Nightwing is the logical step for Gotham after Batman

  • 66 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quite clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

#2 Posted by JSH92 (414 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, very nice analysis. Although I do question your use of the word inherit when you say "Gotham would inherit a hero..." I feel like it connotes some sort of predestined outcome, when in reality it's Nightwing's (or whoever takes Batman's place) own choice.

But yea, the stuff you talk about it your post is a lot of why I like Nightwing more than Batman. I mean, his tragic origin is very similar to Batman's, but yet he didn't let it turn him into a dark, two-faced person. In short, I like his personality a lot more.

That being said, I don't think anyone will ever really replace Batman. I mean, he's been around for over 70 years already. The day Batman dies permanently from DC publications will be the same day that DC itself dies.

#3 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@JSH92 said:

Hmm, very nice analysis. Although I do question your use of the word inherit when you say "Gotham would inherit a hero..." I feel like it connotes some sort of predestined outcome, when in reality it's Nightwing's (or whoever takes Batman's place) own choice.

But yea, the stuff you talk about it your post is a lot of why I like Nightwing more than Batman. I mean, his tragic origin is very similar to Batman's, but yet he didn't let it turn him into a dark, two-faced person. In short, I like his personality a lot more.

That being said, I don't think anyone will ever really replace Batman. I mean, he's been around for over 70 years already. The day Batman dies permanently from DC publications will be the same day that DC itself dies.

Thank you. And I know, that's why I wrote "in an ideal world". But you're right.

#4 Posted by badgame (41 posts) - - Show Bio

This actually makes sense.

#5 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12578 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought Bruce told Tim that the city was his responsibility after he died? And he only took the cowl to get Dick to do it.

#6 Posted by JSH92 (414 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: Ah, OK. Gotcha.

#7 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12578 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree with this

#8 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP

#9 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1558 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Well said sir!!!

It all ties into the point that's constantly made about Dick. He has a problem, he confronts it, deals with it, and moves on. Bruce doesn't. It was pointed out during the Court of Owls event that Bruce thinks of Gotham as his city, but he doesn't really understand it. People have said this before as well and in a way they're right. Sure he knows how to fight villains and everything, but the city has only changed for the worse since he became Batman, and despite taking care of villains and putting them in Jail and saving people's lives he never does anything permanent to make the city itself better. Its as if when he thinks of Gotham he has decided it will always be the way it is, instead of trying to actually improve on the city itself.

#10 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

#11 Posted by richardjohngrayson (414 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

100% agree. Great post, Sir.

#12 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

#13 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1558 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree. It's very easy to say Gotham needs Batman, because people fear him in a way they don't fear Bruce. However, to truly save Gotham, i'd say people shouldn't fear Dick. At least not all people. Villains should of course, but the average joe should really look up to him like people do Superman, or they did Wally. (SMH) As said, it took time for Bruce to build up his rep. You can't really expect people to look at Nightwing with the same awe as Batman right away. What would be good would be for Bruce to leave Gotham in Dick's hands for like a year (Maybe go work with Batman Inc. so people know where Batman is), but Dick stays in the Nightwing role and aptly handles things.

#14 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

#15 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

#16 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Great points. I will write a full reply when I have the time to write out a good one. Briefly addressing the last point you made in 3a, however, I don't think its dishonest. Dick would deliever a message of hope in his philanthropist role. Yes. But the way I see Batman/DG, he would not have the attitude that Bruce did. He would wear the same costume but have a whole different outlook on what he's doing. Thus, he wouldn't have the whole "I'm fighting a battle I can't win" mentality. Its just not DG. That's what I was trying to state last time (not too eloquently, I'm afraid). I mentioned all of Dick's identity struggles when he donned the cowl (note: he overcame those and decided to make the role his own...correct me if I'm wrong...really) to support the idea that he CAN wear the suit while being his own man--showing that he is not bound to being the same type of Batman that Bruce was.

In summary: Same suit, different motivation. I think that the "history" has show that he can do it/has done it.

#17 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001: Thank you. This is fun. I will write a response to your point later in the week.

#18 Posted by Majora (3 posts) - - Show Bio

I looked at this, saw a comment three paragraphs long, and realized it was impossible for me to ever surpass some of the thought-provoking, intelligent ideas here. Well done, you future analytical scientists

#19 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@Majora said:

I looked at this, saw a comment three paragraphs long, and realized it was impossible for me to ever surpass some of the thought-provoking, intelligent ideas here. Well done, you future analytical scientists

Lol...let your voice be heard!

#20 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001: Thank you. This is fun. I will write a response to your point later in the week.

Lol...yeah, it is fun. I might get some down time tomorrow, in which case, I may have a chance to respond to your last long one. then you can reply all at once. Lol

#21 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Great points. I will write a full reply when I have the time to write out a good one. Briefly addressing the last point you made in 3a, however, I don't think its dishonest. Dick would deliever a message of hope in his philanthropist role. Yes. But the way I see Batman/DG, he would not have the attitude that Bruce did. He would wear the same costume but have a whole different outlook on what he's doing. Thus, he wouldn't have the whole "I'm fighting a battle I can't win" mentality. Its just not DG. That's what I was trying to state last time (not too eloquently, I'm afraid). I mentioned all of Dick's identity struggles when he donned the cowl (note: he overcame those and decided to make the role his own...correct me if I'm wrong...really) to support the idea that he CAN wear the suit while being his own man--showing that he is not bound to being the same type of Batman that Bruce was.

In summary: Same suit, different motivation. I think that the "history" has show that he can do it/has done it.

Hmm. First, let me say that what your proposing sounded reasonable to me at one point in life. Dick did manage to vanquish his doubt after defeating James Gordon, Jr. Dick has shown time and again that his "Batman" is a crowd-pleaser and team player; an outstanding one, too. But in this scenario above, are Bruce and Joker alive?

Joker completely transformed himself the two times Batman "died":

  • In "Going Sane", Joker "murders" Batman, shocking him back to normalcy. Joker undergoes plastic surgery and leads a honest life. He even has a lady friend. When Batman turns up alive, Joker mutilates himself and starts all over again.
  • The Dr. Hurt saga saw Joker give up his usual gags for a new act, novelist Oberon Sexton. "Sexton" aided Dick and Damian in protecting the Batman legacy from the likes of the pompous Simon Hurt. During this time, Joker makes his reverence for "the Batman" and his lore clear, including Dick ("The first and best Boy Wonder's in the hands of the most evil man on Earth! What are you going to do about it?" - Batman and Robin #16)

Yes, Joker does love Batman and Co. in his own way. Snyder digs this up in "Death of the Family"; Joker attacks the Bat-Family to toughen Batman up. I mean, he cares about Batman enough to give him tough love, almost like a parent. That brings us to this: All three stories mentioned here share one theme: Joker believes he knows what's best for Batman.

In "Gone Sane", Joker fulfills his apparently possible mission to murder Batman, if not just make him crack, and retires peacefully. "Oberon Sexton" fought Hurt with Dick and Damian; after all, he's just as much a part of the Bat-Clan as Dick. Why should he let Dr. Hurt trash the legacy? Now, Joker admonishes Batman for going soft, challenging him and his proteges to get them on their toes again.

Which brings me back to my question: Are Bruce and Joker alive when Dick takes the cowl?

If Bruce and Joker are both dead, Dick can wear the cowl without having to imitate Bruce.

If Bruce is dead or retired and Joker is still alive, there lies a problem. No one assumed the cowl in "Going Sane". Joker may have knew the Omega Effect wouldn't hold Batman for long during the Dr. Hurt saga. If Bruce dies, there's a strong possibility Joker will retire, especially if he kills him. Bruce retiring, however, is another story. Joker voiced his displeasure at Dick playing "Gotham's Batman" in Detective Comics #881. Dick's not his soul-nemesis; that's Bruce. What if Joker does not accept Dick as the one and only Batman, and tries to bait Bruce out of retirement? Joker plans on traumatizing the entire Bat-Clan to whip Batman into shape. Imagine what he'll do to get "his" Batman back.

If Bruce dies, there's still the matter of Batman and his legacy. I like to think Bruce is the righteous, flawed man who fights crime with a cape and grim disposition. He's private, guarded, and secretive. Dick's Batman is a like a mashup of Superman and Zorro - charming, charismatic, someone dressed in black the people can trust without a doubt. As it is, he and Joker personify the ultimate good and bad forces in Batman's life (see: Dick Grayson = Joker ). If Dick were to public opinion on Batman around, lighten him up, make him dashing, what are the chances of Joker reacting in disgust? Couldn't one argue that Dick taking on the cowl would mellow out the ever-serious character Joker spent his life trying to crack? Not the man, the "idea", like a diehard fan hating the way a new writer handles his favorite character. Let's say Dick and Joker represent the polar values of good and evil in Batman's world. If Batman transforms from a flawed, righteous man to the ultimate good, imagine how much energy that Joker would spend just trying to make HIM crack, both for his nature and for watering down his favorite character. That is, unless he retires. Or dies. But if not, how would Gotham fare against this version of Joker? Would the city progress or would it stay stagnant, maybe even worsen?

