namek)<Mecha Frieza<<< SSJ Trunks<<<SSJ Goku(pre android saga)<<<<<SSJ Goku (android saga)<SSJVegeta android saga<<Android 18<Android 17<<<<Cell (after absorbing people)</=Android 16<<<<Cell (after absorbing 17)<<<<Vegeta (after training in time chamber)<<<<Perfect Cell<<<<Super Perfect Cell<<SSJ2 Gohan<<<<<SSJ2 Goku</=SSJ2 Majin Vegeta<<<Fat Majin Buu<<SSJ3 Goku<<Mystic Gohan<<<<Buuhan<<<<<<<<SSJ Vegeto<<<<<SSJ3 Vegeto

One thing I often hear is that it takes long time for DBZ characters to charge up their energy beams, which is actually only true when they're going all out.

When Cell fired his full powered kamehameha at SSJ2 Gohan, Gohan waited for the beam to come close to him before he even started charging his kamehameha.

We have seen that their energy beams were almost as fast as light even before the namek saga, and it is very likely that the speed of their beams increased over time. We know for a fact that the speed of their bodies has been increasing exponentially, and we also know that the speed of their energy beams relatively to the speed of their body remained more or less the same, which makes it very likely that the speed of their energy beams increased over time. But even if their beams remained as slow as they were during the saiyan saga, that would still mean they are near light speed fast, and Gohan charged up his planet+ level kamehameha in a time it took for a beam to travel couple of meters, which would be around 1 nanosecond.

One more misconception is that DBZ characters somehow become immovable while they are charging their energy beams, which is also not true

Here Goku used KKx20 to fight against Frieza, and he charged up his kamehameha while simultaneously punching , kicking and dodging. And KK lasts for a heart beat, so all of this happened within a time frame a single heart beat.

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#2 Posted by pIayer4 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

(First Post) Nice read I enjoyed it. I was wondering can you post the scan when they say Kaioken last one heartbeat because I do not remember it and can not find a scan.

#3 Posted by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@pIayer4 said:

I was wondering can you post the scan when they say Kaioken last one heartbeat because I do not remember it and can not find a scan.

It is up there,

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#4 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (8086 posts) - - Show Bio

Excellent study, bro.

I was always one of the few that will boldly say Goku has what it takes to take on ol' Supes.

#5 Posted by Poontanglife (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein: Nice read, cool information.

Im also one of the people who thinks that Goku can take Supes, well at least after Goku achieves SSJ.

The thing with DB is that you really have to do as you did - use powerscaling, imagination and approximations because Dragon Ball is possibly the comic ive read (and watched) with most PIS, Like the fact that Goku have an approximate power level on around 400 million in SSJ3 (some say as high as 1 billion), but if that was true the whole galaxy would be in danger when they fought... which it never really is, not the galaxy or even solar system only single planets.

I mean if the DB characters could destroy a moon when they had a power level on approx. 120, then a character with at least a 3.5 million times more fire power should be rather devastating throwing Ki blasts around all over the place.

Anyway, ive always imagined that if Goku existed in the DC/Marvel universes he would be one of the absolute strongest characters, the problem is that he lives in the DB universe where Akira Toriyama cant decide how strong he wants them.

And wasnt Goku able to do the same trip (the 1 million km, 6 months one) in 3 hours when he was done with his training?

#6 Posted by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

Excellent study, bro.

I was always one of the few that will boldly say Goku has what it takes to take on ol' Supes.

Take on and stomp into the ground

#7 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Poontanglife said:

@Mortein:

And wasnt Goku able to do the same trip (the 1 million km, 6 months one) in 3 hours when he was done with his training?

First time he travelled it took him 6 months, and after training it took him 27-28 hours (or perhaps 48 hours, it is debatable)

@Poontanglife said:

@Mortein: Nice read, cool information.

Like the fact that Goku have an approximate power level on around 400 million in SSJ3 (some say as high as 1 billion), but if that was true the whole galaxy would be in danger when they fought... which it never really is, not the galaxy or even solar system only single planets.

I mean if the DB characters could destroy a moon when they had a power level on approx. 120, then a character with at least a 3.5 million times more fire power should be rather devastating throwing Ki blasts around all over the place.

We don't know what was his PL after Frieza saga, but SSJ3 Goku certainly has bigger PL than 400 million.

