New origin is terrible

#1 Posted by redwingx (1148 posts) - - Show Bio

As a big Nightwing fan, I am really dissapointed in what DC has done to him

#2 Posted by Jayc1324 (15735 posts) - - Show Bio

Same with the rest of the bat family. And now he's on the verge of getting killed off and his series is getting canceled. On the bright side there's a rumor that a new series called nightwing and bluebird is gonna be starting up soon

#3 Posted by JayAaerow (507 posts) - - Show Bio

How? His Origin out of all the Batfamily is probably the best...cause they kept most of everything the same.

  • His Parents still died like before
  • He's adopted(A lot of books outside says this and even he did at one point in his book. I don't know why people think he wasn't adopted. He was.)
  • The Robin Mantle Idea is still from his mother.

A lot of things remained the same. With some differences:

  • Age(My only gripe about the New Origin)
  • He figures out Bamtan's Identity himself(Honestly, it makes sense. It at least acknowledges that both him and Bruce are similar. Something about their dynamic that must be known. It is Tim Drake-ish but Tim in the Reboot wasn't a Robin Fanboy and knew DG at the circus in which he used that connection with the fact Robin did a quaddrupple flip on video to finally come to the conclusion who DG was and by extension, Bruce and Jason.)
  • He plays Kid Vigilante for a little bit.(It made him seem more badass.)
  • Was suppose to be a Talon for the Court(It interesting. ._. I wish they did a little but more with this in his book around the time of Night of the Owls. But now you can no longer say he is nothing without Bruce taking him in. He would been an Assassin. Probably the best for em, too. Badass.)

I really don't hate the origin. With the age exception, I think it's awesome. It just expands on what was done before. It took the old and added a new take on it without changing it to the point it was unrecognizable. It ain't no Joker's Robin or a Job Application one sought cause he thought he was good enough.

#4 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

Been away for a while, was there something new about his origin that made it downright terrible? My only problems still remain his starting age being 16 and his connection to the Court of Owls through that whole "Grey-Son" bull.

#5 Edited by nightwingism (132 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of all the rebooted origins, his retains the most amount of 'The Dick Grayson Origin'. His origins is simply that his parents died in the circus, because of Tony Zucco, and Bruce Wayne, seeing this takes place, takes him in, and trains him to be Robin.

Sure, now he is 15 years old when his parents died (15 when his parents died, but 16 when being Robin, not a year of training as Robin though, 1/2 a year). But if you noticed, his age kept getting older from start of Robin, even in the pre-reboot, for example, in Batman and Robin by Grant Morrison he mentions "I had you figured out since I was 12" to the Joker while he was in that disguise, and unless Joker didn't appear till 3 years into his original career, he was older than he was in the past. And because he is older, and all the Robins are all kind of close to the same age, excluding Damian, it helps give the illusion that there is only 1 Robin, instead of a Robin being 9-18, then another being what 10-15, then 13-17, then 10. Dick was 16-18, Jason 17 and Tim like 16-17, approximately. By the way, I included Tim being Robin, because technically he was still Robin, sure he went by Red Robin, but that was just a formality, I'm sure Batman still called him Robin in the field, and other villains did too, especially with the "R" on his suit. [Still hate that though, that's just what I say to get over it]

Being a talon thing could of be used, and was actually suppose to be used in pre-reboot, as Scott Snyder had this idea to use for a Batman story, and they let him use it for the first main story of the reboot. It didn't take anything away from Dick, all it did was add a secret to his circus. And the Gray-Son of Gotham thing was actually pretty nice, sure it wasn't needed, but it is still a nice touch. How can the Prince of Gotham, be the prince if he doesn't have connections as deep as everyone else. His connections are just darker.

The whole figuring out Batman identity thing made sense, they emphasized his already known ability to read people to the point of Cass's, so how would he not be able to read Batman and Bruce Wayne and make that connection, and like that one guy stated earlier, Tim Drake is known for figuring out Batman's I.D. but he couldn't of done that if he wasn't a Dick Grayson fanboy, and since that connection is gone, there is no way he could of figured it out. He saw Dick do those flips, and he knew only Dick could do those flips, and he also knew that Dick was taken in by Bruce and put 2 and 2 together. Without the first 2, how can he come to the conclusion.