#22 Posted by Twentyfive (2843 posts) - - Show Bio

You don't say.

#23 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Great points. I will write a full reply when I have the time to write out a good one. Briefly addressing the last point you made in 3a, however, I don't think its dishonest. Dick would deliever a message of hope in his philanthropist role. Yes. But the way I see Batman/DG, he would not have the attitude that Bruce did. He would wear the same costume but have a whole different outlook on what he's doing. Thus, he wouldn't have the whole "I'm fighting a battle I can't win" mentality. Its just not DG. That's what I was trying to state last time (not too eloquently, I'm afraid). I mentioned all of Dick's identity struggles when he donned the cowl (note: he overcame those and decided to make the role his own...correct me if I'm wrong...really) to support the idea that he CAN wear the suit while being his own man--showing that he is not bound to being the same type of Batman that Bruce was.

In summary: Same suit, different motivation. I think that the "history" has show that he can do it/has done it.

Hmm. First, let me say that what your proposing sounded reasonable to me at one point in life. Dick did manage to vanquish his doubt after defeating James Gordon, Jr. Dick has shown time and again that his "Batman" is a crowd-pleaser and team player; an outstanding one, too. But in this scenario above, are Bruce and Joker alive?

Joker completely transformed himself the two times Batman "died":

  • In "Going Sane", Joker "murders" Batman, shocking him back to normalcy. Joker undergoes plastic surgery and leads a honest life. He even has a lady friend. When Batman turns up alive, Joker mutilates himself and starts all over again.
  • The Dr. Hurt saga saw Joker give up his usual gags for a new act, novelist Oberon Sexton. "Sexton" aided Dick and Damian in protecting the Batman legacy from the likes of the pompous Simon Hurt. During this time, Joker makes his reverence for "the Batman" and his lore clear, including Dick ("The first and best Boy Wonder's in the hands of the most evil man on Earth! What are you going to do about it?" - Batman and Robin #16)

Yes, Joker does love Batman and Co. in his own way. Snyder digs this up in "Death of the Family"; Joker attacks the Bat-Family to toughen Batman up. I mean, he cares about Batman enough to give him tough love, almost like a parent. That brings us to this: All three stories mentioned here share one theme: Joker believes he knows what's best for Batman.

In "Gone Sane", Joker fulfills his apparently possible mission to murder Batman, if not just make him crack, and retires peacefully. "Oberon Sexton" fought Hurt with Dick and Damian; after all, he's just as much a part of the Bat-Clan as Dick. Why should he let Dr. Hurt trash the legacy? Now, Joker admonishes Batman for going soft, challenging him and his proteges to get them on their toes again.

Which brings me back to my question: Are Bruce and Joker alive when Dick takes the cowl?

If Bruce and Joker are both dead, Dick can wear the cowl without having to imitate Bruce.

If Bruce is dead or retired and Joker is still alive, there lies a problem. No one assumed the cowl in "Going Sane". Joker may have knew the Omega Effect wouldn't hold Batman for long during the Dr. Hurt saga. If Bruce dies, there's a strong possibility Joker will retire, especially if he kills him. Bruce retiring, however, is another story. Joker voiced his displeasure at Dick playing "Gotham's Batman" in Detective Comics #881. Dick's not his soul-nemesis; that's Bruce. What if Joker does not accept Dick as the one and only Batman, and tries to bait Bruce out of retirement? Joker plans on traumatizing the entire Bat-Clan to whip Batman into shape. Imagine what he'll do to get "his" Batman back.

If Bruce dies, there's still the matter of Batman and his legacy. I like to think Bruce is the righteous, flawed man who fights crime with a cape and grim disposition. He's private, guarded, and secretive. Dick's Batman is a like a mashup of Superman and Zorro - charming, charismatic, someone dressed in black the people can trust without a doubt. As it is, he and Joker personify the ultimate good and bad forces in Batman's life (see: Dick Grayson = Joker ). If Dick were to public opinion on Batman around, lighten him up, make him dashing, what are the chances of Joker reacting in disgust? Couldn't one argue that Dick taking on the cowl would mellow out the ever-serious character Joker spent his life trying to crack? Not the man, the "idea", like a diehard fan hating the way a new writer handles his favorite character. Let's say Dick and Joker represent the polar values of good and evil in Batman's world. If Batman transforms from a flawed, righteous man to the ultimate good, imagine how much energy that Joker would spend just trying to make HIM crack, both for his nature and for watering down his favorite character. That is, unless he retires. Or dies. But if not, how would Gotham fare against this version of Joker? Would the city progress or would it stay stagnant, maybe even worsen?

Awesome. I will respond when I have time to examine this carefully. I did have two long responses to your previous post but both got deleted somehow...I didn't ahve the heart to type it a third time. lol. But I never forgot to respond...school has just been x_x lately

#24 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001: I understand completely. Take your time.

#25 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Okeydoke. Figured I would reply briefly here before addressing the most recent topics.

There are little things I could say here and there but they are probably largely empty arguments. You build a strong case! :)

As for Nightwing carrying the same amount of clout? It's possible. I would point out, however, that there have been certain personalities (Robin being the most prominent) that have been around in Gotham a long time. Most criminals probably have an idea that he can do some damage. But does he have the same deterring factor that Batman does?

I have a problem with holding up Superman as an example of what a hero should be like. he's great in his own way. Strong. Dependable. Invincible (essentially). And, yes, largely trustworthy. But I think that amount of trust in a hero can also cripple a population. I feel as though Supermans exploits have led Metropolis' citizens to rely on him too much. No population should rely on a hero to always bail them out because what happens when they fail or die?

#26 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Great points. I will write a full reply when I have the time to write out a good one. Briefly addressing the last point you made in 3a, however, I don't think its dishonest. Dick would deliever a message of hope in his philanthropist role. Yes. But the way I see Batman/DG, he would not have the attitude that Bruce did. He would wear the same costume but have a whole different outlook on what he's doing. Thus, he wouldn't have the whole "I'm fighting a battle I can't win" mentality. Its just not DG. That's what I was trying to state last time (not too eloquently, I'm afraid). I mentioned all of Dick's identity struggles when he donned the cowl (note: he overcame those and decided to make the role his own...correct me if I'm wrong...really) to support the idea that he CAN wear the suit while being his own man--showing that he is not bound to being the same type of Batman that Bruce was.

In summary: Same suit, different motivation. I think that the "history" has show that he can do it/has done it.

Hmm. First, let me say that what your proposing sounded reasonable to me at one point in life. Dick did manage to vanquish his doubt after defeating James Gordon, Jr. Dick has shown time and again that his "Batman" is a crowd-pleaser and team player; an outstanding one, too. But in this scenario above, are Bruce and Joker alive?

Joker completely transformed himself the two times Batman "died":

  • In "Going Sane", Joker "murders" Batman, shocking him back to normalcy. Joker undergoes plastic surgery and leads a honest life. He even has a lady friend. When Batman turns up alive, Joker mutilates himself and starts all over again.
  • The Dr. Hurt saga saw Joker give up his usual gags for a new act, novelist Oberon Sexton. "Sexton" aided Dick and Damian in protecting the Batman legacy from the likes of the pompous Simon Hurt. During this time, Joker makes his reverence for "the Batman" and his lore clear, including Dick ("The first and best Boy Wonder's in the hands of the most evil man on Earth! What are you going to do about it?" - Batman and Robin #16)

Yes, Joker does love Batman and Co. in his own way. Snyder digs this up in "Death of the Family"; Joker attacks the Bat-Family to toughen Batman up. I mean, he cares about Batman enough to give him tough love, almost like a parent. That brings us to this: All three stories mentioned here share one theme: Joker believes he knows what's best for Batman.

In "Gone Sane", Joker fulfills his apparently possible mission to murder Batman, if not just make him crack, and retires peacefully. "Oberon Sexton" fought Hurt with Dick and Damian; after all, he's just as much a part of the Bat-Clan as Dick. Why should he let Dr. Hurt trash the legacy? Now, Joker admonishes Batman for going soft, challenging him and his proteges to get them on their toes again.

Which brings me back to my question: Are Bruce and Joker alive when Dick takes the cowl?

If Bruce and Joker are both dead, Dick can wear the cowl without having to imitate Bruce.

