New 52 Bright Side

#1 Edited by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright. So we know that a lot of changes to Nightwing hurts him in the New 52! But lets try having a bright side to this! Who knows? Maybe this'll help us out with coping with the changes! So be sure to tell anything If I missed anything noteworthy.

1) Nightwing is one of DC's Best Selling. That's good. DC knows he's a fan favorite at least.

2) After some research, he has appeared to have various team-ups. He started with Batman(Of course). Now this means he could of met other heroes during his time with Batman. Plus, it seems everyone here knows of Nightwing being Robin. So it could contribute to how people know him. He's also led a team along with Garth, Arsenal, Starfire and others name Vic(Cyborg), Garth, Gar, Lilth, and Dustin. He was also part of Batman Inc as an agent, apparently. He appeared in both Batman Inc and Batwing during his team-ups. Batman Inc. Says he's an agent of Batman Inc in the issue Damian died If I recall. He also teamed-up with the JLI along with Batman and Batwing too. There's also the fact he was Batman for over a year. So maybe, in all, he could be more important than we know. At least a writer recognized that he was a big deal before the reboot.

Evidence of Team-Ups from a Team with an Unkown Name.

3) Perhaps now, it's a chance to work up a Rogue Gallery again. A better one.So far, the ones that have passed in my opinion are Prankster and Lady Shiva(ignoring the bad plot). And it seems both are his nemesis. Prankster being the intellectual challenge and Lady Shvia being the physical one. There's also Paragon( i thought he was a noob IMO). And there's Mali, Johnny Spade, and the Mask Murderer around too! Possibly Antagonist and potential Rogue Gallery. So far though he has:

Lady Shiva(Best Rogue Gallery Villain to have. Just hope a better story comes out from it)

Paragon(I don't like him for now but the still counts)

Archeon and his summoner(Possible If she(The summoner. Cant remember her name) comes back for revenge *Shrugs*)

Zane(He was in Chicago when Nightwing confronted him)

Prankster(2nd Best after Shiva. Just plain cool and new)

Shox(Was pretty minor but could be a regular villain)

(10/22/13) Here's some newcomers and/or possible RG members:

Marionette(Part of the January 2014 Nightwing Solicitation. If you watched the TT episode where Robin has to go on a date with Killer Moth's daughter, you know Kitten. Well, in the Teen Titans Comics that was based off the TV show's universe, that was one of her aliases. ._. May be a nod to her or even a moderization of her? We'll see)

Mad Hatter( A Batman villain. Though he's not special, he's not bad either! Actually, in Robin Year One, he stopped the Mad Hatter all by himself. Not a bad choice to make him a NW Villain)

4) He's in Chicago and NOT GOTHAM! While Kyle Higgins said it was temporary, He has a license in Chicago. Maybe he'll be there a little longer then people anticipated. I hope so!

UPDATE: YEP! He might stay a little longer...but with Forever Evil, it COULD POTENTIALLY shorten this stay now.

5) He's still Batman's favorite. The Joker in his Solo series said that he's the Worst out of the "Batfakes" and makes "his Batman the weakest".

UPDATE: Well, Owlman seem to love his Dick Grayson....this must mean 2 things: Batman loves him still as his favorite or if things were the complete opposite, he doesn't. Safe to assume he does, though.

6) He has some Superb Combat skills. Apparently, they decided to take his ability to read people to new heights. He was always good at it, as said so officially(I'll find it later), but the New 52 improved it to make it very similar to Cassandra's Body Reading Motion thing. And has Court of Owl Assassin Traning(As it was noted that his Haly Circus train them in acrobatics. Batgirl fighting Mary noted how she fights very much Nightwing. And before even Being Robin, he was already a skilled Martial Artist already ) and still is labeled as a prodigy, whether or not writers remember this(It seems they forget). He's still one of DC's Best Martial Artist. Even attracting Lady Shiva's attention now. . he's beaten a giant demon, Talons(A normal skilled one and the best of the best with intellect), Saiko 3 times, Zane(metahuman with mind manipulating abilities), Shox, Spinebender with Batgirl and Prankster. He actually doesn't lose a lot.(Just stumbles too much). Many people complain that his villains just spontaneously have something over him and it's unnecessary and is just plot-line crap in an feeble attempt to make them more interesting(which it is).

