The Character Assassination of Dick Grayson

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#1 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

To get right to the heart of the matter, since the Flashpoint reset the clock Dick Grayson's character has been chipping away bit by bit, and it's starting to get the point that he's almost unrecognizable from the man he was previously, as if he's only a pale reflection of his former self. I have no idea why this has happened, but I just want to get everyone else's thoughts on it. First let me sum up the ways his character has deteriorated:

1. Became Robin at 16- This is actually one of the milder examples on my list, but becoming Robin at 16 completely kills the idea of the kid sidekick, which Dick was always famous for being the first of. He was the first, and silently acknowledged as the greatest. Having been in the game for so long and trained by one of the Big 3 it was recognized that he was the one who everyone could count on to step up when the big guns failed. This leads to my next point.

2. Robin for a year- This means his relationship with Bruce is nowhere near as strong or meaningful for one thing. They were the Dynamic Duo for a year and that was it, Dick was out on his own. They were still close apparently, but just like you can't realistically think Bruce had every single one of his old adventures in the new timeline, you can't think that Dick and Bruce had the same amount of time together either, whether he was Robin or Nightwing. Having his time as Robin reduced of course also lessens the amount of time he's been active as a hero, and specifically the amount of bonds he could have formed with other heroes. Now we currently know that Dick was Batman for at least a year during which Bruce was "dead". However, we've seen no evidence that he was still a member of the Justice League during that time, or that he's ever been a member of the Justice League (And he'd previously led a variation of the team when the main group was lost in time during Obsidian Age) This again leads into my next point.

3. Lost his entire history with the Teen Titans- For me this is the biggest blow. Putting aside the fact that Dick's entire character basically began in the Teen Titans comics (As that's where he was fleshed out as more than just a sidekick), and the fact that a good chunk of his adventures have been with some form of the team, and the fact that working with the team was the starting point for him becoming one of the most well known and trusted heroes in the DCU (Perhaps only 2nd to Superman), DC has yet to offer anything to replace this huge gap in the character's history. All they've given us is one flashback from Kori proving that there were at least a few team ups for some version of the Wolfman/Perez era Titans. The number of heroes he met due to being a part of the team, the amount of respect he gained from it (For an example, Connor Kent once acknowledged that when Nightwing was around other heroes they immediately looked to him as the leader), and the overall impact it had on him has been erased. My next point stems directly from this one:

4. Wally West and Donna Troy being thrown into limbo- As far as we know neither of these characters currently exists in the DCnU, and it is truly sad, because both were Dick's best friends. Wally like a brother, and Donna perhaps a soul mate. Them being removed from Dick's life is like Alfred being removed from Bruce's, or the Kent's from Superman's. They were fixtures in his life that lead to him growing as a person. And like with the Titan's there's been no mention of anything or anyone to fill this new hole, Gar has yet to appear, Victor's with the JLA, Tempest also has yet to make an appearance, even in his mentor's title, and Roy Harper, one of Dick's best friends and another person who he considered family, has been thrown together with Jason Todd, along with Starfire, one of the great loves of Dick's life. DC has systematically dismantled Dick's support structure, and left only the Bat Family in the place of the Titans, and to be honest i'm not surprised, because they have a history of acting as if the two (The Titans and the Bat Family) can't coexist in Dick's life, as if one has to trump the other for anything to make sense. Putting everything else aside, the problem with Dick and the Bat Family is that his relationship with them has changed as well.

5. The Bat Family- Now i've already pointed out that Dick and Bruce haven't spent nearly as much time together, and they're also closer in age now, which leads to their relationship being perceived differently by fans. However, I can at least say that it's still clear that if there's anyone Bruce considers to be his right hand man it's Dick, and even the Joker seems to think the same in the most recent event. Yet, let's look at Dick's relationships with the other members of the family. Alfred is of course a constant and will hopefully never leave Dick's life. Barbara and Dick however have had their entire history reset it seems, with no prior relationship ever having happened. Dick and Jason haven't been shown to interact much, which makes sense based on everything Jason's done, but they haven't come to blows either. Yet, Jason's taken away two of the people that were previously closest to Dick. Dick and Tim, who were once as close as brothers haven't really interacted at all, and while it's obviously not Tim's fault he's stolen part of Dick's history by now being the one to form the Teen Titans. Damian is the one member of the family who's relationship to Dick doesn't seem to have changed at all. They still respect each other, and Dick still understands Damian in a way the others don't. This is hardly enough to make up for the other losses Dick has suffered however.

Now let me get to the points that prompted me to start this thread, the Nightwing Title being drawn into the latest arc of Batman's life, and the character being left irrevocably altered because of it. First it was the Court of Owls, now it's Death in the Family, and who knows what it'll be next.

6. The Gray Son of Gotham- The revelation that Dick would've been a Talon had his parents not died, and that his great grandfather was a Talon, was just terrible. Stupid, unnecessary, and terrible. Dick never had any connection to Gotham before, and he didn't need one. He was from a circus family, a travelling circus, who happened to be in Gotham at the wrong time and pay for it. Now we have some type of ancient conspiracy dating back decades and for what? What does it really add to the character? I'd say nothing, and that it goes against the basis of the character. It's disgustingly similar to how the Wayne family has now always been connected to the Bat. I don't generally have a problem with the destiny angle. When written well it can lead to amazing results, but hear it just seems to be so contradictory here to the very idea of everything Dick stands for. He was never some kid fighting against destiny or trying to disprove an ancient family curse, he was a boy struck by tragedy who managed to build something great from it. My next point also touches on a problem the character's had for a long time.

7. Haley's Circus- As anyone who read the most recent issue of NIghtwing knows, Haley's Circus was destroyed by the Joker. Now, I think I can speak for everyone when I say it's not a surprise this happened. A circus in Gotham City is perhaps doomed to fail from the start. It is probably common sense that the Joker will go there at some point and screw things up as he tends to. And this is why his most recent action has absolutely no impact, yet proceeds to once again throw Dick Grayson into limbo. He's spent basically the last year of his series working on that circus, building it back up to shine some light into Gotham and make his mark. His entire series revolved around it, his supporting cast was there. He literally has nothing else besides that. Therefore, for the circus to be destroyed and his coworkers killed, the majority of what Dick has been doing since the reboot has become meaningless. It's actually quite similar to when Bludhaven had Chemo dropped onto it. Wouldn't it have truly been wonderful if the writers had taken the opposite route and instead of having the Circus destroyed, have it survive and even thrive, and then continue to build Dick's own personal universe up around it with new characters and new rouges? But we all know that Dick just can't have nice things right? Destroying the Circus is just a waste of character development, just as Raya's death was, just as Saiko's death was. Each wasn't around long enough for s to truly grow to care about them, but each could've been used to greater effect had they been kept around longer.

And this then touches on a problem the character's always seemed to have in his own series, the distinct lack of permanence. By that I mean that nothing ever seems to last for Dick. No supporting cast, no rogues gallery, everything for him revolves around what's going on in Bruce's life. (Not blaming Bruce, but the writers) The problem with this is that it really does make it look like Dick's only 2nd best to Bruce, as if he has nothing of his own, nothing else to do but jump in and help Bruce. The writers never seem to really want to build Dick up and give him a lasting impact. As I pointed out earlier the exact same thing happened back when Bludhaven was destroyed. He had an entire series built around this city. It was his in every sense, and everyone knew that. Then it was nuked off the face of the Earth, and Dick's entire life went with it. From there he was left jumping around till he settled in New York, and then finally went back to Gotham when the Black Glove started acting up, and he's been there ever since. I don't have a problem with him being in Gotham. I think it opens up the possibility for some interesting story opportunities, but if Dick's never going to be able to carve out his own little corner, where he can have his own thing going on and doesn't constantly have to deal with Bruce, then he needs to leave and go find some other city to set up in. A place where the writers can hopefully start to really build the character back up to his former greatness.

So, thoughts?

#2 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have much to contribute, having never read a pre-52 version of Dick and having only seen the new Dick through his brief appearances in other Bat books and the DotF tie-ins. But this is definitely a very strong assessment, and I get the sense that you're making extremely valid points. The only thing I can comment on is that in the beginning of RHatO it was made clear that Kori has had some past with Dick, clearly romantic, but can't remember it, so somewhere down the line it's possible that will be explored. Point being: at least a smidgen of the former relationships may have been salvaged. But functionally, it does seem like an awful lot of worthwhile character development got flushed.

#3 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree with the Gray Son of Gotham argument, but I co-sign everything else. In my point of view, the real problem is the whole approach of the New 52 "revamp". Sloppy and respectless are the two words I tend to use concerning the effort. Nightwing's character along with some others were severely damaged, since the revamp brought continuity problems, mentality problems, etc, erasing facts, relationships, stories and many other things that keep annoying a huge part of the fans. I do believe that Grayson lost some of his former greatness and character depth, nevertheless, I have to say I'm pretty confident, they'll manage to save the day with his case, while other cases are completely lost.

#4 Posted by John Valentine (16323 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't agree more. The more I think about it, the more annoyed I get!

#5 Posted by Nightwing4 (372 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually liked the Gray Son story, as it expanded on Dick's personal mythos outside the Bat Family. However cutting off all the old titans' history is the biggest crime in the New 52. Issue #1 of RHATO gives me hope that a past between Kori and Dick means that some form of Titans or even Outsiders did at one point exist. IF that also explained the disappearance of Donna and Wally it would make for one HELL of an arc! I think the *only* really good thing about the revamped Robin origin is that it'll translate to film better than the original.

But I digress.

#6 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

I find him pretty bland in the New 52. Like, I don't know how to put, but before he had bit of swagger to him (aka a developed personality).

#7 Posted by SUNMAN (7262 posts) - - Show Bio

Welcome back to 2006 Dick Grayson lol (I'm really crying on the inside)

its sad but true he is just a shell of his former shelf. And I called it early on durrign this relaunch.

#8 Posted by Manhunter2070 (119 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not so bothered about the becoming Robin at 16 part, but I do dislike the fact he was only Robin for a year, I think the're trying too hard to fit it into 5 years.  
 
I agree about the Teen Titans part as well, but I hope they develop what Lobdell suggested about him adventuring with other teen heroes in his youth at least.

#9 Posted by Vitacura (89 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing got totally wrecked in the new 52.

He was a leader now he is not, he had connections with everyone now he is completely insolated. He got beaten to in every arc.

His career as Robyn is gone, as Nightwing too, his relationship with Bruce and Tim gone, his friends literally out of existence, now his story with Deathstroke is gone too.

And in every crossover he loses something else, with the owls he lost Haly and now the Joker blows up all he got sine the new 52.But hey, now has a red suit and red is soo cool.

And I don’t think it has been a bad run, actually I think Nightwing 16 was pretty good, but seeing what Nightwing was and what he is now, is very depressing.

#10 Posted by Nightwingdg (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

#11 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

I disagree with the Gray Son of Gotham argument, but I co-sign everything else. In my point of view, the real problem is the whole approach of the New 52 "revamp". Sloppy and respectless are the two words I tend to use concerning the effort. Nightwing's character along with some others were severely damaged, since the revamp brought continuity problems, mentality problems, etc, erasing facts, relationships, stories and many other things that keep annoying a huge part of the fans. I do believe that Grayson lost some of his former greatness and character depth, nevertheless, I have to say I'm pretty confident, they'll manage to save the day with his case, while other cases are completely lost.

@Nightwing4 said:

I actually liked the Gray Son story, as it expanded on Dick's personal mythos outside the Bat Family. However cutting off all the old titans' history is the biggest crime in the New 52. Issue #1 of RHATO gives me hope that a past between Kori and Dick means that some form of Titans or even Outsiders did at one point exist. IF that also explained the disappearance of Donna and Wally it would make for one HELL of an arc! I think the *only* really good thing about the revamped Robin origin is that it'll translate to film better than the original.

But I digress.

The Gray Son thing is the one point of contention people generally seem to have. From what i've seen, people that were fine with the Wayne's being tied to the Bat symbol tend to be fine with the whole Gray Son thing. It's certainly not the biggest change that's happened to the character, it's just a notable one. Unlike the others you can make an argument for it being better, because it's not taking anything away from his history, only adding on to it.

@Nightwingdg said:

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

You know saying something and not expanding on it is basically a waste of a post.

