Taken out of Context.

#1 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright! Creating yet another thread for Dick Grayson! XD He's one of my favorite character along with Spidey! However, I find myself baffled because he's hilariously underestimated at times! In the comics, yeah, it's part of him developing as a character. However, even in these sitess, he still is! And I find it often that people take his "beatings" out of context. For example: Bane and Nightwing's fights!

Months ago, I posted "Bane vs Nightwing". I always wondered this. Especially when he was Batman! So I decided to post it! However, the reception I had was VERY NEGATIVE! I allowed all feats to be considered too! Pre-52 and New 52! And yet, people got on me for making a thread, saying he's dead or it's a curbstomp. Some people actually thought he had a chance. Others said "Nope" and locked the thread! However, a leading picture here was shown! And it was these two pictures!

Here. Bane "owns" Nightwing twice!

I even came across a site talking about Bane from the comics and being adapted into the Dark Knight Returns. One of the things said was that "He embarassed Nightwing". And For a time, I counted t as a low showing! UNTIL yesterday, I was looking around tumblr for Bane pics, Tim drake pics, etc! Just wanted to see funny pics of the Batfam drawn by weird people on Tumblr! Then I stumble upon the comic page in which showed a different light of the Nightwing and Bane fight. And got where it was from. Batman:Bane(1997) one-shot! So I did more research and pulled up a cbr file of it and did some investigating. And as it turns out....those 2 pages above this didn't quite happen like that! Those pictures above you, mind you, CAME FROM COMICVINE! Here's what ACTUALLY HAPPENED!

These scans prove that Nightwing was snuck up on and got KOed because of it! This is not that far from Batman getting beat up and broken by Bane himself! GRANTED that he was exhausted. But he still snuck up on Batman and broke his back due to exhaustion, not pure skill! Him sneaking up on Nightwing and KOing him was a feat of stealth and skill, not fighting prowess! IN THIS ONE! There's another scan for that. However the next one will show him tied up and that he was just knocked out.

He then escapes later! and has another run-in with Bane! This is the scene where most take the picture of Bane "owning" Nightwing manifests.

This scene did not display a "ownage" as people claim! Nightwing underestimated his skill and striking power! That's why he said "This guy is no pushover". He's not the first hero to do this,etiher! As a matter of fact, Batman has done so himself! I remember seeing him fight Lady Shiva for the first time in Death of the Family. He didn't want to fight her and actually underestimated her! It wasn't until this realization that he fought! he said that she had the striking power of Ra's Al Ghul and agility of The Sensei! Just because she landed that one attack that surprise him, does this mean that she curbstomps him in every battle? NO! In that "Scuffle" as I call it, the fight didn't even begin yet! Because Batman intervened before he could show off what he could do!(That sucked because I really wanted to see that!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXPn4iAKlCE (Lady Shiva vs Batman and Robin)

The video above show you the fight between them! In that, this show what happens when you underestimate someone! You get beat. Does this mean everytime Batman and Shiva fight, she curbstomps with ridiculous ease? NO! You have to look at the 2 character and what they do and consistency before saying so when you put em in the Battle forums and read the OP! I say in an actual fight where they square off without the use of gadgetry or outside assistance and pure martial arts, it's a stalemate! Why? I think Shiva is better then Batman in MA, speed, and agility but not enough to make a difference where as Batman is tough in strength, endurance, and is more resilient! It depends of the scenerio! Not a curbstomp! Speaking of which, that has happen to Nightwing as part of a low showing! He ALSO ended up underestimating her striking power and kicks him to the side! Peopel said Shiva curbstomped him from that ONE KICK! In actuality, he was fine. Dazed because like Batman, underestimated her striking power! HOWEVER, then was interrupted with ninjas to keep him occupied as Connor Hawke fought Shiva. Before the fight between them in the New 52, people kept saying "He's outa her league by a LONGSHOT! HE DIES" and all that and use that kick to prove he's outclassed when he was OKAY and UNDERESTIMATED HIM! I'm not saying he can beat shiva because IMO, out of his league. However, that one kick she did does not prove! I'd have to go find it sometime and show you the scan! If you can't take my word for it, that's fine. You'll see it soon!

