Pro's and Cons of Nightwing's Changes in DCnU

#1 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it me or has Nightwing had many negative changes to him. For me, as a fan of him, I find it sad that so many changes for him have been made he isn't what he was before the Reboot.

1) He no longer the founder of the Teen Titan, it seems. I could be wrong but from what I've seen, thats the case.

2)Both Wally and Donna Troy, his 2 best friends, were rectonned from DC....And his 2 other friends are with Red Hood.

3)IMO, every couple issues I've read to this point, he routinely gets his butt kicked in his own book(not saying he should win everything but looking at #14 , he got his ass kicked by Lady Shiva in a one-sided fight that ended due to a previous injury he received in #1 ? And gets played by Penguin(he literally thought her appearance had something to do with the Joker.....add insult to his detective ability. And he was Batman for a year?)

4) Not in a team book as far as I know as a full fledged member.(Batman in Justice League, Red hood in the Outlaws, Tim Drake in Teen Titans. you get the idea)

Am I the only one who thinks this?

#2 Posted by DEGRAAF (7810 posts) - - Show Bio

1.) Idk how they are playing it now but it has been proven that Dick Grayson ran around with Starfire, Red Arrow and "others" but in the new 52 they never called themselves Teen Titans. So their stories are still supposed to hold true (except for the fact that part of the team no longer exists)

2.) lol See my first answer. I agree this sucks. I loved Wally and am not a fan of Barry all that much (he's a good character but not the one i want). Donna was just to similar to Diana and they messed with her so much over the years. She was literally a clone of her or something. With Diana's new origin (Zeus being her father) I think they could easily bring Donna back as a demi-god as well. I would like to see it something like this

Diana - Daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta - we know her story

Donna - Daughter of Ares and Aphrodite - While being daughter of true gods she was made mortal by Hephaestus (being jealous of his wife's affair) at a young age (although she retained all those memories seeing as she was a god). She is Beautiful beyond belief, looking much like her mother and had the nature of her mother as well (quiet and often scared). When she was made mortal she could no longer stay in Olympus so Ares moved her to an Amazonian tribe (an off shoot of Diana's tribe that worshiped all three major goddesses, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter) She was brought up in the peaceful tribe learning about the land, having true and warm heart. Her father would come down from time to time and train her in the ways of war and fighting, as a way for her to defend her family.

Artemis - Daughter of Poseidon and Cleopatra - She was born and then quickly taken from her mother by Poseidon. Cleopatra, (secretly from the Egyptian Amazonian Tribe) thinking her daughter died at birth (thanks to Poseidon tricking her) kills herself. Born of the name Shim-Tar, she is returned to the Egyptian Amazonian tribe and brought up as their own (praising the God Artemis, rather than Hera as Diana's Amazon's do). She has her fathers temper and feels she is superior to everyone else. When she comes of age to become a warrior her father returns giving her the god Artemis's bow as a gift and show of his love to her. She goes on to dip the arrows in the venom of the asp (as a tribute to her dead mother) similar to the god Artemis dipping her arrows in poison.

3.) I feel like this has been going on since he took over the role of Batman pre New 52. It seemed like every fight he was in he would lose or get the crap beaten out of him before finally getting the upper hand and barely winning; stumbling through his fights and winning and discovering things by accident.

4.) I would like to see him fall into creating the outsiders (with different members then the previous incarnation). He has always been the team player type even being listed as the most social of the heroes (working with or knowing the most heroes)

#3 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf: I've agreed with you at all points. And you're right: He does sometimes seems to be stumbling in his fights like Paragon or with other character who pose some significance(I blame the plot). He's always regarded to be second to Batman but shoot...sometimes, I have to remember the good things he's done cause the writers try hard to never make him look better then his mentor.

Another thing that irks me is that Tim Drake and Jason Todd get good upgrades. I mean, Tim Drake is still a Mary Sue and is now an Olympic Athlete? And gets to lead the Teen Titans? And Founder too! Jason Todd benefitted from this the most. I mean, he's taking on Supernatual opponents in the Red Hood, gets Batman, All-Caste and League of Assassins Training from Lady Shiva.

#4 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

Trust me, you're not the only one who thinks this way. I made my own thread about the same thing a few months back: The Character Assassination of Dick Grayson

As you've pointed out his character was basically downgraded and Jason and Tim's characters were upgraded. Not only did they take aspects of his history, but Jason also took Dick's relationship with Tim as a brother figure, with Tim describing Jason Todd, the man who broke into Titan's Tower and physically beat him bloody, as the closest thing he had to a brother.