#12 Posted by darkwingdan (189 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll agree with you on 5 of the 6 items you posted. It should be noted that those items are due to editorial mandates rather than the writing. I think that Higgins, within the confines that have been imposed upon him, has done a very good job with the character. The "Gray Son of Gotham" bit is an example of that. The other items are things that, to a degree, have chipped away at the "foundation" of the character. However, the Court of Owls connection is something that instead adds to the character's history without fundamentally changing things. Further, despite all the editorial decisions that have changed Nightwing's history, he's being written by a guy that's like us - a big fan of Dick Grayson. Because of that, Dick's characterization has remained consistent from pre-reboot. In fact, not only in Nightwing but in Batman and Batman & Robin, Dick's characterization is consistent with the old continuity. That's because when the reboot was planned, the different groups were allowed to pick and choose their character histories. The Batman group decided to basically say "F*** the timeline, whatever happened in Batman comics still happened." That's why Damian is 10 despite a 5 year history. That's why Jason still died and came back. That's why we have a Batwing book.

Dick's character is not getting assassinated. Sure, elements of his past may be gone or tweaked to fit the DCnU. However, I think we should use some of Dick's own personal advice and look forward at what's coming down the pipe. We shouldn't keep looking back on these stories because they will always be there. Even if editorial says no, Higgins is a writer, and a fan, that will keep the pre-reboot spirit of the character alive

#13 Posted by Z3RO180 (6633 posts) - - Show Bio

I kind of disagree with your post. The Gray Son of Gotham and the whole of the court of owls story ark was awesome and i feel if they didnt reboot every thing and put it in the last universe it would have been even more awesome and would have had more and much more deadlyer revaltions for Dick

#14 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkwingdan said:

I'll agree with you on 5 of the 6 items you posted. It should be noted that those items are due to editorial mandates rather than the writing. I think that Higgins, within the confines that have been imposed upon him, has done a very good job with the character. The "Gray Son of Gotham" bit is an example of that. The other items are things that, to a degree, have chipped away at the "foundation" of the character. However, the Court of Owls connection is something that instead adds to the character's history without fundamentally changing things. Further, despite all the editorial decisions that have changed Nightwing's history, he's being written by a guy that's like us - a big fan of Dick Grayson. Because of that, Dick's characterization has remained consistent from pre-reboot. In fact, not only in Nightwing but in Batman and Batman & Robin, Dick's characterization is consistent with the old continuity. That's because when the reboot was planned, the different groups were allowed to pick and choose their character histories. The Batman group decided to basically say "F*** the timeline, whatever happened in Batman comics still happened." That's why Damian is 10 despite a 5 year history. That's why Jason still died and came back. That's why we have a Batwing book.

Dick's character is not getting assassinated. Sure, elements of his past may be gone or tweaked to fit the DCnU. However, I think we should use some of Dick's own personal advice and look forward at what's coming down the pipe. We shouldn't keep looking back on these stories because they will always be there. Even if editorial says no, Higgins is a writer, and a fan, that will keep the pre-reboot spirit of the character alive

Just because something new is added doesn't automatically make it a good thing. Similar to Tim now being an Olympic level athlete or Joker having planned out Jason's entire life up until his death.

Character wise, Dick is similar, but not the same. As others have pointed out, the numerous connections he had Pre-Flashpoint are all but gone, and i'd say those connections are just as important to Dick Grayson's character as being the first Robin or an acrobat.

@Z3RO180 said:

I kind of disagree with your post. The Gray Son of Gotham and the whole of the court of owls story ark was awesome and i feel if they didnt reboot every thing and put it in the last universe it would have been even more awesome and would have had more and much more deadlyer revaltions for Dick

Besides thinking the Gray Son thing was awesome (Which i've already said is a matter of opinion, and that I think it was unnecessary and tacked on) i'm not sure what you're saying. You're saying that you think that if that part had been in the previous universe it would've been even better, so you were fine with everything that was in the previous universe (everything that's been lost) but you're saying you disagree with my post.

#15 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

Get over here

#16 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

Get over here

lol i've been wondering where they were.

#17 Edited by Z3RO180 (6633 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: yes that is what im saying

#18 Posted by Onemoreposter (4075 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Yep. I agree with most of those points. The Talon stuff in particular was lame.

#19 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with all points except for 6 and 7.

I don't think the destruction of Haley's Circus is a step backwards, I think its a perfect opportunity to see him really develop... his world has centered on it from the start of the reboot, and now its gone. He needs to rebuild his world now, cope with disaster and move forward from it. I don't think it makes his prior development wasted time at all; I think it contributes to the evolution that will now be necessary.

#20 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with alot of what you said, besies 6 and partially 7. I think Dick has been watered down to a batman-lite, and Higgins has hinted that Dick is getting out of the city. This is great news, as he can be his own person, interact with different characters, and even try and start to form an alliance with characters that he once had (primarily if Wally and Donna come back). I think the way Dick responded to his family's history makes up for your point 6. He didnt care, nor should he care. He became his own person, (even though he really is second best to batman), but he forged something out for himself. I think with haly's gone he can finally move on, but i think its destruction matters, because it will mean that Dick wasnt meant to stay in Gotham. I 100% agree that Raya and Saiko could have had more of an importance if they hadn't died, and i was really looking forward to seeing Raya again, but now that she is dead I am really bummed. Same with Saiko, he could have been a huge addition to Dick's rogue's gallery, but since Saiko was meant to be a Talon the Court could find him and revive him with their serum. One could only hope.

on your other points, I couldnt agree more, but that is more of the company to blame than the writer. The writer had a time frame to work with, and it was very small and strict. I would have preferred it to be 10 years instead of 5, that way Bruce is still older, has more time with each Robin, and grows attached to them with the siginificant time. 5 years was a really bad idea, because now we dont have certain relationships that we cherished in past continuity. Tim's lack of appearance in the Bat-family is due to him being in the Titans, and frankly he should ahve more time than that. Giving him his own title could have benefitted his relations with the Bat-family, but instead DC had to make room for Firestorm, Grifter, and freaking Men of War. meaning pointless books that should have been meant for better characters within the DC universe such as Wally West, Donna Troy, Tempest, Steph Brown, Cass Cain, Mia Dearden, and any others that deserve more than the treatment that they have recieved.

Dick's history within the New 52, is still significant even though it isnt ideal. Ive loved the series for the msot part, besides the issues of late without counting DOTF. The Paragon arc was pointless, and the Lady Shiva had promise but was handled badly. heres to hoping that 2013 can give Dick a better environment, and a life on his own with his own characters, villains, and experiences.

#21 Edited by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

Although I wish you were wrong, I find that I 100% agreement with this post. I've been reflecting on this for awhile and I can't think of one thing Dick has gained from the reboot, something that has improved the character in anyway. As much as I hate the character, Jason Todd has benefited the most from this reboot. Actually, he may be the only robin that this can actually be said about. Lobdell has actually made him into something more than a hurt brought back for the dead puppy with daddy issues that kills.

Back to Dick, I really hope Higgins "bold direction" actually rejuvenates the character, because I'd really hate to drop the character that got me into comics and superheroes book. The way DC has treated the character actually makes me sort of glad Bertinelli was erased, at least I didn't have to watch her suffer.

#22 Posted by X9 (767 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

Dick's history within the New 52, is still significant even though it isnt ideal.

This. Plus, I already expect things to be different with the New 52.

Second...to be really, really honest, the two things that are still akward to me are: the fact that Tim said Jason was the closest thing he's had of a brother in his entire life, what proves his relationship with Dick no longer exists and the Grayson's death when Dick was 16. I liked to have Bruce as a real father figure to him. However, nth I can't adapt to.

Last but not least...really guys? You wanned to see more of Raya and Saiko? Cause I thought that was ok at its best...

#23 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightwingdg said:

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

The current Nightwing is merely Batman lite,DC is hellbent on making him their Daredevil and they are failing spectacularly.He's just a poor mans version of both those characters at this point,you think that's god send?

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Also DC keeps interchanging the qualities of the Robins,you know take something from one and give it to the other.

Dick no longer has history with the Titans,his best friends are gone or are buddies with Jason flipping Todd,even Deathstroke is going after Jason.He even wears red like the rest of them.

But the thing that personally gets me is the tone and direction of the Batman line.Instead of giving the characters their own unique theme they are instead resorting to cheap slasher flick tones,and ofcourse like all slasher flicks the villain has the ability to appear out of nowhere,make the hero crap in their pants etc.I HATE it,the entire Batman line is merely doing what Snyder does,it's like their own creativity was extinguished when Snyder came on board.

I dont even wanna talk about the terrible crossovers,Batman stops the Court of Owls Dick merely beats a Talon.Joker own Dick and everyone else and now we're supposed to see the conclusion to the story in Batman#17, why should I read Nightwing then?

Dick is merely a sidekick now,a sidekick with a cool name and look,a sidekick who gives you the impression he's independent but at the end of the day he's merely a stepping stone.

#24 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

This is exactly why I'm so invested in Young Justice.

#25 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Nightwingdg said:

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

The current Nightwing is merely Batman lite,DC is hellbent on making him their Daredevil and they are failing spectacularly.He's just a poor mans version of both those characters at this point,you think that's god send?

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Also DC keeps interchanging the qualities of the Robins,you know take something from one and give it to the other.

Dick no longer has history with the Titans,his best friends are gone or are buddies with Jason flipping Todd,even Deathstroke is going after Jason.He even wears red like the rest of them.

But the thing that personally gets me is the tone and direction of the Batman line.Instead of giving the characters their own unique theme they are instead resorting to cheap slasher flick tones,and ofcourse like all slasher flicks the villain has the ability to appear out of nowhere,make the hero crap in their pants etc.I HATE it,the entire Batman line is merely doing what Snyder does,it's like their own creativity was extinguished when Snyder came on board.

I dont even wanna talk about the terrible crossovers,Batman stops the Court of Owls Dick merely beats a Talon.Joker own Dick and everyone else and now we're supposed to see the conclusion to the story in Batman#17, why should I read Nightwing then?

Dick is merely a sidekick now,a sidekick with a cool name and look,a sidekick who gives you the impression he's independent but at the end of the day he's merely a stepping stone.

i think thats why we need Dick out of Gotham, and though he has been played victim to crossovers, Higgins has been dropping hints that NW's direction is changing and a new setting might be in the works. Though I ahve enjoyed most of the series, I think he has been played second fidle to Batman. I think Snyder wanted to make the line a huge force in DC, and succeeded where batman is concerned, but we really do need to have a break with crossovers. The other books need to develop their lines and try to make them memorable instead of Batman making them memorable. Granted I like what Snyder is doing, and even though he has taken hold of a most titles, i like the idea of DOTF. That being said, one book should not dictate everything else in that certain line, and once this is done the books need to really to do their own thing, and NW can really benefit from that.

#26 Posted by BatWatch (2831 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice work Nathaniel. Very nice indeed. I'm a little jealous right not, actually. (grins)

Before I comment on all your good thoughts, let me add the biggest change that has hacked me off which I cannot believe you left out. Dick is no longer Bruce's son or ward. He had a Terry McGinnis style relationship with him where he just helped out. This undermines Dick's attitude towards Dick as his father. He is now just an employed/mentor.

1. I had not considered that Dick's older age messed up his role as the original boy sidekick. That is very true. I mean, technically, he is still young, but there is a big difference between thirteen and sixteen. Still, as you say, that is one of the smallest changes.

2. The time line has got to be abandoned. It simple does not work. I can't believe that DC has messed up this much continuity for the sake of making Batman younger. Who cares if Batman is twenty-eight or thirty-eight? Would that cause one person to change their mind about whether they would or would not pick up the comic?

It destroys the Bruce and Dick relationship and wipes out their history.

3. Yeah, the lack of Titans does hurt. A lot. And it is a completely unnecessary change too as far as I can tell. James Tynion IV is taking over RHATO, and he says he will be restoring some of Roy's past relationships with other heroes, so maybe we will see a quasi-Titan team history?

4. I never saw the closeness between Dick and Donna that you speak of, but I am not a huge Teen Titans fan. I like them, but I have not had the chance to read a ton of their adventures. I have seen the relationship between Dick and Wally, and again, that hurts. Same with Arsenal though that one could still be legitimate. Oh, but Gar has appeared in The Ravagers though he has no known connection to Dick at the moment.