Back to Bane vs Nightwing. Also, I saw a thread where people debated can Nightiwng beat Bane. This was before mine was made, too. Someone posted this.

After this, even I was like "Whoa". But then someone pointed out it was just a holographic construct and then proceeded to say how ridiculous someone try to pull it off as the real thing! And then when someone mentioned that Batman did have that to prepare the Batfamily to fight him, it would be spot-on! Someone argued no. And why? Because he was using a gun.

Well guess what? Batman had a reason why he did have the construct use a gun in that scenerio. CAUSE HE DONE IT BEFORE!

While the Bane construct isn't exactly Bane, it was close enough. Debunking that feat because "it wasn't acting like him" was ridiculous because it was.

The point of this thread was that I'm tired of people putting out things like Nightwing(he seems to attract this xD) getting "owned" before people look at the context of that! Not saying Nightwing beats Bane in a fight! No. That's can be debating. However, taking 2 shots of things outa context and using that as "proof" or "evidence" that he's outclassed is ridiculous. Especially when someone actually took time to put it together to fool people into thinking he loses to Bane horribly when in actuality, you can debate he has a shot based on certain circumstances or whatever the OP says! And they do it to benefit one character and be one sided. I understand you like this character. I love Nightwing! But im not going to be the idiot to sit here and tell you he can win against superman or Batman. Like no! I'm not that ridiculous! I understand and acknowledged when he's out of his league! However, when I post a fight or when anyone does in that matter, present CLEAR evidence with some context provided! You can't just take a little part of the panel and say "oh he beats him" when there's more to show and that it wasn't meant to be taken as a "Nightwing vs Bane".

These type of things happen to a lot of popular character. Bane is actually an example. People forget he broke Batman cause he was exhausted from fighting his rogues continously and tracked him down to the Batcave. While that's REALLY COOL, this does not mean Bane is smarter then him. He's a good enough tactician to get Batman into a bad day. Then in various threads, against Nightwing, Robin, Lady Shiva,etc, people say "Oh he's even smarter then Batman". Which is wrong. He might have a surprisengly high intellect but people like Batman & Nightwing are one of the greatest tactician in the world! Batman runs the Justice League as their leading Tactician. I really don't need to get into him. We all know that. Nightwing is too but many people don't know that because they only see low showings and take that. Nightwing has also outsmarted the Crime Syndicate Pre-Reboot and even Owlman. And as part of his Robin test, evaded Batman and set up a trap for him. And a lot more people don't consider. People like Deathstroke too are overestimated also. They don't understand the reason he fights well with teams is because he utilizes Tactical attacks to break them down! He had a harder time fighting one-on-one, where people are less prone to make mistakes(because no one is bailing you out if you get down) then team. That's also like saying Spider-Man had solos out the X-Men so this clearly means anytime he goes up against ANY X-Men, he wins in a ridiculous curbstomp and because they cant touch him with Spidey sense. That's hard to believe, as many character have feats to back up the fact that would make it a tough fight or a good one AND the fact Spidey Sense isn't an "auto-dodge". People tend to take one little thing and think just because someone did this, that means they can beat anyone lower. ABC logic doesn't help you in a debate! There's bad things about being in teams. If your team is dysfunctional, I don't care if they're the most powerful being on the planets individually, you have the potential of being taken down due to tactical advantage. Also, a lot of times, people don't consider the context nor read the story and find the scan elsewhere. Perhaps they just got doesn't in a danger room exercise?

Lesson of the Thread: Get your context. Might do a general discussion of this.

#2 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks,I knew,deep down that dick always had a chance against bane,but being a N52 reader(fairly new,once the 1st #7s were out) I never had anything to argue. Also,I think dick can take Bruce Fairly well,it'd be a close fight,his speed+agility vs Bruce's Brawn +endurance. They both a a strong will to continue the fight,though Bruce might barely edge him out in that......Wait....This isn't a battle thread,lol.

