Nightwing's "Joker"

#1 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wondering now that the DCU has been reset who do you think would make a great nemesis Nightwing? Who are your top candidates and why?

here are mine

1. Deathstroke- classic enemy of NW in his TT days and was responsible for the loss of Bludhaven, Deathstroke would outclass NW now but Dick Grayson as Batman was a beast, so if that Dick Grayson together with a possible relationship/ help of Lady Shiva may prove to be an interesting fight.

2. James Gordan jr,- this guy is twisted and was an excellent villain from NW time as Bats

3. Jericho- former teammate that eventually betrayed him that could be brought back, also probably on more of his level then Deathstroke

4. BlockBuster- from his days in Bludhaven, now that the DCU has been reset he could come back

5. Bane- this sounds kinda weird but Dick hasn't been to fond of Bane since he "broke the bat" Dick going against him and defeating him could show NW potential and growth. plus Bane is fairly intelligent and I think Banes raw power vs. Nightwing's agility and acrobatics could make an interesting fight.

#2 Posted by lilcraig92 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

He is already a A list charcter

#3 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Dick is definitely and A-lister in my book. You might want to edit that out of your OP lest people get focused on that and ignore your main points.

I actually just did an in-depth analysis of Dick Grayson's greatest villains, and I intend to write an article about it when I start my blog. I will say that two of the villains on your list are on mine as well.

#4 Posted by richardjohngrayson (421 posts) - - Show Bio

James Gordan Jr. is who I pick.

I love Batman: The Black Mirror.

#5 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I by no means meant hes a bad hero, hes actually my favorite. What I meant is that he doesnt seem at to be on the same level as other heros like Bats. heck Id even argue that Wally West made a more successful transition from sidekick to hero than NW at this point. I mean Wally was the Flash for a long time, whereas NW is still in the Bats shadow a bit and was only Batman for a year. Granted NW doesnt want to be Batman but his taking up the Bat mantle was seen as a promotion and Wally was fully inthroned as the Flash for quite a while.

#6 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke immediately comes to mind, but at the moment they don't have anywhere near the history they did Pre-Flashpoint. Give that back to them and he's number 1 I think. James Gordon Jr. is an interesting character and brings some Joker like elements to the table, but he's different enough from the Joker so that people won't just classify him as Dick Grayson's Joker (If that makes sense) He can stand on his own as a villain and still be a credible nemesis to Dick. I don't think Jericho could work. He'd (to me) just serve as kind of a warm up for Slade. Blockbuster could be a nemesis. I don't want him to be the biggest one, but he could definitely play a major role in Nightwings future. (If we choose to compare villains I see him as being similar to Black Mask or Penguin, maybe a little Bane) If Bane's written properly i'd enjoy seeing him. I think Dick could also benefit from some larger villains with goals beyond just wanting to rule a city or getting rich.

#7 Posted by X9 (757 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

James Gordan Jr. is who I pick.

I love Batman: The Black Mirror.

Interesting...

#8 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Flashpoint it seems that DC wanted Jason to fill that role...

#9 Posted by The Stegman (23765 posts) - - Show Bio

James Gordon Jr. would make a fantastic main villain for Dick they're exact opposites

#10 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke, Gordon Jr., and Bane are some tight choices. Gordon especially, given his relationship with Babs.

#11 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

I heavily support everyone you listed except for Bane. I guess it would be fun seeing Nightwing and Bane tussle a time or too, but I don't like thinking of him as a "Nightwing enemy" like I do the others you listed. James Gordon Jr. and Jericho especially. Blockbuster only if he's done right. And Deathstroke... well, if the pre-52 history is in tact, he would be the perfect arch nemesis for Dick, although New 52 Deathstroke may be a little out of Nightwing's league.

#12 Posted by Squalleon (4494 posts) - - Show Bio

@SandMan_: NO,just Grant Morisson! Previous Red hood stories had him like his new 52 counter part

#13 Edited by Nightwingdg (83 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always thought of Deathstroke being Nightwing's Joker/Lex. Still hoping Kyle Higgins writes a really amazing story to cement that. I really liked Raymond(Saiko), and William Cobb.

I remember those days on the back of the comic card it would say Arch Nemesis: _________

#14 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

@SandMan_ said:

Pre-Flashpoint it seems that DC wanted Jason to fill that role...

That is true, but I never really bought into Jason being a nemesis to Dick.