7) At least some in DC still think he's important enough to be unmasked and be influential to a story.(Although with much of the rectonning, it's questionable cause we haven't seen too much to suggest this and unless we're elaborated on this soon......it's gonna be problematic)

8) He's has a better suit then he did pre-reboot. More gadgetry and it's more obvious on what's considered standard for him now! And that's good! And plus, it's much more bullet proof then his last one. Did I mention he made 3 of those? And Jason Todd is wearing one currently? So who rocked red first? XD LOL!!!!!

9) He's said to set to appear in the JLI Relaunch! http://instagram.com/p/U4P2QCNm_l/

Have any other things to contribute? Feel free to do so!

EDIT:

Did some research and in an interview, He stated Deathstroke and Nightwing still have a history, despite the TT adventures being reckoned. I didn't really know and accidentally stumbled upon it. Eventually, we're going to see this. This development came from when Nightwing #3 was released so who knows? Maybe soon, we'll see it. Still nice to know that we'll see some interaction sometime.

EDIT 2: Updated some things.

#2 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Thank You So much for this! I'm a Huge Dick Grayson fan and I've been keeping track of his series in The New 52 and I've liked it but like you said the New 52 has hurt him alot so I've had my complaints. This list you've compiled here made me think about some of the things the new 52 has done that are actually great. So Thanks man!

#3 Posted by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesonofneptune101: You're welcome! I had to do something. Major fan of him, myself since I was a kid. I know he has problems(ALOT) but I have to try to put something good into it.

#4 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I'll see what I can find so I can contribute to this forum. Thanks again!

#5 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

nothing here is reason for rejoice. the new52 destroyed him. you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

#6 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetimestreamer: Well even though Dick isnt' the guy he use to be, you never know what forever evil might change. So Just Hope.

#7 Posted by Denam_Pavel (147 posts) - - Show Bio

The team up was a lie. Gar has never left N.O.W.H.E.R.E. in his life and Lilith is a villain in their employ that Gar has no attachment too Cyborg does not have a life outside the Justice League. When he isn't with them he is up at Watchtower nothing else. Jury's still out on Garth and this mysterious "Dustin" but since Lobdell is off Red Hood I wouldn't hold my breath.

The supposed reading bodylanguage ability has been reflected in absolutely nothing so far. He's been fighting Saiko (his former BFF Raymond) this entire time and never suspected anything, didn't even notice a similiarity in their fighting style like Batgirl.

While being noticed by Shiva is nice and all Dixon's Nightwing was stronger

In nu52 they say he's a prodigy, they say he has the ability to read bodylanguage, they say he has lots of friends but it is never reflected in anything.

#8 Edited by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@denam_pavel said:

The team up was a lie. Gar has never left N.O.W.H.E.R.E. in his life and Lilith is a villain in their employ that Gar has no attachment too Cyborg does not have a life outside the Justice League. When he isn't with them he is up at Watchtower nothing else. Jury's still out on Garth and this mysterious "Dustin" but since Lobdell is off Red Hood I wouldn't hold my breath.

The supposed reading bodylanguage ability has been reflected in absolutely nothing so far. He's been fighting Saiko (his former BFF Raymond) this entire time and never suspected anything, didn't even notice a similiarity in their fighting style like Batgirl.

While being noticed by Shiva is nice and all Dixon's Nightwing was stronger

In nu52 they say he's a prodigy, they say he has the ability to read bodylanguage, they say he has lots of friends but it is never reflected in anything.

1)Well, He was doing something between the time he started being Nightwing and becoming Batman. It was said he was avoiding going in Gotham. I was guessing it was the time he was in some type of team. Unless it's been blanty stated none of this happen, it's still a possibility that just needs to be cleared up. We don't know the whole story, anyway. We're only 2-3 years into it. Remember, N52 Timeline messes up things. Im only taken what's been shown so far and not blantly stated to never happen.

2) Of course he didn't. A possible explanation is that he never fought his best friend before their encounter and thought he was dead. Plus, remember he was pretty much a reject Talon. His fighting style is probably going to be different from his enough to not really notice it If the Court stopped training him at some point before doing so completely. He's not the only acrobatic fighter in the world. The Talons just so happen to use a style very similar to his own. Saiko was not a Talon. Mary was a Talon. And even If he recognized it was similar to his style, how could of he put 2 and 2 together? He would of needed to have a encounter with a Talon like Bruce to draw the conclusion. Mainly here, he just wasn't dealing with the talons, nor was aware they were undead till alfred told him in the crossover, unlike Batgirl, who was told of their nature by Alfred and encounter a non-ex Talon.