SSJ1 Goku had PL 150 000 000, and after that:

SSJ Goku ( on namek)<Mecha Frieza<<< SSJ Trunks<<<SSJ Goku(pre android saga)<<<<<SSJ Goku (android saga)<SSJVegeta android saga<<Android 18<Android 17<<<<Cell (after absorbing people)</=Android 16<<<<Cell (after absorbing 17)<<<<Vegeta (after training in time chamber)<<<<Perfect Cell<<<<Super Perfect Cell<<SSJ2 Gohan<<<<<SSJ2 Goku</=SSJ2 Majin Vegeta<<<Fat Majin Buu<<SSJ3 Goku

But that doesn't mean they can or should be able to destroy galaxies.

there are hundreds of billions solar systems in a single galaxy, If you are billions of times more powerful than a moon buster, you might be able to destroy one solar system.

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#8 Posted by Poontanglife (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein:@Mortein said:

@Poontanglife said:

@Mortein:

And wasnt Goku able to do the same trip (the 1 million km, 6 months one) in 3 hours when he was done with his training?

First time he travelled it took him 6 months, and after training it took him 27-28 hours (or perhaps 48 hours, it is debatable)

Ah right, thanks for info.

@Mortein said:

@Poontanglife said:

@Mortein: Nice read, cool information.

Like the fact that Goku have an approximate power level on around 400 million in SSJ3 (some say as high as 1 billion), but if that was true the whole galaxy would be in danger when they fought... which it never really is, not the galaxy or even solar system only single planets.

I mean if the DB characters could destroy a moon when they had a power level on approx. 120, then a character with at least a 3.5 million times more fire power should be rather devastating throwing Ki blasts around all over the place.

We don't know what was his PL after Frieza saga, but SSJ3 Goku certainly has bigger PL than 400 million.

SSJ1 Goku had PL 150 000 000, and after that:

SSJ Goku ( on namek)<Mecha Frieza<<< SSJ Trunks<<<SSJ Goku(pre android saga)<<<<<SSJ Goku (android saga)<SSJVegeta android saga<<Android 18<Android 17<<<<Cell (after absorbing people)</=Android 16<<<<Cell (after absorbing 17)<<<<Vegeta (after training in time chamber)<<<<Perfect Cell<<<<Super Perfect Cell<<SSJ2 Gohan<<<<<SSJ2 Goku</=SSJ2 Majin Vegeta<<<Fat Majin Buu<<SSJ3 Goku

Yeah, they get pretty god damn strong.

#9 Posted by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mortein: Cool dude.
#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17968 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein: Wow, that's an excellent observation and props to putting so much time and thought into it so it didn't just turn into a flame thread.

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#11 Posted by jloneblackheart (5483 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't deny they have great speed, but there is a lot of speculation in this. Once you go to the multiplying of power levels on scales that were never explained, only compared with the power levels of other characters, you can only end up with ridiculous numbers in the end, especially with how fast and how much those power levels grow in the series.

For example, assuming energy attacks are as fast as light just because they have light in the name. Energy is energy. Light is light. If it was a light attack, it would do no harm. Energy does not travel as fast as light. Let's say I could throw a ball as fast as light. I would still need to move my body as fast as I could before what I threw could reach that speed. With most fighting techniques, you have to move before hand to dodge. Since Raditz is faster than Piccolo, he should be able to easily pick up the subtle movements of Piccolo's preparation for his blast, and move accordingly. This doesn't say to me that he is faster than light.

Undoubtedly, Piccolo blew up the Moon, and I believe rather quickly. But there is no time on panel. If it took 2 seconds, like you say, that's light speed. If it took a minute, that's about 4,200 MPH, WAY less than light speed.

Not to say DBZ characters aren't fast, it's just there is no clear way of telling, no matter how hard you try. There are few examples that give actual speed.

One for example is Snake Way. Snake Way is said to be 1,000,000 km. After his training with King Kai, it was said he could travel the distance in two days. This comes out to about 20,800 km an hour, or 13,000MPH - about Mach18. This is after the battle with Raditz, who you say is light speed, and Goku was far beyond Raditz at this point. This is one of those rare times they give you distance and time.

At the same time, PoPo traveled with Bulma to the other end of the Earth in the blink of an eye before the Namek saga.