Sure the reboot isn't perfect and has very many flaws, but it is only year 2. You can't compare 2 years of building to 75 years of building. I know everyone loves the pre-reboot, but you have to admit, even the pre-reboot was not perfect (I'm looking at you Nightwing v2 #122 and your Jason Todd alien blob Nightwing cosplay thing.)

#6 Posted by Alak (964 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with the above posts saying that his origin was relatively the same as before, and even better in some regards. The age thing, however, still bugs me since I always liked the idea of him being raised by the Batman at such a young age. It just gave more credit to his abilities since he had so much time to evolve as a crime fighter by learning from so many heroes before deciding to go solo. Limiting Dick to a 5 year period of being Robin, Nightwing, Batman, then Nightwing again just seems to rushed. You don't get the sense that he's as properly trained as before.

#7 Posted by redwingx (1148 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah the age thing is a huge bummer but I guess they somehow had to make Bruce younger and introduce all the other robins.

#8 Posted by youknowwhattodo (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though it was unnecessary, of all the ret-conning the origin story of each of the Robins, it's the least harmful one. Jason Todd's and Tim Drake's new origin stories really undermined the best parts of their character.

#9 Edited by Munsu (166 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, Dick's New 52 origin is bland as hell. No idea why you all are defending it. Sure his parents die and he later becomes Robin but the process of getting there is so bad in my eyes. I hate that he was already 16 by the time he met Bruce and his parents died, then left like a year and a half later, but there is nothing that can be done about that because of the stupid 5 years condensed timeline and them wanting to try and force so much of the Batman family in there. Still, I hate that they gave Dick some of Cass and Tim's character traits. Couldn't they have come up with something more creative? The whole face reading thing was so odd to me and having him live at an orphanage and him helping Bruce out like a part time job I didn't really care for. Plus the whole Zucco story I thought was done quite poorly. I hate how he is back and his involvement in the Chicago arc. He should only be a one off villain like Joe Chill. Not this reoccurring focus in Dick's life preventing him from being able to move on from his past.

Though what I dislike the most is how they had him become Robin. That forced Lady Shiva (she had a terrible costume btw) story they put in Dick's origins for being the reason why he decided to first put on the Robin costume was beyond terrible. His Robin costume was pretty terrible looking too in my eyes (a crotch arrow? really?) but it is so dumb that Batman is getting his ass kicked by Shiva and Dick decides to go help and shows up in his Robin costume for the first time in dramatic fashion only to gets his ass kicked. How could anyone find that interesting? Couldn't he have saved the day somehow or done something exciting? No, it is the New 52 and Dick has to look like shit and constantly fail to make other characters around him look better. What makes it better is that later in the Outlaws book Jason beats Shiva in like one punch, lol. I really hope they recton this out of his origin. Just have the Batman and Robin Annual 2 story be the first time he wore the Robin costume. It was a much better Robin origin story in my eyes.

#10 Edited by nightwingism (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@munsu: He was actually 15 when he met Bruce, he was 16 when he became Robin. The process of him becoming Robin was the same as it was before, his parents died, except now before he even starts training he sneaked out at night and fights crime trying to find his own leads for Zucco, Batman helps him out and then officially trains him to become Robin after 6 months of training.

The whole Cass and Tim traits shouldn't be a thing anymore that people complain about, in an old Dick Grayson origin comic, it was stated that he could read bodies which was why he was such a good leader. I could find that picture for you if you want? Also the Tim trait, of him finding out who Bruce is, can't be there anymore. I say this because the only reason why Tim was able to figure out who Batman is, was because he saw Dick Grayson, being Robin, doing a quad-flip. And he put 2 and 2 together. Which makes sense to why New 52 Tim Drake wasn't able to figure out who Bruce Wayne was, because he didn't have the Dick Grayson factor in place.