3)His Body Reading Language has been shown. I don't think it be used for combat fighting, though. He uses it more when he's doing detective work then combat. It's been show it can, though. I don't understand why it's never emphasized before

4) He seems about the same skill. We just don't know the full scope yet honestly cause what we get is medicore villains(Paragon, Saiko) that somehow hold their own at all(PIS), people that just outclass him.(Shiva,William Cobb(Note: He was Bleeding out starting the fight)), or just can't fight(Prankster, Shox). We're just not given enough people who actually are noteworthy. And unfortunately, it's the same problem we had before the reboot. He's only used in other storys involving Batman the most, though he had many friends too. However, He's always back grounded or Sidelined for Bat-Events and rarely, do we see him take the stage. This is why many fans gripe. And today, still do. And only Deathstroke and Shiva have been given to him without relating to Batman in anyway or just given to him because of a hand-me-down from Bruce disappearing. He doesn't even have a Rogue Gallery. Yes, the last one wasn't that special at all but really, it was better then nothing.

5)Yes, He's actually been always regarded as a prodigy. The very problem with knowing so is that the way he's been written, he's showing less skill then he should be. Bruce Mastered all Martial Arts and what not and criminology before being Batman but learned a lot more from experience. Nightwing had the luxury of both experience and gaining that knowledge and quicker. And when he did it, even Batman himself said he made it look easy. The very problem is, he's not written that way and instead as a lesser skilled Batman-lite. Pre-52, he was too but back then,gave him chances and opportunities and it worked out just fine and became a well known hero within DC. However, DC Writers still want him to be used as a sidekick, hence why it's hard for anyone who has sat down, looked at Nightwing for sometime, and wondered why before they thought he was Robin-Prime or question how he can't stand on equal ground with Batman. Simple answer: DC doesn't see him like that like fans do. In New 52, he's super prodigy. Figures out Batman's identity pretty damn quickly and in 4-5 years, was skilled enough to take the mantle of Batman and survive a whole year? Not many can just do that. He should be very close to his skill. But then you get mediocre villains, outclassed villains and then have some random PIS thing like a cracked rib from Issue 1 being a factor that was just not needed, and subject him to getting owned by people like Owlman and used as plot device? It's very hard for me to tell you as a big Nightwing fan he "Rivals" batman. Pre-52, thanks to his time as Batman ,I can tell you he was. Now? Nope. It's too hard to see right now.

6) Also, consider this: He's suppose to be the 2nd World Greatest Detective. At least he said so himself and correct others when Batman was gone and it makes sense the one who stuck by him the longest would be worthy of such a title. And even Tim Drake admitted he was superior and he did teach him too. However, many people say it's Tim Drake. Why? Because people said so and has a lot more showing of how he is. Up until he became Batman, I tell you the same thing. While it make more sense for him to be it, Tim just looks it. He's always been portrayed as so because he was written, they showed many examples of that. On the other hand, Nightwing has normally gotten help from Oracle and just hasn't been shown to do it all on his own. And the times he did, like the "Who is Donna Troy" mystery gets rectonned. You just don't see him showing off his detective skills as much as Drake does and that's why you could put up a rather difficult argument in his favor. So the problem with that is that DC is telling us one thing, and what we read just doesn't show.

6) We're all aware of his dilemma with having so "many friends". I just hope we get more insight. We might, though!

