Nightwing 15 Discussion

#1 Posted by Nightwingdg (83 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it safe to say that Joker knows that Dick Grayson is Nightwing?

Raya hopped up on Joker gas with swords duck taped to her hands might be the most disturbing thing I've seen in awhile.

Eddy Barrow's work on this title has been nothing but spectacular and I will miss him dearly. I'm looking forward to issue 16, and I'm kind of afraid for what's in store for Nightwing and the circus.

Spoiler:

I really liked Raya, and I find that using her corpse as an invitation for Joker to get Nightwing to Haly's Circus was kind of a disappointment. I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of her. Maybe Saiko or William Cobb will take her body to the Court of Owls.

Theory:

I have a feeling that this whole Joker storyline is going to end up with an all out fight between Nightwing and Batman. I can't blame Dick for whooping Bruce's ass for keeping secrets that he has no right to keep from his family. Why? Because he's so cavalier that he thinks Joker couldn't out smart him and figure out how to sneak into the cave? Superman's weakness = Kryptonite Batman's weakness = Being an arrogant ass.

Death of the Family = Death of the Dynamic Duo! Joker's greatest joke of all will be tearing apart the greatest team in the history of comics. Why? Maybe deep down Joker is jealous of Dick Grayson. To Joker, He and Batman are the only dynamic duo.

#2 Posted by SUNMAN (7262 posts) - - Show Bio

meh. All this title really has goign for it is the art which I really like. This just falls in line with all the other Deaht in the Family issues. Joker knows who the heroes are and just owns them killing or maiming their loved ones.

For this particular title I don't feel its as impactful since the reader doesn't care about Reya or that circus clown guy. Characters have only appeared in a handful of issues over roughly a year and your offing them already?

When Snyder had Joker take Alfred its a big deal cause its Alfred. In these other tie ins the reader doesn't have as much invested interest.

All in all good art, story pretty much falls in line with all the other tie ins and is average at best. I'm not sure if the fact that its a tie in helps or hurts the overall story.

#3 Posted by Nightwing4 (372 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's safe to say he knows who all of them are, and has probably orchestrated events in their "normal lives" just as he did with Jason Todd. I wouldn't be surprised if Joker turned Dick against Bruce, and I also wouldn't be surprised if Bruce has even more secrets about Joker that he hasn't revealed yet. Great Issue, the two deaths and kiss with sonia are setting Dick up for a lot of heartbreak. Lets hope he can take it.

#4 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't think the issue was anything spectacular, at this point everything is still just leading up to one big event and they are only teasing at what could happen. As with a lot of the DOTF issues that haven't been penned by Snyder you get the feeling that DC has kept a tight grip on the writers to avoid too much being given away, or for that matter its not unlikely that (as with Court of Owls) they're actively stopping the other characters from outshining Batman.

#5 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

As the story progresses Batman is starting to come across as a real ass

#6 Posted by darkwingdan (189 posts) - - Show Bio

While this issue wasn't the best, it was one of the better issues this title has seen since the end of Night of the Owls. It was especially a step up from the last two Tom DeFalco-penned issues. I want preface this by saying I'm not a fan of crossovers at all. One thing I've really enjoyed about the New 52 is that most of the titles seem self contained and don't really spill into others - which is helpful when you're on a budget. So I'm already dealing with my own personal bias when reading this.

With regard to the art, I have to say that Eddy Barrows just knocked it out of the park. This was definitely the best looking issue. You can tell that the time off allowed Eddy to really focus on making sure panels maintained continuity and that there was not a single panel where you could say "yeah, he kind of took it easy there." Overall, great job on the artwork.

As for the writing, Kyle Higgins did an admirable job [in my opinion] taking this crossover event and making it work so that this issue could be read as a straight up Nightwing vs. Joker story. I say that because I read this issue twice; the first time I read it considering the context of having read Batman, Batgirl and Batman & Robin. And reading it from that perspective hurts this issue; it makes this issue feel like a forced tie-in. One of the better ones, sure, but still forced.

