Why Dick Grayson Should be Red Robin

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#1 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by JLDoom (2310 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman said:

Just wrote up a blog post about why Dick Grayson should be the Red Robin (in his original costume) and not the pretender Drake!

Are you Jason Todd? :D

#3 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Dick as Nightwing, him making his own mantle is if anything more respectful to the character than having him rehash his previous persona. As Nightwing he gets to be his own man instead of constantly being in Batman's shadow like the rest of the Robins including Jason whose taken to wearing a bat symbol. Becoming Red Robin would be a tremendous step backward for Dick.

#4 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Not so, Josh. As I point out in the blog post becoming Nightwing again was the biggest step backwards the character could ever have taken. Even though he's been Nightwing for like 30 years the identity is more of a rejection of Robin, a teenage protest, than his own hero. Red Robin would make him a full-on grown-up.

#6 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

You don't know much about Dick Grayson, do you?

#7 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

I know enough.

#8 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

You haven't read the blog post?

#9 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman: It wasn't teenage rebellion, he wanted to be his own man instead of being the back end of "Batman and..." How would going back to the person he was when he was 12 be more mature than wanting to be out of his father figure's shadow?

#10 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing is Dick's final destination and superheroic identity.

Though he may have started as Robin and assumed Batman's role as needed (two major times now that I know of), Nightwing is the skin he feels comfortable in and is the role he's created for himself.

#11 Posted by richardjohngrayson (444 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

#12 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

I read the blog verbatim and objectively, your points are very off and oddly opinionated. What issues are you basing these conclusions off of?

#13 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, they're opinionated because they're just an opinion :P and I'm not writing in the most serious tone either. I'm a huge Dick Grayson fan and I just feel that Morrison progressed the character (which is pretty hard to do with a guy who's been around for 70 odd years) and took him to a new place. Reading Nightwing now just feels dull and a little pointless. I'm there for Grayson but Nightwing as an identity I think was a useful protest. He needs to move on.@joshmightbe said:

@Hooperman: It wasn't teenage rebellion, he wanted to be his own man instead of being the back end of "Batman and..." How would going back to the person he was when he was 12 be more mature than wanting to be out of his father figure's shadow?

Part of maturity is about the re-acceptance of your childhood self. His rejection of his father-figure manifested as Nightwing and to truly mature he could resolve those identity issues and reclaim the Robin mantle. His acceptance of his original identity and ownership of it but having it also be evolved into Red Robin would indicate a mature hero accepting his identity. Remember Nightwing was originally a vigilante on Krypton. Robin is Dick's only original identity.

#14 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

The name Nightwing originated on Krypton.

Who Nightwing is wholly Dick Grayson.

#15 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman: No people aren't the same at 20 as they are at 12 and "reclaiming" a childhood persona is Not a sign of maturity its regression

#16 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't being hyperbolic there this is actually pretty close to the dictionary definition of regression, if anything I'd say Tim needs to drop the Red Robin title and find his own thing like Dick did to actually fully step into adulthood The Red Robin mantle is a crutch at this point.

#17 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I grew up with Dick as the only Robin and I don't really care much what happens to Jason, Tim and Damian.

#18 Posted by BlackArmor (6149 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

Nightwing is Dick's final destination and superheroic identity.

Though he may have started as Robin and assumed Batman's role as needed (two major times now that I know of), Nightwing is the skin he feels comfortable in and is the role he's created for himself.

This

#19 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

I wasn't being hyperbolic there this is actually pretty close to the dictionary definition of regression, if anything I'd say Tim needs to drop the Red Robin title and find his own thing like Dick did to actually fully step into adulthood The Red Robin mantle is a crutch at this point.

It worked amazingly in the Red Robin solo series directly following Bruce's death; but now that Tim's origin's have been rehashed the continued use of the Red Robin mantel feels as if the character has not moved on at all. He has not shed the identity he used when he was a mere sidekick.

As for Dick taking up Red Robin and leaving Nightwing: No. Dick is Nightwing. His personality is lost behind the cowl of Batman, and he should not have to fall back to an identity created in a non-canon elseworld story to fully accept his relationship to Batman and his past as Robin. Nightwing has become an integral part of the Batman mythos. Not to mention it fits Dick perfectly: he uses the training taught to him by Batman, yet his name is adopted from a "lighter" hero's world (Krypton). It shows that Dick is more social and engrossed with others in the DC Universe than his mentor is.

