Nightwing's Problems Solved

#1 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

So as many of you that read the Nightwing forum already know, there a lot of complaints with Nightwing’s recent portrayal in the New 52. So instead of just crying about it I have thought of a solution and want to know what you guys think about it.

First the problems

1. Lack of connections to anyone in the DCU

2. Lack of growth over the years/stagnate/

3. Batman’s shadow/in Gotham

4. Not on a team

5. No Nemeses

Now the solution

As we know there are currently two timelines in the New 52,the main one where most of the characters are in and the Beyond time line where Batman Beyond, Superman Beyond, JL Beyond exists. My solution is creating a third timeline called the League of Titans timeline. For those of you that don’t know the League of Titans was briefly portrayed in “The Last Days Of Animal Man” they are basically the JL of the time between the older hero’s retirement and the Beyond universe.

How this solves the problems

1. Nightwing reestablishes all of his connections because in League of Titans he is the leader and is obviously well respectedand known in the DCU

2. This allows Nightwing to grow without a direct competition or overshadowing by Bruce since he is retired, and there is no way to really tell how good Bruce was before he retired since he is starting over in 52.

3. Nightwing will move back to Bludhaven and firmly have his own ground because according to DC, Gotham has a lot of crime before Terry but in Beyond there is no real super villains before Terry becomes the Bat so it’s understandable thatNW would focus his attention on more serious threats and by this time may have become more at home in Bludhaven.

4. This obviously puts him on a team

5. He can have his own villains that won’t be instantly be put on the bat radar because bats is retired

Additional Benefits

1. It gives Dick Grayson a future instead of the stupid “ I got shot in the eye and my daddy (Bruce) didn’t care so I quit, ohbut I understand cuz that’s how he is” excuse

2. It gives a place for all the other former sidekicks to thrive and grow as well.

#2 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

Some nice ideas but I'm not sure they'd all work.

Another timeline will just make things more confusing and messed up, especially when they could easily just have a Nightwing led Outsiders team (likely featuring those people who were in the original Titans pre-flashpoint but have since been stripped of that due to timeline compression).

Nightwing going back to Bludhaven would be a step back, Gotham is filled with villains and Nightwing is needed there. What DC needs to do is have Nightwing go head to head with the A-list villains and not just use him as some kind of collateral damage character in a Batman arc involving someone like Two-Face or Scarecrow. The guy doesn't need to go to another city to have his own villains, all DC has to do is allow Nightwing to face the top tier of villains or just develop new ones who'd be considered on par with Batman's greatest villains.

#3 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah let's avoid making other timelines or worlds for now.

The problem with going back to Bludhaven at this point is that it'd be too much like Dick's leaving Gotham for no reason, or because he can't cut it, which we all know isn't true. He needs to stay there for now, deal with some big leaguers on his own and build up his own Rogue's Gallery. In short, he should only leave Gotham when he's at his highest, not his lowest.

I agree Dick does need to be on a team, and develop relationships with other characters, good and bad guys, but he also needs a presence in Gotham right now.

#4 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont see why it would be confusing. If anything the time right now is perfect becuase the timeline is screwed anyway and other than a flashpoint 2 theres no way for DC to get rid of the "5 year problem" besides look at team 7, a different timeline involving a current character (amanda waller). Currently shes in both suicide sqaud and team seven, same character just different points in time. I dont think it would be that far of a leap for fans. about 15-20 years in the future Bruce starts to have heart problems like he does in Beyond. NW steps in to fill his place just like he did when he was "dead." he can even stay in gotham for a while, but eventually he would have to move on and for two simple reasons. 1. as long a dick is around terry or damian arent going to become the bat. 2. Gotham and Batman are interconnected, its like taking aquaman out of atlantis. Dick has stated he doesnt want to be the Bat, so it makes no sense to have him take over in gotham and would basically erase the need for terry. Bludhaven is NW city and if he stays in gotham he will still be shadowed by the bat. He doesnt have to leave right away but it make sense for him to do so down the road. Plus like i said this conncept isnt new its been already introduced in the Last Days of Animal Man which was around the same time as Blackest Night.

#5 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry but I find your logic of "the timeline is screwed anyway so DC should just do whatever they want" to be a tad childish. The last thing anyone wants or needs right now is another title set in a separate time-zone to the current ones.

The idea that Dick wouldn't become Batman in the event of Bruce being unable to fill the role is one that only holds stead in the animated universe, ultimately whilst Dick might say he doesn't want the cowl he'd fill the role out of sheer necessity. He'd become Batman because he HAS to, not because he wants to (much like Bruce). You say that the Beyond timeline is linked to the current timeline, whilst that might be the case it still doesn't make that connection 'right'. It throws up all kinds of awkward questions, for instance why the hell isn't Damian donning the cowl in the Beyond universe? The line of succession for the cowl pretty much goes Bruce, Dick, Damian, this is because when Bruce is getting too old Dick will be at his peak and similarly when Dick is too old Damian will be hitting his peak. Including Terry in the mix just messes everything up.

