Plothole that he can't beat Batman in a fight?

#1 Edited by redwingx (822 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has taught Dick everything but he still hasn't surpassed him?

#2 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has the BatForce, and as such he can not be shown getting defeated by any character. No exceptions.

#3 Edited by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson wouldn't waste time on trying to figure out weather or not he could or could not take his mentor so neither do I. They are both good guys and are fighting for the same cause. Don't get so hung up on the things that don't matter in the big picture. If your love for a character is based on who they can or can not beat you're bound to end up disappointed at some point no matter who you end liking.

#4 Posted by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

Writers would never allow it. Also, in regards to that picture, Dick was kinda asking for it. He just started throwing a hissy fit and Bruce simply wanted him to shut up.

#5 Posted by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

Writers would never allow it. Also, in regards to that picture, Dick was kinda asking for it. He just started throwing a hissy fit and Bruce simply wanted him to shut up.

Bruce hit him to knock out the Talon tooth not to "shut him up".

#6 Edited by dagmar_merrill (8530 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has the BatForce, and as such he can not be shown getting defeated by any character. No exceptions.

You always seem so mad when you speak of Batman.

#7 Posted by youmessinwithme (1188 posts) - - Show Bio

there's nothing wrong with that. Batman is bigger, stronger, more seasoned, more experienced and has spent more time training. the Batsuit is also more well equipped for hand to hand fighting.(brass knuckles in the hands etc.)

Even if he has past on all his knowledge to Dick it still makes perfect sense that Bruce could still take him. especially when Bruce is the one who trained Dick so would know literally all his strength's, weaknesses, habits and tendencys. without PIS Dick is one of the few characters that Bruce would still beat every time.

#8 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

He taught Dick everything Dick knows, but not everything he knows.

#9 Posted by nightwingism (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@youmessinwithme: Batman may be bigger and stronger, but Nightwing is more agile and faster, which is kind of a counter balance. But really in the end, I don't think there is such thing as a clear winner in that debate.

#10 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Edited by Onemoreposter (4047 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has the BatForce, and as such he can not be shown getting defeated by any character. No exceptions.

Unless he's being written by Geoff Johns in which case he cannot be shown defeating any character.

#12 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

Batman has the BatForce, and as such he can not be shown getting defeated by any character. No exceptions.

Unless he's being written by Geoff Johns in which case he cannot be shown defeating any character.

Pummeling Bizarro and Lex in Forever Evil? He fought Bizarro with his freaking hands.

#13 Posted by Onemoreposter (4047 posts) - - Show Bio

@onemoreposter said:

@deaditegonzo said:

Batman has the BatForce, and as such he can not be shown getting defeated by any character. No exceptions.

Unless he's being written by Geoff Johns in which case he cannot be shown defeating any character.

Pummeling Bizarro and Lex in Forever Evil? He fought Bizarro with his freaking hands.

Batman didn't use some clever tactic or piece of tech to disable Lex's battle-armor. Lex is letting him do the "pummeling." Guaranteed Batman is immediately put into line at the beginning of the next issue of Forever Evil. Also, I'd hardly consider what he did to Bizarro a "pummeling."

#14 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

For your consideration I uploaded two scans. One is Batman pummeling Bizarro, and the other is a scene from Hush that many consider a good showing for Batman against Superman. There are two things I want to point out about the Hush scan, one being Batman's narration. He says Superman's greatest weakness is that he is a good person, and admits that a Superman who was actually trying could squish him in an instant. And the second thing, not on this scan, is that punching Superman is breaking Batman's hand.

Compare that to the Bizarro scan. The Batwank is evident in this fact: Bizarro wouldnt hold back. He should be capable of doing to Batman what Batman says a Superman with no conscience could do to him. And Simply hitting Bizarro should be crippling Batman. But nope, Bat Punch.

EDIT: Granted, since Bizarro is a failed clone, he may have less speed, durability, and even strength.

#15 Posted by redleader1 (506 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: also it he could hurt bizarro cause the writers want him to. That's it.

#16 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: also it he could hurt bizarro cause the writers want him to. That's it.