7) To tie up my points: For the majority, I see where you're coming from. It's very understandable. While many other character suffer this too and he's not the only one, the problem is this: He's a fan favorite! Whenever I show people he's more then Robin, they always thank me and wonder why he never gets his own show, movie, etc. He's also very unique. Batman is just...Batgod.....Red Robin is in the middle and doesn't really struggle a lot till recently, Damian is dead....so yeah.....and Red Hood has that Badass Factor. He has...well...no factor. He's worked himself from the ground up like Batman, basically. He been around for over 70+ years like Batman. And his story wen't from being a famous sidekick to life after it. His story is always interesting because we see a lot of growth in him. It's not like Batman, where he's been portrayed to the point he's about the same as always with great stories(If he grows, it's as a character mostly). With him, we use to see him get owned by Deathstroke and now...holding his own and giving him a hard time and impressing him, calling him the best he's seen in a long time and Shiva now being impressed. He's always growing. And many people who find him decent just wish that he was his own hero at least. He's earned it. He's around just as long as Batman. Just needs a push and DC just doesn't want that for whatever reason. BUT it's not like all of DC hates him. You have writers like Kyle Higgins who love him. However, he doesn't hold any real power in comparison to Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns, Scott Lobdell, etc. So he can't just add who'm ever he wants. If they let him, im sure he would use more recognizable character. He has to build character ground up now. Also, Shiva is a great example. Kyle Higgins didn't write that. Can't remember who but it wasn't him and because of what he already wrote, he was in the A-Ok to use her. A example of power difference with DC Writers.

The point of that was because I felt you were trying to make sure I wasn't giving false hope. And they were very reasonable and understanding. I was telling you my input and why I posted some of what I did ^____^ I know I wrote a novel but I like to be detailed when I explain myself to make it crystal clear.

#9 Edited by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetimestreamer: True. Still needs changes. :/ Just gotta hope. That all we can do at this point.

#10 Posted by Vitacura (77 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesonofneptune101: Nightwing is the apointed punching bag in forever evil. That's it.

Anf this list is very depressing, a bunch of "maybes", "maybe he could have his own rogue galery", "maybe he would stay in Chicago"... that is was the new 52 brought to Nightwing, unfulfilled possibilities. There's no bright side to the new 52 in sight.

#11 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura: So far he's the appointed punching bag. You can't go by speculation and the first issue. That's to be decided after we actually get into a couple of issues in the story. And instead of looking at this list as a bunch of maybes you could look on the bright side like the title says. I miss the old Dick Grayson more than ever but I'm not gonna go around complaining about it. When you actually think about it maybe forever evil is just what we need to get the old Dick Grayson Back. You never know.

#12 Posted by Vitacura (77 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesonofneptune101: Is not speculation. Dick IS the appointed punching bag.

As speculation goes you have that there would be a new hero saving Gotham so is not going to be Nightwing. That Lex is going to form a resistance, so is not Nightwing leading anyone, oh but wait Owlman has an interest in Dick so with a little luck he is going to be used as a foil to tell Owlman story. Great.

All Forever Evil as done is isolate him even more and put him in the role of the damsel in distress.If the bright side is the hope that it would change, there's not a bright side.

#13 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura: First Forever Evil is not isolating him in actuality it's giving him exposure. Just not in a good way.

2nd I never said Nightwing would be leading anyone.

3rd You mean they'll explain why Owlman and the rest of the villains from Earth 3 kidnapped Dick because of Owlman's connection to his own Dick Grayson which would make it a Owlman and Dick Grayson story.

4th He's not a damsel in distress I'm pretty sure he's gonna end up freeing himself. He's Dick Grayson have faith.

#14 Posted by Denam_Pavel (147 posts) - - Show Bio

@denam_pavel said:

The team up was a lie. Gar has never left N.O.W.H.E.R.E. in his life and Lilith is a villain in their employ that Gar has no attachment too Cyborg does not have a life outside the Justice League. When he isn't with them he is up at Watchtower nothing else. Jury's still out on Garth and this mysterious "Dustin" but since Lobdell is off Red Hood I wouldn't hold my breath.

The supposed reading bodylanguage ability has been reflected in absolutely nothing so far. He's been fighting Saiko (his former BFF Raymond) this entire time and never suspected anything, didn't even notice a similiarity in their fighting style like Batgirl.

While being noticed by Shiva is nice and all Dixon's Nightwing was stronger

In nu52 they say he's a prodigy, they say he has the ability to read bodylanguage, they say he has lots of friends but it is never reflected in anything.

1)Well, He was doing something between the time he started being Nightwing and becoming Batman. It was said he was avoiding going in Gotham. I was guessing it was the time he was in some type of team. Unless it's been blanty stated none of this happen, it's still a possibility that just needs to be cleared up. We don't know the whole story, anyway. We're only 2-3 years into it. Remember, N52 Timeline messes up things. Im only taken what's been shown so far and not blantly stated to never happen.