5. Dick not being Batman's son changes everything with Bruce. There is obviously some loss in the relationship between Dick and Jason as well, but that does not bother me much. The loss of Dick and Barbara, on the other hand, is a pretty big deal, and the lack of a Tim/Dick team up is practically criminal. To make it worse, I just read the preview to Teen Titans 16, and Tim says Jason is the closest thing he has ever had to a brother. What! Sometimes, I think Lobdell hates every Robin except for Jason.

6. I think you are overreacting on this point. It may not be necessary for Dick to have a connection to Gotham, but I do not see how it hurts anything.

7. (Spoiler) I am wondering if Haly's was truly destroyed or not. I mean, we know parts of it were, but how big is it? Is it just a big top, one roller coaster, and a Ferris wheel because that is all we saw damaged? Likewise, did the carneys die? If so, I agree that it is a complete lost of everything that has been built for the past year plus just like Raya. I hate it when writers build things just to destroy them.

At the same time, I do not think Dick gets it much worse than most heroes. Heroes are constantly reset to the status quo. It sometimes feels like it is in the very DNA of the medium.

Another thought, I criticized Nightwing #0 in my review for destroying Dick's son relationship with Bruce, and I got hammered in recommendations because of it. Who is reading Nightwing and thinking this is great stuff? My best guess is he has a lot of new fans due to Young Justice who have no knowledge of his past awesomeness. Seriously though, I don't understand the fawning over his current series by some. I think it has been a good, solid series, and I really like Higgins in terms of personality, but I hate what he or editorial are doing to Dick's past.

@KnightRise said:

Get over here

Glad you brought me over. This is interesting.

@wessaari:

I've been thinking Dick needs to go to Vegas for years now.

#27 Posted by SmoothJammin (2334 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Became Robin at 16- This is actually one of the milder examples on my list, but becoming Robin at 16 completely kills the idea of the kid sidekick, which Dick was always famous for being the first of. He was the first, and silently acknowledged as the greatest. Having been in the game for so long and trained by one of the Big 3 it was recognized that he was the one who everyone could count on to step up when the big guns failed.

It's hard to imagine a world in which the term Robin the Boy Wonder is called into question. I really don't know what to tell you lol--it stings to modern fans who have been reading New 52, can you imagine the lot who have stood by the legacy character long before our time even came!? It's hearbreaking. :( As a writer you can't possibly justify erasing the one outstanding quality Dick possessed over other sidekicks, a feat the older hero's could never hope to match. I always took pride in crediting Dicks lineage as an 8 yr old kid hero. Not many preteens can say they've been drafted into a war against crime. The beautiful thing about pre-flashpoint Dick what I loved to death about was whether as child or man, he always fit ways to juggle priorities regular people might find impossible to multitask. Social life? Check. Crime fighting? Check? Public School? Checkkk! And he still managed to squeak in some college ;P I want to know how Kyle is going to carry this over.

When you have a sinking ship there's only so many holes one can plug. At some point you have to remind yourself that these anomalies can only exist within the pages of comics. It's the way they've gone about addressing issues like the 5 year gap that baffle me, or Tim's stint as Robin, DICKS ROOTS. It says alot for the integrity of the company we invest our hard earned cash in.

2. Robin for a year- This means his relationship with Bruce is nowhere near as strong or meaningful for one thing. They were the Dynamic Duo for a year and that was it, Dick was out on his own. They were still close apparently, but just like you can't realistically think Bruce had every single one of his old adventures in the new timeline, you can't think that Dick and Bruce had the same amount of time together either, whether he was Robin or Nightwing. Having his time as Robin reduced of course also lessens the amount of time he's been active as a hero, and specifically the amount of bonds he could have formed with other heroes. Now we currently know that Dick was Batman for at least a year during which Bruce was "dead". However, we've seen no evidence that he was still a member of the Justice League during that time, or that he's ever been a member of the Justice League (And he'd previously led a variation of the team when the main group was lost in time during Obsidian Age) This again leads into my next point.

On the one hand you can dress it up and say the firstborn will always be Bruce's favorite. But I'm on the outside looking in. My stance is, you've been around this person all of 4-5 years and you trust them with your life? Yikes. The reason pre52 Robin worked so well as Batman's right hand was due to their lasting bond. They grew together in spirit. From the eyes of others heroes/villains Nightwing's credibility is at stake, and as Batwatch has pointed out on many a review our boy is struggling against throwaway villains. The lack of experience is quite evident. Being a veteran of the game pretty much summed up the backbone of his characterization. Sweeping as critical a factor l under the rug places a limiter on Dick, and to sensationalize it they want to feed us new truths about Haly's Circus shoddy past. Do us a favor. Don't. We can understand intertwining Batman/Night of Owls stories but 50 issues from now are we still going to look back and remember how predetermining Dick's fate as a Talon impacted his course of actions? It's very possible. Does it mean anything to him now, as Joker drags him to a dinner party? Absolutely not. Don't go along with something unless you're passionate about it, because now you've legitimately sketched your mark into the echelons of all the Nightwing writers before you and altered the character forever. Have I mentioned how bad I can't wait for Dick to leave Bruce's shadow? Atleast then we'll get original ideas from the man himself and not shoehorned plot devices used to further the leading man.

3. Lost his entire history with the Teen Titans- For me this is the biggest blow. Putting aside the fact that Dick's entire character basically began in the Teen Titans comics (As that's where he was fleshed out as more than just a sidekick), and the fact that a good chunk of his adventures have been with some form of the team, and the fact that working with the team was the starting point for him becoming one of the most well known and trusted heroes in the DCU (Perhaps only 2nd to Superman), DC has yet to offer anything to replace this huge gap in the character's history. All they've given us is one flashback from Kori proving that there were at least a few team ups for some version of the Wolfman/Perez era Titans. The number of heroes he met due to being a part of the team, the amount of respect he gained from it (For an example, Connor Kent once acknowledged that when Nightwing was around other heroes they immediately looked to him as the leader), and the overall impact it had on him has been erased. My next point stems directly from this one:

Losing the Titans ate away at me like a cancer. The ramifications of not including Dick on an acclaimed team like Titans left him a virtual nobody. You have to hold a certain respect for the Titans of old, they helped define the 80's and were deadlocked with X-Men in terms of popularity, surpassing them on MANY occasions. Simply put, if you are a Nightwing fan there's no way you can shrug this aside. We're talking about a team which helped launch so many of today's younger generation of heroes. So much great talent to come out of there. Wally West, Cyborg, Deathstroke(yes he was a byproduct of Teen Titans) Roy Harper, who would later go on to join the JL with Flash II, even little Damian Wayne had his share of action. Epic stuff right there, and truly worthy of recognition on anyone's resume. If you looked at any hero in the DCU it was always fun to try and arbitrarily link Grayson through them using an aquaintance, and you knew you could when you put together enough pieces of the puzzle. That my friends, was in thanks to the service he spent as a Titan.

4. Wally West and Donna Troy being thrown into limbo- As far as we know neither of these characters currently exists in the DCnU, and it is truly sad, because both were Dick's best friends. Wally like a brother, and Donna perhaps a soul mate. Them being removed from Dick's life is like Alfred being removed from Bruce's, or the Kent's from Superman's. They were fixtures in his life that lead to him growing as a person. And like with the Titan's there's been no mention of anything or anyone to fill this new hole, Gar has yet to appear, Victor's with the JLA, Tempest also has yet to make an appearance, even in his mentor's title, and Roy Harper, one of Dick's best friends and another person who he considered family, has been thrown together with Jason Todd, along with Starfire, one of the great loves of Dick's life. DC has systematically dismantled Dick's support structure, and left only the Bat Family in the place of the Titans, and to be honest i'm not surprised, because they have a history of acting as if the two (The Titans and the Bat Family) can't coexist in Dick's life, as if one has to trump the other for anything to make sense. Putting everything else aside, the problem with Dick and the Bat Family is that his relationship with them has changed as well.

Wally remains the greatest Flash that has ever lived. He was Dick's bestfriend at the same time dammit. One day he goes missing. Donna Troy meanwhile, an instrumental cog in the the well oiled machine responsible for helping power the Dick Grayson apparatus seemingly vanishes without a trace. How am I supposed to respond to both major pillars of support in Dick's life blinked out of existence so abruptly? It's infuriating at first and then you just kind of learn to settle after a few feep breaths. One day they'll be back you want to keep telling yourself...no fk that. Wally West was THE Flash. When the original died in COIE Wally found a way to throw himself together and uphold the ideals of his mentor. People say Dick graduated from Robin and became a hero in his own right but Wally actually stuck with it and made something grand of his legacy. He grew beyond the benchmarks set by his predecessor. I don't think I'll ever understand Johns' hard on for Barry and Hal, but that's ok.. as long as it's not the Flash I grew up with it doesn't look like I'm going to be spending any money on a d-bag who can blend in with the wallpaper for all I care. Poor Donna was subjected to worse. So many retcons, lost loves.. Dick was literally the only constant she had in her life. They understood each other better than anyone else.Why couldn't DC follow the pre52 blueprint and have her retire from the game for awhile? She didn't have to be a fulltime superhero, throwing her into limbo was way harsh. I miss Donna terribly, and hope we see more from her. If anyone deserves to start fresh from a blank slate it's definitely her.

5. The Bat Family- Now i've already pointed out that Dick and Bruce haven't spent nearly as much time together, and they're also closer in age now, which leads to their relationship being perceived differently by fans. However, I can at least say that it's still clear that if there's anyone Bruce considers to be his right hand man it's Dick, and even the Joker seems to think the same in the most recent event. Yet, let's look at Dick's relationships with the other members of the family. Alfred is of course a constant and will hopefully never leave Dick's life. Barbara and Dick however have had their entire history reset it seems, with no prior relationship ever having happened. Dick and Jason haven't been shown to interact much, which makes sense based on everything Jason's done, but they haven't come to blows either. Yet, Jason's taken away two of the people that were previously closest to Dick. Dick and Tim, who were once as close as brothers haven't really interacted at all, and while it's obviously not Tim's fault he's stolen part of Dick's history by now being the one to form the Teen Titans. Damian is the one member of the family who's relationship to Dick doesn't seem to have changed at all. They still respect each other, and Dick still understands Damian in a way the others don't. This is hardly enough to make up for the other losses Dick has suffered however.

I criticize Tim alot, there's no denying that. One time I dedicated a whole thread on exposing Tim's lunacy. My feelings on that matter don't take away from the emotional disconnect Dick and Tim currently share. They were awfully close at one time. DC allowed Jason to further piggyback from his brother and steal not only his close friends but his younger brother too. No shame in their game I guess. It's not only them, every member of the family has been altered indefinitely. Babs whom I tired of as being played up being Dick's star crossed lover, doesn't even represent that anymore, and never did actually. I can accept if they were partners in some period of their lives but faded away from each other. Now it's just like she's been stripped off and it hurts. In many ways Barbara Gordon helped ground Dick and taught him many life lessons. Jason is adopted no one cares. At this point the only two Robins I look forwards to reading about are Dick and Damian. Bruce's son may be a brat but man is he good. One day he'll be great, until then I hope Dick is there to instruct him every step of the way.

6. The Gray Son of Gotham- The revelation that Dick would've been a Talon had his parents not died, and that his great grandfather was a Talon, was just terrible. Stupid, unnecessary, and terrible. Dick never had any connection to Gotham before, and he didn't need one. He was from a circus family, a travelling circus, who happened to be in Gotham at the wrong time and pay for it. Now we have some type of ancient conspiracy dating back decades and for what? What does it really add to the character? I'd say nothing, and that it goes against the basis of the character. It's disgustingly similar to how the Wayne family has now always been connected to the Bat. I don't generally have a problem with the destiny angle. When written well it can lead to amazing results, but hear it just seems to be so contradictory here to the very idea of everything Dick stands for. He was never some kid fighting against destiny or trying to disprove an ancient family curse, he was a boy struck by tragedy who managed to build something great from it. My next point also touches on a problem the character's had for a long time.

The Gray-Son revelation. I'll be honest I was a huge fan of Court of Owls. Bruce had alot on his plate with these guys, and the storyline was epic. Finding out my favorite character was fated to be a Talon really drove it home. I understood the reasons why Kyle wrote it the way he did I'm just not partial to warping Nightwing's history so radically. He flipped the landscape of Haly's on it's head, affecting everyone involved in the circus. Nothing is sacred anymore lol. Dick will never hug another elephant again! New52 tampered with the fan friendly origin everyone and their mom already knew and turned it into something perverted. I suppose this was a long time in coming, they probably had this planned since Gates when the two writers delved into the history of Gotham. The point is, it's here now and being dealt with. DC has no intention of pulling the plug on the Court of Owls as they've put Talon on shelves and continued to milk the franchise. The only good I see from it is the tie to Batman and Co., noticeably Grayson, who can benefit most from facing off against the Talons/William Cobb.