If Bruce is dead or retired and Joker is still alive, there lies a problem. No one assumed the cowl in "Going Sane". Joker may have knew the Omega Effect wouldn't hold Batman for long during the Dr. Hurt saga. If Bruce dies, there's a strong possibility Joker will retire, especially if he kills him. Bruce retiring, however, is another story. Joker voiced his displeasure at Dick playing "Gotham's Batman" in Detective Comics #881. Dick's not his soul-nemesis; that's Bruce. What if Joker does not accept Dick as the one and only Batman, and tries to bait Bruce out of retirement? Joker plans on traumatizing the entire Bat-Clan to whip Batman into shape. Imagine what he'll do to get "his" Batman back.

If Bruce dies, there's still the matter of Batman and his legacy. I like to think Bruce is the righteous, flawed man who fights crime with a cape and grim disposition. He's private, guarded, and secretive. Dick's Batman is a like a mashup of Superman and Zorro - charming, charismatic, someone dressed in black the people can trust without a doubt. As it is, he and Joker personify the ultimate good and bad forces in Batman's life (see: Dick Grayson = Joker ). If Dick were to public opinion on Batman around, lighten him up, make him dashing, what are the chances of Joker reacting in disgust? Couldn't one argue that Dick taking on the cowl would mellow out the ever-serious character Joker spent his life trying to crack? Not the man, the "idea", like a diehard fan hating the way a new writer handles his favorite character. Let's say Dick and Joker represent the polar values of good and evil in Batman's world. If Batman transforms from a flawed, righteous man to the ultimate good, imagine how much energy that Joker would spend just trying to make HIM crack, both for his nature and for watering down his favorite character. That is, unless he retires. Or dies. But if not, how would Gotham fare against this version of Joker? Would the city progress or would it stay stagnant, maybe even worsen?

So....here I have to say that I don't disagree with you much at all. Joker DOES love Batman in his own way (though, don't think that really extends to the rest of the fam). I think the only thing I would beg to change is that him challenging the rest of the Bat-clan doesn't speak of his love for them. I thought I heard Snyder say, once, that this Joker is actually attacking the rest of the family he feels as though Batman has grown too reliant on his allies and thus desires to destroy them to make Batman the grim, tough ideal nemesis that Joker remembers. Now this doesn't change the conclusions that you draw later. As you say, I think Joker even has a high level of respect for Dick.....but as Robin (a fact I truly hope the writers in Death of the Family remember).

That being said, you are totally right: Joker does not accept Dick as his Batman and never will. I am not sure that this will always drive him to oppose Dick. When they met in Black Mirror (in one of the best scenes of the comic, imo) he states that he was resting until Bruce returned.

I agree with you that Joker would not stand for Dick changing public opinion of Batman if he were to basically become Gotham's Superman. At that point (with Bruce dead) I think the Joker would grudgingly accept that his "soul-nemesis" (lol at that term:) is dead, pout for a while, then slap on the Mark Hamill-version's smile and say something like "welp....life gives you lemons....." and proceed to ruthlessly mess with Dick....but in order to remake Dick in the image of his "father" (setting up scenarios and such that would force him to it). This would again be a test of Dick's character as he would struggle again with who he is at his core in addition to having to defeat his mentor's greatest foe. *shivers* Now I want to see this in a comic book arc! Lol Yes, Gotham would probably get hit hard (unless Joker focuses specifically on Dick). Can Dick honestly base his decision to don the cowl on what might happen, though?

A quick point: while I understand your assessment that Dick would not have to imitate Bruce assuming if Bruce dies...honestly, I don't think Dick was ever concerned about that. I think he wanted to protect the legacy at its core: saving Gotham. The means by which he did this were different, however. I think he knows and acknowledges this (Moving out of the Cave, making Batman "his own", etc)

#27 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Okeydoke. Figured I would reply briefly here before addressing the most recent topics.

There are little things I could say here and there but they are probably largely empty arguments. You build a strong case! :)

As for Nightwing carrying the same amount of clout? It's possible. I would point out, however, that there have been certain personalities (Robin being the most prominent) that have been around in Gotham a long time. Most criminals probably have an idea that he can do some damage. But does he have the same deterring factor that Batman does?

I have a problem with holding up Superman as an example of what a hero should be like. he's great in his own way. Strong. Dependable. Invincible (essentially). And, yes, largely trustworthy. But I think that amount of trust in a hero can also cripple a population. I feel as though Supermans exploits have led Metropolis' citizens to rely on him too much. No population should rely on a hero to always bail them out because what happens when they fail or die?

1) Thanks, you too!

2) Does Robin have the same deterring factor as Batman? No, but people recognize Robin as subordinate to Batman. If Batman were to disappear, who knows what could happen? Didn't Commissioner Gordon shine a Robin signal after Tim took over the city in that Robin story post-Batman R.I.P? Anything else would be determined by time.

3) This is true. Watchmen argued this point very well. Could Dick's philanthropy offset that blowback? The right people behind Dick could keep Gotham from eating itself in times of chaos. That's the Bat-Family's job, no? Oooh, I wonder what Dick's Night-Cabinet would look like? Him as the overall hero of his city would need a team of people to cover his bases.

#28 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Great points. I will write a full reply when I have the time to write out a good one. Briefly addressing the last point you made in 3a, however, I don't think its dishonest. Dick would deliever a message of hope in his philanthropist role. Yes. But the way I see Batman/DG, he would not have the attitude that Bruce did. He would wear the same costume but have a whole different outlook on what he's doing. Thus, he wouldn't have the whole "I'm fighting a battle I can't win" mentality. Its just not DG. That's what I was trying to state last time (not too eloquently, I'm afraid). I mentioned all of Dick's identity struggles when he donned the cowl (note: he overcame those and decided to make the role his own...correct me if I'm wrong...really) to support the idea that he CAN wear the suit while being his own man--showing that he is not bound to being the same type of Batman that Bruce was.

In summary: Same suit, different motivation. I think that the "history" has show that he can do it/has done it.

Hmm. First, let me say that what your proposing sounded reasonable to me at one point in life. Dick did manage to vanquish his doubt after defeating James Gordon, Jr. Dick has shown time and again that his "Batman" is a crowd-pleaser and team player; an outstanding one, too. But in this scenario above, are Bruce and Joker alive?

Joker completely transformed himself the two times Batman "died":

  • In "Going Sane", Joker "murders" Batman, shocking him back to normalcy. Joker undergoes plastic surgery and leads a honest life. He even has a lady friend. When Batman turns up alive, Joker mutilates himself and starts all over again.
  • The Dr. Hurt saga saw Joker give up his usual gags for a new act, novelist Oberon Sexton. "Sexton" aided Dick and Damian in protecting the Batman legacy from the likes of the pompous Simon Hurt. During this time, Joker makes his reverence for "the Batman" and his lore clear, including Dick ("The first and best Boy Wonder's in the hands of the most evil man on Earth! What are you going to do about it?" - Batman and Robin #16)

Yes, Joker does love Batman and Co. in his own way. Snyder digs this up in "Death of the Family"; Joker attacks the Bat-Family to toughen Batman up. I mean, he cares about Batman enough to give him tough love, almost like a parent. That brings us to this: All three stories mentioned here share one theme: Joker believes he knows what's best for Batman.

In "Gone Sane", Joker fulfills his apparently possible mission to murder Batman, if not just make him crack, and retires peacefully. "Oberon Sexton" fought Hurt with Dick and Damian; after all, he's just as much a part of the Bat-Clan as Dick. Why should he let Dr. Hurt trash the legacy? Now, Joker admonishes Batman for going soft, challenging him and his proteges to get them on their toes again.

Which brings me back to my question: Are Bruce and Joker alive when Dick takes the cowl?

If Bruce and Joker are both dead, Dick can wear the cowl without having to imitate Bruce.

If Bruce is dead or retired and Joker is still alive, there lies a problem. No one assumed the cowl in "Going Sane". Joker may have knew the Omega Effect wouldn't hold Batman for long during the Dr. Hurt saga. If Bruce dies, there's a strong possibility Joker will retire, especially if he kills him. Bruce retiring, however, is another story. Joker voiced his displeasure at Dick playing "Gotham's Batman" in Detective Comics #881. Dick's not his soul-nemesis; that's Bruce. What if Joker does not accept Dick as the one and only Batman, and tries to bait Bruce out of retirement? Joker plans on traumatizing the entire Bat-Clan to whip Batman into shape. Imagine what he'll do to get "his" Batman back.