#20 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@joshmightbe said:

I wasn't being hyperbolic there this is actually pretty close to the dictionary definition of regression, if anything I'd say Tim needs to drop the Red Robin title and find his own thing like Dick did to actually fully step into adulthood The Red Robin mantle is a crutch at this point.

It worked amazingly in the Red Robin solo series directly following Bruce's death; but now that Tim's origin's have been rehashed the continued use of the Red Robin mantel feels as if the character has not moved on at all. He has not shed the identity he used when he was a mere sidekick.

As for Dick taking up Red Robin and leaving Nightwing: No. Dick is Nightwing. His personality is lost behind the cowl of Batman, and he should not have to fall back to an identity created in a non-canon elseworld story to fully accept his relationship to Batman and his past as Robin. Nightwing has become an integral part of the Batman mythos. Not to mention it fits Dick perfectly: he uses the training taught to him by Batman, yet his name is adopted from a "lighter" hero's world (Krypton). It shows that Dick is more social and engrossed with others in the DC Universe than his mentor is.

Red Robin was a success at that point in time for Tim as it was actually a progression of the character, he went out and tried to make his own identity without fully ditching the whole Robin thing.

At the end of the day putting Dick in a Robin suit again, regardless of how independent the role is, will be a step backwards simply because when people think of Robin they think of a sidekick and assistant to Batman. For a lot of people a 'Robin' book would simply seem like Bruce letting his sidekick off the leash for a bit to run around on his own before ultimately running back to Batman for help when the going gets tough.

#21 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13643 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@joshmightbe said:

I wasn't being hyperbolic there this is actually pretty close to the dictionary definition of regression, if anything I'd say Tim needs to drop the Red Robin title and find his own thing like Dick did to actually fully step into adulthood The Red Robin mantle is a crutch at this point.

It worked amazingly in the Red Robin solo series directly following Bruce's death; but now that Tim's origin's have been rehashed the continued use of the Red Robin mantel feels as if the character has not moved on at all. He has not shed the identity he used when he was a mere sidekick.

As for Dick taking up Red Robin and leaving Nightwing: No. Dick is Nightwing. His personality is lost behind the cowl of Batman, and he should not have to fall back to an identity created in a non-canon elseworld story to fully accept his relationship to Batman and his past as Robin. Nightwing has become an integral part of the Batman mythos. Not to mention it fits Dick perfectly: he uses the training taught to him by Batman, yet his name is adopted from a "lighter" hero's world (Krypton). It shows that Dick is more social and engrossed with others in the DC Universe than his mentor is.

these

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#22 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

At first Nightwing may have just been a bit of Teenage rebellion but as Dick matured he made it more than that. If the OP actually knew anything about Dick Grayson they'd know that he has fully embraced his past as Robin, but he has moved on because that's what adults do when they leave childhood behind.

#23 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we leave the childish "you know nothing about Dick Grayson" stuff. It just reminds me of the forum negativity so rampant with fans. Everyone's argument pretty much boils down to "He's Nightwing because he's Nightwing". If there were internet forums in the 80s people would've screamed bloody murder at the thought of anyone else being Robin and Dick being someone else. I think people get too quickly attached. Nightwing is as important as Robin. I think Dick Grayson deserves better. He doesn't even have an HQ, or equipment. Why not give him Damian as a side-kick at least as the dynamic worked so well. Having this 21 year old who throws his uniform on the floor doesn't feel like a real, living, breathing vigilante.

#24 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman said:

Can we leave the childish "you know nothing about Dick Grayson" stuff. It just reminds me of the forum negativity so rampant with fans. Everyone's argument pretty much boils down to "He's Nightwing because he's Nightwing". If there were internet forums in the 80s people would've screamed bloody murder at the thought of anyone else being Robin and Dick being someone else. I think people get too quickly attached. Nightwing is as important as Robin. I think Dick Grayson deserves better. He doesn't even have an HQ, or equipment. Why not give him Damian as a side-kick at least as the dynamic worked so well. Having this 21 year old who throws his uniform on the floor doesn't feel like a real, living, breathing vigilante.

You're right, Dick does deserve better, but there is absolutely nothing stopping DC from improving him in his current role as Nightwing. DC could quite easily make him on par with Bruce in terms of HQ and equipment but they don't simply because (and this has been discussed many times) they don't want a character who will take the limelight away from Bruce.

#25 Edited by Spellca (102 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson is Nightwing. That is that. The blog post didn't make much sense and was pretty much opinions pertaining to something that will never happen.