2) Of course he didn't. A possible explanation is that he never fought his best friend before their encounter and thought he was dead. Plus, remember he was pretty much a reject Talon. His fighting style is probably going to be different from his enough to not really notice it If the Court stopped training him at some point before doing so completely. He's not the only acrobatic fighter in the world. The Talons just so happen to use a style very similar to his own. Saiko was not a Talon. Mary was a Talon. And even If he recognized it was similar to his style, how could of he put 2 and 2 together? He would of needed to have a encounter with a Talon like Bruce to draw the conclusion. Mainly here, he just wasn't dealing with the talons, nor was aware they were undead till alfred told him in the crossover, unlike Batgirl, who was told of their nature by Alfred and encounter a non-ex Talon.

3)His Body Reading Language has been shown. I don't think it be used for combat fighting, though. He uses it more when he's doing detective work then combat. It's been show it can, though. I don't understand why it's never emphasized before

4) He seems about the same skill. We just don't know the full scope yet honestly cause what we get is medicore villains(Paragon, Saiko) that somehow hold their own at all(PIS), people that just outclass him.(Shiva,William Cobb(Note: He was Bleeding out starting the fight)), or just can't fight(Prankster, Shox). We're just not given enough people who actually are noteworthy. And unfortunately, it's the same problem we had before the reboot. He's only used in other storys involving Batman the most, though he had many friends too. However, He's always back grounded or Sidelined for Bat-Events and rarely, do we see him take the stage. This is why many fans gripe. And today, still do. And only Deathstroke and Shiva have been given to him without relating to Batman in anyway or just given to him because of a hand-me-down from Bruce disappearing. He doesn't even have a Rogue Gallery. Yes, the last one wasn't that special at all but really, it was better then nothing.

5)Yes, He's actually been always regarded as a prodigy. The very problem with knowing so is that the way he's been written, he's showing less skill then he should be. Bruce Mastered all Martial Arts and what not and criminology before being Batman but learned a lot more from experience. Nightwing had the luxury of both experience and gaining that knowledge and quicker. And when he did it, even Batman himself said he made it look easy. The very problem is, he's not written that way and instead as a lesser skilled Batman-lite. Pre-52, he was too but back then,gave him chances and opportunities and it worked out just fine and became a well known hero within DC. However, DC Writers still want him to be used as a sidekick, hence why it's hard for anyone who has sat down, looked at Nightwing for sometime, and wondered why before they thought he was Robin-Prime or question how he can't stand on equal ground with Batman. Simple answer: DC doesn't see him like that like fans do. In New 52, he's super prodigy. Figures out Batman's identity pretty damn quickly and in 4-5 years, was skilled enough to take the mantle of Batman and survive a whole year? Not many can just do that. He should be very close to his skill. But then you get mediocre villains, outclassed villains and then have some random PIS thing like a cracked rib from Issue 1 being a factor that was just not needed, and subject him to getting owned by people like Owlman and used as plot device? It's very hard for me to tell you as a big Nightwing fan he "Rivals" batman. Pre-52, thanks to his time as Batman ,I can tell you he was. Now? Nope. It's too hard to see right now.

6) Also, consider this: He's suppose to be the 2nd World Greatest Detective. At least he said so himself and correct others when Batman was gone and it makes sense the one who stuck by him the longest would be worthy of such a title. And even Tim Drake admitted he was superior and he did teach him too. However, many people say it's Tim Drake. Why? Because people said so and has a lot more showing of how he is. Up until he became Batman, I tell you the same thing. While it make more sense for him to be it, Tim just looks it. He's always been portrayed as so because he was written, they showed many examples of that. On the other hand, Nightwing has normally gotten help from Oracle and just hasn't been shown to do it all on his own. And the times he did, like the "Who is Donna Troy" mystery gets rectonned. You just don't see him showing off his detective skills as much as Drake does and that's why you could put up a rather difficult argument in his favor. So the problem with that is that DC is telling us one thing, and what we read just doesn't show.

6) We're all aware of his dilemma with having so "many friends". I just hope we get more insight. We might, though!