#15 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd actually like to see Bane as NW's nemesis. Though I lean more towards Deathstroke just because he seems more of the agile type enemy preferable for Nightwing.

#16 Posted by Batnandez (511 posts) - - Show Bio

the giggler?

#17 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@X9 said:

@richardjohngrayson said:

James Gordan Jr. is who I pick.

I love Batman: The Black Mirror.

Interesting...

I pick James Gordon, Jr. Snyder made a convincing case for Gordon Jr. as a Grayson arch nemesis, comparing their points of origin, choices, and outlooks. Hopefully it's a matter of when Higgins wants to use the character.

#18 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

I looked at thread title and thought of:

#19 Posted by The_Soverighn (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

I looked at thread title and thought of:

#20 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: ......hfhfhf. gave me the chills

#21 Edited by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: I guess we know what Kyle meant when he said "Nightwing doesn't HAVE to be Dick Grayson right?".. indeed.

#22 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@wessaari: I guess we know what Kyle meant when he said "Nightwing doesn't HAVE to be Dick Grayson right?".. indeed.

That image opens up a whole new can of worms though. I mean, is Kyle gonna write an entire issue where Joker is masquerading as Nightwing but only reveal it right near the end of the issue?

#23 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

#24 Posted by Z3RO180 (6426 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: i bet thats bruces worst ever fear. To see one of his kids turn out like that.

#25 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

#26 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

#27 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

James Gordon Jr. and Bane would be the two I'd like to see Dick up against.

#28 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

#29 Posted by Black_Claw (2957 posts) - - Show Bio

Either Deathstroke or James Gordon Jr. I never really liked blockbuster that much and having Bane for an arch nemesis sounds interesting.

#30 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

#31 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

I don't follow.

#32 Posted by tahmidk (283 posts) - - Show Bio

james gordon jr deffo

#33 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

I don't follow.

Ok, in Jason's new origin he received a message on the Bat Computer from an anonymous person with the information on his mother. He didn't check to see who it was or anything, he just ran right off to find his mom, which even he realizes was stupid. Now, we've seen that Joker basically controlled Jason's entire life. From his dad being arrested to Jason becoming Robin. We also saw that Joker faked his mother's death. So chances are it was him that sent that info to Jason. To do that, he'd have to have known not only how to gain access to the Bat Computer, but the exact time Jason would be on it, alone in the cave. To know that, he'd have to be able to see into the cave. Which is what I mean by he was spying on them while they were in the house, and if he could do that, and was never discovered, no reason to think he hasn't still been doing it for all these years.

#34 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

I don't follow.

Ok, in Jason's new origin he received a message on the Bat Computer from an anonymous person with the information on his mother. He didn't check to see who it was or anything, he just ran right off to find his mom, which even he realizes was stupid. Now, we've seen that Joker basically controlled Jason's entire life. From his dad being arrested to Jason becoming Robin. We also saw that Joker faked his mother's death. So chances are it was him that sent that info to Jason. To do that, he'd have to have known not only how to gain access to the Bat Computer, but the exact time Jason would be on it, alone in the cave. To know that, he'd have to be able to see into the cave. Which is what I mean by he was spying on them while they were in the house, and if he could do that, and was never discovered, no reason to think he hasn't still been doing it for all these years.

I get where you're coming from. But you have to remember that its the Joker, whilst guys like Two Face or Ra's might spy on them continuously if they had the means to do so we can't assume that Joker would do the same. The guy is completely insane, chances are he hacks through all Bruce's security without much issue but ultimately doesn't remember how the actual process works and in any case Bruce probably changes protocols every 24 hours meaning the same process could never be repeated, moreover it's not in Joker's character to obsessively spy on Batman. He'd be more likely to hack in, cause some trouble and then leave.

#35 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

He doesn't need a "joker". As for a nemesis... Deathstroke/Saiko/Shrike.

#36 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@LuigiBat said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

I don't follow.

Ok, in Jason's new origin he received a message on the Bat Computer from an anonymous person with the information on his mother. He didn't check to see who it was or anything, he just ran right off to find his mom, which even he realizes was stupid. Now, we've seen that Joker basically controlled Jason's entire life. From his dad being arrested to Jason becoming Robin. We also saw that Joker faked his mother's death. So chances are it was him that sent that info to Jason. To do that, he'd have to have known not only how to gain access to the Bat Computer, but the exact time Jason would be on it, alone in the cave. To know that, he'd have to be able to see into the cave. Which is what I mean by he was spying on them while they were in the house, and if he could do that, and was never discovered, no reason to think he hasn't still been doing it for all these years.