I also agree, Nightwing (I originally had his name here, when you see the rest of the sentence you'll see why I changed it lol) gets beaten on all too often in his own freaking series! I don't expect to see him owning people all the time, but as Batman's right hand man he deserves better.

#5 Posted by Alak (867 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree on all points made by the OP. There definitely has been a lot of downgrades for Dick since the start of the New 52, but we've pretty much discussed them all for the past 2 years. I want to try to bring to light some of the things that helped his character out:

  • If you ignore the new timeline, you can at least appreciate him being younger. He's more energetic as opposed to his increasing sense of seriousness during his run as Batman.
  • Speaking of which, he's no longer Batman. He's Nightwing again!
  • Nightwing has received a huge tech upgrade. Don't get me wrong, Dick has some fancy equipment in the pre-52, but now he actually feels like a modern tech-based crime fighter.
  • While his combat ability appears to have dropped, Nightwing has really great agility/speed feats popping up in every issue now.
  • Chicago is a huge blessing for Nightwing fans! Ever since the destruction of Bludhaven, Dick's been a journeyman. I personally don't mind him being in Gotham, but it's so much more refreshing to see him protect his very own city.
  • He has roommates! I haven't seen him live with anyone unrelated to the Bat-family since his run in Bludhaven. There's going to be good times ahead of us!
  • His Robin uniform in the New 52 is a lot better than the booty-shorts and fairy boots that he used to wear.
  • Relationship with Babs still seems to be unaltered.
  • Thinking back to the Court of Owls arc, we now know that Dick has some pretty deep ties to Gotham City that haven't existed in the pre-52.

That's all I could come up with on a whim. We must stay positive, Wingnuts!

#6 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher:

Yeah. Tim and Dick's relationship use to be a relationship I ALWAYS enjoyed in the comics! I'm sorta disappointed that you just explained that they no longer have that dynamic with each other. *Sigh* They've given Jason Todd a lot of stuff that was an expense from Dick......right down to even the costume( I just got started reading it and found out that his costume is a former Nightwing costume. He added just a jacket, helment, and probably made modifications to it) and that's just sad for Dick. It's making it really hard for me to like New 52 Red Hood knowing that all the good stuff he has right now is a direct result of taking from Dick's character in some form or fashion. And I was a fan of him Pre-52. I can certainly say in comparison, he no longer under-developed like he was before. I did use to say he deserves more....but wow, the irony of that.

I thought so. Funny how I read other Bat titles and was surprised that none of them really get some sort of beatdown by an opponent REGULARLY but Nightwing #2 to Batman can.

@alak: That post was rather good! I agree. He needs to stay away from Gotham and have a place like Bludhaven. Here, you can introduce many new characters without the randomness like Saiko and Paragon(Im surprised they even held a fight with the so called "Second to Batman"). The Chicago arc is something I do like. I was surprised I even still read Nightwing after I realized what has changed so much. When he went to Chicago though, I loved it! I hope I'm not turned off to the point I stop picking up the title! I've read the Nightwing comics for quite some time! And I love them!

#7 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (11704 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf: I've agreed with you at all points. And you're right: He does sometimes seems to be stumbling in his fights like Paragon or with other character who pose some significance(I blame the plot). He's always regarded to be second to Batman but shoot...sometimes, I have to remember the good things he's done cause the writers try hard to never make him look better then his mentor.

Another thing that irks me is that Tim Drake and Jason Todd get good upgrades. I mean, Tim Drake is still a Mary Sue and is now an Olympic Athlete?

Most Tim Drake fans would argue this is a step down (Tim being an average person who tworks his way up as an athlete and combatant was one of the things that made him unique and interesting.

And gets to lead the Teen Titans?

Not an upgrade. Tim was leading them pre-reboot

And Founder too!

got me there

Jason Todd benefitted from this the most. I mean, he's taking on Supernatual opponents in the Red Hood, gets Batman, All-Caste and League of Assassins Training from Lady Shiva.

completely agree

#8 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: With Tim Drake, I looked into him. Yeah, he got screwed too. But as far as changes he gets some upgrade, though something that made him unqiue was lost. I understand their lost for Tim Drake. And I meant with him being the sole leader AND founder so far. That irked me!