For my second reading, I went back and read issues 10 - 14 first. I wanted to remind myself what as going on in Dick's life leading up to #15. And doing so made me enjoy this issue much more. By reading in the context of just the Nightwing series, the Joker shows up like he would in typical fashion - unexpectedly and at his own convenience, causing havoc and chaos for the title's protagonist. Sure, there's the page where Dick and Barbara are talking about Batman being a jerk, but that seems like a conversation these characters would have with or without a crossover event. It came across as natural. Then there's the question of "does Joker know who Nightwing is?" I've always assumed that Joker knows who Batman is, and therefore knew Dick was Robin and then Nightwing by association. He just didn't care. Also, Joker is probably angry at Nightwing for "playing dress-up" when Bruce was time travelling or something (sidenote: we need a "history of the New 52" at some point). So for him to come after Dick personally, it made sense to me. Overall, I'd say this was a good issue. I'm looking forward to Dick's showdown with the Joker in #16, but I'm more excited for what Higgins has planned after DOTF.

#7 Edited by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@LuigiBat said:

Didn't think the issue was anything spectacular, at this point everything is still just leading up to one big event and they are only teasing at what could happen. As with a lot of the DOTF issues that haven't been penned by Snyder you get the feeling that DC has kept a tight grip on the writers to avoid too much being given away, or for that matter its not unlikely that (as with Court of Owls) they're actively stopping the other characters from outshining Batman.

Pretty much,as a Nightwing/Dick fan the DCNU has left me frustrated.This issue wasn't bad at all,Higgins has a solid grasp on the character and the Batman mythology but there's something missing here and in my opinion it's these ridiculous crossovers.They will do absolutely nothing for the character,the Joker will be taken down in the main Batman book just like the Court of Owls so these filler issues are nothing more than a waste of time,entertaining yes but worthless.Also I dislike the current Batman line,it's creatively stale.

Nightwing and all the other books should have their own unique direction and atmosphere,but right now the entire Batman franchise save a certain exception or 2 looks like it's marketed towards fans of torture porn and slasher movies.

Everything is the same now,heck I wouldn't mind Tony Daniels Batman(not TEC),it may have been very simplistic and light but I'll take that over the Hurwitz's supposedly complex The Dark Knight.

#8 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with DC is it has no balls when it comes to NW comics. I mean Reyna? who gives a shit about Reyna, she was just a booty call that betrayed Dick and was in on having him killed the entire time and then all of sudden were supposed to care and feel so sad. Doesnt make sense especially since Dick has got a new booty call in the same exact issue. So im supposed to care about Reyna and be inticed by Dicks new fling at the same time w/e DC. This what I mean about DC having no balls what so ever. Now just imagine the same exact comic, the same exact scenerio, but having it be Wally West instead of Reyna, having NW face his old best friend who is crazed and trying to kill him, that would turn it from a piss poor story into a great story. Like Wally went to retire like he did before the Flash died before and the Joker abducted him and made him go crazy like reyna. Epic fight, epic story, real connection to Dicks life and the readers. Dick saves his friend, we find out that Wally is not in limbo, hes just retired, DC reintros a great character but still keeps him on the shelf ( which is what they want not me) But no lets off some hoe thats been in like 3-4 issues.

#9 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid issue, solid series, but so far this event's done nothing for Dick Grayson. I understand the point of going after Bruce's allies (Because honestly the idea that Joker's known for years and hasn't done anything is ridiculous, even worse is the idea that he was once wandering around the cave for hours. Make's Bruce look extremely incompetent), but this really seems like it should be wrapped up quickly and the various characters should go back to their own titles and do their own thing.

And Raya...just again Raya, a girl who no one cares about, but being forced into a role to draw sympathy from the readers. And in the end, that's just taking away a member of the Nightwing cast who could've been slowly built up and used to greater effect much, much later in the series. SMH, such a waste.

#10 Posted by BatWatch (2830 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nightwingdg

I don't really think Batman and Nightwing really are much of the Dynamic Duo any more. There relationship was not very long in the DCNU, so their partnership ending really wouldn't carry much weight. I can see Dick possibly killing Joker, but I'm not seeing that as extremely likely.

I don't really see why people were so impressed by Nightwing #15. Joker killed a guy who looked like him, poisoned a girl with Joker toxin and turned her against Dick (possibly because of the personal angle possibly to get a rival acrobat), and then threatened the circus. People act like it is new, but to me, it seems completely predictable. Kill, poison, threaten. Big whoop. There was no psychological angle to it except the threat of violence and discovery which was established in the main arc.

@entropy_aegis:

Beyond the Death of the Family story, I haven't felt any torture porn feel from most of the Bat family stories, but I do agree that they should each have their own feel, and they really do not. Nightwing feels like nothing but an extension of the Batman comics, and that is a shame because he was so much more. Damian deserves his own title, but they have to lump Batman in there with him because of the title even when Damian's story does not always need a Batman. Teen Titans has its own direction, but it is a bad one. Batgirl seems frivolous in the grand scheme of things though she does have her own tone. RHATO does have its own thing going so kudos there as does Batwoman. Birds is pretty meh.