7) To tie up my points: For the majority, I see where you're coming from. It's very understandable. While many other character suffer this too and he's not the only one, the problem is this: He's a fan favorite! Whenever I show people he's more then Robin, they always thank me and wonder why he never gets his own show, movie, etc. He's also very unique. Batman is just...Batgod.....Red Robin is in the middle and doesn't really struggle a lot till recently, Damian is dead....so yeah.....and Red Hood has that Badass Factor. He has...well...no factor. He's worked himself from the ground up like Batman, basically. He been around for over 70+ years like Batman. And his story wen't from being a famous sidekick to life after it. His story is always interesting because we see a lot of growth in him. It's not like Batman, where he's been portrayed to the point he's about the same as always with great stories(If he grows, it's as a character mostly). With him, we use to see him get owned by Deathstroke and now...holding his own and giving him a hard time and impressing him, calling him the best he's seen in a long time and Shiva now being impressed. He's always growing. And many people who find him decent just wish that he was his own hero at least. He's earned it. He's around just as long as Batman. Just needs a push and DC just doesn't want that for whatever reason. BUT it's not like all of DC hates him. You have writers like Kyle Higgins who love him. However, he doesn't hold any real power in comparison to Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns, Scott Lobdell, etc. So he can't just add who'm ever he wants. If they let him, im sure he would use more recognizable character. He has to build character ground up now. Also, Shiva is a great example. Kyle Higgins didn't write that. Can't remember who but it wasn't him and because of what he already wrote, he was in the A-Ok to use her. A example of power difference with DC Writers.

The point of that was because I felt you were trying to make sure I wasn't giving false hope. And they were very reasonable and understanding. I was telling you my input and why I posted some of what I did ^____^ I know I wrote a novel but I like to be detailed when I explain myself to make it crystal clear.

1) He still led a team just know that he retained absolutely no friends from that time, unlike pre-Flashpoint Nightwing who had dozens of friends in the superhero community.

2) Dick and Saiko were both trained at Haly's circus. Neither of them were Talon. Batgirl finding something familiar in Mary's fighting style is the bigger stretch then Nightwings. And when has his ability to read bodylanguage been shown in present day? He misread Prankster. He misread that cop from the Paragon thing. He misread Raya. He misread Haly.

3) It was not "the same story before the reboot", cause before the reboot he served on superhero teams and took on superhuman opponents and we were shown that what he lacked in superpowers he made up for in ability to lead a team.

#15 Posted by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura:

Well, You can argue he does. It's just small and /REALLY/ needs expanding. I'm only listing notable ones I think are worth a mention.:

Paragon( I don't like him IMO)

Prankster(I like him)

Shiva(I LOVE HER! FREAKING AWESOME)

See? Needs some /major/ expanding.

His writer, Kyle Higgins, is pretty cool too. If you haven't read Batman Beyond 2.0, do so. There's only 3 issues and im already loving it. I wish there was more. He's given us Paragon and Prankster so far. Shiva came from Defalco If I got his name correct. I betcha he will at least expand on that list. He's a fan of Nightwing's old solo series, after all.

And it's already been said his stay at Chicago is temporary. Most thought it was going to be brief. But Forever Evil seems to hint it's a little longer since he obtained a license. Just a interesting small find.

@denam_pavel:

1)I'll give you that cause I agree

2)Misread? O_o I don't know what you mean but he does use it several times within his own series. He uses this mainly for doing Detective Work finding a weak link within a group. In fights, I don't think he uses it. Wouldn't really matter If Dick and Saiko had similar styles anyway(Saiko fights a bit differently. He's a little more aggressive and claw-savy. Also, a single Talon seems to be more of a difficult opponent then Saiko, who's been defeated twice and retreated the 1st time they fought) , Nightwing wasn't aware of the Talon's existence and wouldn't have been able to put two and two together at the time. If he was aware of the Talon's existence and the connection to Haly's Circus(He found the book that had his name in it but wouldn't been able to piece the Court of owl's Talon existence in it. Remember, even Bruce didn't believe in them at one point and im sure like many of Gotham's population, dismissed them as a Fairy Tail). Batgirl has sparred with Nightwing and notice a similarity because they were acrobatically fighting.

2 instances he uses the Body reading ability in the New 52. There's actually about 2 more instances of him using this that I didn't post.

3) "Same Story"? Im not understanding what you meant by that. The only thing close to something like that was "Same Problem" and by that, I meant fighting wise. Though he did get some chances, people wished he fought more notable characters. And yep, He was awesome at leading teams

#16 Posted by Vitacura (77 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: argue he does what? Get his ass handed to him for everyone he encounters? Well yes he does.