So if it is reasonable to say “if someone is moving in front of you, and you can’t even see him, I think it is clear that he must be more than 10 times faster than you”, then approximately this is what power scaling is telling us:

A car is ten times faster than me and I can see it. This is assumption. If anything, ten times is too low. I'm no scientist or anything, so I can't tell you how fast someone must be moving before you cannot see them, but by the way the power scales work is not by sight anyway. It's all by power level. Almost always, power level increases speed and if a character has a higher level than another, chances are he is faster as well (there are exceptions, like ascended super Saiyan). Because they cannot see each other doesn't indicate faster than light speed. That's perception. I can't follow a gnat or a mosquito buzzing around my head, but that doesn't mean it is faster than light. It's simply moving faster than I can follow.

Again, this is all based on real life physics, which are assumed physics, in a unrealistic world with floating cats, talking animals and dinosaurs among humans. Speed does not have to have anything to do with their power, or vice versa. They use a energy that simply does not exist in real life - chi (well, at least not like it does here, I've never met someone who fired an energy blast).

I'm not saying you are wrong and I believe that they are probably faster than most give them credit for, but it is simply impossible to prove, or at a minimum, completely inconsistent. It's all based on what someone did once and the ever growing power levels that jump from like a thousand in the beginning to a million at Frieza, which is in the books about a year and a half tops. A + B = C

People that like Dragon Ball (like myself) will continue to enjoy the series and people who don't can never be convinced that the characters are on par with Marvel or DC, who have stated stats and feats (plus decades of history and story). There is no way to prove their speed and you will rarely be able to convince someone on either side who is faster/stronger/etc.

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#12 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart said:

I don't deny they have great speed, but there is a lot of speculation in this. Once you go to the multiplying of power levels on scales that were never explained, only compared with the power levels of other characters, you can only end up with ridiculous numbers in the end, especially with how fast and how much those power levels grow in the series.

I wasn't even talking about power levels.

For example, assuming energy attacks are as fast as light just because they have light in the name. Energy is energy. Light is light. If it was a light attack, it would do no harm. Energy does not travel as fast as light.

But I didn't assume energy attacks are as fast as a light just because they have light in it's name. Piccolo whose beams can reach the moon in most likely matter of seconds fired his best beam at Raditz, who according to power scaling and statements should be near light speed, and he just barely dodged it. Now when we add to all this that the beam was actually called light of dead, then it becomes clear that most likely, that beam was as fast as light, or at least near the speed of light.

I think you don't really know much about light, and I don't know enough to educate others, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

Photons have energy, and they are traveling at the speed of light, so i guess energy can travel at the speed of light lol

and even visible light can hurt you,

But this is not really important.

Let's say I could throw a ball as fast as light. I would still need to move my body as fast as I could before what I threw could reach that speed. With most fighting techniques, you have to move before hand to dodge. Since Raditz is faster than Piccolo, he should be able to easily pick up the subtle movements of Piccolo's preparation for his blast, and move accordingly. This doesn't say to me that he is faster than light.

This is not aim dodging, since Piccolo fired a beam directly at him, before Raditz started to move.

Undoubtedly, Piccolo blew up the Moon, and I believe rather quickly. But there is no time on panel. If it took 2 seconds, like you say, that's light speed. If it took a minute, that's about 4,200 MPH, WAY less than light speed.

Well if it took an entire minute, which most likely didn't, that would mean it's speed was 46 times slower than a light

Not to say DBZ characters aren't fast, it's just there is no clear way of telling, no matter how hard you try. There are few examples that give actual speed.

One for example is Snake Way. Snake Way is said to be 1,000,000 km. After his training with King Kai, it was said he could travel the distance in two days. This comes out to about 20,800 km an hour, or 13,000MPH - about Mach18. This is after the battle with Raditz, who you say is light speed, and Goku was far beyond Raditz at this point. This is one of those rare times they give you distance and time.

At the same time, PoPo traveled with Bulma to the other end of the Earth in the blink of an eye before the Namek saga.

Their long distance travel speed <<<<<<<<<their fight speed, I explained this in the first part of my first post here.

At the same time, PoPo traveled with Bulma to the other end of the Earth in the blink of an eye before the Namek saga.

Wasn't that a teleportation?

