The Unspoken Sovereignty

#1 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

I read somewhere that the reason Dan Didio decided to outfit the 'premier' Justice League with Victorian Collars was because it symbolized their regalness and importance. For certain members who donned cowls like Batman and Flash the high collars were impractical but the idea is still there. They are like royalty among heroes. Subverted in the case of Wonder Woman who maintains this uniformity by wearing a V-style choker . Outside of the core league you don't see many characters, if any, who share this distinction. Then you have Nightwing.

Following the events of Final Crisis, Dick Grayson stepped into the role of his fallen mentor and introduced a new kind of Dark Knight. He led strong sales on Morrison's critically acclaimed Batman & Robin series and the brilliant final run of Detective Comics. As Batman, Dick ushered in what I like to call the Camelot Age of DC. Meaning, with the big 3 out of the picture legacy characters became increasingly prominent. Fresh faces populated the DCU and the status quo was shaken up once more. Dick eventually became leader of his own incarnation of JLA comprised of B/C-list heroes and represented a new generation. There were instances where old school veterans like Barry Allen and Hal Jordan, Green Arrow just to name a few returned from obscurity and helped out in Cry for Justice and Blackest Night. Other hard hitters were killed away during big events but DC compensated by bringing in similar, carbon copy heroes(Mon-El/Red Robin/Donna Troy etc), It wasn't long before continuity was reset again, kicking off what would become the new 52.

This time, DC had released 52 all-new number ones. Some were team books, others were limited series but the luckier ones were featured in solo titles. One such example involves my favorite hero of all time--Nightwing. Now. It may just be wishful thinking on my part, and who knows...I might be completely in the minority here. But I think DC hid a clever easter egg. I believe Dick Grayson was so highly praised by the general public before the reboot that Dan Didio/Jim Lee disguised their blessings in the form of.. yep, you heard it here first. The Justice League's prestigious high collar!!! It's clear how the V patterns crescendo off of the neckline, arms and legs. He is a rare case in that his costume does have the coveted v-neck. Is Nightwing secretly part of an exclusive group of elites? DC's subliminal "nod" to Grayson after milking his successes pre-reboot?

Go ahead, shoot me some pms and tell me if I'm right or if I'm right. I'd love to hear your input because it really does interest me. This is all in good fun, no need to lynch someone for having a theory!

#2 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you think?

'Down low' leaguer
#3 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

You might be reading too much into the costumes man... I don't know.

#4 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Yeah.. I think so. I don't know how the hell I came up with the idea but I was so invested in the concept lol. Thanks for that, really.

#5 Posted by BlackArmor (6133 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's just, y'know armor....on his neck

#6 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@ReVamp: Yeah.. I think so. I don't know how the hell I came up with the idea but I was so invested in the concept lol. Thanks for that, really.

I understand where its coming from though...

#7 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: It bums me out that Dick has always been a reserve leaguer, when characters like Huntress and Red Arrow have been involved with the team for years. The chemistry he has with Bruce and Clark would bring a new dynamic to the JLA,he could be a sort of mediator. It's cute how as Robin he tagged along with Batman on missions featuring the JLA. As Nightwing there is even more storyline potential because of the stark contrast to his mentor and his natural ability to inspire/lead

#8 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@BlackArmor: It bums me out that Dick has always been a reserve leaguer, when characters like Huntress and Red Arrow have been involved with the team for years. The chemistry he has with Bruce and Clark would bring a new dynamic to the JLA,he could be a sort of mediator. It's cute how as Robin he tagged along with Batman on missions featuring the JLA. As Nightwing there is even more storyline potential because of the stark contrast to his mentor and his natural ability to inspire/lead

The reason that this happens isn't because Huntress and Red Arrow are better characters for the team, but because Batman is better for the team. He's competing with Batman while Red Arrow is competing with Green Arrow and Huntress isn't competing with anyone at all.

#9 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I could understand if it was Tim Drake and you made that analogy. Nightwing is a much different specimen. In the comics it's been implied that the Big 3 have wanted Dick to join up but he always declines. In a way though, having both members on the roster is something of a contradiction. It's like recruiting two tanks for a raid. Where it's important to dehumanize Batman, keeping him closer to his detective roots and away from the wacky pseudo science/colorful team ups, Nightwing fits the adventurer bill neatly. He can get away with going on space adventures with the league because he's not involved in 6 monthly titles and it's nothing short of what he experienced in his early titan days. Unfortunately Batman is the bigger name draw and money talks.