If Bruce dies, there's still the matter of Batman and his legacy. I like to think Bruce is the righteous, flawed man who fights crime with a cape and grim disposition. He's private, guarded, and secretive. Dick's Batman is a like a mashup of Superman and Zorro - charming, charismatic, someone dressed in black the people can trust without a doubt. As it is, he and Joker personify the ultimate good and bad forces in Batman's life (see: Dick Grayson = Joker ). If Dick were to public opinion on Batman around, lighten him up, make him dashing, what are the chances of Joker reacting in disgust? Couldn't one argue that Dick taking on the cowl would mellow out the ever-serious character Joker spent his life trying to crack? Not the man, the "idea", like a diehard fan hating the way a new writer handles his favorite character. Let's say Dick and Joker represent the polar values of good and evil in Batman's world. If Batman transforms from a flawed, righteous man to the ultimate good, imagine how much energy that Joker would spend just trying to make HIM crack, both for his nature and for watering down his favorite character. That is, unless he retires. Or dies. But if not, how would Gotham fare against this version of Joker? Would the city progress or would it stay stagnant, maybe even worsen?

So....here I have to say that I don't disagree with you much at all. Joker DOES love Batman in his own way (though, don't think that really extends to the rest of the fam). I think the only thing I would beg to change is that him challenging the rest of the Bat-clan doesn't speak of his love for them. I thought I heard Snyder say, once, that this Joker is actually attacking the rest of the family he feels as though Batman has grown too reliant on his allies and thus desires to destroy them to make Batman the grim, tough ideal nemesis that Joker remembers. Now this doesn't change the conclusions that you draw later. As you say, I think Joker even has a high level of respect for Dick.....but as Robin (a fact I truly hope the writers in Death of the Family remember).

That being said, you are totally right: Joker does not accept Dick as his Batman and never will. I am not sure that this will always drive him to oppose Dick. When they met in Black Mirror (in one of the best scenes of the comic, imo) he states that he was resting until Bruce returned.

I agree with you that Joker would not stand for Dick changing public opinion of Batman if he were to basically become Gotham's Superman. At that point (with Bruce dead) I think the Joker would grudgingly accept that his "soul-nemesis" (lol at that term:) is dead, pout for a while, then slap on the Mark Hamill-version's smile and say something like "welp....life gives you lemons....." and proceed to ruthlessly mess with Dick....but in order to remake Dick in the image of his "father" (setting up scenarios and such that would force him to it). This would again be a test of Dick's character as he would struggle again with who he is at his core in addition to having to defeat his mentor's greatest foe. *shivers* Now I want to see this in a comic book arc! Lol Yes, Gotham would probably get hit hard (unless Joker focuses specifically on Dick). Can Dick honestly base his decision to don the cowl on what might happen, though?

A quick point: while I understand your assessment that Dick would not have to imitate Bruce assuming if Bruce dies...honestly, I don't think Dick was ever concerned about that. I think he wanted to protect the legacy at its core: saving Gotham. The means by which he did this were different, however. I think he knows and acknowledges this (Moving out of the Cave, making Batman "his own", etc)

1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?

#29 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

Great points! I think that I acually disagree, however (0_0....me saying something against Dick?). Lol....not really. I agree with his your analysis of his character but I would argue that old tired point i tihink you don't want me to mention.....Gotham needs a Batman. That being said, I think that Batman should be redefined.

I have always seen Dick becoming Batman as a natural progression...almost as his birthright. He deserves the spot and Battle for the Cowl was designed, I think, to show that the Nightwing persona just doesn't carry the same weight as that of the Bat. So I think that Nightwing is NOT the next logical step for Gotham...but Dick Grayson is. I kind of view it like this: Bruce fought to stem the tide of crime in Gotham. He drew a line in the sand but he cannot truly save Gotham because of his personal problems. Dick is the one who can actually facilitate Gotham's progression...espcially if he keeps up moves like sinking all his fortune into a broken down Amusement Park. Gotham needs the Bat. Gotham needs Grayson. He is the fulfillment of the mission that Bruce started. Bruce doesn't see a life beyond the cowl...Grayson does

Does this make sense? I can try to reorganize/clarify my thoughts if ned be. Working under a deadline for shcool so can't spend too much time at the moment :)

I should be studying for a midterm, but I'll make this quick. I do believe Gotham is Dick's birthright. I don't believe, however, that Dick needs to wear the cowl to claim Gotham. "Batman" is the outlet Bruce found to vent his guilt and scourge organized crime. Batman literally carries his fears, his traumas, on his shoulders, chest and face. Dick wearing the cowl, I feel, is a step backwards. How can a person be a reformer while carrying someone else's fear and pain?

As for Gotham needing a Batman, let's look at the two times Dick wore the cowl. During "Prodigal Son", Dick took on the role in order to reconcile with Bruce and prove his mettle. Dick wore the cowl again to 1) rear a grieving Damian who arguably needed a "Batman" to look up to, and 2) maintain order in Gotham after the shock of the Crisis. After the Crisis, Gotham was worse than ever and needed its familiar Bat to get back to the status quo. But do people associate Batman with "progress" like they do "order"? Also remember that it took time for Batman to build up his reputation. If Dick moves along like he is, Nightwing (the idea) could carry the weight of reform in Gotham. I don't feel the same could happen for any Batman.

I had a more elegant response written a while ago but....I got deleted or something. Let me see if I can elaborate on my point:

I agree that Batman was Bruce's outlet originally, but it has evolved to much more than that. Batman is part of Gotham's psyche. Again, I see Dick wearing the 2cowl as a natural progession of things for him but I don't seeing him wearing it the same way. We have seen him become Batman, deal with what that means in terms of who he is, and handle the role well. If he can show that he has not become the man Bruce is/was while under the cowl...I think that shows that he overcomes the notion of just propagating bruce's pain.

Needing batman to maintain order in Gotham is exactly the point I'm making (referring to your second point). Nightwing can build up his credibility all he wants but I just don't see Nightwing ever carrying the clout that Batman does. The image itself does not strike fear into criminals. Also, consider how Batman started as an urban legend. Though he has since become more high profile....the mystery of the mask lent power to the persona nad his mission.

Finally, while Batman might not be associated with progress, I'm not sure that he needs to be. Dick Grayson needs to be the progressive one...the one who leads Gotham into a "new age" Bruce fought because he saw what Gotham was....Dick fights because he sees what Gotham can be (not sure if that's accurate but...it sounded good...lol).

1) Yes, "Batman" is a part of Gotham's psyche. But I don't see "Batman" as the end stage for Dick Grayson. His time as Batman was a test to see if he could protect Gotham in Bruce's stead. He did well, but the cowl's reputation restricted his fighting style and personality. If he feels more comfortable as Nightwing, why force the Batsuit on him? Why force Dick to wear Bruce's pain so graphically when he has his own motivations? I agree that Dick has the strong personality to fight on his own terms. So, again, why stick him with the Batsuit to keep up a status quo that's done very little for Gothamites?

2) Whether Nightwing could ever carry the same measure of clout as Batman is debatable. I did point out that Nightwing wiped out crime in Bludhaven while Batman carried on his romantic, undying, mission in Gotham. You know where I stand, obviously :)

Batman premiered as an urban legend to scare away organized crime. That's what Gotham needed, and it took time for Batman to fully deliver on that promise. If Gotham were to clean up, a la Metropolis, would it not be appropriate to have a more flamboyant hero? No one in Metropolis expects Superman to lurk in the shadows - he's just there and ready to help. People expect and trust Superman to save the day and feel safe in that belief. If Gotham reforms, its people need a hero with the nerve to show up and make a spectacle of himself. Honesty plays a role here, too. Batman put his heart on his sleeve, dressing up as a giant bat (his childhood fear) and fighting for Gotham. Subconsciously, Dick must bear his own heart for Gotham, in his own way.

3) Again, Gotham needed a Batman because the city was a mob state. After the Crisis, Gotham was arguably worse than ever, and needed a Batman to restore the status quo. But Batman is just a band aid. He does not need to be associated with progress - he already represents order. Dick has to have the confidence to inspire Gotham as himself and Nightwing. If he plans for Gotham's future during the day, but fights as Batman to keep the norm, he's making a compromise. It would be like "I know this city can be great.....but just in case, I'll still play Batman". Raising the quality of life in Gotham in a way requires even more confidence than it took Bruce to take on the mob non-lethally.

3a) On that note, Batman deserves to be remembered as he was - bleak and mysterious. The right hero for his time - a savior in Gotham's past. Charming and eloquent Dick belongs to a Gotham that can reach for its future. OK, I'm being hammy here. Still, real change cannot occur with compromise. Dick reassuming the cowl would be admitting doubt. Let's remember Batman's famous quote from Batman: War on Crime - "I know I'm fighting a war I can never completely win". How can Dick deliver one message, but as Batman deliver another message? It's both dishonest and contradictory.

Yes, Nightwing would have to work to earn the same respect as Batman. I doubt he's far from the distinction. Dick at 21 has played Batman and made a name for himself as a philanthropist. If he treads the path that he's on, I believe he can succeed.

Okeydoke. Figured I would reply briefly here before addressing the most recent topics.