So if it is reasonable to say “if someone is moving in front of you, and you can’t even see him, I think it is clear that he must be more than 10 times faster than you”, then approximately this is what power scaling is telling us:

A car is ten times faster than me and I can see it. This is assumption. If anything, ten times is too low. I'm no scientist or anything, so I can't tell you how fast someone must be moving before you cannot see them, but by the way the power scales work is not by sight anyway.

I said more than 10 times faster because I wanted to be sure I'm saying the truth..

Roshi was able to see and even catch bullets which are traveling faster than sound, but unable to see Goku who is 1000 time bigger than a bullet.

thanks for commenting

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#13 Posted by Poontanglife (66 posts) - - Show Bio

DBZ makes my head hurt, and im even a fanboy. Someday im sitting down and writing a well thought mail to Akira Toriyama making him explain just what the hell his characters can do.

There are so much stupid writing that its laughable, its like his forgetting everything he writes after he writes it, which its annoying, it would be okay if Dragon Ball - like DC and Marvel had different writers.

Example: when Goku and Krillin is being trained by Roshi for the very first time, Goku shows he can move a 30 ton rock like 20 meters in a single push, at that point he had a powerlevel on about 70. By that logic, he should be able to lift FAR, FAR more than we are shown he can by the time he is dead and is training with King Kai after the Cell saga, i cant remember the exact amount, but wasnt it like 15 tons on each arm + legs? That was without being SSJ in any form, but still he have a base power level on at LEAST 50 million 700000 times stronger than he was when he pushed 30 tons.

#14 Posted by jloneblackheart (5483 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein:

I wasn't even talking about power levels.

Then what exactly is power scaling? In DBZ, power levels and speed are directly related. You assigned arbitrary numbers to assume greater speeds for characters at higher power levels. These values assigned have no merit besides you choosing them. That is their only reference. You stopped posting after the Saiyan saga, but you could just keep going and going and going with the same thing, multiplying speeds even further until they are omnipresent. It doesn't change the fact that their are simply no ways to gauge their speeds except early in the series and then compare that up the line from slower to faster characters until you reach ridiculous speeds they probably cannot attain.

But I didn't assume energy attacks are as fast as a light just because they have light in it's name. Piccolo whose beams can reach the moon in most likely matter of seconds fired his best beam at Raditz, who according to power scaling and statements should be near light speed, and he just barely dodged it. Now when we add to all this that the beam was actually called light of dead, then it becomes clear that most likely, that beam was as fast as light, or at least near the speed of light.
I think you don't really know much about light, and I don't know enough to educate others, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrumPhotons have energy, and they are traveling at the speed of light, so i guess energy can travel at the speed of light lol
and even visible light can hurt you,

Key words "most likely." Again, an assumption. It's exactly the same as "he barely dodged it." You are assuming speed based on a static image. There is absolutely no way to determine time in a still panel unless it is stated.

I know enough about light to not need a wikipedia article. The electromagnetic spectrum is a fancy term for light at all it's wavelengths. We can only see visible light, which cannot harm you unless you are referring to your retinas being burned. Visible light must be magnified or amplified to damage you, such as through glass or a laser. At other wavelengths, light is harmful to biological material because of radiation, something not a factor in 'chi' energy.

Photons have energy because everything has energy. Energy and mass are the same thing in different forms. The thing that makes light unique is the extremely small amount of mass. That is how light is able to attain the great speed it does, because mass slows everything down. If light had sufficient energy, everything would be light powered. Consider coronal mass ejections, explosions from the sun that cause high energy particles to be ejected into space at incredible velocities. This energy could do damage, but it travels nowhere near the speed of light.

This is not aim dodging, since Piccolo fired a beam directly at him, before Raditz started to move.

Again, this is a still frame. How could you really tell he hadn't begun to move? He could dodge a punch at a closer range, and Piccolo effectively had to throw his arm out in a similar manner to fire the attack. So why wouldn't he be able to dodge it regardless of the speed of the beam?

Wasn't that a teleportation?

It never said one way or another, but why would PoPo need his flying carpet to teleport? But, who knows. Either way, this example was in favor or your argument.

Also I forgot to mention in my previous post that my copy does not have Burter mentioning light speed.

Again, I think their speed is underestimated by the average comic fan or DBZ hater, but proving it is a nearly impossible matter. There is no frame of reference besides this guy is faster than that guy who is faster than that guy etc. Plus it's inconsistently written. The only way this could be proven is if Toriyama just came out and said "yeah, they are way faster than light."