Besides, Robin is Batman's sidekick. That is how it slices. Damien fills that role and Tim took the role Red Robin out of respect for Jason Todd. Why would Dick go back to being any type of Robin when he is Nightwing - he has progressed beyond the red and yellow mantle to the point where if Batman was to die, Nightwing could be just as effective as a vigilante or a member of the Justice League.

The idea of Nightwing becoming Red Robin would be negating, correct me if I am wrong, 28 years of comic book history. But before someone begins talking about the New 52 erasing years of canon, sending Dick back to the Robin persona would set back so many characters - Batman, Dick, Tim, Jason, Damien, and so on.

You need to understand that in a universe like DC and in a team like the Bat-Family, one does not simple make a change like Dick becoming Robin without nuking one of the comic companies greatest properties.

#26 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman: Jason Todd was Robin for most of the 80s. Grayson became Nightwing in 1984 and had actually abbandoned the Robin title a few months prior to that. So technically someone else already was Robin at that time.

#27 Posted by Spellca (102 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing does deserve better. He should be improved. Once Batman Inc. comes to a close, Nightwing should be expanded upon.

Give him a hideout and show him using his intelligence to create equipment. Set him up with the Outsiders has his own answer to the Titans/Justice League. Bring back Cassandra Cain or Step Brown in the New 52 maybe as proteges to Nightwing.

There are many ways to set Nightwing up to be like Bruce but different. Similar to how DC can have Superman and Captain Marvel, very similar characters, with far different stories. Improve Nightwing's set-up and you could improve the Bat-Family as a whole.

#28 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman said:

Can we leave the childish "you know nothing about Dick Grayson" stuff. It just reminds me of the forum negativity so rampant with fans. Everyone's argument pretty much boils down to "He's Nightwing because he's Nightwing". If there were internet forums in the 80s people would've screamed bloody murder at the thought of anyone else being Robin and Dick being someone else. I think people get too quickly attached. Nightwing is as important as Robin. I think Dick Grayson deserves better. He doesn't even have an HQ, or equipment. Why not give him Damian as a side-kick at least as the dynamic worked so well. Having this 21 year old who throws his uniform on the floor doesn't feel like a real, living, breathing vigilante.

It's a little surprising to read "Dick Grayson" and "moody teenager" in the same sentence nowadays. "Court of the Owls" saw a Dick Grayson so optimistic as to laugh off the Owls. Dick was the one to tell Bruce the Court was any other enemy. Here, Dick not only accepts his "father", but cheers him on to battle. "Robin" or not, Dick is still Bruce's greatest tether to goodness.

There's also the matter of "Red Robin" outfit. It's an impractical for an acrobat to wear such a long cape. Is a cape worth losing those beautiful splashpages?

"I think Dick Grayson deserves better"

Doesn't Bruce deserve to raise his son the same way he raised the other Robins?

Dick has had an amazing four years. He proved himself in the pointy ears, taught his "brother" the meaning of heroism, and, after it all, found himself as Nightwing again. I've never loved the character more. He is a "lighter" Batman, if you mean that he learned to let go of his grief and embrace positivity. Joker, following that logic, is a "darker", or just "dark" Batman, someone who let tragedy burn his morals away.

Tim is a bit too cold to wear the cowl, no? Remember how he toyed with Captain Boomerang's life in "Red Robin"?

#29 Posted by wessaari (632 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the main arguemtn here is that Dick forged his Nightwing identity because he didnt want to be Robin, and he didnt want to be like Bruce. I think Dick works very well in a team, the Titans, and Outsiders prove that. But he is also a solo hero, with his own views on fighting crime, which are different from Bruce's. Dick has a life, and wants to have a better fullfilment in the world. He became Batman because at the time he realized the world still needed a Batman. If Tim were older, and actuallly got along with Damian, then i bet Tim would take on the cowl. Also spekaing of Tim, he took on the Red Robin identity because of 1) Damian becoming Robin. and 2) it was an identity Jason used, and he wanted to keep living on the Robin name in a new and better light. Nightwing was meant for Dick, and Red Robin was meant for Tim.

#30 Posted by havoc1201 (521 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim took on the red robin persona so he would not be in the robin costume while he bent the rules to find Bruce, and if you ever read the red robin series before the reboot you would see Tim progress and become more then robin he became his own man. Just like Dick did by becoming Nightwing and morrison is overrated, Dick returning back to being Nightwing is the right and natural thing that is who he is. and Red Robin is who Tim is.