And while I don't think Higgins is a bad writer, he has been terrible for the character. He destroyed Dick's home at Haley's. He sent Dick to live in an orphanage destroying his connection to Bruce without giving him independence in the process. He has him stuk in the past without friends or future, just now he said Dick wouldn't be a leader in the new 52.

I'm almost at the point of wishing Dick would had ended in Limbo with Donna and Wally.

#17 Posted by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitacura:

If I recall correctly, He didn't do the complete rewrite of Dick Grayson's history. That was Tony.Tom DeFlaco had more of a hand in that(He's a more influential writer. He's the reason Shiva is even in a DG story, period.) I kinda dislike his actions like getting rid of Haly's Circus and all but his time in Chicago so far is pretty cool in my opinion and can make up for it if done right. And he's attempting to give him a Rogue Gallery. But all that isn't as bad as Geoff Johns changing his status quo for the sake of plot. So, Im going to say his writer isn't all that bad. His Batman Beyond 2.0 series is cool!

And he's beaten almost everyone he encounters. He's Beaten Saiko all 3 times, Shox, Zane, a Talon, William Cobb, Paragon(hated it though, cause IMO he was PIS'd to survive a little longer), and Prankster, and even Acheron. If he has trouble, you mean? Well, I can agree with that and see why you may have problems. He's only lost to Lady Shiva(reasonable) and Joker(Part of the Crossover) in his own series. Both times, he wasn't the main one writing that part or was part of something.

Plus, a friend of mine actually asked Kyle Higgins if he's just as good of a leader as before. His user is covered out cause i don't think he'd like me posting his stuff online with his things known. Kyle does say he still is and we just haven't seen it yet. So I don't know where he has stated he's not going to be a leader in the New 52

#18 Posted by Munsu (163 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, the "you might be waiting a while" part is heartbreaking. I was hoping he would get put on a team in Forever Evil.

And I'd be fine with Higgins moving on to be honest. He's had plenty of time to do something with the character but when you look at what he's actually done it hasn't been very substantial. Very little to actually build off of. The character is still alone and isolated without any friends or interest villain to fight. I'm sorry, the Prankster isn't really doing it for me as Nightwing's "big villain". Also Lady Shiva is in the Outlaws book now fighting them, so I doubt she can be considered a Nightwing rogue, which is probably for the best as her appearance in his series was extremely disappointing. I get that Higgins has been screwed over by the editors and hasn't been able to do a lot, but I still expected more than what we currently have. I can only hope Forever Evil places the character in a more interesting direction.

#19 Edited by The_Nightwing_the1st (9 posts) - - Show Bio

What I have seen from the N52 has destroyed or at least hidden most of Nightwing's abilities. But, there hasn't been time yet to fully develop even half of his abilities. Nightwing's greatness in large comes from how dynamic he is, always changing, maybe more than any other character. Also Nightwing being THE prodigy he is often makes lots of his abilities outshine his others. I believe we should be criticizing DC on what they do wrong with Nightwing, but at least be tactful, not the THEY RUINED HIM :'''( no one wants to see read or hear that nor will they listen. And again, give people like Higgins time to develop Nightwing, there is a lot

1) His leadership has been defined as unmatched at times, but HE DOESN'T WANT IT. Nightwing usually lads in 1 of 3 ways. Batman assigns him (when the original JLA went missing and Batman formed a second JLA with Nightwing as leader), is pretty much elected leader (most teams he has been on), or in dire situation when he doesn't trust other's leading (Batman and the Outsiders v1 #5)

2) He is the world's second greatest detective, and maybe tactician as well, but he excels more as an improviser (says it in one of the 52 battles against Saiko I believe) He can sit down and figure things out, but Nightwing has a stronger altruistic impulse than Batman or the other Robin's and feels as if he is letting people down if he isn't out there helping, plus why not use resources such as Drake and Oracle since Grayson is a better fighter, why not use him on the field instead of at a computer. Which also ties into his leadership abilities, think of Nightwing as Alexander the Great. He forms strategies around the piece, while as Batman and others like Drake form pieces around their strategy. Dick serving on the front lines and the being injured by it will make him more endearing to the his eventual teams.