I don't think it was meant to be analyze in this way (even more so than comics), its just supposed to be read and enjoyed for what it is and if people are going to hate let them.

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#15 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart said:

@Mortein:

I wasn't even talking about power levels.

Then what exactly is power scaling? In DBZ, power levels and speed are directly related. You assigned arbitrary numbers to assume greater speeds for characters at higher power levels. These values assigned have no merit besides you choosing them. That is their only reference. You stopped posting after the Saiyan saga, but you could just keep going and going and going with the same thing, multiplying speeds even further until they are omnipresent. It doesn't change the fact that their are simply no ways to gauge their speeds except early in the series and then compare that up the line from slower to faster characters until you reach ridiculous speeds they probably cannot attain.

I was looking at what must be minimal speed difference between characters for them to be able to perform their feats.

For example, 22nd budokai Goku was so much faster than Roshi, that Roshi wasn't even able to see him. Obviously that means he must have been much more that 10 times faster than Roshi, according to that feat. The same thing happened when Goku was unable to see Popo's movements, or when Kami was unable to see Teen Goku and Piccolo.

At the end I saw that they should be massively beyond the speed of sound, probably even near the speed of light. I don't thing this proves that they really are nearly as fast as light, but it sure strengthens my theory.

Key words "most likely." Again, an assumption. It's exactly the same as "he barely dodged it."

Yes, I said at the very beginning

"I don't know how fast DBZ characters are, I haven’t found a single feat from which we could calculate their top speed and be absolutely certain we got it right, however I have researched dbz universe and came to a conclusion that they have most likely reached light speed somewhere during the saiyan or namek saga."

I'm not saying I'm certain, I'm saying they have most likely reached light speed somewhere during saiyan or namek saga.

I haven't made this thread to convert anyone into believing the same thing as I do, I just wanted to explain to others why I think my belief is reasonable.

I know enough about light to not need a wikipedia article. The electromagnetic spectrum is a fancy term for light at all it's wavelengths. We can only see visible light, which cannot harm you unless you are referring to your retinas being burned. Visible light must be magnified or amplified to damage you, such as through glass or a laser. At other wavelengths, light is harmful to biological material because of radiation, something not a factor in 'chi' energy.

Photons have energy because everything has energy. Energy and mass are the same thing in different forms. The thing that makes light unique is the extremely small amount of mass. That is how light is able to attain the great speed it does, because mass slows everything down. If light had sufficient energy, everything would be light powered. Consider coronal mass ejections, explosions from the sun that cause high energy particles to be ejected into space at incredible velocities. This energy could do damage, but it travels nowhere near the speed of light.

Sorry if I was arrogant.

But I don't see why is any of this really important, since we don't know anything about what ki really is.

This is not aim dodging, since Piccolo fired a beam directly at him, before Raditz started to move.

Again, this is a still frame. How could you really tell he hadn't begun to move? He could dodge a punch at a closer range, and Piccolo effectively had to throw his arm out in a similar manner to fire the attack. So why wouldn't he be able to dodge it regardless of the speed of the beam?

I don't really see what are you traying to say here.

It is clear that the beam was around 3 m away from him and it was flying directly at him, and he dodged it, which means he must be nearly as fast as the beam, there is not really anything to discuss here, other than what was the speed of the beam.

Also I have posted many other images up there which are undoubtedly proving that DBZ characters are nearly as fast as their beams are.

Wasn't that a teleportation?

It never said one way or another, but why would PoPo need his flying carpet to teleport? But, who knows. Either way, this example was in favor or your argument.

Also I forgot to mention in my previous post that my copy does not have Burter mentioning light speed.

Thanks about this, I've said it myself, it is probably fake.

Again, I think their speed is underestimated by the average comic fan or DBZ hater, but proving it is a nearly impossible matter. There is no frame of reference besides this guy is faster than that guy who is faster than that guy etc. Plus it's inconsistently written. The only way this could be proven is if Toriyama just came out and said "yeah, they are way faster than light."

I don't think it was meant to be analyze in this way (even more so than comics), its just supposed to be read and enjoyed for what it is and if people are going to hate let them.

When someone asks me how fast DBZ characters are, my answer is always we do not know.

But if we have to guess, than by far the best theory, backed up with most evidence would be that they have reached light speed somewhere during saiyan or namek saga. And EOS DBZ characters such as Buu or SSJ3 Goku are massively faster than saiyan or namek saga characters.