I get where you're coming from. But you have to remember that its the Joker, whilst guys like Two Face or Ra's might spy on them continuously if they had the means to do so we can't assume that Joker would do the same. The guy is completely insane, chances are he hacks through all Bruce's security without much issue but ultimately doesn't remember how the actual process works and in any case Bruce probably changes protocols every 24 hours meaning the same process could never be repeated, moreover it's not in Joker's character to obsessively spy on Batman. He'd be more likely to hack in, cause some trouble and then leave.

His plan with Jason says otherwise. As I said, he pretty much planned out Jason's entire life. That's years of constant focus and dedication being put in, and to again find a time when Bruce was away from the cave and Jason was the only one there would require him to do a bit more than spy once and get lucky. To also know when the right time to kill Jason would be, so that Bruce would suffer the maximum amount of anguish also requires constant monitoring. Perhaps not every single day, but i'd say at least on a regular basis.

#37 Posted by vernierhawk001 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke if NEw 52 has the same history as pre.

Bane would be interesting.

And James would be an amazing choice because not only would it be a childhood friend and something fresh...but it also plays a bit on his relationship with Babs.

The problem for me is that I make all these comments based on history before New-52. I don't think any of these characters really have the same impact for him right now. Did Black Mirror even happen?

#38 Posted by vernierhawk001 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

Deathstroke, Gordon Jr., and Bane are some tight choices. Gordon especially, given his relationship with Babs.

Shoulda read your comment before I posted mine. lol

#39 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@LuigiBat said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

As i've said in the Jason Todd section, I find it very very hard to believe Joker knows Batman's real identity, and has never taken a shot at anyone of his allies/holdings like this before.

Perhaps Joker was waiting for the right time. I subscribe to the "Joker is meta-aware" theory, though.

Maybe. IDK I want a fully detailed explanation from somebody, because it seems like that time would've come a while ago (Going with the downright ridiculous idea that DC wants us to believe that every story from Pre-Flashpoint happened)

The timeliness of "Death of the Family" fits in the with the new status quo. Again, if Joker is meta-aware, he'll realize he's in an altered timeline and poke fun at history in his own inimitable way.

That's true, it also hints besides him knowing about the new universe, that he's been spying on the bat family. I'm talking like while they're in their house spying.

I don't follow.

Ok, in Jason's new origin he received a message on the Bat Computer from an anonymous person with the information on his mother. He didn't check to see who it was or anything, he just ran right off to find his mom, which even he realizes was stupid. Now, we've seen that Joker basically controlled Jason's entire life. From his dad being arrested to Jason becoming Robin. We also saw that Joker faked his mother's death. So chances are it was him that sent that info to Jason. To do that, he'd have to have known not only how to gain access to the Bat Computer, but the exact time Jason would be on it, alone in the cave. To know that, he'd have to be able to see into the cave. Which is what I mean by he was spying on them while they were in the house, and if he could do that, and was never discovered, no reason to think he hasn't still been doing it for all these years.

I get where you're coming from. But you have to remember that its the Joker, whilst guys like Two Face or Ra's might spy on them continuously if they had the means to do so we can't assume that Joker would do the same. The guy is completely insane, chances are he hacks through all Bruce's security without much issue but ultimately doesn't remember how the actual process works and in any case Bruce probably changes protocols every 24 hours meaning the same process could never be repeated, moreover it's not in Joker's character to obsessively spy on Batman. He'd be more likely to hack in, cause some trouble and then leave.

His plan with Jason says otherwise. As I said, he pretty much planned out Jason's entire life. That's years of constant focus and dedication being put in, and to again find a time when Bruce was away from the cave and Jason was the only one there would require him to do a bit more than spy once and get lucky. To also know when the right time to kill Jason would be, so that Bruce would suffer the maximum amount of anguish also requires constant monitoring. Perhaps not every single day, but i'd say at least on a regular basis.

I can't imagine Joker would think to do anything outside of that though, I mean he'd relentlessly spy as a means of ensuring his plan for Jason worked but would he do anything aside from that? The guy has a different thought process to everyone else, he'd go to any lengths to ensure Jason's life played out along his preferred path, effectively playing god, but once that plan was a success I can imagine he'd just move on to something else.