Also in this series set before the Beyond-verse how would you account for Tim, Damian and Terry? The idea that Dick wouldn't take up the mantle if Bruce couldn't do the job is just complete nonsense, ultimately every member of the family knows that Gotham needs a Batman irrespective of whether they'd want to fill the role themselves or not they'd do it if there was no other choice.

#6 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

First its an awful idea to say "things are already screwed anyways so why not?" Second, a book set 15-20 years in the future is nice, but it does nothing to solve Dick's current problems. Future Dick would not be current Dick, as in during the current Nightwing series Dick would still have the exact same problems, and nothing that happens in his future series could be applied to him. Fans aren't going to be satisfied, with "Yeah things suck for Dick now, but 15-20 years in the future everything with be right as rain!!"

Also, maybe I missed something, but i'm pretty sure Bludhaven's a toxic wasteland at the moment. That city's gone and Dick has no reason to go back there at this point in his career. Having him go anywhere is too much like writers admitting he can't cut it next to Bruce and work in the same city as his equal.

No disrespect to my favorite DC character, but I think we can all agree that what Dick wants to do doesn't matter in terms of what he needs to do. Just like in the aftermath of Final Crisis, if Bruce steps down and even goes so far as to ASK Dick to take over, Dick will. That's actually a problem in universe, as well as in the real world. Nightwing doesn't have the same impact as Batman. People don't fear him like they do Batman, which is why Gotham will always need one.

#7 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

How about this, after the current Joker arc Nightwing goes on a World Tour of sorts. I guess it could be in conjunction with the circus moving around. While it is great to see Dick establishing roots in Gotham I think it is actually making him a bit stagnant. So many Bats in Gotham (batwoman is even there, right?). This is funny because I actually wanted him in Gotham before (I see it as his birthright, almost) but right now staying there seems to be holding him back in terms of interacting with other characters. So I say he goes on tour with the circus or something (not too sure about that) but he does a series of short team-ups with other New-52 heroes: Superman, RHATO, TT (esp since I can't get my tim/dick bro relationship *shakes fist at DC*, Powergirl and Huntress (i think they are still in this continuity), maybe even WW (just because that'd be interesting). That way, we get to see him "grow-up" again, establish relationships and have the opportunity to become unstagnant.

On a side note, I'd really like to see a Dick/Babs event with Higgins and Simone writing their character's dialogue. They both capture their voices so well. It would be a great chance to get both of them out of Gotham while exploring how they work together as partners. Gives opprtunity for flashbacks as well to help fill in some missing history. Maybe Bruce sanctions them to do whatever global mission...that would help raise Nightwing's esteem, maybe.

Alternatively, I think it'd be cool if Dick ends up killing the Joker in Death of the Family (tired of them hurting his fam) but I doubt DC would do that. If anyone, they would give it to Babs. I dunno, he needs to do something important. And while seeing his interactions in Gotham is interesting (ex. the whole Sonia thing) it's kind of losing my attention.

Sorry this is so scatterbrained. lol

#8 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its a good idea, as long as there's a good reason in story for him to go on a world tour. Then he happens to run into other heroes, shows his stuff, makes some contacts, etc.

I prefer Dick/Kori, but i'm always down to see Dick and Barbara working together if it's handled well. I'm interested to see how their relationship progressed in the new timeline.

If Dick killed the Joker, i'm not sure how he'd ever be able to work with Bruce again, if only because Bruce has always spent so much time not killing the Joker lol

#9 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

A world tour may give current Dick more air to breath and help him out alot. As for the second timeline, I still see at as the only viable means for Dick Grayson to get out of the bats shadow. I mean he went on a world tour of sorts in the time between Robin and Nightwing and was still second to Batman after that trip. As its been stated over and over there is no reason NW should be at his current status, he should be a close to equal to Bruce. will Bruce always be better in some aspects yes, but Dick has shown to be more adept in others exspecially in making meaningful connections to other characters. Dick Grayson has been getting shit on for a long time now. I mean think about it his tenure with the team titans wasnt enough, leading the outsiders wasnt enough, leading the JLA wasnt enough, and becoming Batman wasnt enough. He is still seen a step lower than Bruce and as long as Bruce is around it will always be that way and NW will always be secondary to Bruce. Look at his current comic runs Haleys Circus---> the Court of Owls---> the story becomes all about bats n his brother. Everything there was to set up Bruce and even though it should have been much more about NW it wasnt even though it was a whole story about how the circus he grew up in was evil but the buck still stopped with Bruce. Then we have the biggest shit on Dick Grayson in the JLI, for along time it was "hes not quite ready for the JL" then when he became ready DC decided to make up some stupid excuse why Dick wasnt ready or didnt want to be on the JL mostly once again because of the compition with Bats, Then the JLI comes and who gets to join goddamn Batwing. Batwing can join the Justice League but not Dick Grayson are you kidding me? Dick could have taken that team and turned it around. If anyone could have lead that team and had the complete trust its Dick Grayson there was no need for Bats in JLI or Batwing.

If you guys really believe DC is gonna establish NW to be on the same level with Bats as long as Bats is around your off your rocker and ill give you the perfect example.