#3 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@superjedi17 said:

Thanks,I knew,deep down that dick always had a chance against bane,but being a N52 reader(fairly new,once the 1st #7s were out) I never had anything to argue. Also,I think dick can take Bruce Fairly well,it'd be a close fight,his speed+agility vs Bruce's Brawn +endurance. They both a a strong will to continue the fight,though Bruce might barely edge him out in that......Wait....This isn't a battle thread,lol.

I was mad because I posted that in the battle forums and got negative feedback, saying it was a muderstomp and whatnot and it was stupid for me. I really don't care If he can take him or not. I don't like whoever thought it was a smart idea to collect 2 pictures of Bane hitting Nightwing and use it to justify a curbstomp. And people bought it. I was surprised no one actually read it before. I had to go and find it myself. It's really annoying how Viners here love to call something a curbstomp and not make sure they got the context of things first. This is happening a lot. -_____- They really need to stop doing that. It's annoying and it costed me a thread that could of gotten to a good debate.

#4 Edited by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Definitely,people will believe what they want more often than not,instead of putting things in context,or sometimes even fact. Truth is,Bane is more popular at the moment,he's a much more imposing figure,and mostly everyone that has read a few comics knows that he broke batman's back,oh and movie-goers(different universes,different contexts as well,same result =< )

#5 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@superjedi17: That's true. Popular character often get known and people tend to snap fingers and side with them. I'm one who likes to get context. So that way, I don't look stupid. :/

#6 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I'll admit something,since Dick is my favorite character,I like to think of ways he could beat someone in a fight,so whenever someone says he get's Curb stomped by bats,I start thinking..... LOL guess I'm a Grayson fanboy,I'll admit it,at the very least.

#7 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@superjedi17: Eh, I want to be that way, but im one who also would acknowledge his weaknesses. To be honest, he was before often used more as canon fodder. And then sometimes, the main superhero. He's rather inconsistent casue he has high and low showings. I mean every character has good and bad showing but his tip the cake for his popularity. He can hang around with Deathstroke and Lady Shiva(recently) and even impress them. But then gets smacked around by Batman and some guy name Swashbuckler.

The only bright side to his low showing is that...well...people exaggerate half of the ones I actually look up. This thread itself shows it. People don't consider how the character feels towards fighting them. For example: Batman vs Nightwing that took place in Batman 600. People keep seeing that as an official 100% clear cut proof that Batman will win everytime he and nightwing fight. I say Batman would win still, don't get me wrong. But that fight made Nightwing look silly when he tried hitting Batman. Amazingly though, no one ever noted how overall, Batman landed only 2 hits and so did nightwing and when he attacked back, he dodged his attacks too. And that Nightwing caught up to him and forced him to go on the offensive. Batman was still superior and all but it wasn't like I was told. People also forget to mention that Nightwing see's Bruce as a father. He cannot easily bring himself to hurt Bruce. He's hurting in the inside when he does. That's part of his character. He's too nice to his friends to see that when push comes to shove, you have to make a standpoint and stick with it. He can do that with all his friends and make them look funny. But when it comes to the Batfam, he has a harder time. Jason is a good example. It was already known he holds back fighting against him. And cause of that, there's memes of him getting hit in the balls by Jason. In short, as a character, he's too nice to be going against Batman and actually doing something. The guy see him as a father-figure. You think he'll be willing to go all out on him? That's why considering his feats ignoring that fight , it be a good fight with Batman taking the majority. However, the Vine tends to have people think whether or not something is a curbstomp. And take that fight as a serious one. When Nightwing was emotionally hurting from that.