#10 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@ReVamp: I could understand if it was Tim Drake and you made that analogy. Nightwing is a much different specimen. In the comics it's been implied that the Big 3 have wanted Dick to join up but he always declines. In a way though, having both members on the roster is something of a contradiction. It's like recruiting two tanks for a raid. Where it's important to dehumanize Batman, keeping him closer to his detective roots and away from the wacky pseudo science/colorful team ups, Nightwing fits the adventurer bill neatly. He can get away with going on space adventures with the league because he's not involved in 6 monthly titles and it's nothing short of what he experienced in his early titan days. Unfortunately Batman is the bigger name draw and money talks.

You're preaching to the priest-- well, in this case to the biggest Nightwing fan on the vine. :D

#11 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1549 posts) - - Show Bio

May be looking too much into it, but you may be on to something as well. There's a definite resemblance. They could've made his costume look any way they wanted.

As someone said, its been stated at different times that he's been wanted on the League for a while. He's the one that refuses. Probably because he recognizes that with Bruce there he's not needed. He can't add anything that Bruce can't really, so its better for the superhero world as a whole if both are on seperate teams doing their own thing. Anyone remember the first JLA comic after the original 52? When Bruce, Clark and Diana all met up to choose the new JLA team? There was a moment when they were looking at his picture and discussing him. Diana and Clark without hesitation said he should be on the team. That they should honor him. Easily one of the best moments in comic history.

#12 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: That's awesome. I remember seeing that panel and the dialogue sticking with me for a long time. It's probably what influenced this thread, lol. I've always wanted Dick to become renowned around the world as a household name, in the same way Cyborg is now being built up in the relaunch. A seat in the JLA would speak volumes and enhance his legacy like never before.

#13 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1549 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: That's awesome. I remember seeing that panel and the dialogue sticking with me for a long time. It's probably what influenced this thread, lol. I've always wanted Dick to become renowned around the world as a household name, in the same way Cyborg is now being built up in the relaunch. A seat in the JLA would speak volumes and enhance his legacy like never before.

Exactly. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. The BIG 3 of the DC Universe basically said he was the guy. Not That guy, but THE GUY. The one everyone can turn to, the leader, the one who doesn't need a spot on the league. He wouldn't just be a good addition. Its not about what he'd add. Its about the fact he's EARNED it and he DESERVES the honor. He organized everyone during Infinite Crisis and I think it was then it was clear that whenever the torch is eventually passed (And even now) he'll be the guy that stands at the head of the Superhero world..

#14 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: That's awesome. I remember seeing that panel and the dialogue sticking with me for a long time. It's probably what influenced this thread, lol. I've always wanted Dick to become renowned around the world as a household name, in the same way Cyborg is now being built up in the relaunch. A seat in the JLA would speak volumes and enhance his legacy like never before.

Exactly. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. The BIG 3 of the DC Universe basically said he was the guy. Not That guy, but THE GUY. The one everyone can turn to, the leader, the one who doesn't need a spot on the league. He wouldn't just be a good addition. Its not about what he'd add. Its about the fact he's EARNED it and he DESERVES the honor. He organized everyone during Infinite Crisis and I think it was then it was clear that whenever the torch is eventually passed (And even now) he'll be the guy that stands at the head of the Superhero world..

You don't understand how happy it makes me to see that someone remembers all of that and acknowledges this marvelous hero. Who cares about status quo. Lets turn this formulaic landscape on its head and shake things up again. Light the whole thing up.

I've never felt so confident about Nightwing's standing in comics until now, so I guess I should give the devil his due, and thank Dan Didio. How ironic the very man who nearly killed him off during Infinite crisis is now building the entire DC universe back up in an exciting new direction through digital & media outlets. I still don't completely trust the bastard, but he has my respect(for now).

#15 Edited by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA collar strikes again!!!!

#16 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Images :/

#17 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

Depressing images to be sure.

#18 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Still think you were looking too far into this.

#19 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10899 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I think it's just the new style.

#20 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah.

#21 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

Can you guys name any other heroes who sport the victorian collar? @ArturoCalaKayVee: @ReVamp:

#22 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

I never thought about it, but you might well be right. I remember Batman stating that Dick Grayson most probably remained a morally unquestionable character even in a the perverted future of a parallel universe. Everybody holds him in great esteem and see a real hero in him.

#23 Edited by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

#24 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: You're right, that's it. Your theory is more and more likely to be confirmed, especially with Tim Drake's comparable outfit.

BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT #9
#25 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't really like that but similar.

There wasn't any ruse, Superman (Earth-2, ofc) was trying to convince Bruce to come to Earth-2 and replace the Bruce Wayne of that Earth who had, quite unfortunately, died. He said that everyone on New Earth had become quite corrupt and that on Earth-2 on the other hand, they didn't. Bruce countered this by asking him if he thought the Dick Grayson of New Earth was corrupt, to which Superman couldn't answer. (I'm not sure if he answered or not).

#26 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10899 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't really like that but similar.