I looked into Jason more....and I gotta say....it came down right to the costume! As it turned out, I reread an earlier issue and it clicked in my head that he's wearing a former NIGHTWING costume with a jacket and a helment. And I thought he was rocking the red look all on his own at this point. No! It's was freaking Nightwing. He gets his costume! And then he gets Nightwing's villain, Deathstroke! NO WONDER I HAVENT SEEN HIM IN ANY NIGHTWING COMICS, CONSIDERING THEIR HISTORY!(Gone now). I swear,the things he got were from Dick's greatest qualities....to now even the costume from a perspective.

#9 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (11704 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: With Tim Drake, I looked into him. Yeah, he got screwed too. But as far as changes he gets some upgrade, though something that made him unqiue was lost. I understand their lost for Tim Drake. And I meant with him being the sole leader AND founder so far. That irked me!

I looked into Jason more....and I gotta say....it came down right to the costume! As it turned out, I reread an earlier issue and it clicked in my head that he's wearing a former NIGHTWING costume with a jacket and a helment. And I thought he was rocking the red look all on his own at this point. No! It's was freaking Nightwing. He gets his costume! And then he gets Nightwing's villain, Deathstroke! NO WONDER I HAVENT SEEN HIM IN ANY NIGHTWING COMICS, CONSIDERING THEIR HISTORY!(Gone now). I swear,the things he got were from Dick's greatest qualities....to now even the costume from a perspective.

yep. he also got the lady shiva training from Tim

#10 Posted by DEGRAAF (7810 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: lol sorry kind of got on a tangent about Donna Troy.I acutally didnt like Tim's upgrades but i dont deny that they were definitely upgrades. He is basically born with everything Bruce training himself to become. Where is the honor in that? He might as well have been a genetically altered human to be the best any human could be. a Mary Sue?

@avenging_x_bolt: Who got Lady Shiva training from Tim?

@avenging_x_bolt: With Tim Drake, I looked into him. Yeah, he got screwed too. But as far as changes he gets some upgrade, though something that made him unqiue was lost. I understand their lost for Tim Drake. And I meant with him being the sole leader AND founder so far. That irked me!

I looked into Jason more....and I gotta say....it came down right to the costume! As it turned out, I reread an earlier issue and it clicked in my head that he's wearing a former NIGHTWING costume with a jacket and a helment. And I thought he was rocking the red look all on his own at this point. No! It's was freaking Nightwing. He gets his costume! And then he gets Nightwing's villain, Deathstroke! NO WONDER I HAVENT SEEN HIM IN ANY NIGHTWING COMICS, CONSIDERING THEIR HISTORY!(Gone now). I swear,the things he got were from Dick's greatest qualities....to now even the costume from a perspective.

Yeah i didnt know any of that. I stopped reading. I still keep up with whats going on but i had to take a break. It got way to sad to see. That pisses me off even more that Jason got Dick's friends, villains, and costume. I am ok with the training actually since he was the furthest apple from the bat tree it makes sense he would get different training.

Jason definitely seems the most upgraded. New training, new friends, good villains (taken from Nightwing) and now he is a hero again? doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I would like to see him stay as head of the League of Assassins.

I like that Dick is in Chicago now but i hope he stays there makes new friends outside of the Bat-family. (its sad Dick has become the outcast of the bat-family it seems)

#11 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (11704 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf said:

@jayaaerow: lol sorry kind of got on a tangent about Donna Troy.I acutally didnt like Tim's upgrades but i dont deny that they were definitely upgrades. He is basically born with everything Bruce training himself to become. Where is the honor in that? He might as well have been a genetically altered human to be the best any human could be. a Mary Sue?

@avenging_x_bolt: Who got Lady Shiva training from Tim?

@jayaaerow said:

@avenging_x_bolt: With Tim Drake, I looked into him. Yeah, he got screwed too. But as far as changes he gets some upgrade, though something that made him unqiue was lost. I understand their lost for Tim Drake. And I meant with him being the sole leader AND founder so far. That irked me!

I looked into Jason more....and I gotta say....it came down right to the costume! As it turned out, I reread an earlier issue and it clicked in my head that he's wearing a former NIGHTWING costume with a jacket and a helment. And I thought he was rocking the red look all on his own at this point. No! It's was freaking Nightwing. He gets his costume! And then he gets Nightwing's villain, Deathstroke! NO WONDER I HAVENT SEEN HIM IN ANY NIGHTWING COMICS, CONSIDERING THEIR HISTORY!(Gone now). I swear,the things he got were from Dick's greatest qualities....to now even the costume from a perspective.