#40 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he'd put the same amount of effort into this current plan as he did into the one with Jason. So that after his success with Jason he'd probably stop monitoring constantly, because he won. That's what Jason's death has always been known as for Joker. The Day He Won. However, now he's trying to do something even bigger, so i think he would've needed to start up his surveillance again, and perhaps at least have kept it up every now and again over the years just to keep track of his enemies. I want to say that Bruce would change the codes, search the cave and everything, but hey if the Joker got past him once, I think he could do it again no matter what Bruce did. He operates on an entirely different plane of existence than everyone else it seems.

#41 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

I think he'd put the same amount of effort into this current plan as he did into the one with Jason. So that after his success with Jason he'd probably stop monitoring constantly, because he won. That's what Jason's death has always been known as for Joker. The Day He Won. However, now he's trying to do something even bigger, so i think he would've needed to start up his surveillance again, and perhaps at least have kept it up every now and again over the years just to keep track of his enemies. I want to say that Bruce would change the codes, search the cave and everything, but hey if the Joker got past him once, I think he could do it again no matter what Bruce did. He operates on an entirely different plane of existence than everyone else it seems.

I guess it depends on what impact Jason's death really had in the New 52-verse. I can imagine that his death post-flashpoint caused Bruce to become more paranoid and wary of Joker, given the compressed timeline Bruce wouldn't have had as much experience with Joker prior to Jason's death so perhaps Joker was only able to spy on them so easily and without being detected because Bruce didn't think him capable of it. I'd be interested in finding out whether in the aftermath of Jason's death Bruce discovered that they were being watched, if he did find out they'd been spied on you can bet your bottom dollar that he'd make it nigh on impossible for it to happen again and he'd likely run constant checks to prevent it from happening again. Would this stop Joker everytime he tried? Probably not, but I can't imagine he'd be able to do achieve the same level of infiltration.

#42 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@LuigiBat said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

I think he'd put the same amount of effort into this current plan as he did into the one with Jason. So that after his success with Jason he'd probably stop monitoring constantly, because he won. That's what Jason's death has always been known as for Joker. The Day He Won. However, now he's trying to do something even bigger, so i think he would've needed to start up his surveillance again, and perhaps at least have kept it up every now and again over the years just to keep track of his enemies. I want to say that Bruce would change the codes, search the cave and everything, but hey if the Joker got past him once, I think he could do it again no matter what Bruce did. He operates on an entirely different plane of existence than everyone else it seems.

I guess it depends on what impact Jason's death really had in the New 52-verse. I can imagine that his death post-flashpoint caused Bruce to become more paranoid and wary of Joker, given the compressed timeline Bruce wouldn't have had as much experience with Joker prior to Jason's death so perhaps Joker was only able to spy on them so easily and without being detected because Bruce didn't think him capable of it. I'd be interested in finding out whether in the aftermath of Jason's death Bruce discovered that they were being watched, if he did find out they'd been spied on you can bet your bottom dollar that he'd make it nigh on impossible for it to happen again and he'd likely run constant checks to prevent it from happening again. Would this stop Joker everytime he tried? Probably not, but I can't imagine he'd be able to do achieve the same level of infiltration.

I think that's a possibility and has always been an element of the character. Just how aware is the Joker? Just how insane is he? (In terms of how it effects his overall competency) I think that we need to realize that with the condensed timeline, not only is Bruce's time with the Joker cut short, but his own...competence would also be affected I think. Maybe he has indeed been through everything that he went through in the Pre-Flashpoint Universe, but he hasn't had as many years to process it all and grow from the experiences, so I think that if he happened to miss the Joker spying on him it could be understood. Because clearly the Joker knows full well what he's doing. To hack into the bat computer at all, hell to bring his plan for Jason together is something on a whole new level. In terms of the time after Jason's death...IDK its iffy with the new timeline, and I suppose it depends on how you view it. It seems to me that he's been keeping a close eye on Batman. The way he talked at the start of this event, about how Bruce has become reliant on the others, seems very familiar, as if he's been watching Bruce's methods from a distance, but still close enough to see these changes. So maybe he wasn't watching Bruce like he was Jason, but i'd say he watched more than close enough, and probably figured out the identities of all the others years ago whenever he figured Bruce's out, and then at least kept track of what cities they were all in.

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