WALLY WEST

Wally was the Flash and has been the Flash for a very long time and has firmly established since 1986 until he was sent to limbo in 2011. Thats 25 years being the Flash. His and Dick Grayson stories are kinda simular both became sidekicks, both became titans, and both were in the JL at one point. the differnce is Wallys mentor died. until then Wally was a sidekick and actually in retirement until he decided to take up the mantle of his fallen mentor. but what waited down the line for Wally a giant shit. and that came when Berry Allan was re-introduced and it sent Wally to limbo. If anyone deserved to run side by side with there mentor it was Wally West. But DC has made it very clear that they arent willing to do that.

Now back to Dick Grayson when his mentor "died" he took up the mantle just as Wally did. However DC showed they werent willing to keep Bruce dead for very long and even though Dick Grayson as Batman was well recived and sold very well, DC wasnt willing to give up Bruce. Here comes the truth if DC isnt willing to give Wally who held the mantle for 25 years a shot a running side by side as equals with his mentor, they arent going to give it to Dick Grayson who held the mantle for 1. esspecially since his whole time with the Titans was basically erased.

Do I believe NW should be established as a near equal to Bruce in the current timeline yes, should Dick be given more cloudt yes, do I believe NW should be given the chance to face more established villians yes. Do I believe its going to happen anytime soon No.

For both Wally and Dick, despite what you and I think should happen, DC has made it clear that they will always come second as long as there mentor is around. Is the timeline idea perfect no, does it have a ton of flaws yes, but unless you guys can think of another way to get the former sidekicks out of their mentors shadow im all ears. But as I said DC isnt willing to give them that shot.

#10 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: I didn't read your post in depth but I think there is a fundamental difference btwn him and Dick: their fanbases. Sure, there are loads of Flash fans...more specifically Waly West fans. But DG has gotten more press time over the years. Most folks know that Batman has a Robin but do the unitiated really know that there was more than one Flash? Much less the different names? I guess i go back to Batman TAS and TNAS where Dick played an important role. Then Teen Titans, Young Justice....The Batman. I think that the image of Dick Grayson has been more widely disseminated and, for that reason, think that he has a larger/stronger fanbase than Wally

#11 Posted by BatWatch (2812 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

So as many of you that read the Nightwing forum already know, there a lot of complaints with Nightwing’s recent portrayal in the New 52. So instead of just crying about it I have thought of a solution and want to know what you guys think about it.

First the problems

1. Lack of connections to anyone in the DCU

2. Lack of growth over the years/stagnate/

3. Batman’s shadow/in Gotham

4. Not on a team

5. No Nemeses

Now the solution

As we know there are currently two timelines in the New 52,the main one where most of the characters are in and the Beyond time line where Batman Beyond, Superman Beyond, JL Beyond exists. My solution is creating a third timeline called the League of Titans timeline. For those of you that don’t know the League of Titans was briefly portrayed in “The Last Days Of Animal Man” they are basically the JL of the time between the older hero’s retirement and the Beyond universe.

How this solves the problems

1. Nightwing reestablishes all of his connections because in League of Titans he is the leader and is obviously well respectedand known in the DCU

2. This allows Nightwing to grow without a direct competition or overshadowing by Bruce since he is retired, and there is no way to really tell how good Bruce was before he retired since he is starting over in 52.

3. Nightwing will move back to Bludhaven and firmly have his own ground because according to DC, Gotham has a lot of crime before Terry but in Beyond there is no real super villains before Terry becomes the Bat so it’s understandable thatNW would focus his attention on more serious threats and by this time may have become more at home in Bludhaven.

4. This obviously puts him on a team

5. He can have his own villains that won’t be instantly be put on the bat radar because bats is retired

Additional Benefits

1. It gives Dick Grayson a future instead of the stupid “ I got shot in the eye and my daddy (Bruce) didn’t care so I quit, ohbut I understand cuz that’s how he is” excuse

2. It gives a place for all the other former sidekicks to thrive and grow as well.

I'm not really a fan of fixing bad writing by creating new timelines with good writing. I see your points, and they are good, but I've always found multiple universes to be a bit confusing. DC has done a good job with keeping the new 52 in the same universe (or should I say multiverse?) and adding other titles in where they can fit them (mostly digital exclusives). I don't really want to see things get clogged up by trying to figure out in which universe events take place. This is one of the things that has kept me away from reading X-Men comics.

I do agree with some of your problems though.

1. This is tragic. Nightwing was the seminal figure of the younger generation of heroes, but that seems to have been completely wiped out in the reboot.

2. and 3. are really the same point. It makes some sense that Nightwing would have little growth in the DCNU since there has been less time in which he could grow. What is he, twenty at most? In pre-Flashpoint, he established his identity as Nightwing and gained independence. He needs to do something like that in the DCNU as well.

4. I do not see that as a big problem actually. I suspect he will be on a team before long.

5. Nightwing actually does have a decent rogues gallery, but many of his villains overlap with Batman's. This really only makes sense considering his history in Gotham and his time filling in for Bruce.

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