I think that with current amount of data we have this is the best prediction we can make, until Akira tells us they are mach 50 or mach 50 billion.

So how fast do you think Goku was, during 23rd budokai, namek saga and Buu saga?

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#16 Posted by jloneblackheart (5483 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mortein What I'm trying to say about the special beam cannon. Let's assume for discussions sake that the track is indeed light speed. Now, we know Raditz is faster than Piccolo. Raditz can easily dodge Piccolo's punches at an even closer range than the attack was fired. So why can't Raditz begin dodging while Piccolo is in the process of sending the attack? Maybe is is not faster than the beam, but he is far faster than the person firing it.

I do agree that it seems ridiculous that they didn't reach light speed in short distances by the end of the series. I don't know if I could pinpoint when though. They are definitely faster than sound before the Saiyans even came. It drives me nuts when people say Iron Man could take on Goku as a Super Saiyan, but I think Superman is out of his league not because of strength or speed, but because of durability.

I'm in the process of rereading the manga and updating pages (mostly supporting characters) and I'll come back here if I find any more speed evidence.
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#17 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart said:

@Mortein What I'm trying to say about the special beam cannon. Let's assume for discussions sake that the track is indeed light speed. Now, we know Raditz is faster than Piccolo. Raditz can easily dodge Piccolo's punches at an even closer range than the attack was fired. So why can't Raditz begin dodging while Piccolo is in the process of sending the attack? Maybe is is not faster than the beam, but he is far faster than the person firing it.

Yes Raditz should be able to do that, but he didn't, piccolo probably caught him off guard.. The beam was fired directly at him, we can see him and we can see a beam few meters away from him. It is not hard to calculate that, if that beam was as fast as light then Raditz is at least 0.1x the speed of light.

Kid Goku dodged laser, but this was just aim dodging, because we can't see the beam flying at goku before he dodged it.

This is aim dodging:

I do agree that it seems ridiculous that they didn't reach light speed in short distances by the end of the series. I don't know if I could pinpoint when though. They are definitely faster than sound before the Saiyans even came. It drives me nuts when people say Iron Man could take on Goku as a Super Saiyan, but I think Superman is out of his league not because of strength or speed, but because of durability. I'm in the process of rereading the manga and updating pages (mostly supporting characters) and I'll come back here if I find any more speed evidence.

Ok, great.

What makes you think their durability is low?

Also, this is a feat from which you can see they are almost as fast as their beams are:

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#18 Edited by Poontanglife (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart said:

It drives me nuts when people say Iron Man could take on Goku as a Super Saiyan, but I think Superman is out of his league not because of strength or speed, but because of durability.

Lol, sorry.. not durable you say? Okay lets make a quick comparison - Freiza survived a planet exploding - he went to earth and got complety pwned by Trunks (Trunks sliced him up, with no effort) - Goku lands on earth - Trunks cant even slice Gokus finger.

Trunks sliced a planet tanker - not only that, but he also killed King Cold with a small ki blask. King Cold is confirmed by Akira Toriyama to be stronger than Freiza after this Trunks fails at even hurting Gokus finger. Now this was when Goku just turned SSJ, he becomes many, many times stronger, faster and durable later on.

Even when he was a child at the very start of DB, bullets couldnt penetrate (heh hehe heh) him.

#19 Posted by jloneblackheart (5483 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mortein @Poontanglife I'm not saying they aren't durable, I just don't think they are as durable as Superman.
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#20 Posted by jasongil333 (12 posts) - - Show Bio

ily <3 i always hate dbz fangirls but you.....you my friend actually put time and effort into this, you have real facts, rather than "goku's a boss, goku wont give up, etc"

#21 Posted by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@jasongil333 said:

ily <3 i always hate dbz fangirls but you.....you my friend actually put time and effort into this, you have real facts, rather than "goku's a boss, goku wont give up, etc"

truth is, I dislike most DBZ fans as well.

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#22 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11269 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein said:

`Kid Goku dodged laser, but this was just aim dodging, because we can't see the beam flying at goku before he dodged it.

This is aim dodging:

He "dodges" the laser, however is caught by a robot hand. Does that mean the robot is faster than light?

#23 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supreme Marvel said:

@Mortein said:

`Kid Goku dodged laser, but this was just aim dodging, because we can't see the beam flying at goku before he dodged it.