Another problem is that people don't do their research on him like they should. I fail to see anyone mention the fact Nightwing was already said to be the World's Second Greatest Detective(well, since Bruce was gone, was refer to as the World's Greatest detective a couple of times, DC states he's Second to batman in Detective Ability, and Tim Drake admitted he was his superior in that by the time he was Red Robin.) If that's the case, I wonder why no one has noted that often. They'll say Elongated Man, The Question, or Red Robin could hold that title. But then no one ever considers him, even though there's feats out there that says he is. People get the notion he's just flips and tricks. And he has many feats out there that tell a different story. It seems people only note his fights with Deathstroke. Which is weird because well, he's done well against more opponents then him. People don't mention him and Cass fighting often, or him and Cheshire(there's a notion she solos the titans, when NW himself has taken her head on and did very well), or him fighting AzBats and gaining the upperhand, or gaining the upperhand to the same Martial Artist that put Bronze Tiger in a coma. There's feats out there no one ever talks about ever. If you looked at my previous threads, there's feats I've posted I've never seen on a Respect thread on THIS SITE. Like ever. Check em out. you might be surprised at what I found. No one also ever notes his Tactician ability is to the point without him, the DC Universe would of been dead from Trigon. Nor anyone has noted his ability in tactician ability outsmarted the Crime Syndicate, even a powerful cosmic villain and Owlman(This feat is virtually unknown to everyone).

It's hard debeating for Nightwing overall. He's one of those characters who has their low showing that're more known then their good showings. He's not like Spider-Man or Batman, where people will say their low showing is the result of almost automatic PIS. In all, people underestimate the person he his in terms of Combat prowess. there's more to the character then him being the Greatest Gymnast.

#8 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Yes,he would hold back against Bruce,but I'm saying I if he was to fight,maybe a clone of Bruce,like an evil,exact clone, I think he'd have a good showing,I like to think that he's Bruce's equal fighting skill-wise,but Bruce has more strength and endurance,while dick has more speed and agility,and Both know how to get to their opponents, Bruce with his reputation,dick with his taunts. And I'd like to think that he's just under Tim in detective prowess,which is not that bad,though I'm unsure how Tim is in the new 52 (I've heard about him preN52). I think dick could take Bruce on,if there wasn't that love,respect, and friendship. It's almost like Bruce Vs Clark,the point that Clark holds back,as an argument for Bats beating the big blue boy scout. Those're my thought about that.

#9 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@superjedi17: He's actually already done that. He fought a Laxurus Pitt Evil clone when he was Batman made from Darkseid.

#10 Posted by MaccyD (3921 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: That's one thing I don't like about Battle Threads, there's no such thing as a straight-up fight there's always be variables.

#11 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@maccyd: True, true. Hence why one must read the OP and consider things. You'll find most people jumping and waiting to say "Curbstomp" half the time.

#12 Edited by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: He did,I'm probably going to regret this,but how'd the fight go?

#13 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@superjedi17: He gained the upperhand, actually. No one ever mention this feat and frequently debunk it just because it was a clone and that never matters(Rolls eyes). Another funny part is he thought the clone was Bruce for a while. Hence why other jumped in after a little bit.

#14 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

^I like how Dick's able to recognize the clones fighting style and the significant difference between it and Bruce's: "Batman never fights to kill", which would make a story with him going rogue very scary.

#15 Posted by The_Nightwing_the1st (9 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll say it before I start that Grayson is my favorite and in my eyes the best, but he does have lots of low showings, especially since he is more obsessive about being an altruist that Bats, so he tarts working himself without rest A LOT. The majority of his losses are due to extreme fatigue, surprise (usually because fatigue) or injury. Looking at Dick's high showing is wow, like looking at Batman's a lot of just awe factor. DC has said that Dick is second only to Batman in fighting and detective ability. I think he is the only one who has a chance at beating a non-exhausted Batman.

For all the people who think Drake is a better detective, please do a bit more research. Drake is a math and computer genius. He is by far one of the smartest people in DCU but Grayson is second only to Batman, and like Batman is an applied genius, mastering whatever holds his interest at the time. Even hacks the JLA computer without ANYONE finding out. Batman has also commented that Dick learns faster even than Bruce himself.

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