7. Haley's Circus- As anyone who read the most recent issue of NIghtwing knows, Haley's Circus was destroyed by the Joker. Now, I think I can speak for everyone when I say it's not a surprise this happened. A circus in Gotham City is perhaps doomed to fail from the start. It is probably common sense that the Joker will go there at some point and screw things up as he tends to. And this is why his most recent action has absolutely no impact, yet proceeds to once again throw Dick Grayson into limbo. He's spent basically the last year of his series working on that circus, building it back up to shine some light into Gotham and make his mark. His entire series revolved around it, his supporting cast was there. He literally has nothing else besides that. Therefore, for the circus to be destroyed and his coworkers killed, the majority of what Dick has been doing since the reboot has become meaningless. It's actually quite similar to when Bludhaven had Chemo dropped onto it. Wouldn't it have truly been wonderful if the writers had taken the opposite route and instead of having the Circus destroyed, have it survive and even thrive, and then continue to build Dick's own personal universe up around it with new characters and new rouges? But we all know that Dick just can't have nice things right? Destroying the Circus is just a waste of character development, just as Raya's death was, just as Saiko's death was. Each wasn't around long enough for s to truly grow to care about them, but each could've been used to greater effect had they been kept around longer.

I can't elaborate on this one yet. Things look grim but I'm waiting on the switch, the moment where Nightwing brings it around full circle and everything suddenly makes sense. We don't know the extent of psychological trauma he's been put through, so I'm holding out faith he can do it. I don't want to believe everything he's worked so hard for was meaningless. It's a sucker punch to fans. If the solicits are any indication of what to go by, I'm not sure I want to be a member of Haly's Circus right now.

And this then touches on a problem the character's always seemed to have in his own series, the distinct lack of permanence. By that I mean that nothing ever seems to last for Dick. No supporting cast, no rogues gallery, everything for him revolves around what's going on in Bruce's life. (Not blaming Bruce, but the writers) The problem with this is that it really does make it look like Dick's only 2nd best to Bruce, as if he has nothing of his own, nothing else to do but jump in and help Bruce. The writers never seem to really want to build Dick up and give him a lasting impact. As I pointed out earlier the exact same thing happened back when Bludhaven was destroyed. He had an entire series built around this city. It was his in every sense, and everyone knew that. Then it was nuked off the face of the Earth, and Dick's entire life went with it. From there he was left jumping around till he settled in New York, and then finally went back to Gotham when the Black Glove started acting up, and he's been there ever since. I don't have a problem with him being in Gotham. I think it opens up the possibility for some interesting story opportunities, but if Dick's never going to be able to carve out his own little corner, where he can have his own thing going on and doesn't constantly have to deal with Bruce, then he needs to leave and go find some other city to set up in. A place where the writers can hopefully start to really build the character back up to his former greatness. So, thoughts?

According to sources, the next arc is going to take place away from Batman. There will be little mention of Bruce and callbacks to his Dynamic Duo days are going to be few and far between. In part 2 of Fatman smodcast Kyle told Kevin Smith he was going to use this time to build up a new villain for Dick(one he said was going to stick around). You should really check out the podcast man it's informative as hell, I was entertained the entire time. I'm not sure if you noticed the leaked JLI photos also, Dick's going to be on a team featuring Batgirl, Hawkman, Booster Gold, Shazam, Black Canary and Red Tornado. From the looks of things, he'll probably be relocating somewhere else in the DCU which is something I know you've been clamoring for. If true, things can only get better for Nightwing. I've said it from the beginning, I cannot wait for this crossover to wrap up. Nightwing has fought hard enough for the right to headline his own stories. Dick's days of getting his teeth knocked out by Batman are quickly coming to a close. He is the breakthrough star of the batfamily after all. We're on the verge of witnessing an awesome new direction, and thank God b/c I for one, am all circus'ed out. There's no use in refuting the reboot cause it's here to stay. What we can do is come together as fans and voice our opinions like adults, in a civil manner and assess what works for us and what sucks.Thanks for putting this together, easily a 5 star thread!

#28 Posted by havoc1201 (521 posts) - - Show Bio

I am enjoying the New Nightwing i do wish they kept a lot of his past like his and Tim's relationship and the teen titans past but hopefully we will see Dick grow as a hero, Higgins loves the character and DC has big plans for Nightwing to take him out of Batmans Shadow bc before when you mentioned Dick or Nightwing people thought "he use to be Robin" Higgins wants people to see him as his own man and yes we lost a lot but until we get more info on his past with future stories we do not know for sure just how much of his past we have lost, so i am going to give it time and see where it goes.

#29 Posted by dicksihavestudied (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Generally, I agree - especially with the parts about Dick's relationships. The relationships are, in fact, the primary reason I read the comics. DC has such great characters with such great connections to each other. Dick, in particular, had an amazing web of friends and family. Why would you mess with that? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I am definitely with on the Dick and Bruce relationship. In fact, I actually joined Comic Vine (and stopped lurking) so that I could tell him I agreed with his review of Nightwing #0 (and so did a lot of other people on Tumblr).

Dick being Bruce's ward was such an intrinsic part of the character. Heck, it was an intrinsic part of our culture! The first time I ever ran across the term "ward" was in connection with "Bruce Wayne and his youthful ward." I'm saddened DC changed that, for seemingly no apparent reason, when it takes so much away from the character. I try to console myself with the scenes from Batman #11 ("I didn't save you, you saved me") and Nightwing #16 ("you make Batman weakest"). But with eliminating the ward-guardian/father-son distinction and making the two closer in age, it's like DC wants us to make them a couple. Wertham would rise from his grave and shout, "I told you so!" ;)

The loss of the Titans sucks, but I choose to pretend it happened unofficially. There's no excuse for Wally and Donna being expunged, though - both were awesome. The Dick and Donna relationship was particularly great because it was a true male-female friendship that wasn't sexual (I know the writers thought about it, but it never happened). You don't see enough male-female friendships in media.

Perhaps more disturbing is the stuff about Tim and Jason being so close. What?! That doesn't make sense for so many reasons. Is DC trying to pair the brothers off? Dick and Damian and Jason and Tim? Was it so wrong for Dick to be close to both Tim and Damian? That was a reflection of his character as the more emotionally-open Bat-dude.

It's honestly as though some higher-up at DC finally googled Dick Grayson, saw the articles arguing "Dick Grayson is the center of the DC universe," and thought "can't have that!" On the surface, Dick is still a bamf and an irreplaceable member of the Bat-family. But underneath, DC is chipping away at the foundations. I'm on to you, DC. Dan Didio, will you never stop?

I understand why you guys want Dick to leave Gotham, and it does make sense. I didn't mind him being in Gotham because it meant more father-son (or whatever it is) interaction with Bruce and more appearances in the Bat-books overall. I saw he's going to be on a team soon, which should be good. However, I kind of wish they would do a Nightwing: Brave and the Bold series wherein Nightwing trots around the DC universe and teams up with everybody, one at a time. Bats did it for years in the 1970s and 1980s. Nightwing might not be a big enough name to hold down the title (I think he could, but DC might not), but it would be an excellent way to establish him as the center of the DCU. Plus, it would be fun!

Finally, I'm kind of ambivalent about the Court of Owls. I thought it was a fine story (I'm a fan of exploring the past), but I'm afraid it means Dick is no longer part Romani. I realize that was a later addition to the character, but it was nice because it gave an added smidgen of diversity to the Bat-crew.

#30 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

it is no secret that DC has commited a great crime against Dick Grayson, most notably theft. Everything great about Dick Grayson has been stolen and given away to other family members. Tim gets the titans, Babs gets the sibling bond, Jason gets Arsenal and Starfire, Bats gains youth in exchange for dicks experince/bond. everything of any value has been given to the Bat family or is part of Limbo now. Im sorry if you think this run has been even 10% of Dick Graysons former runs your either naive or a fool. For anyone that thinks this run is great name one, ONE, thing that has been a solid contribution to Dicks character in the Last 16 issues. the only half-ass attempt at being interesting was the grey-son thing, but that two was overshadowed by Bats "brother" which was totally unneeded. has done a great job listing alot of the things that have been stolen from Dick and let me just add two more to this already exhausting list 1. Deathstroke-Dicks greatest villian is now in the realm of the Red Hood, if you read RHATO 16 ull see that Deathstroke has been placed in their camp. I cant even express in words the feelings this brings up mostly anger, disgust, and disapointment. 2. Pride- Dick has no pride anymore. hes a carbon copy of bats with no interesting stories or anything that makes him unique. the greatest example of this is Dick constantly getting his a$$ kicked in his own comic. Can anyone name a single villain that Dick has beat in a straight up fight? no you cant there is always a trick up his sleve or a way of outsmarting his opponet but he has yet to go toe to toe with anyone and win. Im sorry but a Hero getting his a$$ constantly kicked in his own comic is humiliating.

#31 Posted by Nightwingdg (83 posts) - - Show Bio

In Higgins we trust.

#32 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: First off, I understand your concern and passion. You love this character (and I do too) and feel personally slighted by many of the moves made in the New 52.

It's going to be ok. Nightwing has changed before and he'll change again. The Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths is your (and my) iconic Dick Grayson and that's awesome. That's the era where I discovered and grew to love the character. All of the stories in your collection still exist and are still fun to read.

This new era will be definitive for someone else. You can either choose to jump in and enjoy the ride or not,, but everything you enjoyed still exists.

#33 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: First off, I understand your concern and passion. You love this character (and I do too) and feel personally slighted by many of the moves made in the New 52.

It's going to be ok. Nightwing has changed before and he'll change again. The Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths is your (and my) iconic Dick Grayson and that's awesome. That's the era where I discovered and grew to love the character. All of the stories in your collection still exist and are still fun to read.

This new era will be definitive for someone else. You can either choose to jump in and enjoy the ride or not,, but everything you enjoyed still exists.

Even pre-crisis nightwing/Dick Grayson had the Titans and the leadership respect among the sidekicks and former sidekicks. This isn't a pre-crisis/post crisis sort of change to his character.

#34 Posted by SmoothJammin (2334 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: Be patient. Good things take time..

#35 Posted by BatWatch (2831 posts) - - Show Bio

@dicksihavestudied:

Yeah, I agree that Dick's relationships were the strength of his character, and in many ways, the strength of comics in general, but DC seemed to think that the complexities of the relationships bogged things down while I personally feel that it gave comics their richness.

I'm going to have to get over to Tumbler at some point and try to cash in on Dick-heads...hmmm, I just kind of made up that term on the fly, but it didn't come out that well. I guess I should have stuck with Wing-Nuts.

Whose Wertham? Is that the guy who accused Batman and Robin as being lovers?

I cannot imagine why DC allowed that to change. It was a horrible decision. I also don't know why Higgins would have done it. I've seen and read interviews with Higgins and he seems to be a real nice guy who really loved Grayson, but I'm just not feeling most of his stories. They are okay, and...that's it.

It seems pretty difficult to have male/female friendships in real life. I remember my parents told me about that when I was a teenager, and I thought they were crazy old fogies, but I've found it seems to be true over time. It seems that almost all of my friendships with girls have only lasted if they are extensions of other friendships with a guy. Otherwise, romance has a way of creeping in even when you don't want it to.

Anyway, ignoring that tangent, I agree...the Titans happened unofficially until some writer gets around to pooping on my fantasy world.

I don't know what to make of the whole Jason/Tim thing. I actually like what Lobdell has built between the two, but you can have a brotherly friendship between the two without expunging everything between Tim and Dick.

I can see a Nightwing Brave and the Bold working. The difficult part would be how to get the right tone for the book. The old Brave and Bold was strictly Silver Age material (well, bronze age too), and when they tried to revive the series a few years ago, it sucked.

#36 Posted by Joygirl (20075 posts) - - Show Bio

QQ moar.