What the writer wants, when inconsistent with established canon, is called PIS. If they make something happen purely for plot convenience, that is the definition of PIS.

#17 Posted by Dernman (15074 posts) - - Show Bio

This is in no way a plothole or is teaching someone a given they will surpass you.

#18 Posted by Jayc1324 (12201 posts) - - Show Bio

Its not a plothole, batman is just better. He taught dick everything dick knows. Not everything he himself knows. Batman has more knowledge, skill, experience, durability, and strength as well as a better mind. Dicks only advantage is being more acrobatic but even whos faster sis debatable.

Batman knows everything dick does and then some.

#19 Posted by Dernman (15074 posts) - - Show Bio
@jayc1324 said:

Its not a plothole, batman is just better. He taught dick everything dick knows. Not everything he himself knows. Batman has more knowledge, skill, experience, durability, and strength as well as a better mind. Dicks only advantage is being more acrobatic but even whos faster sis debatable.

Batman knows everything dick does and then some.

This plus lets add that even if he taught him everything he knows doesn't mean that.

  1. Batman himself isn't still growing as a fighter
  2. As good as Batman is who is to say his teachers were not better teachers.
  3. Two very different fighting styles one of which wastes more energy than the other.
#20 Posted by redleader1 (506 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: why is it called PIS and thanks for explaining that I keep hearing it but did not know what it meant.

#21 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@redleader1: PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. It basically means that something that shouldnt happen based on previous evidence happens to keep the story moving.

Basically, its PIS for the reason I stated in that second post. Batman is a mere human, even with Kryptonite, each punch to someone with Superman levels of durability does more damage to Batman's body than the person he is punching. Also, since Bizarro doesnt have Superman's morals, he should presumably be able to disable Batman in less than a millisecond using his speed. But that is assuming Bizarro's speed is in any way comparable to Superman's speed (which hasnt been shown yet. As of right this instant I would say he is a lot slower in fact).

#22 Posted by Theformermarionettegeist (160 posts) - - Show Bio

@redleader1: PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. It basically means that something that shouldnt happen based on previous evidence happens to keep the story moving.

Basically, its PIS for the reason I stated in that second post. Batman is a mere human, even with Kryptonite, each punch to someone with Superman levels of durability does more damage to Batman's body than the person he is punching. Also, since Bizarro doesnt have Superman's morals, he should presumably be able to disable Batman in less than a millisecond using his speed. But that is assuming Bizarro's speed is in any way comparable to Superman's speed (which hasnt been shown yet. As of right this instant I would say he is a lot slower in fact).

Well, Bizarro is a lot dumber than Superman...he almost seems mentally retarded in fact. Maybe it took him a second to realize Batman was punching him? In seriousness though, one of those scans was pre52 and the other was post, so you could always chalk it up to things being different in the New52, if you needed justification. It's cheap, but you can't really argue with it.

#23 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@theformermarionettegeist: Youre right of course in that sense. However, unless Batman stops being called a peak human, there is still no way outside of PIS that he can keep up with Superman/ or a Super Humanly Fast character.

I honestly dont know why DC doesnt just come right out and say that some mystical Buddhist energy overcame him while honing his body in Martial Arts and he is no longer just a peak human, but rather super human. It would at least add some consistency to his capabilities, and bring the PIS down some.

#24 Posted by JetiiMitra (8613 posts) - - Show Bio

The plot hole isn't that Grayson can't beat him, it's that he can't last in a fight any longer than he did as Robin. He's undergone enough development that having him at the same level as years ago only when it comes to Batman is kind of insulting to the character. But hey, Batman, right?

#25 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly,didn't dick learn a few new things as batman for that one year?.....That was really a question,I've only read the black mirror as far as dick as the bat is concerned. I honestly think that dick is close to Bruce's level of skill,He's faster,more agile,and his mind works more on the fly,instead of Bruce's armchair general,preparations kind of mindset,IMO I think dick is more adaptable in the middle of a fight. Though Bruce still has the experience, Strength,and Durability advantages. Strangely, I doubt other sidekicks ex sidekicks are thought to be so over classed by their mentors, are people thinking that Ollie can beat speedy and/or arsenal ,so problem? Or that Barry curbstombs wally?....I doubt it,we really must remember that these Hero/Sidekick duos worked together for X amount of months/years and while the sidekick were taught what they know from their mentors,ey both know how the other fights,and possibly how they think. Plus.....who's to say that they haven't learned anything afterwards? Good night ladies and gentlemen.