This is aim dodging:

He "dodges" the laser, however is caught by a robot hand. Does that mean the robot is faster than light?

I was explaining the difference between aim dodging and real dodging.

I was saying that kid goku is not faster than laser.

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#24 Posted by TheEd (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Now, If we just had any method of deducing what their base speed and power is...

#25 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein: good points. but still lack quantifications, which is the biggest DBZ problem. i think i can provide a minimum quantification to DBZ reflex speed. and i won't use PL which is debatable that provide proportional speed as it do to raw power, i will go only by feats of speedblitz.

the speed of sight is 0.05 second, if someone can speedblitz a normal human his time reaction will be at least 0.05 second and i say at least, because that's the minimum time frame of an eye to perceive something.

the quickest kick ever recorded until now has time reaction of 0.3 second. that means that the quickest kick of a normal human is 6 times slower than sight. if someone has to blitz a normal human he should be 6 times faster than normal to achieve the least least speed for a kick blitz.

my calculations will be based on direct feats and no powerscaling, no PL and no hyperbols, just canon feats, but my calculations won't give the right speed of DBZ characters, it will give a speed less than the real speed of DBZ characters, but at least it's better to have a minimum cantification to be based on, than actual assumptions. as i said my calculation will give speed less than DBZ real speed, because of those points :

  • i will be based only on speedblitz feats, but DBZ speed growth has also happened in other feats where there is no blitz.
  • i will be using the lowest speed of blitz, which is the limit of time frame sight.
  • i will be using the speed of a kick which is normally faster than jumping, running and moving entire body that is necessary for speedblitz

okey, now we know, as i explained, that for someone to blitz o normal person he must be faster than his sight, meaning he should be 6 times faster normal human. if character A can blitz character B, that means at least A is 6 times faster than B. that means if B has time reaction of 0.3 second, A will have time reaction of 0.05 second, if character C can blitz A, then C has time reaction of 0.05 / 6 = 0.008333 second.

now let's start by Krilin and Roshi, they showed impressive feat of time reaction, where in 1 second, they moved several steps, exchanged sevral punches and kicks, exchanged words, and stopped to think for 1/5 second, it would be save to estimate their time reaction at 0.01 second.

Roshi was able after that to blitz Krilin, that makes him have time reaction at least of 0.001666 second.

at 22nd Budokai, Goku moved so fast Roshi couldn't see him, that makes Goku have at least time reaction of 0.00027777 second

Ten Chin Han who was equal to Goku at 22nd Budokai in speed, was not able to see Goku's movement at King Piccolo saga. that makes Goku has at least time reaction of 0.00004269 second

Yet even this Goku was too slow to even touch mr Popo, and mr Popo was so fast Goku was unable to see his movements. that makes Mr. Popo at least with time reaction of 7.716x10^(-6) second

23rd budokai Goku and Piccolo were so fast not even Kami who is much faster than Popo was able to see them. that means Goku and Piccolo had time reaction better than 1.286x10^(-6) second

Raditz was blitzing both Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of DBZ. that make Raditz with time reaction better than 2.1433x10^(-7) second

Nappa was much faster than Raditz, but Goku after King Kai's training was able easily to blitz Nappa, that makes Goku without Kaioken has time reaction better than 3.5722x10^(-8) second

Vegeta who surpassed Goku's speed without Kaioken, after he recovered from his fight with Goku, had became faster, but was easily blitzed by Burter. that makes Burter have time reaction better than 5.9537x10^(-9) second

Goku who was training under 100G gravity became so fast, that even without kaioken, he easily blitzed Burter. that make Goku have time reaction better than 9.90229x10^(-10) second

Piccolo after King Kai's training and Nail's power up, had become at least as equal as Goku. when he fought 3rd form Frieza, Piccolo stated that his speciality is speed, and Goku stated he can't beat Freiza at that level with his initial Namek level. and Frieza blitzed Piccolo, that makes 3rd form Frieza have time reaction better than 1.6538x10^(-10) second

Gohan matched Frieza in power and speed after getting angry, but he and all the others including Vegeta (who powered up again and became the strongest of them), were blitzed by Frieza 4th and final form, that makes Frieza at final from have time reaction better than 2.7563x10^(-11) second