The idea that Bruce used Dick for part time jobs was weird, which is why sometime along the way, he was adopted to make it look less suspicious. I can't argue with your point about the costumes, but at least it is more practical than what he wore before, and it does make sense to an extend that an assassin who had a reputation already would be able to defeat Batman, who only had around 2 years under his belt. The B&R Annual was like, the week after the whole Lady Shiva accident happened, and his first official time of being Robin, since while he was fighting Lady Shiva he wasn't official Robin yet. So you kind of got your wish on that part, it was his first time being Robin, but not the first time he wore the costume

#11 Edited by Munsu (166 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightwingism: No idea where you are getting him being 15 from. He was 21 at the start of the reboot and five years ago was when he met Bruce putting him at 16.

Well yeah, Tim's origin is terrible too, probably worse than Dick's new one, but in his new one Bruce had been scouting Tim to work for him before Tim even decided on his own to help Batman. So it didn't really matter if Tim figured out who Batman was because of Dick in the reboot.

Also when Dick charged in to get his ass kicked by Shiva he called himself Robin for the first time. That was when he became Robin in my opinion and it was a terrible showing for the character. Not when Bruce reluctantly starting training him. It was his big dramatic moment where he shows up in the costume he had been making for a while and officially announces he is Robin only to get beaten up by Shiva, a character that historically has more of a connection to Tim anyway. I can't believe Higgins okay'd this. I just hope they never bring up this again when Higgins writes his origin in that Secret Origins book.

#12 Posted by nightwingism (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@munsu: The 5 year thing is when he became Robin, not when he met Bruce. In the #0 issue, in the back where they gave that page character bio, and during some of the opening pages to the Nightwing comics after #0, they would put something along the lines of (I took this from the bio from #0) "Raised under the traveling tent of Haly's Circus, Dick Grayson was part of his family's act, The Flying Graysons. At the age of 15, Dick's parents were..."

Tim's new origins are pretty bad, but Dick's origins is still pretty much the same, as most of the people in this forum agreed, with the exception of the age and I guess the Court of Owls itself.

Bruce started training him around 6 months before the Lady Shiva mishap. And he did call himself Robin during that yeah, but if we are going to include the B&R Annual 2 into it, he says that it's the first time to be officially Robin, so for him, the Lady Shiva wasn't him being Robin officially. And again, you're right about the Lady Shiva being more connected to Tim Drake pre-reboot, but now, she is connected to Dick, Jason, and by extension of the Assassins for Ra's, Damian. No Tim at all. And hey, we can only hope that they find a way to retcon it. Maybe just make it a simulated experience or something. And him running into her sometime later in his Robin career to make #13 still in continuity

#13 Edited by Munsu (166 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightwingism: That doesn't make any sense then. Since that would mean that his parents died before the Darkseid invasion but if that is the case then that makes Dick having to fall in line with this dumb 5 year time line pointless. They could have had Bruce operate as Batman earlier and Dick's become Robin earlier (giving him more than a year and a half to 2 years in the role) if they weren't confined to the 5 year time line. That's annoying.

I can't agree with that. The moment he became Robin is when he was wearing the suit for the first time announcing himself as Robin in big bold letters. He talks about how he never wore the suit outside the cave before then. He didn't become Robin a week after when he went out fighting crime with Bruce officially. He became Robin when Lady Shiva was kicking his and Bruce's ass, which I just can't believe DC had that be the big climatic moment of his new origin. It was what the entire issue was building up towards, him becoming Robin, but it fell flat. It just ruined the entire 0 issue for me. It is also kind of annoying how in the 0 issue he talks about how he isn't even sure that is his final costume, basically giving artists an out to drop his ugly Robin suit for something better, but they keep drawing him in the same one.

Still I think we will just have to agree to disagree with this. I thought Dick's New 52 origin was very bland and unimaginative with the big climax for why he first put on his suit to be a complete let down. It didn't add anything new or interesting and made it more bloated than it needed to be.

#14 Edited by SupBatz (1993 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that most Bat-Family origins are best when left ambiguous. The more that writers go back and tweak origins by adding little unnecessary details (i.e. definitive ages, the Joker "creating" Jason Todd etc.) the more cheesy the contemporary stories seem and the more the writers piss off fans.