#31 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

I won't even bother listening to why he should be.

#32 Posted by serpent222 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

While I generally agree with most of the objections here, I think that your explanation has one other huge problem. Clearly, you are a big Grayson fan, but can take or leave Tim Drake. Your idea to put Nightwing in the Red Robin persona thus ends up kind of rubbing everyone the wrong way, because most Nightwing fans will see it as a step backwards, and really, it just condemns Drake from having any sort of identity of his own. Saddling him with the Batman Beyond identity (which, in my opinion, wouldn't even really work until some point in the distant future, leaving him with nothing now), is just giving him another throwback to have him do something for the sake of doing something. The Red Robin series saw Drake take up the mantle as Red Robin because of all of the connections to the Robin persona, but, in the end, Drake made the Red Robin persona his own. The Red Robin series was Drake's coming of age story. To take that away from him would be to straight up murder Drake's character.

#33 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13643 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Hooperman said:

Can we leave the childish "you know nothing about Dick Grayson" stuff. It just reminds me of the forum negativity so rampant with fans. Everyone's argument pretty much boils down to "He's Nightwing because he's Nightwing". If there were internet forums in the 80s people would've screamed bloody murder at the thought of anyone else being Robin and Dick being someone else. I think people get too quickly attached. Nightwing is as important as Robin. I think Dick Grayson deserves better. He doesn't even have an HQ, or equipment. Why not give him Damian as a side-kick at least as the dynamic worked so well. Having this 21 year old who throws his uniform on the floor doesn't feel like a real, living, breathing vigilante.

It's a little surprising to read "Dick Grayson" and "moody teenager" in the same sentence nowadays. "Court of the Owls" saw a Dick Grayson so optimistic as to laugh off the Owls. Dick was the one to tell Bruce the Court was any other enemy. Here, Dick not only accepts his "father", but cheers him on to battle. "Robin" or not, Dick is still Bruce's greatest tether to goodness.

There's also the matter of "Red Robin" outfit. It's an impractical for an acrobat to wear such a long cape. Is a cape worth losing those beautiful splashpages?

"I think Dick Grayson deserves better"

Doesn't Bruce deserve to raise his son the same way he raised the other Robins?

Dick has had an amazing four years. He proved himself in the pointy ears, taught his "brother" the meaning of heroism, and, after it all, found himself as Nightwing again. I've never loved the character more. He is a "lighter" Batman, if you mean that he learned to let go of his grief and embrace positivity. Joker, following that logic, is a "darker", or just "dark" Batman, someone who let tragedy burn his morals away.

Tim is a bit too cold to wear the cowl, no? Remember how he toyed with Captain Boomerang's life in "Red Robin"?

i doubt he'd do that with every villain, but Boomer killed his father and in the end Tim made the right choice.

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#34 Posted by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by briangsharon (147 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm personally of the belief that Jason Todd should become a closer ally to batman and Tim Drake should fly solo.

I also think Nightwing (Dick Grayson) should move out of gotham.

#36 Posted by Hooperman (13 posts) - - Show Bio

On your blog post, Fodigg, on forging an original identity for Tim I totally agree. I really don't like Bat-moniker female names, I find that so uninspiring. Instead of two robins and three bats they should celebrate Huntress and Catwoman more as integral characters (they're both more dynamic than Bat-girls steph or rejuvenated Babs). On reversals of gender would it not be interesting to have Tim, distanced from the group and a bit shadier, to become Hunter - a Rule 64 Huntress? Or finally introduce Bat-Boy! :P

I guess my main argument is that making Dick Red Robin would have solidified him as a mature main player. We all agree he's not handled well, too flippant and Nightwing's being used as a Bat sidekick anyway. I just thought the Red option might finally free him from these bonds.

#37 Posted by serpent222 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

I think most people around here see Red Robin as being a much lower moniker than Nightwing, which is why we all generally think it's still a step backward. Yeah, Nightwing is still a Batman sidekick, but, at least with the reboot, he should be at the moment. Hopefully they'll just write him better and we get to see him break into a bigger deal in the new 52.

#38 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman: He was free of the side kick bond prior to Bruce coming back from the dead. He spent many years as a hero completely independent of Batman for the most part until DC decided that everyone without an S on their chest or a Green Lantern ring was Batman's side kick.

#39 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanted to have a little respect so i'd like all to know I took the time to read the blog post, and made notes on it while reading. Thank you.