#37 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

: Can't wait until the weekend to add to this. TT16 was like a kick in the gut to me

#38 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

I agree with alot of what you said, besies 6 and partially 7. I think Dick has been watered down to a batman-lite, and Higgins has hinted that Dick is getting out of the city. This is great news, as he can be his own person, interact with different characters, and even try and start to form an alliance with characters that he once had (primarily if Wally and Donna come back). I think the way Dick responded to his family's history makes up for your point 6. He didnt care, nor should he care. He became his own person, (even though he really is second best to batman), but he forged something out for himself. I think with haly's gone he can finally move on, but i think its destruction matters, because it will mean that Dick wasnt meant to stay in Gotham. I 100% agree that Raya and Saiko could have had more of an importance if they hadn't died, and i was really looking forward to seeing Raya again, but now that she is dead I am really bummed. Same with Saiko, he could have been a huge addition to Dick's rogue's gallery, but since Saiko was meant to be a Talon the Court could find him and revive him with their serum. One could only hope.

on your other points, I couldnt agree more, but that is more of the company to blame than the writer. The writer had a time frame to work with, and it was very small and strict. I would have preferred it to be 10 years instead of 5, that way Bruce is still older, has more time with each Robin, and grows attached to them with the siginificant time. 5 years was a really bad idea, because now we dont have certain relationships that we cherished in past continuity. Tim's lack of appearance in the Bat-family is due to him being in the Titans, and frankly he should ahve more time than that. Giving him his own title could have benefitted his relations with the Bat-family, but instead DC had to make room for Firestorm, Grifter, and freaking Men of War. meaning pointless books that should have been meant for better characters within the DC universe such as Wally West, Donna Troy, Tempest, Steph Brown, Cass Cain, Mia Dearden, and any others that deserve more than the treatment that they have recieved.

Dick's history within the New 52, is still significant even though it isnt ideal. Ive loved the series for the msot part, besides the issues of late without counting DOTF. The Paragon arc was pointless, and the Lady Shiva had promise but was handled badly. heres to hoping that 2013 can give Dick a better environment, and a life on his own with his own characters, villains, and experiences.

It's great news that Dick's getting out of the city, because Higgins has made it very clear he can't write an excellent Nightwing in Gotham City. To me, there's no reason that he couldn't have done the same for Nightwing in Gotham that was originally done for him in Bludhaven, where an entire universe was basically created for Dick. He found his own thing to do, met numerous people (And Gotham is one of the most well known comic cities and is quite large, there are far more people than just those that are part of Bruce's main cast), and built up something of a Rogue's Gallery. Since the beginning, i've been saying that's exactly what needed to happen again, especially if Dick was going to be in the same city as Bruce. Instead what I feared most happened. He became too linked to Bruce's character, caught up in events that were happening in Bruce's life and not focusing enough on his own. The circus was the one thing that went against this, and as long as it was around I could at least hold out some hope for Dick in Gotham, because I honestly do believe that he and Bruce can both reside there and still not stagnate as characters. With Haley's gone though, and pretty much everything Dick's been focusing on gone, I think it's just best to move him to another city again. I still believe he can work as a character in Gotham, but I don't think that now's that time.

That's a good point on the Gray Son thing, as when Dick found out he stayed true to character and basically said "Screw destiny".

Don't get me wrong, I have my complaints, but I don't think Higgins is an awful writer. I've read his run so far and have enjoyed various parts of it. I understand that a lot of these changes were above his head (As he's not Morrison) and he just had to accept them and then do his best.

The problem is that his history is now basically solely significant because of his connections to Batman, instead of his connections to other people, and that is something I think goes against the way the character's been written since...probably the New Teen Titans era, which makes sense since it now no longer happened lol

@X9 said:

@wessaari said:

Dick's history within the New 52, is still significant even though it isnt ideal.

This. Plus, I already expect things to be different with the New 52.

Second...to be really, really honest, the two things that are still akward to me are: the fact that Tim said Jason was the closest thing he's had of a brother in his entire life, what proves his relationship with Dick no longer exists and the Grayson's death when Dick was 16. I liked to have Bruce as a real father figure to him. However, nth I can't adapt to.

Last but not least...really guys? You wanned to see more of Raya and Saiko? Cause I thought that was ok at its best...

Yeah i'm no longer able to really see that father son bond either. At best it's more like them being partners now than anything, and that's a real shame.

I think Raya and Saiko both had potential, but putting that aside they were some of the few characters to be introduced that had nothing to do with Bruce in any way, and that's something I think Dick always needs. That's why a lot of the people introduced during his time in Bludhaven worked so well for me. They were Nightwing characters, not Batman characters.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Nightwingdg said:

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

The current Nightwing is merely Batman lite,DC is hellbent on making him their Daredevil and they are failing spectacularly.He's just a poor mans version of both those characters at this point,you think that's god send?

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Also DC keeps interchanging the qualities of the Robins,you know take something from one and give it to the other.

Dick no longer has history with the Titans,his best friends are gone or are buddies with Jason flipping Todd,even Deathstroke is going after Jason.He even wears red like the rest of them.

But the thing that personally gets me is the tone and direction of the Batman line.Instead of giving the characters their own unique theme they are instead resorting to cheap slasher flick tones,and ofcourse like all slasher flicks the villain has the ability to appear out of nowhere,make the hero crap in their pants etc.I HATE it,the entire Batman line is merely doing what Snyder does,it's like their own creativity was extinguished when Snyder came on board.

I dont even wanna talk about the terrible crossovers,Batman stops the Court of Owls Dick merely beats a Talon.Joker own Dick and everyone else and now we're supposed to see the conclusion to the story in Batman#17, why should I read Nightwing then?

Dick is merely a sidekick now,a sidekick with a cool name and look,a sidekick who gives you the impression he's independent but at the end of the day he's merely a stepping stone.

Yeah, I fail to see how the current Dick Grayson is a godsend compared to where he was previously. Dick getting to be Batman was a godsend. Getting to form and work with his own Justice League was a godsend. Both made it very clear that he was a major player in the DCU and that he could handle anything Bruce could, and that if push ever truly came to shove Dick could step up and not only take over for Bruce, but protect Gotham on his own.

I know and it annoys me to no end. I have no problem with Jason Todd, I don't like Tim's character at the moment, but Pre-Flashpoint I honestly had no problem with him, but I hate how Dick's little "brother's" keep taking aspects of his character. Not their fault obviously, but it's annoying. That's the one reason I hate that Dick's now wearing red. It makes him even more similar to the rest of his siblings, and while a bond is nice, I thought that Bruce summed it up perfectly when he told them to stop bickering and that they were all connected by their time as Robin. That to me gets to the heart of the matter. They had enough similarities as it was. They didn't need to start wearing the same color. That just begins to make them clones of each other and take away things that make them interesting. I even had a similar reaction when it was revealed Tim wasn't Robin, but always Red Robin. That was just one of those completely unnecessary changes that really served no purpose, and I feel completely missed out on the point of the Robins and why they're all different.

Yep, they're all very similar right now. Another reason that i'm disappointed that everyone's gotten so caught up in this Joker debacle.

Exactly. Dick's history is solely tied to Bruce now, and he really has nothing else.

@wessaari said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Nightwingdg said:

Are you kidding me?

I've been a Dick Grayson fan for years. This new 52 relaunch is the best thing to happen to his character since putting on the Nightwing costume in 1985!

Kyle Higgins writing this character is godsend.

The current Nightwing is merely Batman lite,DC is hellbent on making him their Daredevil and they are failing spectacularly.He's just a poor mans version of both those characters at this point,you think that's god send?

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Also DC keeps interchanging the qualities of the Robins,you know take something from one and give it to the other.

Dick no longer has history with the Titans,his best friends are gone or are buddies with Jason flipping Todd,even Deathstroke is going after Jason.He even wears red like the rest of them.

But the thing that personally gets me is the tone and direction of the Batman line.Instead of giving the characters their own unique theme they are instead resorting to cheap slasher flick tones,and ofcourse like all slasher flicks the villain has the ability to appear out of nowhere,make the hero crap in their pants etc.I HATE it,the entire Batman line is merely doing what Snyder does,it's like their own creativity was extinguished when Snyder came on board.

I dont even wanna talk about the terrible crossovers,Batman stops the Court of Owls Dick merely beats a Talon.Joker own Dick and everyone else and now we're supposed to see the conclusion to the story in Batman#17, why should I read Nightwing then?

Dick is merely a sidekick now,a sidekick with a cool name and look,a sidekick who gives you the impression he's independent but at the end of the day he's merely a stepping stone.

i think thats why we need Dick out of Gotham, and though he has been played victim to crossovers, Higgins has been dropping hints that NW's direction is changing and a new setting might be in the works. Though I ahve enjoyed most of the series, I think he has been played second fidle to Batman. I think Snyder wanted to make the line a huge force in DC, and succeeded where batman is concerned, but we really do need to have a break with crossovers. The other books need to develop their lines and try to make them memorable instead of Batman making them memorable. Granted I like what Snyder is doing, and even though he has taken hold of a most titles, i like the idea of DOTF. That being said, one book should not dictate everything else in that certain line, and once this is done the books need to really to do their own thing, and NW can really benefit from that.

He has. He keeps getting wrapped up in Batman's events instead of his own. Him and all the other Bat characters are planets revolving around Bruce's sun, and it sucks. If the only way this can end is for him to leave Gotham then I agree we should all let him leave and wish him the best. And given the nature of their relationship now it's probably also best if he and Bruce have a falling out and don't communicate for a while.

@BatWatch said:

Very nice work Nathaniel. Very nice indeed. I'm a little jealous right not, actually. (grins)

Before I comment on all your good thoughts, let me add the biggest change that has hacked me off which I cannot believe you left out. Dick is no longer Bruce's son or ward. He had a Terry McGinnis style relationship with him where he just helped out. This undermines Dick's attitude towards Dick as his father. He is now just an employed/mentor.

1. I had not considered that Dick's older age messed up his role as the original boy sidekick. That is very true. I mean, technically, he is still young, but there is a big difference between thirteen and sixteen. Still, as you say, that is one of the smallest changes.

2. The time line has got to be abandoned. It simple does not work. I can't believe that DC has messed up this much continuity for the sake of making Batman younger. Who cares if Batman is twenty-eight or thirty-eight? Would that cause one person to change their mind about whether they would or would not pick up the comic?

It destroys the Bruce and Dick relationship and wipes out their history.

3. Yeah, the lack of Titans does hurt. A lot. And it is a completely unnecessary change too as far as I can tell. James Tynion IV is taking over RHATO, and he says he will be restoring some of Roy's past relationships with other heroes, so maybe we will see a quasi-Titan team history?

4. I never saw the closeness between Dick and Donna that you speak of, but I am not a huge Teen Titans fan. I like them, but I have not had the chance to read a ton of their adventures. I have seen the relationship between Dick and Wally, and again, that hurts. Same with Arsenal though that one could still be legitimate. Oh, but Gar has appeared in The Ravagers though he has no known connection to Dick at the moment.

5. Dick not being Batman's son changes everything with Bruce. There is obviously some loss in the relationship between Dick and Jason as well, but that does not bother me much. The loss of Dick and Barbara, on the other hand, is a pretty big deal, and the lack of a Tim/Dick team up is practically criminal. To make it worse, I just read the preview to Teen Titans 16, and Tim says Jason is the closest thing he has ever had to a brother. What! Sometimes, I think Lobdell hates every Robin except for Jason.

6. I think you are overreacting on this point. It may not be necessary for Dick to have a connection to Gotham, but I do not see how it hurts anything.

7. (Spoiler) I am wondering if Haly's was truly destroyed or not. I mean, we know parts of it were, but how big is it? Is it just a big top, one roller coaster, and a Ferris wheel because that is all we saw damaged? Likewise, did the carneys die? If so, I agree that it is a complete lost of everything that has been built for the past year plus just like Raya. I hate it when writers build things just to destroy them.

At the same time, I do not think Dick gets it much worse than most heroes. Heroes are constantly reset to the status quo. It sometimes feels like it is in the very DNA of the medium.

Another thought, I criticized Nightwing #0 in my review for destroying Dick's son relationship with Bruce, and I got hammered in recommendations because of it. Who is reading Nightwing and thinking this is great stuff? My best guess is he has a lot of new fans due to Young Justice who have no knowledge of his past awesomeness. Seriously though, I don't understand the fawning over his current series by some. I think it has been a good, solid series, and I really like Higgins in terms of personality, but I hate what he or editorial are doing to Dick's past.

@KnightRise said:

Get over here

Glad you brought me over. This is interesting.

