Whilst reading through issue 16 I couldn't help but think that Joker's actions towards Dick were actually somewhat flawed in their logic and reasoning. It's been made pretty damn clear that Joker desires to wipe out the Bat-family from the face of the earth as he believes that their presence causes Batman to be weak as it gives him something to rely on and fall back on. However with his actions towards Dick I couldn't help but think that Joker will actually be making Dick stronger in the long run (assuming they have a lasting effect), he calls Dick the '"worst of the Bat-fakes" and the one who makes Batman the weakest (possibly as he is Batman's strongest ally in the family), and then he proceeds to try and destroy Dick's trust in people which is the main thing that separates him from Bruce.

See what I'm getting at? On the one hand Joker berates Dick for making Batman weaker but then his actions could potentially serve to make Dick more like Bruce and therefore an even bigger 'Bat-fake'. If Joker destroys Dick's ability to trust people it'll have a knock-on effect on everything else, he'll likely hone his skills to levels equal to Bruce as a result of losing his trust in people as (like Bruce) he'll believe he can only rely on himself and must therefore be as strong as he possibly can be.

I Joker wants Dick to leave and stay gone he says something about Dick being the worst bat fake bc Batman give him everything and Dick threw it away and Dick Flew away from the Bat only to come back and try to set up a "nest" in gotham again so really he is saying to dick you should have left and stayed gone instead you came back and became a part of the Bat family that makes my king weak, also Batman trained you and you were strong enough to grow up and leave become your own man but you came back to be a bat fake again.

@LuigiBat said:

Whilst reading through issue 16 I couldn't help but think that Joker's actions towards Dick were actually somewhat flawed in their logic and reasoning. It's been made pretty damn clear that Joker desires to wipe out the Bat-family from the face of the earth as he believes that their presence causes Batman to be weak as it gives him something to rely on and fall back on. However with his actions towards Dick I couldn't help but think that Joker will actually be making Dick stronger in the long run (assuming they have a lasting effect), he calls Dick the '"worst of the Bat-fakes" and the one who makes Batman the weakest (possibly as he is Batman's strongest ally in the family), and then he proceeds to try and destroy Dick's trust in people which is the main thing that separates him from Bruce.

See what I'm getting at? On the one hand Joker berates Dick for making Batman weaker but then his actions could potentially serve to make Dick more like Bruce and therefore an even bigger 'Bat-fake'. If Joker destroys Dick's ability to trust people it'll have a knock-on effect on everything else, he'll likely hone his skills to levels equal to Bruce as a result of losing his trust in people as (like Bruce) he'll believe he can only rely on himself and must therefore be as strong as he possibly can be.

im sorry, but i dont really follow that. Starters, if Joker has been following the Bat-clan around for a year, and taking extensive footnotes, he knows that Dick and Bruce are very different. Is it possible that doing what he did could make Dick stronger, inadvertantly yes I believe so. But it won't make him like Batman, it will force Dick to become stronger and more isolated in his own way. Also, im clearing the air here, Joker's plan to kill (and i mean literally kill) the Bat-family will fail, so if Dick does lose his trust in Batman than that part of Joker's plan will actually succeed. Joker isnt expecting the Family to live past his fancy dinner party, he just wants to mentally torture them, reveal their weaknesses and bring them to their lowest before he kills them. So is Joker inadvertantly making Dick stronger, I hope so, but severing his trust in people works in the Joker's interest as he wants to destroy the Bat-Family one way or another. Joker could give 2 craps about Nightwing, becuase he isnt batman. Dick is Bruce's closest ally next to Gordon and Alfred, and without him Joker's plan will succeed.

Granted, if Dick does keep his trust (which i think sooner or later will eventually happen) than I agree that Joker has failed. But Dick does seem pretty pissed at Bruce as of late, so i doubt they arent going to be as close as they once were.

Well, let's look at it this way: Batman was his darkest when he feuded with Nightwing. These feelings increased after Jason died. Batman was more reckless, violent - perfect for the Joker. Joker perhaps wants to recreate this bitterness. If Nightwing withdraws from Batman, there goes Joker's biggest obstacle. Joker easily Nightwing more than he does the other Robins.

Just to clear a couple of things up.