Yeah i didnt know any of that. I stopped reading. I still keep up with whats going on but i had to take a break. It got way to sad to see. That pisses me off even more that Jason got Dick's friends, villains, and costume. I am ok with the training actually since he was the furthest apple from the bat tree it makes sense he would get different training.

Jason definitely seems the most upgraded. New training, new friends, good villains (taken from Nightwing) and now he is a hero again? doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I would like to see him stay as head of the League of Assassins.

I like that Dick is in Chicago now but i hope he stays there makes new friends outside of the Bat-family. (its sad Dick has become the outcast of the bat-family it seems)

Jason. Tim received training from Lady Shiva pre-reboot.

#12 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf said:

@jayaaerow: lol sorry kind of got on a tangent about Donna Troy.I acutally didnt like Tim's upgrades but i dont deny that they were definitely upgrades. He is basically born with everything Bruce training himself to become. Where is the honor in that? He might as well have been a genetically altered human to be the best any human could be. a Mary Sue?

@avenging_x_bolt: Who got Lady Shiva training from Tim?

@jayaaerow said:

@avenging_x_bolt: With Tim Drake, I looked into him. Yeah, he got screwed too. But as far as changes he gets some upgrade, though something that made him unqiue was lost. I understand their lost for Tim Drake. And I meant with him being the sole leader AND founder so far. That irked me!

I looked into Jason more....and I gotta say....it came down right to the costume! As it turned out, I reread an earlier issue and it clicked in my head that he's wearing a former NIGHTWING costume with a jacket and a helment. And I thought he was rocking the red look all on his own at this point. No! It's was freaking Nightwing. He gets his costume! And then he gets Nightwing's villain, Deathstroke! NO WONDER I HAVENT SEEN HIM IN ANY NIGHTWING COMICS, CONSIDERING THEIR HISTORY!(Gone now). I swear,the things he got were from Dick's greatest qualities....to now even the costume from a perspective.

Yeah i didnt know any of that. I stopped reading. I still keep up with whats going on but i had to take a break. It got way to sad to see. That pisses me off even more that Jason got Dick's friends, villains, and costume. I am ok with the training actually since he was the furthest apple from the bat tree it makes sense he would get different training.

Jason definitely seems the most upgraded. New training, new friends, good villains (taken from Nightwing) and now he is a hero again? doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I would like to see him stay as head of the League of Assassins.

I like that Dick is in Chicago now but i hope he stays there makes new friends outside of the Bat-family. (its sad Dick has become the outcast of the bat-family it seems)

Regarding Lady Shiva, Tim Drake was trained by her Pre-Reboot at one point. A quality stolen from him by Jason.

I agree. The training is by, all means, fine and well. He had connections to the League of Assassins anyway and that's fne.

I cannot see him as leader of the League of Assassins. That's more along the lines of a Damian/Bruce story. It's really weird for him to be the one chosen to lead. And then there's that clone that killed Damian. Did they forget all about that? I was honestly surprised that someone was willing to write him becoming the possible Leader of the League of Assassns. He just has it all too good now. And I use to say he deserved more. I didn't expect him to change so much and reap the benefits from the other Robins. It's not his fault. I'll blame whoever wrote him. Maybe one of these days, he'll go back to being an Anti-Hero that kills(The Punisher of DC) cause him being a hero is WEIRD! But he most definately got benefits.

#13 Posted by batmannflash (6109 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah he has his cons. But I like to forget about them and look at the pros.

Alak above explained it perfectly:

  • If you ignore the new timeline, you can at least appreciate him being younger. He's more energetic as opposed to his increasing sense of seriousness during his run as Batman.
  • Speaking of which, he's no longer Batman. He's Nightwing again!
  • Nightwing has received a huge tech upgrade. Don't get me wrong, Dick has some fancy equipment in the pre-52, but now he actually feels like a modern tech-based crime fighter.
  • While his combat ability appears to have dropped, Nightwing has really great agility/speed feats popping up in every issue now.
  • Chicago is a huge blessing for Nightwing fans! Ever since the destruction of Bludhaven, Dick's been a journeyman. I personally don't mind him being in Gotham, but it's so much more refreshing to see him protect his very own city.
  • He has roommates! I haven't seen him live with anyone unrelated to the Bat-family since his run in Bludhaven. There's going to be good times ahead of us!
  • His Robin uniform in the New 52 is a lot better than the booty-shorts and fairy boots that he used to wear.
  • Relationship with Babs still seems to be unaltered.
  • Thinking back to the Court of Owls arc, we now know that Dick has some pretty deep ties to Gotham City that haven't existed in the pre-52.
#14 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmannflash: I want to but for me, who followed Nightwing throughout the time he was written, it is a slap to the face. Cause many people are willing to read him finally doing something big. It sucks Kyle Higgins and those who wrote for Nightwing say they love him.....but somehow screwed him up. Too much butt kicking on him for his own book and from villains that wouldn't have lasted 2 pages in a Batman book and all the thing he worked for since Issue 1 got destroyed in the Death of the Family event. And all in the name for Character development. Not to mention before the reboot, things like this happen. Just not at this scale.

I might be a major Nightwing fan but I respect all the former robins. It a slap to the faces of their fans too except Todd. You'd probably love him if you were cuckoo for JT before the Reboot cause all these upgrades.

Though thing are brightening up. According to what I've seen, he's also going to be in the JLI too. That's good! Him in Chicago is a nice change. Hopefully, we no longer see him getting his butt kicked routinely like in the other issues or him stumbling from his opponents due to plot.

#15 Edited by batmannflash (6109 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I don't think Nightwing really gets his "butt kicked" that much. Saiko is his equal and he managed to beat him. Lady Shiva is one of the greatest fighters ever. He defeated William Cobb through intellect and showed great durability against pain. He has tons of amazing agility feats and it's cool how they have the "reading body language" skill for him. He captured the Prankster blind and defeat 5 armed cops in under 30 seconds.

I do agree they downgraded him. There's so much more they could have done to improve him. I'm a major Nightwing fan so I like to keep positive. It's awesome that he's Nightwing again. That's his own mantle and I don't like seeing him as Batman unless Bruce Wayne is gone for an extended period of time. He has a tech upgrade, which is cool. He's still the nice loyal Dick Grayson we all know. He has great chemistry with Babs and the series has done a fantastic job with building his relationships outside of the superhero gig: the circus, roommates, etc.. He's been pretty independent too, unlike Red Hood and Tim Drake, who always have team members on their side (plus Teen Titans is a crap series). Dick has moved from being a sidekick and taking things into his own hands

#16 Edited by Denam_Pavel (138 posts) - - Show Bio

Pros:

-Younger again

-Baggage with certain characters and concerning certain events removed, he can act casual again.

-Nightwing solo title again

Cons:

-No more Oracle. Seriously, that's the big one. Oracle was a HUGE boon too the writing of the previous Nightwing book. A voice with internet connection who is an established character we care about that he has flirty banter with all the time? Yes please. No more of that. He's in Chicago all alone with brandnew characters and they're probably all gonna die and by replaced again so Nightwing can report for duty in Gotham for another crossover. You can imagine Nightwing's history to be intact after all any which way you want but this one isn't going away.

-Damian is dead.

-No more Wally, Donna, Helena B, Cass, Steph. All the people he'd likely to hang out, team up with when not with Bruce are gone.

-History with Deathstroke wiped clean. What's more compelling then a enemy who you are in a long hatefilled fued with? Prankster and Saito, that's what. >_>

-Not even the first candidate for the closest thing Tim has for a brother. Granted I'm sure other writers are gonna ignore Lobdell and continue onwards with Tim and Dick having a brotherly relationship as they always have but who knows when Tim will escape Lobdell's claws?

-Reputation as the best leader in DC is gone.

-History with Raven gone. That's a definite.

-History with Superman, Beast Boy, Aqualad and Cyborg almost certainly wiped clean too.

Another Notes:

Lobdell is of Red Hood now and Tynion will probably go on to ignore all this but I still gotta say I loath Kory/Roy's portrayal. You got issue #1 where even if you take for granted that Jason was talking out of his ass the entire time and also that Kory for whatever reason was playing along and despite her apparent disinterest actually did solicit Roy for casual sex because she herself was legitimately attracted to him that still leaves you with Roy who took in the information that his former teammate forgot all about him, the love of her life and everyone else, is furthermore incapable of distinguishing one human being from another and is now hanging out with someone who has tried to kill her former lover multiple times but is not sentient enough to comprehend why she might not want to do that with a smile and then had sex with her. Whatever you think of Jason and Kory, Roy was still the absolute worst friend to Kory and Dick imaginable.