There are little things I could say here and there but they are probably largely empty arguments. You build a strong case! :)

As for Nightwing carrying the same amount of clout? It's possible. I would point out, however, that there have been certain personalities (Robin being the most prominent) that have been around in Gotham a long time. Most criminals probably have an idea that he can do some damage. But does he have the same deterring factor that Batman does?

I have a problem with holding up Superman as an example of what a hero should be like. he's great in his own way. Strong. Dependable. Invincible (essentially). And, yes, largely trustworthy. But I think that amount of trust in a hero can also cripple a population. I feel as though Supermans exploits have led Metropolis' citizens to rely on him too much. No population should rely on a hero to always bail them out because what happens when they fail or die?

1) Thanks, you too!

2) Does Robin have the same deterring factor as Batman? No, but people recognize Robin as subordinate to Batman. If Batman were to disappear, who knows what could happen? Didn't Commissioner Gordon shine a Robin signal after Tim took over the city in that Robin story post-Batman R.I.P? Anything else would be determined by time.

3) This is true. Watchmen argued this point very well. Could Dick's philanthropy offset that blowback? The right people behind Dick could keep Gotham from eating itself in times of chaos. That's the Bat-Family's job, no? Oooh, I wonder what Dick's Night-Cabinet would look like? Him as the overall hero of his city would need a team of people to cover his bases.

1) lol...not at all.

2) Yeah, I suppose we would just have to wait for time to tell the story. I mean, I think Tim has his own darkness so I could see him maintaining the streets without donning the Batman cowl (then again, the old red robin one provides the same anonymity benefits that the Batsuit does. But I also think that Tim couldn't lead the city to its brighter future. I like the guy. He's probably my second favorite bat-son...maybe bat-kid in general, but he is too much like Bruce He could maintain, but not lead the way to a brighter day.

3)I don't thnik I'm understanding: could Dick's philantropy (as himself or as Nightwing/Batman) offset what blowback? Are you askin gif Dick Grayson's philanthropy can keep the public from trusting too much in his alter ego? If so, I think that's sort of been my thought the whole time. Dick has to drive the change as himself. The alter-ego serves to give the citizens the chance to take the reigns "Take control of their city" *Bane voice* but nothing more than that. That's why I say keep him as the Bat. Let him carry on the legacy. The city doesn't need a costumed hero to lead it to a brighter day. They need a legit citizen to do that (and Batman serves in the shadows, paving the way for that to happen). In essence, he's trying to work himself out of a job :)If the city relys on him, he can't easily retire as the Batman.

That would be awesome! Let's see, do you mean DIck's cabinet of costumed fighters? Well I'd go with Dick, Tim (always his lieutenant), Damian (lol....the mini-lieutenant), Huntress (because they have an interesting chemistry, from what i've seen), Cass and....Babs????

#30 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

"1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?"

1) Sorry, my point was to say that Joker would respect Dick as the best of the Robin's probably, just based on the fact that he's the original...the one Joker "grew up" with....the one Joker compares all the other ones to. I idn't mean to imply him only respecting DG as Robin.I was only thinking of the DG Batman and Robin personas and saying Joker would be more accpeting of the latter because of his previously discussed obsession with bruce. Forgot about the 3rd persona. I think he would respect DG nightwing as well.

2) Well, see, that's what I think would make it a compelling story. That would be Joker's goal: if he can't have the Bat he loves, he tries to force Dick into that mold through a series of events designed to break him, isolate him, re-make Dick in Bruce's image. In this way, on top of Dick trying to stop the Joker's rampage and attacks on the city, etc, he would also have to again deal with the deeper issues inside of him: who am I? What type of Batman will I be? And in the end of it all, he overcomes, of course, by defeating Joker and showing him that he is NOT Bruce and that he never will be Bruce. He is Bruce's heir and will honor the legacy...but in his own way. Shows classic Grayson optimism and strength of character while defining who he is

4) Oh that Alfred scene happened in Batman and Robin? I thought it happened in Battle for the Cowl...lol. I see your point and I agree. I guess the main thing is that he overcame it. And thats what I like to see because its very realistic. As much as Dick and Bruce have had their disagreements, they deeply respect each other. To think that Dick would immeadiately blow off the details of Bruce's legacy wouldn't be realistic. But him working through the process is a great plot device.

Out of curiosity, how did that Starfire encounter end? Was that before or after he told her that he didn't love her anymore (when he told Donna the whole situation, I think)

Let's see, the aforementioned Night-Cabinet was for rule of Gotham. And, as an editorial edit, I want to say that having Jason on that cabinet would be VERY interesting. I don't exactly like the tension between Dick and Jason when Tim/Jason seem to be fine. For any cabinet outside of Gotham (say, he took Bruces spot in the League or formed a new one): Wally, Donna, Powergirl, Tim....not sure about the rest.

#31 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

And by that I mean in an ideal world. This is a response to "another tired batman pop psychology thread....here, enjoy". Ideally, Gotham would inherit a hero who would defend Gotham because it's the right thing to do rather than a person who can't let go of his tragic motivation. It's funny how Batman hasn't really done more for the city than cancel out super-crime. But it's more than that; today, it occurred to me that Snyder stopped following Bruce's philanthropic endeavor from the first few issues of "Batman". Then it occurred to me that I can't remember a single charitable effort Bruce has done for the city that made a lasting impact. No matter what he does, writers always go back to the cowl and Crime Alley. And that's fine for a story, but the morale of Gotham has arguably been the same since "Year One". Meanwhile, Nightwing gave up his life of luxury to work as a bartender, and later a cop to get to know Bludhaven and its people. He could have bought an expensive loft for himself, but he chose to live among normal people in a shoddy apartment. Instead of engaging in a romantic, never-ending struggle in his city, Nightwing eradicated organized crime in Bludhaven, learned the value of life when he let Blockbuster die, and forgave himself to move on.

When Batman died, he was the only one to not fight for the cowl, taught Damian the values of life and compassion, something Batman never seemed to pass to Jason, and gladly gave up the cowl at some point in the ether of the New52. His selflessness isn't something his peers share, at least not fully. Jason and Tim fought for the cowl and deed to Gotham all throughout the Morrison era. Jason insisted that his brand of lethal justice was the better solution to crime in Gotham. Tim made his claim to the city quiet clear on the final page of "Red Robin"; the entire run was partially dedicated to him growing confident in his planning ability. Dick just served for the good of the people. He even gave up a married life with Barbara to train with Bruce and Tim while wounded.

And now he's developing Amusement Mile with Sonia Zucco Branch. I pray writers don't neglect this moment in Dick's life, as it sums up the character nicely. Dick wants to look forward and do good works for Gotham. Ideally, he would be the one to lead Gotham to a better morale.

Thoughts?

I can't disagree in the slightest

#32 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

"1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?"

1) Sorry, my point was to say that Joker would respect Dick as the best of the Robin's probably, just based on the fact that he's the original...the one Joker "grew up" with....the one Joker compares all the other ones to. I idn't mean to imply him only respecting DG as Robin.I was only thinking of the DG Batman and Robin personas and saying Joker would be more accpeting of the latter because of his previously discussed obsession with bruce. Forgot about the 3rd persona. I think he would respect DG nightwing as well.

2) Well, see, that's what I think would make it a compelling story. That would be Joker's goal: if he can't have the Bat he loves, he tries to force Dick into that mold through a series of events designed to break him, isolate him, re-make Dick in Bruce's image. In this way, on top of Dick trying to stop the Joker's rampage and attacks on the city, etc, he would also have to again deal with the deeper issues inside of him: who am I? What type of Batman will I be? And in the end of it all, he overcomes, of course, by defeating Joker and showing him that he is NOT Bruce and that he never will be Bruce. He is Bruce's heir and will honor the legacy...but in his own way. Shows classic Grayson optimism and strength of character while defining who he is

4) Oh that Alfred scene happened in Batman and Robin? I thought it happened in Battle for the Cowl...lol. I see your point and I agree. I guess the main thing is that he overcame it. And thats what I like to see because its very realistic. As much as Dick and Bruce have had their disagreements, they deeply respect each other. To think that Dick would immeadiately blow off the details of Bruce's legacy wouldn't be realistic. But him working through the process is a great plot device.

Out of curiosity, how did that Starfire encounter end? Was that before or after he told her that he didn't love her anymore (when he told Donna the whole situation, I think)

Let's see, the aforementioned Night-Cabinet was for rule of Gotham. And, as an editorial edit, I want to say that having Jason on that cabinet would be VERY interesting. I don't exactly like the tension between Dick and Jason when Tim/Jason seem to be fine. For any cabinet outside of Gotham (say, he took Bruces spot in the League or formed a new one): Wally, Donna, Powergirl, Tim....not sure about the rest.:)

:)...Hmm. Please give me some time to write a response.

#33 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: Of course, man. I took forever to get back to yuo before. I think I wrote two responses (including answers to your Night-Cabinet q). Eagerly awaiting your response :)

#34 Edited by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

#35 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Lol. "Are you not entertained!?"