I know Joker isn't intending to make Dick stronger, my point is more that the way he's going about making Batman stronger with his actions towards Nightwing will potentiality result in Dick becoming more like Bruce. This is obviously not what Joker wants,he wants Dick to be dead for being a knockoff of Batman who in turn weakens Batman, if his actions make Dick stronger/more like Bruce its really a massive oversight in his plan. He knows that to get 'his' Batman back he must break the bond between Dick and Bruce, this can be achieved with or without Dick dying but in the event that Dick lives he'll develop into a stronger character and become even more like Bruce.

@entropy_aegis said:

Nightwing took a big L last week.

Getting owned by Joker in a crossover event check

Concludes in Batman# 17 check.

Haly Circus gone check

Most of the supporting cast killed check

Deathstroke going after The Outlaws(for some non monetary reason) check

Tim referring to Jason as the closest thing to a brother(WHAT?) check

In addition he's no longer the founder of the Teen Titans,his best friends have either been removed from continuity(Donna,Wally) or have never met him(Cyborg),his relationship with Kori was merely a forgettable fling in her eyes.

He has been reduced to a reject,a poor Daredevil who's only job is to clean up Batman's left overs.

Good Bye Nightwing.

Agree on many levels. I think it serves to possibly start a Dick who leaves Gotham to "find himself" which could bring a resurgence to the Dick Grayson we all know and love who crossed worlds with the Titans and made friends with everyone he met. Personally, I hope this drives him to seek out Shiva...

On another note, I was really hoping that there would be the briefest moment during this crossover where the Kori/Dick relationship would be examined from his eyes. Honestly, I only wanted one panel where he is rushing out to address some threat and happens to pass by a monitor that shows a picture of Kori with Roy and the others in Gotham. It catches him off guard for a second and he pauses as he hasa brief flashback but then continues on to do his business. While I think its a bit harsh to say it was no more than a fling for her (she still has the weird thing about his scent, right?) I don't like the ongoings with her and Roy. (i'd actually like to see Dick kick Roy's butt). We may get more of that with Tynion taking over the book....may even see Roy and Dick cross paths

@LuigiBat said:

Whilst reading through issue 16 I couldn't help but think that Joker's actions towards Dick were actually somewhat flawed in their logic and reasoning. It's been made pretty damn clear that Joker desires to wipe out the Bat-family from the face of the earth as he believes that their presence causes Batman to be weak as it gives him something to rely on and fall back on. However with his actions towards Dick I couldn't help but think that Joker will actually be making Dick stronger in the long run (assuming they have a lasting effect), he calls Dick the '"worst of the Bat-fakes" and the one who makes Batman the weakest (possibly as he is Batman's strongest ally in the family), and then he proceeds to try and destroy Dick's trust in people which is the main thing that separates him from Bruce.

See what I'm getting at? On the one hand Joker berates Dick for making Batman weaker but then his actions could potentially serve to make Dick more like Bruce and therefore an even bigger 'Bat-fake'. If Joker destroys Dick's ability to trust people it'll have a knock-on effect on everything else, he'll likely hone his skills to levels equal to Bruce as a result of losing his trust in people as (like Bruce) he'll believe he can only rely on himself and must therefore be as strong as he possibly can be.

What I found interesting about all of this was how so many of the things Joker said to Dick have been said in some way, shape, or form on one of these forums. Calling him Bat-lite and a sham. Questioning his decision to settle in Gotham. Highlighting the fact that Dick's real strength is his trust in people. Etc

@entropy_aegis said:

Nightwing took a big L last week.

Getting owned by Joker in a crossover event check

Concludes in Batman# 17 check.

Haly Circus gone check

Most of the supporting cast killed check

Deathstroke going after The Outlaws(for some non monetary reason) check

Tim referring to Jason as the closest thing to a brother(WHAT?) check

In addition he's no longer the founder of the Teen Titans,his best friends have either been removed from continuity(Donna,Wally) or have never met him(Cyborg),his relationship with Kori was merely a forgettable fling in her eyes.

He has been reduced to a reject,a poor Daredevil who's only job is to clean up Batman's left overs.

Good Bye Nightwing.

Absolutely sad

Someone in DC surely hates Nightwing