No. Hell no. Dick in any Robin costume is a step back no matter what color its in. I'm not sure how anyone can read the current comics and call Dick moody. That makes no sense. And i'd also say calling him leaving the Robin role teenage rebellion is more than a little off the mark considering he was fired. Choosing to strike out on your own (He was like 21 at this point) and cut all ties with a man who just fired you is called having some pride and growing up. Moving out of the old man's house and paying for your own stuff. Basing the idea of him simply rebelling off his looks doesn't make any sense, and ignores the actual reasons he left the Robin role behind. Also, Dick's time as Batman still happened, as did his time with Damian, so there's no regression there.

If you have a problem with Dick being Nightwing, then you have to ask yourself how becoming Red Robin is going to solve it. One very big reason that becoming Red Robin would be the ultimate setback is the fact that in the current universe (This isn't Kingdom Come) BOTH Jason and Tim have worn the Red Robin uniform.

#40 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I don't see how him becoming a Robin again would be good for him in any way, shape or form.

#41 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I don't see how him becoming a Robin again would be good for him in any way, shape or form.

That's what I said.

#42 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I was agreeing with you

#43 Posted by SoA (5139 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

I like Dick as Nightwing, him making his own mantle is if anything more respectful to the character than having him rehash his previous persona. As Nightwing he gets to be his own man instead of constantly being in Batman's shadow like the rest of the Robins including Jason whose taken to wearing a bat symbol. Becoming Red Robin would be a tremendous step backward for Dick.

@JLDoom said:

@Hooperman said:

Just wrote up a blog post about why Dick Grayson should be the Red Robin (in his original costume) and not the pretender Drake!

Are you Jason Todd? :D

#44 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I was agreeing with you

I see. My bad then! It's agreed, being Red Robin would be the worst thing that's ever happened to Dick Grayson's character.

#45 Edited by richardjohngrayson (444 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@joshmightbe said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I was agreeing with you

I see. My bad then! It's agreed, being Red Robin would be the worst thing that's ever happened to Dick Grayson's character.

I second this, broski.
#46 Posted by BatWatch (2905 posts) - - Show Bio

I skimmed through the article, but I did not really see why you think Dick should be Red Robin. Could you say it briefly...not that I have any right to complain about long blog posts.

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#47 Posted by wessaari (632 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hooperman: ya but red Robin wont be original for him either, and its not even original for Tim. Jason first used that persona. i just dont see how Red Robin is a progression. To me that would be holding him back. Nightwing forged out that identity for himself, yes it was a story that Superman told him based off of Krypton, but its better than ripping off a title that two other Bat-family members have used. If you think he should prgress from Nightwing, then he would have to make up a whole new persona, possibly become Wingman, or ask Bruce to step down. Other than that, Nightwing was so beneficial to Dick, and it partially was because of rebeliion. Dick stopped being Bruce's sidekick before he gave up Robin. He was with the Teen Titans for a while and eventually switched over. Nightwing is a hero that Dick needed, or else he would only be the Boy Wonder.

#48 Posted by joshmightbe (25051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Aside from that whole thing where he got raped

#49 Posted by SmoothJammin (2342 posts) - - Show Bio

idk duder. Just that bit where you mention Drake and Mcginnis as similar characters makes me question your knowledge of the current Batfam at all. Actually, when I swap the two roles in my head I find Tim makes for a much more believable Red Robin, and Dick a better candidate for the Batman Beyond Project. It's been said many times before Dick's likeness is more akin to Terry. Personality wise, in physical appearance, even their costumes blend together nicely.

It makes better sense for Nightwing because he's not the sound strategist his younger brother is, he's a gifted tactician. The hostile types of situations that call for his immediate attention are usually ones that bring about unexpected threats. The suit makes sense. Tim recieved an upgrade in the form of gliders and it's aided him in some tough spots. Batman launches handy rockets from his gauntlets. What Grayson needs desperately, apart from the smexy stun rods are upgrades to his body armor and paraphernalia. Lots and lots of it.

#50 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

A few things I would like to say.

1st your blog post was very well wrote and brought up several legitimate ideas and thoughts about the character of Dick Grayson. I do think that the idea if Nightwing was at first a rebelling phase does make some sense. But I think that Dick has grown up over the years and I think that Nightwing was grown up as a hero in the same way that Dick was grown into a man. It is like the guy who goes to college to pursue environmental science just to show his big business father that he is wrong. He end up becoming the expert on global warming. It started as a rebellion and ended up as his mission in life. Just my 2 cents.

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