#26 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

From an In-Universe perspective:

  • The reason why is because Bruce is more seasoned and experienced then Nightwing is. It does make sense. Though with crimefighting, Nightwing is behind only a year. I do get where you're coming from, though.
  • However, the real reason he can't one-up Batman is: Dick Grayson. Himself. DG isn't going out to improve himself in that aspect of H2H or whatever he wants to one-up Bruce on. In short, he needs more then Batman's teachings. Pre-52, he got that. New 52, neither NW or Red Robin do. Only Jason got the mystical training. And that helps him.
  • If Nightwing is to improve in-universe, he needs other teachers. Honestly, over the years, people offered to teach Nightwing in place of Batman. Nightwing denied them all. Except maybe Richard Dragon(pre-52). He can't improve with Batman-Only teaching. Batman had multiple masters. Jason has multiple masters. Nightwing needs multiple masters. It's weird how many expressed wanting to teach him but he didn't even think about it. H2H skill is kinda important.

Out of Universe Perspective:

  • Writers wouldn't allow it. They know NW is only one notch away from being as good as Bruce and better. And he's popular(Comic Book Popular. General still is clueless) That's why they don't give a darn toot who beats DG or looks as good as Batman in anything. It doesn't threaten Batman's iconic status. Nightwing does. Some people think he makes Batman look boring or older. Lex is smarter then Batman. Does it threaten Batman's iconic status? Nope! Nightwing doing that makes it look funny. One uped by an ex sidekick. ._. Nightwing looking better then Batman in anyway would make people joke about how Batman sucks. So they'll keep him B-List for sure. Remember, DC really promotes Batman and Superman the most. They aint as interested as expanding universes and definately want to make Nightwing just a Bat-Support character.
  • Batman-Only fanatics would get mad. They'd argue "Batman doesn't teach him everything he knows. Only what Dick knows." Which itself is stupid. Who mentors and not teaches your all? If they fail, that's your fault. You deliberately withheld back possibly useful training. Mentors teach so their pupil can be just as good or better. Nothing less. Otherwise, don't call yourself a mentor. Batman also wants to stop crime, not be the best fighter with no competition. He needs to train people who will do it better then him. Especially in case he dies. If anything, Batman being paranoid of someone like Nightwing coming back to kick his a&$ is kinda funny when he's the nicest out of his apprentices. Since when is he concern about an ex-sidekick who can kick his butt? Being a hero ain't no popularity contest. Batman tells everyone in the Justice League that but goes home and finds relief his first apprentice can't kick his butt? I don't think so. That seems awfully stupid for Batman to be concern about that. But in any case, Batfans will argue that and Batman sells. :/

In any case, it does suck. Why? Cause this means for a Nightwing fan, we're not allowed to see our favorite character ascend to similar heights like any other hero. We're not going to see stories that make Batman occasionally look boring like If I went to read a great Aquaman or Wonder Woman Story arc. They're their own heroes. They can have a very compelling and interesting story that defines them and them only. NW fans can expect a lot of Batman-lite stories with less interesting character and less quality work put into it. NW can be very interesting and fun if the potential is able to be tapped without the concern of "Does it make NW look better then Bats?"

And the really funny part is NW gets this type of treatment because he was a side-kick. It's not looked as a mentor thing where Bruce is trying to make someone better then him and being selfless. Instead, writer tell it off like it's a bad thing. He succeeds as a mentor if one of his apprentice is truly better then him in something significant(not in just H2H). That's a good thing really. But writers only want Batman to be the one and only popular thing. So sometimes, not every character can fully prosper. :/

#27 Posted by SuperJedi17 (300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Yeah,that's been bugging me as a NW fan,even bugs me more now that I know he had extra training/impressive showings outside of common thugs preN52(started with N52) Yeah CD's been treating Dick like trash lately,in my opinion.

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