#36 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001:

Feels like I'm watching a cosmic game of backgammon lol. Has to be the most epic debate I've read on here..

"vernierhawk answers back with a vicious uppercut!" xD

#37 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@vernierhawk001:

Feels like I'm watching a cosmic game of backgammon lol. Has to be the most epic debate I've read on here..

"vernierhawk answers back with a vicious uppercut!" xD

Until comes back and stomps on my face. lol

#38 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

"1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?"

1) Sorry, my point was to say that Joker would respect Dick as the best of the Robin's probably, just based on the fact that he's the original...the one Joker "grew up" with....the one Joker compares all the other ones to. I idn't mean to imply him only respecting DG as Robin.I was only thinking of the DG Batman and Robin personas and saying Joker would be more accpeting of the latter because of his previously discussed obsession with bruce. Forgot about the 3rd persona. I think he would respect DG nightwing as well.

2) Well, see, that's what I think would make it a compelling story. That would be Joker's goal: if he can't have the Bat he loves, he tries to force Dick into that mold through a series of events designed to break him, isolate him, re-make Dick in Bruce's image. In this way, on top of Dick trying to stop the Joker's rampage and attacks on the city, etc, he would also have to again deal with the deeper issues inside of him: who am I? What type of Batman will I be? And in the end of it all, he overcomes, of course, by defeating Joker and showing him that he is NOT Bruce and that he never will be Bruce. He is Bruce's heir and will honor the legacy...but in his own way. Shows classic Grayson optimism and strength of character while defining who he is

4) Oh that Alfred scene happened in Batman and Robin? I thought it happened in Battle for the Cowl...lol. I see your point and I agree. I guess the main thing is that he overcame it. And thats what I like to see because its very realistic. As much as Dick and Bruce have had their disagreements, they deeply respect each other. To think that Dick would immeadiately blow off the details of Bruce's legacy wouldn't be realistic. But him working through the process is a great plot device.

Out of curiosity, how did that Starfire encounter end? Was that before or after he told her that he didn't love her anymore (when he told Donna the whole situation, I think)

Let's see, the aforementioned Night-Cabinet was for rule of Gotham. And, as an editorial edit, I want to say that having Jason on that cabinet would be VERY interesting. I don't exactly like the tension between Dick and Jason when Tim/Jason seem to be fine. For any cabinet outside of Gotham (say, he took Bruces spot in the League or formed a new one): Wally, Donna, Powergirl, Tim....not sure about the rest.

2) Hmm. Here's the thing: The fights between Batman and Joker always end up at the status quo. Batman stays flawed, but righteous; Joker stays evil. These have been the circumstances since The Man Who Laughs. If the Joker tried to "convert" Dick, he would try to return to this status quo. Let's say Dick defeats Joker. Who's to say Joker won't come harder? What's to stop Joker from poisoning every Bat-child except Dick just to isolate him, a la Bruce in Year One and The Long Halloween? Was Joker ever this severe before? No, at least not towards the Bat-Family. But Joker would have to work that much harder to groom Dick. Joker's relentless, too; if he appears twice a year to keep Bruce on his toes, he'd show up twice as often, maybe every day to corrupt Dick. You're right - Dick has the optimism and strength to make Batman his own. These virtues also mean he could leave the cowl alone. We've already agreed Joker would pull all the breaks to turn Dick into Bruce. Dick making a stand as Nightwing, refusing to play the old game, is the ultimate rebellion. Retiring "Batman" would remove the only real link Joker has to Gotham. The message - "Gotham will see better days. Batman is dead. You have no place here." Joker retires; Dick takes a look at the remaining threats in his city.

3) Here's where the Night-Cabinet comes into play. Nightwing would fight crime in public, dashing and charismatic; a fresh symbol for a new Gotham. Jason, Tim, and Damian would do covert work in Major Crimes. Their job would entail keeping organized crime out of Gotham. Babs would play administrator, the eyes and ears of the Night-Cabinet. Babs would inform Dick of fiscal irregularities, illegal transactions, various cyber crimes, etc. She would also maintain the dossiers of every public official in the city. This way, Richie Grayson the philanthropist could make the right political connections when collaborating with the city. GCPD, with the mob gone, could focus on other crimes. Gotham, with the mob gone and restoration underway, would attract smart, eager lawyers and politicians to run for public office, with Babs watching their moves to weed out bad candidates.

The Night-Cabinet would be the silent power in Gotham. Gothamites would come to think of super-crime as something out of Kamen Rider or Ultraman - fantastic, but not dire. Major Crimes would keep the mob out. Barbara would monitor the city digitally.

Thoughts? We've been at this for a while now. If I sound like I'm rambling, forgive me :). You're a tough debater.

#39 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

"1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?"

1) Sorry, my point was to say that Joker would respect Dick as the best of the Robin's probably, just based on the fact that he's the original...the one Joker "grew up" with....the one Joker compares all the other ones to. I idn't mean to imply him only respecting DG as Robin.I was only thinking of the DG Batman and Robin personas and saying Joker would be more accpeting of the latter because of his previously discussed obsession with bruce. Forgot about the 3rd persona. I think he would respect DG nightwing as well.

2) Well, see, that's what I think would make it a compelling story. That would be Joker's goal: if he can't have the Bat he loves, he tries to force Dick into that mold through a series of events designed to break him, isolate him, re-make Dick in Bruce's image. In this way, on top of Dick trying to stop the Joker's rampage and attacks on the city, etc, he would also have to again deal with the deeper issues inside of him: who am I? What type of Batman will I be? And in the end of it all, he overcomes, of course, by defeating Joker and showing him that he is NOT Bruce and that he never will be Bruce. He is Bruce's heir and will honor the legacy...but in his own way. Shows classic Grayson optimism and strength of character while defining who he is

4) Oh that Alfred scene happened in Batman and Robin? I thought it happened in Battle for the Cowl...lol. I see your point and I agree. I guess the main thing is that he overcame it. And thats what I like to see because its very realistic. As much as Dick and Bruce have had their disagreements, they deeply respect each other. To think that Dick would immeadiately blow off the details of Bruce's legacy wouldn't be realistic. But him working through the process is a great plot device.

Out of curiosity, how did that Starfire encounter end? Was that before or after he told her that he didn't love her anymore (when he told Donna the whole situation, I think)

Let's see, the aforementioned Night-Cabinet was for rule of Gotham. And, as an editorial edit, I want to say that having Jason on that cabinet would be VERY interesting. I don't exactly like the tension between Dick and Jason when Tim/Jason seem to be fine. For any cabinet outside of Gotham (say, he took Bruces spot in the League or formed a new one): Wally, Donna, Powergirl, Tim....not sure about the rest.

2) Hmm. Here's the thing: The fights between Batman and Joker always end up at the status quo. Batman stays flawed, but righteous; Joker stays evil. These have been the circumstances since The Man Who Laughs. If the Joker tried to "convert" Dick, he would try to return to this status quo. Let's say Dick defeats Joker. Who's to say Joker won't come harder? What's to stop Joker from poisoning every Bat-child except Dick just to isolate him, a la Bruce in Year One and The Long Halloween? Was Joker ever this severe before? No, at least not towards the Bat-Family. But Joker would have to work that much harder to groom Dick. Joker's relentless, too; if he appears twice a year to keep Bruce on his toes, he'd show up twice as often, maybe every day to corrupt Dick. You're right - Dick has the optimism and strength to make Batman his own. These virtues also mean he could leave the cowl alone. We've already agreed Joker would pull all the breaks to turn Dick into Bruce. Dick making a stand as Nightwing, refusing to play the old game, is the ultimate rebellion. Retiring "Batman" would remove the only real link Joker has to Gotham. The message - "Gotham will see better days. Batman is dead. You have no place here." Joker retires; Dick takes a look at the remaining threats in his city.

3) Here's where the Night-Cabinet comes into play. Nightwing would fight crime in public, dashing and charismatic; a fresh symbol for a new Gotham. Jason, Tim, and Damian would do covert work in Major Crimes. Their job would entail keeping organized crime out of Gotham. Babs would play administrator, the eyes and ears of the Night-Cabinet. Babs would inform Dick of fiscal irregularities, illegal transactions, various cyber crimes, etc. She would also maintain the dossiers of every public official in the city. This way, Richie Grayson the philanthropist could make the right political connections when collaborating with the city. GCPD, with the mob gone, could focus on other crimes. Gotham, with the mob gone and restoration underway, would attract smart, eager lawyers and politicians to run for public office, with Babs watching their moves to weed out bad candidates.

The Night-Cabinet would be the silent power in Gotham. Gothamites would come to think of super-crime as something out of Kamen Rider or Ultraman - fantastic, but not dire. Major Crimes would keep the mob out. Barbara would monitor the city digitally.