And then you have issue #17 where, just before leaving the book Lobdell had Kory state that Jason was her friend platonic friend period with Roy making no attempt to correct her, just make clear that the team we saw was neither the Titans in name nor spirit. He had Roy at Wayne Manor present for Jason asking Kory if she wanted to say hello, but not even considering saying hello to his friend himself. Had Jason monologue about how the few hours with him were the only time in his life Damian was allowed to be himself. Then Jason went inside to tell Dick that he cares more about Kory then he ever did. Jason. The guy that had no knowledge of Dick and Kory's relations before meeting Kory, who was amnesiac about the whole thing? Where does he get off? Obviously he's gonna turn out to be wrong but if he's just being pissed off why is he being all patient with everyone (even Damian) at the same time? I gotta believe he has some vague basis for this. And that can only be Roy talking smack about Dick.

And the obvious worst part is the very fact that Dick already learned that Kory, Roy and Jason have been hanging out, hanging shot up and killed all kinds of people and he neither raises objection to this nor was his reaction worth showing. So to conclude Roy was definitely no friend to Dick or Kory before this, nor did Kory have any others. Their previous team-up then was exactly the kind of impersonal affair that Kory and Roy so objected to Dick maintaining in Outsiders. I know Lobdell initially wanted to include Teen Titans history but it seems he's taken his editors instructions to put an end to all that and committed to it with a vengeance.

As for the rest, writers will probably go on to write his interactions with Bruce and Alfred much the same in spite of all this.

#17 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

Pros:

-Younger again

-Baggage with certain characters and concerning certain events removed, he can act casual again.

-Nightwing solo title again

Cons:

-No more Oracle. Seriously, that's the big one. Oracle was a HUGE boon too the writing of the previous Nightwing book. A voice with internet connection who is an established character we care about that he has flirty banter with all the time? Yes please. No more of that. He's in Chicago all alone with brandnew characters and they're probably all gonna die and by replaced again so Nightwing can report for duty in Gotham for another crossover. You can imagine Nightwing's history to be intact after all any which way you want but this one isn't going away.

-Damian is dead.

-No more Wally, Donna, Helena B, Cass, Steph. All the people he'd likely to hang out, team up with when not with Bruce are gone.

-History with Deathstroke wiped clean. What's more compelling then a enemy who you are in a long hatefilled fued with? Prankster and Saito, that's what. >_>

-Not even the first candidate for the closest thing Tim has for a brother. Granted I'm sure other writers are gonna ignore Lobdell and continue onwards with Tim and Dick having a brotherly relationship as they always have but who knows when Tim will escape Lobdell's claws?

-Reputation as the best leader in DC is gone.

-History with Raven gone. That's a definite.

-History with Superman, Beast Boy, Aqualad and Cyborg almost certainly wiped clean too.

Another Notes:

Lobdell is of Red Hood now and Tynion will probably go on to ignore all this but I still gotta say I loath Kory/Roy's portrayal. You got issue #1 where even if you take for granted that Jason was talking out of his ass the entire time and also that Kory for whatever reason was playing along and despite her apparent disinterest actually did solicit Roy for casual sex because she herself was legitimately attracted to him that still leaves you with Roy who took in the information that his former teammate forgot all about him, the love of her life and everyone else, is furthermore incapable of distinguishing one human being from another and is now hanging out with someone who has tried to kill her former lover multiple times but is not sentient enough to comprehend why she might not want to do that with a smile and then had sex with her. Whatever you think of Jason and Kory, Roy was still the absolute worst friend to Kory and Dick imaginable.

And then you have issue #17 where, just before leaving the book Lobdell had Kory state that Jason was her friend platonic friend period with Roy making no attempt to correct her, just make clear that the team we saw was neither the Titans in name nor spirit. He had Roy at Wayne Manor present for Jason asking Kory if she wanted to say hello, but not even considering saying hello to his friend himself. Had Jason monologue about how the few hours with him were the only time in his life Damian was allowed to be himself. Then Jason went inside to tell Dick that he cares more about Kory then he ever did. Jason. The guy that had no knowledge of Dick and Kory's relations before meeting Kory, who was amnesiac about the whole thing? Where does he get off? Obviously he's gonna turn out to be wrong but if he's just being pissed off why is he being all patient with everyone (even Damian) at the same time? I gotta believe he has some vague basis for this. And that can only be Roy talking smack about Dick.