Anyway, not feeling all your criticisms, but I can certainly commissorate with some of them.

Oh, and in general, Nightwing has just been too weak. He should be more developed than he is even taking into account his shorter amount of training time.

@RitchieB said:

The problem with DC is it has no balls when it comes to NW comics. I mean Reyna? who gives a shit about Reyna, she was just a booty call that betrayed Dick and was in on having him killed the entire time and then all of sudden were supposed to care and feel so sad. Doesnt make sense especially since Dick has got a new booty call in the same exact issue. So im supposed to care about Reyna and be inticed by Dicks new fling at the same time w/e DC. This what I mean about DC having no balls what so ever. Now just imagine the same exact comic, the same exact scenerio, but having it be Wally West instead of Reyna, having NW face his old best friend who is crazed and trying to kill him, that would turn it from a piss poor story into a great story. Like Wally went to retire like he did before the Flash died before and the Joker abducted him and made him go crazy like reyna. Epic fight, epic story, real connection to Dicks life and the readers. Dick saves his friend, we find out that Wally is not in limbo, hes just retired, DC reintros a great character but still keeps him on the shelf ( which is what they want not me) But no lets off some hoe thats been in like 3-4 issues.

It would take some careful plot construction to pull off that concept in a two issue crossover, but I like it. Good thought. @Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Solid issue, solid series, but so far this event's done nothing for Dick Grayson. I understand the point of going after Bruce's allies (Because honestly the idea that Joker's known for years and hasn't done anything is ridiculous, even worse is the idea that he was once wandering around the cave for hours. Make's Bruce look extremely incompetent), but this really seems like it should be wrapped up quickly and the various characters should go back to their own titles and do their own thing.

And Raya...just again Raya, a girl who no one cares about, but being forced into a role to draw sympathy from the readers. And in the end, that's just taking away a member of the Nightwing cast who could've been slowly built up and used to greater effect much, much later in the series. SMH, such a waste.

Yeah, I was also ticked by the implication that we should care about the death of Raya. She was a character designed just for betrayal, yet we are supposed to care that she got what she had coming? Not hardly.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

#11 Posted by entropy_aegis (15456 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch:I'm sorry I should have mentioned the books that I read or want to read.

Batman,INC,Nightwing,TDK,Tec,B&R are the ones I read,Batgirl,Catwoman and BOP I want to read.

Honestly I think only INC,Red Hood and BOP have their own direction.I dont bother with Red Hood cause it has Starfire and Roy(who in their current incarnations I have no interest whatsoever),BOP is just lackluster IMO.

The rest of the Batman line feels the same to me for some reason,maybe it's the art,or the overemphasis on dark,gritty stories.

IMO it would be better if some of these characters relocated elsewhere,Gotham is overloaded.

#12 Posted by BatWatch (2830 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@BatWatch:I'm sorry I should have mentioned the books that I read or want to read.

Batman,INC,Nightwing,TDK,Tec,B&R are the ones I read,Batgirl,Catwoman and BOP I want to read.

Honestly I think only INC,Red Hood and BOP have their own direction.I dont bother with Red Hood cause it has Starfire and Roy(who in their current incarnations I have no interest whatsoever),BOP is just lackluster IMO.

The rest of the Batman line feels the same to me for some reason,maybe it's the art,or the overemphasis on dark,gritty stories.

IMO it would be better if some of these characters relocated elsewhere,Gotham is overloaded.

Yeah, I've been wanting to write and article saying the exact same thing; the teams should spread out. I'm hoping maybe that will be some of fallout from Death of the Family. I like fairly dark and gritty stories, but I agree that the books would be better if they differed in tone. Why not make Detective more focused on Bruce's Detective aspect? Batman could be a little less dark. The Dark Knight could be...dark. Maybe that wouldn't work, but it is a nice idea. Birds is indeed lackluster. It was okay the beginning, but it has been getting world. JimZub is supposed to be taking over, so maybe that will improve things. I enjoy Arsenal and Starfire in Outlaws, but I can fully understand someone who objects to the changing of the old characters. Inc. definitely has a direction that Morrison has been working towards for years.

Out of the ones you want to read, Batgirl is the best, Birds is meh, but I'm hoping JimZub will help, and Catwoman has been lousy since Nocenti.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

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