There wasn't any ruse, Superman (Earth-2, ofc) was trying to convince Bruce to come to Earth-2 and replace the Bruce Wayne of that Earth who had, quite unfortunately, died. He said that everyone on New Earth had become quite corrupt and that on Earth-2 on the other hand, they didn't. Bruce countered this by asking him if he thought the Dick Grayson of New Earth was corrupt, to which Superman couldn't answer. (I'm not sure if he answered or not).

He said Dick of New Earth was a better man than Dick of Earth-2 while speaking to Alexander Luthor

#27 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@ReVamp said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't really like that but similar.

There wasn't any ruse, Superman (Earth-2, ofc) was trying to convince Bruce to come to Earth-2 and replace the Bruce Wayne of that Earth who had, quite unfortunately, died. He said that everyone on New Earth had become quite corrupt and that on Earth-2 on the other hand, they didn't. Bruce countered this by asking him if he thought the Dick Grayson of New Earth was corrupt, to which Superman couldn't answer. (I'm not sure if he answered or not).

He said Dick of New Earth was a better man than Dick of Earth-2 while speaking to Alexander Luthor

He did? Eh, probably because he couldn't handle the death of Bruce.

#28 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10899 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@ReVamp said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't really like that but similar.

There wasn't any ruse, Superman (Earth-2, ofc) was trying to convince Bruce to come to Earth-2 and replace the Bruce Wayne of that Earth who had, quite unfortunately, died. He said that everyone on New Earth had become quite corrupt and that on Earth-2 on the other hand, they didn't. Bruce countered this by asking him if he thought the Dick Grayson of New Earth was corrupt, to which Superman couldn't answer. (I'm not sure if he answered or not).

He said Dick of New Earth was a better man than Dick of Earth-2 while speaking to Alexander Luthor

He did? Eh, probably because he couldn't handle the death of Bruce.

Yeah, it was when Kal-L realized that New Earth wasn't ALL that bad and tried to reason with Luthor. I think it's more the fact that Dick of NE grew into his own as Nightwing and led multiple teams such as The Titans and The Outsiders while Dick of E2 stayed in Batman's shadow as Robin and didn't evolve passed that. But that's just how I view it, I could be wrong.

#29 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayVee: Yeah, its an opinion and a valid one at that.

#30 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@DocFatalis said:

@SmoothJammin: You're right, that's it. Your theory is more and more likely to be confirmed, especially with Tim Drake's comparable outfit.

BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT #9

Are you being sarcastic?lmao.

#31 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: You may be right. On the other hand, it could be a "symptom" of some of the over-designing and cluttering up of costumes that's come with the new 52. Somehow, many costumes have become less Iconic as a result of the "extras" thrown in.

#32 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1549 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@ReVamp said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@ReVamp said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@DocFatalis: Yep. That was during infinite crisis if I remember correctly. In former continuity, Dick was said to be a kind person in every parallel Earth, which is how Batman was able to read through Superman 2's ruse. Or something along those lines.

Yeah. Well, it wasn't really like that but similar.

There wasn't any ruse, Superman (Earth-2, ofc) was trying to convince Bruce to come to Earth-2 and replace the Bruce Wayne of that Earth who had, quite unfortunately, died. He said that everyone on New Earth had become quite corrupt and that on Earth-2 on the other hand, they didn't. Bruce countered this by asking him if he thought the Dick Grayson of New Earth was corrupt, to which Superman couldn't answer. (I'm not sure if he answered or not).

He said Dick of New Earth was a better man than Dick of Earth-2 while speaking to Alexander Luthor

He did? Eh, probably because he couldn't handle the death of Bruce.

Yeah, it was when Kal-L realized that New Earth wasn't ALL that bad and tried to reason with Luthor. I think it's more the fact that Dick of NE grew into his own as Nightwing and led multiple teams such as The Titans and The Outsiders while Dick of E2 stayed in Batman's shadow as Robin and didn't evolve passed that. But that's just how I view it, I could be wrong.

And also remember, at the very start when Kal-L and the others were watching Dick he said he'd been specifically watching Dick with a vested interest over the years.

#33 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

Was full on retro-mode yesterday reading Crisis on Multiple Earths and Dream of the Endless.. Was COIE>COME? Haven't picked it up, everyone says Infinite Earths is a great read. Frankly I found COME boring as hell

#34 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Was full on retro-mode yesterday reading Crisis on Multiple Earths and Dream of the Endless.. Was COIE>COME? Haven't picked it up, everyone says Infinite Earths is a great read. Frankly I found COME boring as hell

Never read it, I generally skip Events and Crossovers.

#35 Posted by SmoothJammin (2331 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:Why? Are you skipping Night of Owls as well?

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