Trunks moved so fast to dodge Frieza's attack, Frieza didn't see him getting behind him far a way on a hill. that makes Tranks have time reaction better than 4.59393x10^(-12) second

Android 17 is stronger than Trunks, and was blitzed by Imperfect Cell, that makes Imperfet Cell have time reaction better than 7.6565x10^(-13) second

now, skipping to gohan vs perfect Cell, Gohan was able to blitz Perfect Cell easily, that makes Gohan at SSJ2 have time reaction better than 1.27609x10^(-13) second

so just at the end of Cell Saga, SSJ2 Gohan had far beyond 0.1 picosecond reaction time. and if we keep going to Buu saga, time reaction will be greater. and just to remind you, that this is not the real time reaction, beause the real one is far far beyond this.

the likes of Superman, Superboy, Gladiator, Hyperion...etc have nanosecond reaction, it's clear now that DBZ fighters are very fast and can not just keep up with the likes of Superman but even surpass them in reaction speed.

#26 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheEd said:

Now, If we just had any method of deducing what their base speed and power is...

read my post above. it doesn't give the exact time reaction, but it gives the minimun quatification that DBZ fighers surpass.

#27 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

I'm not sure if we can call all the feats from these scans a speedblitz, especially not this one.

He just stole something from his hand, it doesn't prove he's 6 times faster than Cell

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#28 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mortein:

no it is a speedblitz, Gohan caught the bag from Cell's hands, without Cell realizing that, he was looking straight at him, if he couldn't see that with his eyes then Gohan did move faster than Cell's sight. maybe it isn't clear. this is the next scan that proves Cell didn't see a thing.

also, let's note that i used as minimum, the fastest kick in the world record. as a basis to my calculation, i didn't use the fastest jump or run which take more time than a kick, and therefore the multiplier factor should be more than 6. also what Gohan did is equivalent to a kick, so it fit exactly with my calculations.

#30 Edited by SonDeathEater (667 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to bring this up but why do you multiply by 10

#31 Edited by Mortein (3316 posts) - - Show Bio

@sondeatheater said:

Sorry to bring this up but why do you multiply by 10

If you are moving in front of me so fast I can't even see you, how many times faster than me, you must be? This is the question I asked myself and I realised that if someone is moving in front of me so fast I can't even see him, he must be more than 10 times faster than me, simply because I can see human sized objects moving 10 times faster than I can.

Do you dissagree with this?

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#32 Posted by 9dragons (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Ignoring ethnocentrism, judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one's own culture. In this english speaking forum, lets put aside our American comic culture and look at the Japanese manga culture with objectively. This topics answer can be found with observation and logic.

DBZ characters have consistent on panel superhuman speeds in both combat, reaction, travel department due to the form of combatant characters utilize in the manga, physical combat. In the plot it is consistently featured that characters compete through speed, strength and reflexes. A battle between characters usually have side line characters debating the speed/strength of the combatants.

A good example of speed would be the cell games. The bystanders couldn't see the combatants fight because their movement exceeded human perception and characters with superhuman perceptions gradually lost view of both Goku and Cell's bout. This illustrate speed shown in DBZ does not remain the same and will get faster or slower depending on the user.. Note both Goku and Cell remained in the bystanders line of sight, the ring, but they could not see Goku and Cell only side effects of their bout. The writer/artist was intentionally done so to show the readers that speed of the characters.

Another example is the speed of energy attacks which showed in various distances from space to a few steps away to be able to hit it's target instantly. Characters destroy distant objects such as the moon during haste times of need fully knowing and reacting that these energy attacks would get the job done before it gets dangerous such as before that giant monkey mauls the character, with on panel evidence.The ability to dodge these light base energy beams after they been fired have been a common showing in this manga, resulting in either life and death.

There is a crucial understanding of dbz manga that non dbz readers need to understand. Characters in dbz have frequent gaping power burst in speed, strength and endurance limited by only power/energy level capacity. Basically there is no clear indication of how fast a character should or should not be because it is not biology that determines this but Ki aka life force/ energy of a character. The closest comic description I could use to describe this is the function of marvel magic with BOOSTING in strength. Zeus is not strong enough but he can use his magic reserves to will himself stronger essentially the same with DBZ characters except their reserves are not incalculable like magic. Characters speed, strength, endurance depends on calculable levels.

#33 Posted by DeathHero61 (7124 posts) - - Show Bio

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