And the obvious worst part is the very fact that Dick already learned that Kory, Roy and Jason have been hanging out, hanging shot up and killed all kinds of people and he neither raises objection to this nor was his reaction worth showing. So to conclude Roy was definitely no friend to Dick or Kory before this, nor did Kory have any others. Their previous team-up then was exactly the kind of impersonal affair that Kory and Roy so objected to Dick maintaining in Outsiders. I know Lobdell initially wanted to include Teen Titans history but it seems he's taken his editors instructions to put an end to all that and committed to it with a vengeance.

As for the rest, writers will probably go on to write his interactions with Bruce and Alfred much the same in spite of all this.

I didn't read up to where Jason said he cared about Kori more then he did. That a bunch of bull. He held off the fact he tried to kill Nightwing, who Starfire actually admired for the good times, according to an earlier issue. And she still has some loyalty and compassion, as she cares for Jason. Had she known from the complete beginning of how that went down, she woulda probably beat him up to a pulp and left.

Roy is a HORRIBLE FRIEND! He knows what happened and still befriends who was Nightwing's "Best Bud". It almost sad cause Roy and Dick were the best buds ever Pre-52! And along with more. Now he's portrayed as a HORRIBLE Friend. Who befriends the person who almost killed your "best bud" and then sleeps with his ex and withholds that info that could potential cause them to both get a beating.

I read #17 after you post and agree. I hope someone slap some sense into these 2. Trying to compare themselves to a more honest person. He has his flaws but he at least tries to do the right thing. They wanna rebel. And god knows why the writers even let them do that, knowing what kind of people they were before the reboot. I'm not sure If they want me to believe that or mot.

#18 Posted by DEGRAAF (7810 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah Jason used to kill and it was a huge deal, now he kills and has friends with him that kill and its no big deal

#19 Posted by w0nd (2016 posts) - - Show Bio

is he still broke running around in that costume that has been stitched up over and over again?

#20 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

is he still broke running around in that costume that has been stitched up over and over again?

Dick? At the moment yes he is, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Every now and again I think it's good for a hero with a large supply of cash to find himself down on his luck.

#21 Edited by DEGRAAF (7810 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

is he still broke running around in that costume that has been stitched up over and over again?

Dick? At the moment yes he is, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Every now and again I think it's good for a hero with a large supply of cash to find himself down on his luck.

I would like him to still have all his money and be able to have something like the Bat Bunker Dick had while he was Batman but have a job bc he knows he has to have a real life and cant succumb to the superhero life style all the time

#22 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@w0nd said:

is he still broke running around in that costume that has been stitched up over and over again?

Dick? At the moment yes he is, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Every now and again I think it's good for a hero with a large supply of cash to find himself down on his luck.

I would like him to still have all his money and be able to have something like the Bat Bunker Dick had while he was Batman but have a job bc he knows he has to have a real life and cant succumb to the superhero life style all the time

If he's going to make Chicago his own, then yes he needs a base of operations. I thought the Bat Bunker was a nice touch, and showed how Dick's methods differed from Bruce's.

#23 Posted by w0nd (2016 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf: It was depressing seeing him pre 52 same thing happened he lost his money, he was down to one costume, he was sleeping on rooftops and it was hindering his super hero skills, making him tired and sloppy

#24 Posted by JayAaerow (416 posts) - - Show Bio

For some reason, I was reading Batman Inc. and the funniest thing hit me. Jason said that "Batman would put Wingman in charge" cause something happen to Batman yadda yadda and it hit me. Why in the would would Batman put the craziest Robin in charge of such a big matter? Pre-52 wise, that was the most laugable thing ever! It really annoyed me cause Nightwing is normally the one in charge of that! That was his thing that exceeded Batman. Leadership!@ And now that's taken away it seems(Maybe not with Forever Evil. Who knows?)! There's a conspiracy with Nightwing being stripped of his qualities and then given to some other Batfamily memeber. I'm freaking sure of it now! =____= *Sigh* The only thing keeping me with Nightwing's New 52 changes is Chicago and hoping he's going to be in a team book!

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