Thoughts? We've been at this for a while now. If I sound like I'm rambling, forgive me :). You're a tough debater.

2) It's funny because, once again, we see the same starting point but our views lead us to different conclusions. I agree that Joker will work hard to "corrput" Dick and make him like Bruce. I agree that, after "hmm-ing and haw-ing" about his real Bat being gone, Joker will go NUTS to remake Dick in Bruce's image: attacking the Bat-clan and the city along the way....maybe even everyday, as you said. But we still disagree on the end. I see the end of of an epic saga/story/arc like that ending with Dick's saying to Joker (preferably with a close-up at night in the pouring rain [above Crime Alley?! 0_0]....Joker held by the collar, grinning as usual) "You have tried your best but you are wrong: Like it or not I am Batman and Gotham is my inheritance. And I won't change. I will always see the good in her. Bruce (let's assume Joker knows who Batman was but just truly didn't care) was a great mentor but I am not him and never will be. Make no mistake, though..I will always be there to stop you (dialogue that epic would, of course, be in the hands of someone more eloquent than myself)." I see that as the ultimate "screw you" and rebellion. Being Nightwing could almost be taken as acquiesence.

This declaration isn't without consequence and leads to something I don't think we've really seen before: an angry Joker. Gone is the sadistic but playful Prince of Crime who arguably never really wants to kill Batman but merely to "dance." Like a spurned lover, this Joker truly goes mad/becomes enraged and pulls out ALL of the stops in his next attack on Dick. No molding. No playfulness. His aim is totally destroying Dick. So Joker escapes from Arkham where Dick put him after that declaration scene I described above, Joker escapes (because apparently Arkham holds criminals as well as a chaink link fence holds water) and disappears planning his next attack. Dick (either knowing that Joker is going to go absolutely crazy in attacking him) does something I don't remember seeing much in Batman stories and goes on the offensive, forming a small team with the Huntress, himself (and maybe Jason?) and actively hunt Joker around the world. During the absense he has Tim take over the role of Batman. Dick excluding Babs from the hunt leads to conflict with her (good for the relationship...lol) and he asks her to stay in the city. Maybe she does but more likely this new version of Babs decides to hunt on her own (or maybe she forms a team with Jason assuming Dick only took Huntress). So it basically becomes a race against time with the two teams competing to get to Joker first (Dick trying to both save Gotham/his family and protect Babs and Barbara just trying to get to Joker first). Ends in some epic way that I have yet to think of with Dick doing the closest thing he can to killing Joker witout actually doing it: he puts him in cryo-sleep under Blackgate with the rest of the Talons. In the aftermath, he gets a visit from Superman and Wonder Woman (maybe just Supes) who criticizes him for hunting the Joker saying "heros don't do that--we are protectors, not bounty hunters" or something along those lines. Dick has one of those coming of age moments where he looks Supes in the eye and says "Bruce respected you and so do I *turns and walk away* but Gotham is my responsibilty and I will do what I need to to keep her safe.

Phew...sorry for gushing but that idea has been stuck in my head for a while and I wanted to get it out...lol

3) Could be! You know how I feel about superheros being dashing and in public on a regular basis...lol. I still would want Dick Grayson the citizen to facilitate the change in Gotham in the way that Bruce never truly could because he saw himself as preserving Gotham, not leading it into a brighter tomorrow. (Dick sees an end to the mission, Bruce never could.) I can definitely see Babs as being the communications liasion of the group...kinda like she was in Black Mirror. I think Dick would rely on her a lot as the new head of the Family. The old (pre-New 52) Tim is only too thrilled to work with Dick and Damian is pleased (but doesn't let on and remains grouchy because that would be too un-damian). Jason maybe becomes a little jealous and gets isolated more from the Fam...maybe not. (SN: I'd like to see an arc where Jason and Dick have to work together on something....be hilarious if it was with the Outlaws). Anyway, back to your idea....

....cool vision for the Night-Cabinet. Leads Gotham to become the new Metropolis, huh? :)

Haha...thanks. This has been fun. You are definitely a better debater than I am. I look forward to reading your responses when I log on

#40 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

batman is afraid to kill gotham needs someone like red hood whos not a pansy and would kill whenever.

#41 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

"1) I agree. I can see how having his family around would make Batman look fat and sloppy to Joker (keyword: comfortable). One question: Why would Joker respect Dick as "Robin" more than "Nightwing"?

3) That IS an interesting scenario. I don't know if the Joker would drive Dick into the cowl. I do feel that Dick should be his own person.

4) Hmm. I have to disagree on this one. Starfire criticized Dick for fighting with a more rigid style as Batman ("Batman doesn't dance" was his response). Dick didn't immediately know how to handle Damian "in character" either. Alfred was the one to remind Dick to be himself, to think of "Batman" as a role (see: Batman and Robin #2). Dick did take steps to make "Batman" his own, but the weight of the mantle did affect him for a bit.

Seriously though, what would this Night-Cabinet look like?"

1) Sorry, my point was to say that Joker would respect Dick as the best of the Robin's probably, just based on the fact that he's the original...the one Joker "grew up" with....the one Joker compares all the other ones to. I idn't mean to imply him only respecting DG as Robin.I was only thinking of the DG Batman and Robin personas and saying Joker would be more accpeting of the latter because of his previously discussed obsession with bruce. Forgot about the 3rd persona. I think he would respect DG nightwing as well.

2) Well, see, that's what I think would make it a compelling story. That would be Joker's goal: if he can't have the Bat he loves, he tries to force Dick into that mold through a series of events designed to break him, isolate him, re-make Dick in Bruce's image. In this way, on top of Dick trying to stop the Joker's rampage and attacks on the city, etc, he would also have to again deal with the deeper issues inside of him: who am I? What type of Batman will I be? And in the end of it all, he overcomes, of course, by defeating Joker and showing him that he is NOT Bruce and that he never will be Bruce. He is Bruce's heir and will honor the legacy...but in his own way. Shows classic Grayson optimism and strength of character while defining who he is

4) Oh that Alfred scene happened in Batman and Robin? I thought it happened in Battle for the Cowl...lol. I see your point and I agree. I guess the main thing is that he overcame it. And thats what I like to see because its very realistic. As much as Dick and Bruce have had their disagreements, they deeply respect each other. To think that Dick would immeadiately blow off the details of Bruce's legacy wouldn't be realistic. But him working through the process is a great plot device.

Out of curiosity, how did that Starfire encounter end? Was that before or after he told her that he didn't love her anymore (when he told Donna the whole situation, I think)

Let's see, the aforementioned Night-Cabinet was for rule of Gotham. And, as an editorial edit, I want to say that having Jason on that cabinet would be VERY interesting. I don't exactly like the tension between Dick and Jason when Tim/Jason seem to be fine. For any cabinet outside of Gotham (say, he took Bruces spot in the League or formed a new one): Wally, Donna, Powergirl, Tim....not sure about the rest.

2) Hmm. Here's the thing: The fights between Batman and Joker always end up at the status quo. Batman stays flawed, but righteous; Joker stays evil. These have been the circumstances since The Man Who Laughs. If the Joker tried to "convert" Dick, he would try to return to this status quo. Let's say Dick defeats Joker. Who's to say Joker won't come harder? What's to stop Joker from poisoning every Bat-child except Dick just to isolate him, a la Bruce in Year One and The Long Halloween? Was Joker ever this severe before? No, at least not towards the Bat-Family. But Joker would have to work that much harder to groom Dick. Joker's relentless, too; if he appears twice a year to keep Bruce on his toes, he'd show up twice as often, maybe every day to corrupt Dick. You're right - Dick has the optimism and strength to make Batman his own. These virtues also mean he could leave the cowl alone. We've already agreed Joker would pull all the breaks to turn Dick into Bruce. Dick making a stand as Nightwing, refusing to play the old game, is the ultimate rebellion. Retiring "Batman" would remove the only real link Joker has to Gotham. The message - "Gotham will see better days. Batman is dead. You have no place here." Joker retires; Dick takes a look at the remaining threats in his city.

3) Here's where the Night-Cabinet comes into play. Nightwing would fight crime in public, dashing and charismatic; a fresh symbol for a new Gotham. Jason, Tim, and Damian would do covert work in Major Crimes. Their job would entail keeping organized crime out of Gotham. Babs would play administrator, the eyes and ears of the Night-Cabinet. Babs would inform Dick of fiscal irregularities, illegal transactions, various cyber crimes, etc. She would also maintain the dossiers of every public official in the city. This way, Richie Grayson the philanthropist could make the right political connections when collaborating with the city. GCPD, with the mob gone, could focus on other crimes. Gotham, with the mob gone and restoration underway, would attract smart, eager lawyers and politicians to run for public office, with Babs watching their moves to weed out bad candidates.