@wessaari:

I've been thinking Dick needs to go to Vegas for years now.

Thank you sir.

1. That's very true, but that's a result of him having become Robin at 16. Him being older effects a lot of aspects of his life, just like the fact that time's parents are now alive effects him.

2. No it doesn't. The timeline was a bad idea to begin with, and clearly wasn't given the proper amount of planning. Damian's existence alone makes it stupid. I don't know how big a Spider-Man fan anyone else here is, but DC screwing up the timeline to make Bruce younger is extremely similar to Marvel separating Peter and Mary Jane because they thought people couldn't relate to the character if he were married. In short, it's stupid and has nothing to back it up. In universe, Bruce's age has really never been an issue, so I have no idea why they'd go so far to make him younger.

3. IDK maybe. Again, we at least know he's worked with some variation of the New Teen Titans in the past, as we saw Kori's flashback and Roy mentioned various other members to Kori.

4. It's all from the New Teen Titans era, and then continued mostly through every other Titans series. It was never a huge part of the Nightwing series, because one of the major flaws of every Nightwing series has been that the writer always downplays Dick's connection to the Titans, in favor of his connection to Bruce. The Titans will hardly, if ever, appear in it. That being said the loss of Wally does hurt, especially because not even the character is still around. I understand that when they decided to get rid of these two characters they weren't specifically thinking about the effect it would have on Dick, but they should have been. Heck, that's the reason Dick was considered to be the person who would be killed off in Infinite Crisis, because of him being one of the most well known and trusted people in the world, and the massive effect his death would have on everyone. Thinking about how all the different characters are connected is what leads to major changes being made.

5. Jason being closer to Tim than Dick just kills me to be honest. It's one of those things that just doesn't even make any sense. I do really hate that he's lost his past with Barbara, as that's another person who made him into who he was.

6. It's a personal opinion thing. It adds to the character's history, but I think unnecessary changes are bad changes. It's an if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality.

7. Destruction of a life can lead to growth, and many people have said this can push Dick to finally leave Gotham. It's true, but my problem is that it wasn't necessary to be destroyed, it really just makes what Dick was doing pointless, and it was again so expected that it has no impact. This is the second time that Dick's life has been destroyed basically (The first being Bludhaven) and for all the talk of how great a thing it is, after that place was destroyed Dick spent a good amount of time bouncing around without any set goal or purpose in mind, and i'd say that's when the character really started to drag a little.

Agreed, I can't understand how people can read this and act like it's some Golden Age for the character. Solid writing to be sure, but not much else.

@SmoothJammin said:

1. Became Robin at 16- This is actually one of the milder examples on my list, but becoming Robin at 16 completely kills the idea of the kid sidekick, which Dick was always famous for being the first of. He was the first, and silently acknowledged as the greatest. Having been in the game for so long and trained by one of the Big 3 it was recognized that he was the one who everyone could count on to step up when the big guns failed.

It's hard to imagine a world in which the term Robin the Boy Wonder is called into question. I really don't know what to tell you lol--it stings to modern fans who have been reading New 52, can you imagine the lot who have stood by the legacy character long before our time even came!? It's hearbreaking. :( As a writer you can't possibly justify erasing the one outstanding quality Dick possessed over other sidekicks, a feat the older hero's could never hope to match. I always took pride in crediting Dicks lineage as an 8 yr old kid hero. Not many preteens can say they've been drafted into a war against crime. The beautiful thing about pre-flashpoint Dick what I loved to death about was whether as child or man, he always fit ways to juggle priorities regular people might find impossible to multitask. Social life? Check. Crime fighting? Check? Public School? Checkkk! And he still managed to squeak in some college ;P I want to know how Kyle is going to carry this over.

When you have a sinking ship there's only so many holes one can plug. At some point you have to remind yourself that these anomalies can only exist within the pages of comics. It's the way they've gone about addressing issues like the 5 year gap that baffle me, or Tim's stint as Robin, DICKS ROOTS. It says alot for the integrity of the company we invest our hard earned cash in.

2. Robin for a year- This means his relationship with Bruce is nowhere near as strong or meaningful for one thing. They were the Dynamic Duo for a year and that was it, Dick was out on his own. They were still close apparently, but just like you can't realistically think Bruce had every single one of his old adventures in the new timeline, you can't think that Dick and Bruce had the same amount of time together either, whether he was Robin or Nightwing. Having his time as Robin reduced of course also lessens the amount of time he's been active as a hero, and specifically the amount of bonds he could have formed with other heroes. Now we currently know that Dick was Batman for at least a year during which Bruce was "dead". However, we've seen no evidence that he was still a member of the Justice League during that time, or that he's ever been a member of the Justice League (And he'd previously led a variation of the team when the main group was lost in time during Obsidian Age) This again leads into my next point.

On the one hand you can dress it up and say the firstborn will always be Bruce's favorite. But I'm on the outside looking in. My stance is, you've been around this person all of 4-5 years and you trust them with your life? Yikes. The reason pre52 Robin worked so well as Batman's right hand was due to their lasting bond. They grew together in spirit. From the eyes of others heroes/villains Nightwing's credibility is at stake, and as Batwatch has pointed out on many a review our boy is struggling against throwaway villains. The lack of experience is quite evident. Being a veteran of the game pretty much summed up the backbone of his characterization. Sweeping as critical a factor l under the rug places a limiter on Dick, and to sensationalize it they want to feed us new truths about Haly's Circus shoddy past. Do us a favor. Don't. We can understand intertwining Batman/Night of Owls stories but 50 issues from now are we still going to look back and remember how predetermining Dick's fate as a Talon impacted his course of actions? It's very possible. Does it mean anything to him now, as Joker drags him to a dinner party? Absolutely not. Don't go along with something unless you're passionate about it, because now you've legitimately sketched your mark into the echelons of all the Nightwing writers before you and altered the character forever. Have I mentioned how bad I can't wait for Dick to leave Bruce's shadow? Atleast then we'll get original ideas from the man himself and not shoehorned plot devices used to further the leading man.

3. Lost his entire history with the Teen Titans- For me this is the biggest blow. Putting aside the fact that Dick's entire character basically began in the Teen Titans comics (As that's where he was fleshed out as more than just a sidekick), and the fact that a good chunk of his adventures have been with some form of the team, and the fact that working with the team was the starting point for him becoming one of the most well known and trusted heroes in the DCU (Perhaps only 2nd to Superman), DC has yet to offer anything to replace this huge gap in the character's history. All they've given us is one flashback from Kori proving that there were at least a few team ups for some version of the Wolfman/Perez era Titans. The number of heroes he met due to being a part of the team, the amount of respect he gained from it (For an example, Connor Kent once acknowledged that when Nightwing was around other heroes they immediately looked to him as the leader), and the overall impact it had on him has been erased. My next point stems directly from this one:

Losing the Titans ate away at me like a cancer. The ramifications of not including Dick on an acclaimed team like Titans left him a virtual nobody. You have to hold a certain respect for the Titans of old, they helped define the 80's and were deadlocked with X-Men in terms of popularity, surpassing them on MANY occasions. Simply put, if you are a Nightwing fan there's no way you can shrug this aside. We're talking about a team which helped launch so many of today's younger generation of heroes. So much great talent to come out of there. Wally West, Cyborg, Deathstroke(yes he was a byproduct of Teen Titans) Roy Harper, who would later go on to join the JL with Flash II, even little Damian Wayne had his share of action. Epic stuff right there, and truly worthy of recognition on anyone's resume. If you looked at any hero in the DCU it was always fun to try and arbitrarily link Grayson through them using an aquaintance, and you knew you could when you put together enough pieces of the puzzle. That my friends, was in thanks to the service he spent as a Titan.

4. Wally West and Donna Troy being thrown into limbo- As far as we know neither of these characters currently exists in the DCnU, and it is truly sad, because both were Dick's best friends. Wally like a brother, and Donna perhaps a soul mate. Them being removed from Dick's life is like Alfred being removed from Bruce's, or the Kent's from Superman's. They were fixtures in his life that lead to him growing as a person. And like with the Titan's there's been no mention of anything or anyone to fill this new hole, Gar has yet to appear, Victor's with the JLA, Tempest also has yet to make an appearance, even in his mentor's title, and Roy Harper, one of Dick's best friends and another person who he considered family, has been thrown together with Jason Todd, along with Starfire, one of the great loves of Dick's life. DC has systematically dismantled Dick's support structure, and left only the Bat Family in the place of the Titans, and to be honest i'm not surprised, because they have a history of acting as if the two (The Titans and the Bat Family) can't coexist in Dick's life, as if one has to trump the other for anything to make sense. Putting everything else aside, the problem with Dick and the Bat Family is that his relationship with them has changed as well.

Wally remains the greatest Flash that has ever lived. He was Dick's bestfriend at the same time dammit. One day he goes missing. Donna Troy meanwhile, an instrumental cog in the the well oiled machine responsible for helping power the Dick Grayson apparatus seemingly vanishes without a trace. How am I supposed to respond to both major pillars of support in Dick's life blinked out of existence so abruptly? It's infuriating at first and then you just kind of learn to settle after a few feep breaths. One day they'll be back you want to keep telling yourself...no fk that. Wally West was THE Flash. When the original died in COIE Wally found a way to throw himself together and uphold the ideals of his mentor. People say Dick graduated from Robin and became a hero in his own right but Wally actually stuck with it and made something grand of his legacy. He grew beyond the benchmarks set by his predecessor. I don't think I'll ever understand Johns' hard on for Barry and Hal, but that's ok.. as long as it's not the Flash I grew up with it doesn't look like I'm going to be spending any money on a d-bag who can blend in with the wallpaper for all I care. Poor Donna was subjected to worse. So many retcons, lost loves.. Dick was literally the only constant she had in her life. They understood each other better than anyone else.Why couldn't DC follow the pre52 blueprint and have her retire from the game for awhile? She didn't have to be a fulltime superhero, throwing her into limbo was way harsh. I miss Donna terribly, and hope we see more from her. If anyone deserves to start fresh from a blank slate it's definitely her.

5. The Bat Family- Now i've already pointed out that Dick and Bruce haven't spent nearly as much time together, and they're also closer in age now, which leads to their relationship being perceived differently by fans. However, I can at least say that it's still clear that if there's anyone Bruce considers to be his right hand man it's Dick, and even the Joker seems to think the same in the most recent event. Yet, let's look at Dick's relationships with the other members of the family. Alfred is of course a constant and will hopefully never leave Dick's life. Barbara and Dick however have had their entire history reset it seems, with no prior relationship ever having happened. Dick and Jason haven't been shown to interact much, which makes sense based on everything Jason's done, but they haven't come to blows either. Yet, Jason's taken away two of the people that were previously closest to Dick. Dick and Tim, who were once as close as brothers haven't really interacted at all, and while it's obviously not Tim's fault he's stolen part of Dick's history by now being the one to form the Teen Titans. Damian is the one member of the family who's relationship to Dick doesn't seem to have changed at all. They still respect each other, and Dick still understands Damian in a way the others don't. This is hardly enough to make up for the other losses Dick has suffered however.

I criticize Tim alot, there's no denying that. One time I dedicated a whole thread on exposing Tim's lunacy. My feelings on that matter don't take away from the emotional disconnect Dick and Tim currently share. They were awfully close at one time. DC allowed Jason to further piggyback from his brother and steal not only his close friends but his younger brother too. No shame in their game I guess. It's not only them, every member of the family has been altered indefinitely. Babs whom I tired of as being played up being Dick's star crossed lover, doesn't even represent that anymore, and never did actually. I can accept if they were partners in some period of their lives but faded away from each other. Now it's just like she's been stripped off and it hurts. In many ways Barbara Gordon helped ground Dick and taught him many life lessons. Jason is adopted no one cares. At this point the only two Robins I look forwards to reading about are Dick and Damian. Bruce's son may be a brat but man is he good. One day he'll be great, until then I hope Dick is there to instruct him every step of the way.

6. The Gray Son of Gotham- The revelation that Dick would've been a Talon had his parents not died, and that his great grandfather was a Talon, was just terrible. Stupid, unnecessary, and terrible. Dick never had any connection to Gotham before, and he didn't need one. He was from a circus family, a travelling circus, who happened to be in Gotham at the wrong time and pay for it. Now we have some type of ancient conspiracy dating back decades and for what? What does it really add to the character? I'd say nothing, and that it goes against the basis of the character. It's disgustingly similar to how the Wayne family has now always been connected to the Bat. I don't generally have a problem with the destiny angle. When written well it can lead to amazing results, but hear it just seems to be so contradictory here to the very idea of everything Dick stands for. He was never some kid fighting against destiny or trying to disprove an ancient family curse, he was a boy struck by tragedy who managed to build something great from it. My next point also touches on a problem the character's had for a long time.