#15 Posted by nightwingism (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@munsu: I think you are thinking about time as in years and in big chunks, and not by months in smaller snip-its. Lets say the Darkseid invasion happened on January of 2008 (if the Universe is in 2013 at the start). That was a day long event in comic book time. Dick Grayson's origin could happen really any time after that, but still be before his 16 birthday. Batman got his Bat-signal in his 0 issue, the second story anyways where it shows the 3 Robins and Babs, which happened the day before Dick's parents were murdered, since Dick was bragging about it to the lady he said saying he is going to perform for Bruce Wayne tomorrow. He didn't seemed liked at all during the darkseid invasion, which means the Darkseid invasion happened before Batman's 0 issue as well, second story.

They should of made it like a 10 year timeline instead. 5 is just WAY to short of time. And with 10, they could easily just continue without having to make big changes to the story, and just fix it in the trade about the times they give when referring to the past. Dick would be 11 when becoming Robin, a year younger than he was in Batman and Robin by Grant Morrison.

I totally agree to disagree. No one could be completely pleased with the new 52, and for very good reasons for that too. For what Kyle Higgins had to work with, I think he did pretty well job. Like you said, the ending could of been better. I don't think Dick should of beat Lady Shiva, but at least a stand-still if anything. I was hoping that his outfit would be different too when I read that comment he made, his stupid crotch arrow is so pointless, but oh well.

#16 Posted by I3IO_HAZARD (409 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick's origin didn't bother me in the slightest, you people are getting worked up over basically nothing

#17 Posted by JayAaerow (507 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see the bad thing about his Origin here. Like I said, it's the most intact origin of the Former Robins.

Some need to back off the origin from the Cass/Drake train. He already had this ability to read motion. It was why he was a great leader. He can tell how to lead one person or a whole team. It's rarely emphasized Pre-52(I recall one instance and a information page showing that). New 52, they actually acknowledge it and show it every once in a while. Plus, it's not like Cass's reading motion, where she also anticipates your next move. He finds weaknesses though. It's similar but not the same. Tim did not have that Dick Grayson factor people often overlook that made Tim sure he knew who Batman was. He didn't figure it out with pure research. He had a slide of luck when he got close. In previous Origins, Dick Grayson did find out Batman's identity himself. So combining an ability he already had that people mistaken for Cass's and the fact he's similar to Bruce equals he knows who Batman is eventually. It's kinda reasonable for comic book logic. And in some form, has been done.

And why is the Lady Shiva thing that bad? It's about time he finally had some type of connection to someone awesome(Even if she's being downplayed with that costume and skill at the moment. In her defense, Jason was hopped up on magic and is slowly gaining super magic powers for some reason.) Batman got his butt kicked by Shiva, too. Who cares if his butt got kicked there. It was his first debut as Robin(not official to him but whatev.) He's excused(The number 13 one...he was already injured. Shiva stopped the fight for that reason.Barely excused. Bad arc still.) With that aside, It seems Shiva is interested in him as an opponent to fight. Like Richard Dragon was to her. Not a bad idea to play with in the future. He can't beat everyone. I do see what you mean, though. He's always used to up another character. But in this Origin story, there's nothing to bad other then the age thing(15-16 at Robin.). And no one is being upped from this. I mean, all he did was don the costume to attempt to save his new fatherly figure from someone he can't beat(shows how caring he is, even when he barely knew Bruce). How is it THAT bad. It's only bad IF they don't do any future stories with this that does it justice.

This origin seems fine! It's like something the New 52 actually did right in comparison to all the stuff he lost(friends, history, villains). All I wish they did was use factors they implemented more much better. Such as Court of Owls. That could be his League of Assassins. But that gets passed down to Batman and Talon.

#18 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1715 posts) - - Show Bio

With Tim being some kind of Olympic level wonderkid/genius/detective, and Jason being some chosen one deal with magic and sorcery, Dick's probably the "son" who came out looking the best on the origin front. Not that mistakes weren't made along the way.

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