The Night-Cabinet would be the silent power in Gotham. Gothamites would come to think of super-crime as something out of Kamen Rider or Ultraman - fantastic, but not dire. Major Crimes would keep the mob out. Barbara would monitor the city digitally.

Thoughts? We've been at this for a while now. If I sound like I'm rambling, forgive me :). You're a tough debater.

2) It's funny because, once again, we see the same starting point but our views lead us to different conclusions. I agree that Joker will work hard to "corrput" Dick and make him like Bruce. I agree that, after "hmm-ing and haw-ing" about his real Bat being gone, Joker will go NUTS to remake Dick in Bruce's image: attacking the Bat-clan and the city along the way....maybe even everyday, as you said. But we still disagree on the end. I see the end of of an epic saga/story/arc like that ending with Dick's saying to Joker (preferably with a close-up at night in the pouring rain [above Crime Alley?! 0_0]....Joker held by the collar, grinning as usual) "You have tried your best but you are wrong: Like it or not I am Batman and Gotham is my inheritance. And I won't change. I will always see the good in her. Bruce (let's assume Joker knows who Batman was but just truly didn't care) was a great mentor but I am not him and never will be. Make no mistake, though..I will always be there to stop you (dialogue that epic would, of course, be in the hands of someone more eloquent than myself)." I see that as the ultimate "screw you" and rebellion. Being Nightwing could almost be taken as acquiesence.

This declaration isn't without consequence and leads to something I don't think we've really seen before: an angry Joker. Gone is the sadistic but playful Prince of Crime who arguably never really wants to kill Batman but merely to "dance." Like a spurned lover, this Joker truly goes mad/becomes enraged and pulls out ALL of the stops in his next attack on Dick. No molding. No playfulness. His aim is totally destroying Dick. So Joker escapes from Arkham where Dick put him after that declaration scene I described above, Joker escapes (because apparently Arkham holds criminals as well as a chaink link fence holds water) and disappears planning his next attack. Dick (either knowing that Joker is going to go absolutely crazy in attacking him) does something I don't remember seeing much in Batman stories and goes on the offensive, forming a small team with the Huntress, himself (and maybe Jason?) and actively hunt Joker around the world. During the absense he has Tim take over the role of Batman. Dick excluding Babs from the hunt leads to conflict with her (good for the relationship...lol) and he asks her to stay in the city. Maybe she does but more likely this new version of Babs decides to hunt on her own (or maybe she forms a team with Jason assuming Dick only took Huntress). So it basically becomes a race against time with the two teams competing to get to Joker first (Dick trying to both save Gotham/his family and protect Babs and Barbara just trying to get to Joker first). Ends in some epic way that I have yet to think of with Dick doing the closest thing he can to killing Joker witout actually doing it: he puts him in cryo-sleep under Blackgate with the rest of the Talons. In the aftermath, he gets a visit from Superman and Wonder Woman (maybe just Supes) who criticizes him for hunting the Joker saying "heros don't do that--we are protectors, not bounty hunters" or something along those lines. Dick has one of those coming of age moments where he looks Supes in the eye and says "Bruce respected you and so do I *turns and walk away* but Gotham is my responsibilty and I will do what I need to to keep her safe.

Phew...sorry for gushing but that idea has been stuck in my head for a while and I wanted to get it out...lol

3) Could be! You know how I feel about superheros being dashing and in public on a regular basis...lol. I still would want Dick Grayson the citizen to facilitate the change in Gotham in the way that Bruce never truly could because he saw himself as preserving Gotham, not leading it into a brighter tomorrow. (Dick sees an end to the mission, Bruce never could.) I can definitely see Babs as being the communications liasion of the group...kinda like she was in Black Mirror. I think Dick would rely on her a lot as the new head of the Family. The old (pre-New 52) Tim is only too thrilled to work with Dick and Damian is pleased (but doesn't let on and remains grouchy because that would be too un-damian). Jason maybe becomes a little jealous and gets isolated more from the Fam...maybe not. (SN: I'd like to see an arc where Jason and Dick have to work together on something....be hilarious if it was with the Outlaws). Anyway, back to your idea....

....cool vision for the Night-Cabinet. Leads Gotham to become the new Metropolis, huh? :)

Haha...thanks. This has been fun. You are definitely a better debater than I am. I look forward to reading your responses when I log on

1) So in your scenario, Dick immediately assumes the cowl?

2) Dick the philanthropist and Nightwing have a responsibility to Gotham. All Gothamites, including Joker. Joker attributes his purpose to "Batman"; if that's what makes him what he is, why shouldn't Dick fight as Nightwing? When Joker thought Batman dead, he sought a normal life and was happy. When Batman was revealed alive, Joker "relapsed" excitedly.

Joker is plenty of things, including human. Batman respected Joker's humanity. That's why he never killed him. Dick playing "reformer" in Gotham means keeping the people's best interest. If this means putting Joker through rehab, so be it. Dick retiring the cowl as acquiescence would imply he fought for it. When has he ever done that? Dick always done what was best for the people.

3) Your scenario compromises Dick's optimism, doesn't it? Solving the Joker problem is one thing; putting Joker in cryo-sleep is nonlethal, but temporary given the character. How many times has Joker escaped the impossible? What's worrying is superhero community (Superman, etc.) losing their trust in Dick. Readers have seen how Dick reacts to bending his morals:

  • Nightwing #93: Nightwing allows Blockbuster to die at Tarantula's barrel. Nightwing reasoned that Blockbuster would never stop his crime, but the experience left him near-catatonic.
  • Outsiders #37: Nightwing threatens Superman for getting in the way of team with kryptonite. The resulting discomfort leads Nightwing to quit the team.

Is it necessary for Dick to compromise himself?

4) I was thinking about what would happen after the Night-Cabinet took power. The mob would have to go somewhere, right? The image of mobsters flooding past the Gotham city limits took a hold of my brain. Where do people go to when everything is taken from them? Alcohol, drugs, or religion. Imagine someone waiting from them on the road, a person in robes, holding a "Book of Crime".....

What if the Church of Crime (who worships Darkseid) converted the displaced mobsters and trained them to raze Gotham? Nolan's Ra's al-Ghul and Bruce Wayne were similar men who disagreed on how to save the world. Ra's al-Ghul tried to raze Gotham while Bruce spared nothing to reform its people. Dick's Night-Cabinet and a Church of Crime would have a similar dynamic. The difference here is that the Church of Crime fights in the name of Crime; their dynamic would be more akin to flashy anime.

The man in the robes is they're Pope.

My initial choice for Crime Pope was Joker. If he couldn't play with Batman, why not crush the city? Then I thought about Joseph Kerr living a normal life, reading a newspaper with Nightwing on the front page.

So my next choice is James Gordon, Jr.

Why? Nightwing fights because it's the right thing to do. Makes sense to have a counterpart who's apparently wired to do the opposite.

Thoughts?

#42 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

batman is afraid to kill gotham needs someone like red hood whos not a pansy and would kill whenever.

Why would a city trust a murderer to protect them? Isn't that the point of Watchmen?

#43 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: the same reason people trust cops who murder to protect.

#44 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

@VampireSelektor: the same reason people trust cops who murder to protect.

People trust police to murder in self-defense, not kill in cold blood. Batman is more skilled and cunning than any policeman. What excuse would he have to kill someone?

#45 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1558 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of curiosity, where is this conversation currently? lol cause for a while its been like Vampire vs Vernier in here.

#46 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Out of curiosity, where is this conversation currently? lol cause for a while its been like Vampire vs Vernier in here.

Nothing's changed :p

#47 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@jobbernos said:

@VampireSelektor: the same reason people trust cops who murder to protect.

People trust police to murder in self-defense, not kill in cold blood. Batman is more skilled and cunning than any policeman. What excuse would he have to kill someone?

actually there are plenty of cops who kill in cold blood mainly due to racial profiling and crooked cops and cops who use unnecessary force cause they think they are above the law thats why a lot of people dont trust the police.

#48 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@jobbernos said:

@VampireSelektor: the same reason people trust cops who murder to protect.

People trust police to murder in self-defense, not kill in cold blood. Batman is more skilled and cunning than any policeman. What excuse would he have to kill someone?

actually there are plenty of cops who kill in cold blood mainly due to racial profiling and crooked cops and cops who use unnecessary force cause they think they are above the law thats why a lot of people dont trust the police.

True, my mistake. "Police are within their rights to murder in self-defense". The police, at the very least, trust Batman to not commit murder in cold blood. Murder complicates a moral code. When would Batman be justified in murdering someone in cold blood?

#49 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: if that someone is a mass murderer and a serial killer with no remorse, than batman can be justified for killing people like that.

#50 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos: No, a judge and jury decide who's imprisoned and who's executed. That's called order.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.