The Gray-Son revelation. I'll be honest I was a huge fan of Court of Owls. Bruce had alot on his plate with these guys, and the storyline was epic. Finding out my favorite character was fated to be a Talon really drove it home. I understood the reasons why Kyle wrote it the way he did I'm just not partial to warping Nightwing's history so radically. He flipped the landscape of Haly's on it's head, affecting everyone involved in the circus. Nothing is sacred anymore lol. Dick will never hug another elephant again! New52 tampered with the fan friendly origin everyone and their mom already knew and turned it into something perverted. I suppose this was a long time in coming, they probably had this planned since Gates when the two writers delved into the history of Gotham. The point is, it's here now and being dealt with. DC has no intention of pulling the plug on the Court of Owls as they've put Talon on shelves and continued to milk the franchise. The only good I see from it is the tie to Batman and Co., noticeably Grayson, who can benefit most from facing off against the Talons/William Cobb.

7. Haley's Circus- As anyone who read the most recent issue of NIghtwing knows, Haley's Circus was destroyed by the Joker. Now, I think I can speak for everyone when I say it's not a surprise this happened. A circus in Gotham City is perhaps doomed to fail from the start. It is probably common sense that the Joker will go there at some point and screw things up as he tends to. And this is why his most recent action has absolutely no impact, yet proceeds to once again throw Dick Grayson into limbo. He's spent basically the last year of his series working on that circus, building it back up to shine some light into Gotham and make his mark. His entire series revolved around it, his supporting cast was there. He literally has nothing else besides that. Therefore, for the circus to be destroyed and his coworkers killed, the majority of what Dick has been doing since the reboot has become meaningless. It's actually quite similar to when Bludhaven had Chemo dropped onto it. Wouldn't it have truly been wonderful if the writers had taken the opposite route and instead of having the Circus destroyed, have it survive and even thrive, and then continue to build Dick's own personal universe up around it with new characters and new rouges? But we all know that Dick just can't have nice things right? Destroying the Circus is just a waste of character development, just as Raya's death was, just as Saiko's death was. Each wasn't around long enough for s to truly grow to care about them, but each could've been used to greater effect had they been kept around longer.

I can't elaborate on this one yet. Things look grim but I'm waiting on the switch, the moment where Nightwing brings it around full circle and everything suddenly makes sense. We don't know the extent of psychological trauma he's been put through, so I'm holding out faith he can do it. I don't want to believe everything he's worked so hard for was meaningless. It's a sucker punch to fans. If the solicits are any indication of what to go by, I'm not sure I want to be a member of Haly's Circus right now.

And this then touches on a problem the character's always seemed to have in his own series, the distinct lack of permanence. By that I mean that nothing ever seems to last for Dick. No supporting cast, no rogues gallery, everything for him revolves around what's going on in Bruce's life. (Not blaming Bruce, but the writers) The problem with this is that it really does make it look like Dick's only 2nd best to Bruce, as if he has nothing of his own, nothing else to do but jump in and help Bruce. The writers never seem to really want to build Dick up and give him a lasting impact. As I pointed out earlier the exact same thing happened back when Bludhaven was destroyed. He had an entire series built around this city. It was his in every sense, and everyone knew that. Then it was nuked off the face of the Earth, and Dick's entire life went with it. From there he was left jumping around till he settled in New York, and then finally went back to Gotham when the Black Glove started acting up, and he's been there ever since. I don't have a problem with him being in Gotham. I think it opens up the possibility for some interesting story opportunities, but if Dick's never going to be able to carve out his own little corner, where he can have his own thing going on and doesn't constantly have to deal with Bruce, then he needs to leave and go find some other city to set up in. A place where the writers can hopefully start to really build the character back up to his former greatness. So, thoughts?

According to sources, the next arc is going to take place away from Batman. There will be little mention of Bruce and callbacks to his Dynamic Duo days are going to be few and far between. In part 2 of Fatman smodcast Kyle told Kevin Smith he was going to use this time to build up a new villain for Dick(one he said was going to stick around). You should really check out the podcast man it's informative as hell, I was entertained the entire time. I'm not sure if you noticed the leaked JLI photos also, Dick's going to be on a team featuring Batgirl, Hawkman, Booster Gold, Shazam, Black Canary and Red Tornado. From the looks of things, he'll probably be relocating somewhere else in the DCU which is something I know you've been clamoring for. If true, things can only get better for Nightwing. I've said it from the beginning, I cannot wait for this crossover to wrap up. Nightwing has fought hard enough for the right to headline his own stories. Dick's days of getting his teeth knocked out by Batman are quickly coming to a close. He is the breakthrough star of the batfamily after all. We're on the verge of witnessing an awesome new direction, and thank God b/c I for one, am all circus'ed out. There's no use in refuting the reboot cause it's here to stay. What we can do is come together as fans and voice our opinions like adults, in a civil manner and assess what works for us and what sucks.Thanks for putting this together, easily a 5 star thread!

Yep. One of the reasons people trusted Dick so much was due to the massive amount of experience he had, not only fighting crimes and working with one of the Big 3, but successfully leading numerous teams. Reducing the amount of years he's been active obviously has an effect on all of that. And to once again touch on his relationship with Bruce, it's also effected. Hell, Bruce's relationships with all his kids is effected to some extent because he hasn't been with them for that long really, and in Tim's case his parents are still alive, and all this of course opens the way for Damian to stand alone as the one true son of Batman (Have nothing against the kid, and actually like him a lot, but that plot idea has been shoehorned in multiple times since his introduction.

Exactly. The New Teen Titans is one of the greatest and most respected series of all time. Part of me still can't believe that it's no longer canon anymore, and that they'd then slap Nightwing in the face by not having him be a founding member of even the original Teen Titans. I've said it before and i'll say it again, The Teen Titans created Dick Grayson as he exists (Or existed anyways) today. He owes everything to that series. That's what really let him start stepping out of Bruce's shadow, standing on his own, and growing into his own character.

The biggest problem I have with Wally being gone is that out of every other sidekick (Including Dick) he was the one who stepped up, took on the mantle, held his own series, and was then allowed to surpass his mentor. In that single way, he's better than all of them. Nightwing's my favorite character, but we've all talked before about how he's never really allowed to surpass Bruce, or even appear equal when standing next to him. Donna is a character that never got nearly as much attention as she deserved, and that's all I really have to say. She always had the potential and interesting storylines, but no one ever seemed to want to give her any focus, though Roy also suffered from the same problem for a long time.

Well according to the newest TT issue Jason Todd's the closest thing Tim has to a brother...and I don't know what else to say.

I've never been a huge supported of Dick/Barbara, but they had a connection and it sucks to see it stripped away, with nothing put forward to replace it, just like his friendship with Wally, Donna, and even Roy.

With Haley's now destroyed, (At least it seems that way) the Gray Son thing doesn't really sting as much. So there's nothing I can personally say or do except wait for this Joker insanity to end and see where Nightwing goes.

Dick being on the JLI is a breath of fresh air, and something i've been hoping would happen since the New 52 started. It's a chance for him to finally get a foot out of Gotham, start making some connections, taking names, and making his presence known. Really looking forward to it.

Thanks, I really just came up with all this randomly after the last issue with Haley's. It just got to be too much and I felt that we all needed to come together and talk about it lol

@RitchieB said:

it is no secret that DC has commited a great crime against Dick Grayson, most notably theft. Everything great about Dick Grayson has been stolen and given away to other family members. Tim gets the titans, Babs gets the sibling bond, Jason gets Arsenal and Starfire, Bats gains youth in exchange for dicks experince/bond. everything of any value has been given to the Bat family or is part of Limbo now. Im sorry if you think this run has been even 10% of Dick Graysons former runs your either naive or a fool. For anyone that thinks this run is great name one, ONE, thing that has been a solid contribution to Dicks character in the Last 16 issues. the only half-ass attempt at being interesting was the grey-son thing, but that two was overshadowed by Bats "brother" which was totally unneeded. has done a great job listing alot of the things that have been stolen from Dick and let me just add two more to this already exhausting list 1. Deathstroke-Dicks greatest villian is now in the realm of the Red Hood, if you read RHATO 16 ull see that Deathstroke has been placed in their camp. I cant even express in words the feelings this brings up mostly anger, disgust, and disapointment. 2. Pride- Dick has no pride anymore. hes a carbon copy of bats with no interesting stories or anything that makes him unique. the greatest example of this is Dick constantly getting his a$$ kicked in his own comic. Can anyone name a single villain that Dick has beat in a straight up fight? no you cant there is always a trick up his sleve or a way of outsmarting his opponet but he has yet to go toe to toe with anyone and win. Im sorry but a Hero getting his a$$ constantly kicked in his own comic is humiliating.

Agreed on all points.

Deathstroke not being an enemy of Dick simply annoys me, because they had such a good (and by that I mean interesting lol) thing going previously. From Dick's time in the Teen Titans to his time as Batman they were constantly battling. That's years lost for nothing. And Dick really can't afford that, because he doesn't really have a Rogue's gallery. The closest would be who? Lady Shiva?

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: First off, I understand your concern and passion. You love this character (and I do too) and feel personally slighted by many of the moves made in the New 52.

It's going to be ok. Nightwing has changed before and he'll change again. The Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths is your (and my) iconic Dick Grayson and that's awesome. That's the era where I discovered and grew to love the character. All of the stories in your collection still exist and are still fun to read.

This new era will be definitive for someone else. You can either choose to jump in and enjoy the ride or not,, but everything you enjoyed still exists.

1. I realize it's going to be ok, as it's a comic and isn't the end of the world.

2. Nightwing has never changed to this extent. There are certain aspects of the character that have existed throughout his existence, and can be said to have made him as popular as he is (Such as his New Teen Titans run).

3. The stories exist in a collection, nothing more, and i'm personally not ok with that, as though they can always be re-read new stories can't be enjoyed to the same extent.

4. I fully realize that, but that doesn't mean I can't complain about things I find to be damaging to the character, which is the entire reason I made this thread. I'm going to keep reading the series regardless.

#39 Edited by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

A big problem with the New 52 is that a lot of characters have been promoted in one way or another from the previous continuity. But we as viewers haven't invested enough time in them to care. It's like a meta version of nepotism. Pre-New 52 Cyborg earned his right to be in the JLA, but inexperienced New 52 Cyborg is a founding member. Pre-New 52 Nightwing earned his right to be in the JLI, New 52 Nightwing lacks the experience, respect, (and arguably the skillset) the previous one had.

#40 Posted by BatWatch (2831 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher:

2. I always thought it would be cool to show Batman finally getting old enough that his body start failing him. You could easily do a few years plot lines where he is going down hill before he finds some magic/technological/biological/crisis event to give him a restored body. Honestly though, I think DC could have kept the current timeline going for another fifteen or twenty years before Bruce would be so old that his age would be a major factor. You can still enlist in the military at around thirty-eight. That is not to elderly for combat.

I’m not a big Spider-Man, but I can certainly understand the frustration over One More Day. In addition to all the continuity stupidity, it just was not a very good arch. I read pieces of it.

4. I agree though I’m glad Dick did not die.

5. Has there ever been an issue that officially said Babs and Dick were never an item? Maybe some of their relationship is inteact.

6. I see.

7. I agree. Post-Bludhaven Nightwing was, at least immediately after One Year Later, extremely boring, though he had a horrible writer, so it is hard to tell if the destruction of Bludhaven played a role.

8 Yeah.@soduh2 said:

A big problem with the New 52 is that a lot of characters have been promoted in one way or another from the previous continuity. But we as viewers haven't invested enough time in them to care. It's like a meta version of nepotism. Pre-New 52 Cyborg earned his right to be in the JLA, but inexperienced New 52 Cyborg is a founding member. Pre-New 52 Nightwing earned his right to be in the JLI, New 52 Nightwing lacks the experience, respect, (and arguably the skillset) the previous one had.

Good points. Based on his showing in the DCNU, I would never put Dick in the Justice League. He can barely win a fight with a newbie villain like Paragon.

#41 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

Great read and a fantastic topic started by .

Not sure what I can add at this point however looking at it from a 'glass half full' perspective as opposed to a 'glass half empty' perspective I do think that there's a chance that Dick is being knocked down so he may be rebuilt? Higgins loves the character, he likely fell in love with Nightwing through reading the numerous story arcs and relationships which are now seemingly defunct and no longer officially part of the character's history. I'm going to speculate here that Higgins and others at DC (who share a fondness for Grayson) likely looked at all that had come before and concluded that although it made them love the character ultimately he still remained inferior to Batman even after Bruce's death. Perhaps they wished to strip away everything and completely destroy (but not kill) Dick so that they might have a clean slate on which to work and build the character up again stronger and better than ever before? The Joker arc will certainly see the final 'destruction' of Dick Grayson and of course from there on things can only get better (one would hope).

Dick being on a team again is good news, though I'm less than enthusiastic about Babs being on the same team (likely going to spawn a predictable and dull love story) but I guess I can't have it all my own way. Will be interesting to see how he managed to cope given that he *technically* hasn't been on a team before now and doesn't have any previous leadership experiences. Best of all Dick leaving the area is a chance for him to basically say "f**k you Tim and Jason, have your bromance", frankly I don't care if Dick doesn't get along with either of them, so long as he has a good relationship with Damian I'll be happy.

#42 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher @SmoothJammin @LuigiBat : There's a lot of good stuff here....really. Most of it I agree with/have ranted about at one point or another. Some of the stuff (like the "Robin at 16" point and "Robin for a year") really do seem to undermine the strength of the relationship that both Snyder and Higgins seem intent on showing in this New 52 run. DC's killing the TT history, limbo-ing Donna and Wally (epic fail) and, worst of all, that atrocity of a line in TT16 have really hurt. (Honestly, I decided to not finish the Red Hood, Red Robin storyline after reading that promo which stopping me from buying that issue and RHATO 15).

Regarding the Gray Son....I, too, don't like the idea because it takes away from part of the beauty of Dick and Bruce's lives. They weren't chosen (i.e. Green Lantern or Captain Marvel). They weren't gifted with superpowers (i.e. Wonder Woman or Superman). They were both simply the victims of everyday crimes, very nearly happenstance, that then defined their lives. I love the idea that seemingly random and unrelated events led to such a strong bond between two people and such unstoppable forces in the DCU. Reflects real life in that way, I think. You don't have to be born great to be great. Bruce and Dick showed us that....at least they did Pre-New 52. (Ok,ok....Bruce was born with a crap-ton of money but I argue that no one expected him to save the world with it when he was born.) Making it all conspiratorial kind of ....takes that away somehow (I have the same problem with the Court of Owls revamping of Bruce's parent's deaths).

All of that being said, I firmly believe that both Scott Snyder and Kyle Higgins have tremendous amounts of respect for Dick Grayson and are trying to elevate the character in their own ways. (Really, think about the significant roles that Dick has played in both of Snyder's big N52 stories. His fighting skills may be called into question by only defeating one Talon but there is no doubt in my mind who Snyder considers to be Bruce's heir). In fact, you can kind of look at some of the inconsistencies in DG's new history (i.e. the closeness between him and Bruce despite the aging and one year stint as Robin) as arising from a slight rebellion on their part....Snyder and Higgins vs the DC baloney. I am not sure how the comic industry works so I am not sure what say they had in the revamped timeline idea. I get the sense that they had very little say in the matter. If you kind of take a step back, the writing by both of them actually seems to hearken back to pre-New 52 Dick Grayson. The whole idea of Dick's settling down in Gotham seems to fit with where he was at the end of the Pre-N52 era. His closeness with Bruce seems to fit, as well. Part of me wants to believe/thinks that Snyder and Higgins are subtly thumbing their nose at this new timeline crap and just doing the best they can to add to the DG mythos in a meaningful way given the crappy hand they've been dealt (aka....the DC-baloney).

SN: yeah.....Lobdell does seem to be taking lots of shots at the Grayson mythos. Not cool, man. Not cool. Doesn't make me more likely to check out any of his future stories.

SN (pt 2): Regarding Jason and Dick never coming to blows in this continuity......maybe not but the friction is still there. There is one particular scene in the War of the Robins arc where they were kind of staring each other down. And then there's that whole little issue of Dick apparently saving Batman in the rebooted version of Under the Hood. Jason seems to really have middle-child-syndrome. Sheesh.

As for Haly's....I understand what happened as a plot device to move Dick's story forward. It would have been difficult to justify the impending "big change" otherwise.

#43 Edited by bilwit (7 posts) - - Show Bio

It's really a shame. After being such a central character and carrying the DC flagship for the last couple years before the reboot as Batman he's really taken a hit. I think it's largely in part of how they reset the ages of the Batfamily. Being at the peak of maturity prereboot, late 20s/early 30s, we witnessed so much growth of him as a character: first learning how to become Batman without becoming Bruce and then finally accepting it and taking off with it. Now he's dialed down to his early 20s and because of the shorter career he's without the Teen Titan experience, without the Justice League experience, and pretty much without the Batman experience as well since they really play it down by never mentioning at all other than that short "filling in" line in Nightwing #1 and Damian having a couple vague references of being his partner in other books.

Honestly the reboot has been really hit or miss. I'm really glad for what it's done for characters like Swamp Thing, Animal Man, and Wonder Woman but it really destroyed a lot of characters like Green Arrow and all of the popular characters retconned out of existence. Conceptually, I kind of agree with how they downsized the Batfamily a bit as it was getting pretty ridiculous but most of the changes have been steps backward. Babs as Batgirl is a demotion for me -- I really think her becoming Oracle transcended just another crime-fighting/redundant cape+mask which she is as Batgirl (they also claim to be all about diversity representation yet they took out their only disabled hero). Dick becoming Nightwing again is a demotion for me (already explained above; all those great stories and growth are now nullified). Even Tim getting his book taken away and just lumped into Teen Titans is a demotion (not to mention his hideous new costume). Obviously, for practical reasons, Dick couldn't have stayed Batman forever -- though it made perfect sense with him being Batman of Gotham and Bruce answering a higher calling of being Batman of the world -- but they just could have handled it a lot better than just resetting the clock and retconning half the history without offering any closure.

#44 Posted by John Valentine (16323 posts) - - Show Bio

@bilwit said:

It's really a shame. After being such a central character and carrying the DC flagship for the last couple years before the reboot as Batman he's really taken a hit. I think it's largely in part of how they reset the ages of the Batfamily. Being at the peak of maturity prereboot, late 20s/early 30s, we witnessed so much growth of him as a character: first learning how to become Batman without becoming Bruce and then finally accepting it and taking off with it. Now he's dialed down to his early 20s and because of the shorter career he's without the Teen Titan experience, without the Justice League experience, and pretty much without the Batman experience as well since they really play it down by never mentioning at all other than that short "filling in" line in Nightwing #1 and Damian having a couple vague references of being his partner in other books.

Honestly the reboot has been really hit or miss. I'm really glad for what it's done for characters like Swamp Thing, Animal Man, and Wonder Woman but it really destroyed a lot of characters like Green Arrow and all of the popular characters retconned out of existence. Conceptually, I kind of agree with how they downsized the Batfamily a bit as it was getting pretty ridiculous but most of the changes have been steps backward. Babs as Batgirl is a demotion for me -- I really think her becoming Oracle transcended just another crime-fighting/redundant cape+mask which she is as Batgirl (they also claim to be all about diversity representation yet they took out their only disabled hero). Dick becoming Nightwing again is a demotion for me (already explained above; all those great stories and growth are now nullified). Even Tim getting his book taken away and just lumped into Teen Titans is a demotion (not to mention his hideous new costume). Obviously, for practical reasons, Dick couldn't have stayed Batman forever -- though it made perfect sense with him being Batman of Gotham and Bruce answering a higher calling of being Batman of the world -- but they just could have handled it a lot better than just resetting the clock and retconning half the history without offering any closure.

I agree with you on most of your points, but I feel as though Dick being Batman for an extended period of time was not in the best interests of his character. One of the things I like(d) so much about Dick is the fact that he transcended his status as a boy sidekick and his path to take up his master's legacy and formed an entirely new path and identity for himself as Nightwing.

#45 Posted by BatWatch (2831 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001: There are plenty of ways on bringing a character forward other than destroying a person's life and killing off a slew of supporting characters. A lot of ways. Too many to name.

I agree that Snyder and Higgins have been treating Dick with respect...except I can't stand the way Higgins lets Dick get his clock cleaned, but I've heard them talk about the characters, and they seem to know what Grayson is about.

Oh, Teen Titans, despite that stupid line, was actually well worth reading if you are a Tim Drake fan. It is the first time Tim has acted at all like his pre-Flashpoint self. We also get some fairly good moments with Tim and Jason. ON the flip side, there was a lame switcheroo at the end, but certainly well worth reading in my book. Don't bother with RHATO 16.

@bilwit:

I agree that the reboot has been a mixed bag, but what you did not point out was that all the good parts of the reboot are series that did not actually benefit from the reboot. The good parts, like Swamp Thing and Animal Man, could have been done without the reboot.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

#46 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@bilwit: I'd hardly say Tim's been demoted at all, he's still being portrayed as some wonder child and to cap it all off he's being given a lot of history that was Dick's (forming Teen Titans etc). Him being put in the Teen Titans isn't really a demotion because that series is essentially solely about Tim, much like RHATO is predominantly about Jason.

Its all well and good for Snyder and Higgins to be treating the character with respect but it doesn't make it any more acceptable for Dick to get kicked around and beaten on a regular basis in his own series. It feels like (as occurred in the 1996-09 series quite often) they're showing Dick all too often struggling to beat (or being beaten by) guys who wouldn't be afforded more than a panel or two in a Batman comic, only to then have him best someone immensely skilled (William Cobb in New 52 and Ra's Al Ghul in an issue of the old series spring to mind) at a later date.

#47 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep... and the longer you read comics, the worse the problem will get...

But it's not just Dick Greyson that suffers from this ridiculous timeline, it's any character that is supposed to have a long history... You nailed it when you said they narrowed his time with Batman down to a single year... all that history is gone...

Nearly every thing in the Marvel Universe, has 'supposedly' happened within a ten year time span... now, how ridiculous does that sound?

Just think about the X-Men... The original team (Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Angel, Beast, and Ice-man) were around for how long? And then came Wolverine, Night crawler, Storm, Thunderbird, Rogue, Collosus.... And then.... And then... And then there was Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wolverine, Magneto, Namor, Collosus.... So, if they've had so many different 'teams' over the years.. Just how many years has each team lasted? How do they act as if they are long time friends from way back? It makes no sense...

In the Ultimate Comics Universe, Peter Parker became Spider-Man at the age of 15... and just ten years later, he died at the age of... 15......

WTF?

#48 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

I really wish that, if they were going to do the reboot, they would have done it to make the universe very similar to the Young Justice universe. Modern age of superheroes has been around for a little over ten years. Dick Grayson has been active for almost all of that, started at a very young age, etc. The characters are younger than they were (Dick's like 20, Bruce is probably mid 30's).

A retired Wally is fine by me, though it would be a shame to lose his whole relationship with Linda and time as Flash (though you could make it like what they've done with Dick: Wally filled in for a year or so, and anything is better than just pretending he never existed). Dick leads, and founded, one of the two biggest superhero teams in existence...seriously, just make a giant Justice League and a giant Titans team, make it bimonthly or just have two series for each (it's not like JLI or Ravagers have been successful anyway). Donna was a team member with him, maybe still is, or could be retired like Wally...I just don't get how we can have such a great representation of everything I love about the DCU...and not have it be the actual DCU. It just shows how doable it is, and yet it wasn't done. Frustrating.

#49 Posted by CrazyScarecrow (1464 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't worry about the timeline. Just ignore the stuff you don't like in the books. Thats what I have been doing with New 52. Everything before the reboot still happened in my mind and if it seems odd I become imaginative. After all us comic readers all must have big imaginations to except rich guys taking kids a fighting crime, people with rings fighting crime, women made of clay, kids saying magic words and becoming the world's mightiest mortals

#50 Posted by w0nd (3763 posts) - - Show Bio

@crazyscarecrow:

I am pretty much doing the same thing. Lol it's so weird though, it was like a father and son relationship with him and bruce, or at least brotherly love at the very minimal, but then they extinguished this for no reason.

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