3) For all the griping about how head doesn't read this or that about people. Remember that Nightwing's biggest weakness (apart from self-criticism) is that he is too trusting of people. Even if he hadn't believed his friend was dead, and he recognized Saiko's fighting style (someone pointed out that wouldn't make a lot of sense anyway) he wouldn't let himself believe that his friend did that. Same with Raya, he loved the girl, so he wouldn't allow himself to believe the train of thought (still there but ignored). This again ties into his leadership, because he doesn't actively plan contingency plans like Batman. Nightwing is more passive about it, though he is known to have kryptonite in case of superman/clones (Outsiders v3 #37)

#20 Edited by Denam_Pavel (147 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_nightwing_the1st said:

What I have seen from the N52 has destroyed or at least hidden most of Nightwing's abilities. But, there hasn't been time yet to fully develop even half of his abilities. Nightwing's greatness in large comes from how dynamic he is, always changing, maybe more than any other character. Also Nightwing being THE prodigy he is often makes lots of his abilities outshine his others. I believe we should be criticizing DC on what they do wrong with Nightwing, but at least be tactful, not the THEY RUINED HIM :'''( no one wants to see read or hear that nor will they listen. And again, give people like Higgins time to develop Nightwing, there is a lot

1) His leadership has been defined as unmatched at times, but HE DOESN'T WANT IT. Nightwing usually lads in 1 of 3 ways. Batman assigns him (when the original JLA went missing and Batman formed a second JLA with Nightwing as leader), is pretty much elected leader (most teams he has been on), or in dire situation when he doesn't trust other's leading (Batman and the Outsiders v1 #5)

2) He is the world's second greatest detective, and maybe tactician as well, but he excels more as an improviser (says it in one of the 52 battles against Saiko I believe) He can sit down and figure things out, but Nightwing has a stronger altruistic impulse than Batman or the other Robin's and feels as if he is letting people down if he isn't out there helping, plus why not use resources such as Drake and Oracle since Grayson is a better fighter, why not use him on the field instead of at a computer. Which also ties into his leadership abilities, think of Nightwing as Alexander the Great. He forms strategies around the piece, while as Batman and others like Drake form pieces around their strategy. Dick serving on the front lines and the being injured by it will make him more endearing to the his eventual teams.

3) For all the griping about how head doesn't read this or that about people. Remember that Nightwing's biggest weakness (apart from self-criticism) is that he is too trusting of people. Even if he hadn't believed his friend was dead, and he recognized Saiko's fighting style (someone pointed out that wouldn't make a lot of sense anyway) he wouldn't let himself believe that his friend did that. Same with Raya, he loved the girl, so he wouldn't allow himself to believe the train of thought (still there but ignored). This again ties into his leadership, because he doesn't actively plan contingency plans like Batman. Nightwing is more passive about it, though he is known to have kryptonite in case of superman/clones (Outsiders v3 #37)

Well I reject your thesis that there is a lot of time. His supporting cast has been slaughtered once in nu52 and in his last solo he wasn't able to retain anything from writer to writer either. Now that is likely to happen again. And Higgins is not gonna be on this title forever.

The role he plays on a team however and his friendship with the Titans is biggest thing that has been added to his character since the 40s. So we should be expanding on that. But there are no plans for that. And they've got plans for all the way to April. And the longer he is established as someone that is ever more of a loner then Batman the more the writers' claims that "he has a lot of friends" are gonna sound incredibly false.

1) The excuses for why HE DOESN'T WANT TO at the beginning of a teambook are tied to his his history with the Titans. They got too close to each other and thus the breaking of relationships, deaths are repeated betrayals hit them all that much harder. But since he never had any friends in DCnU (that he at one point was part of a team is part of Red Hood canon but it has also been stated over and over again in that title that Kory and Roy didn't know each other at all and only just recently found their first and only friend in Jason) that excuse that doesn't hold up anymore. And he was hardly that reluctant to get involved with and then lead the Justice League the second time. Nor as he the reluctant one at the beginning of Titans Vol 2.

2) As stated there is not going to be any eventual team for the foreseeable future and seeing him get injured anyone and anything regardless of how little training his opponents had does not endear him to us.

3) I only gripe about it when it is first brought up as a good thing. If he can't use it to distinquish fighting styles regardless of how familiar he is to them and can't use to read people either because he just implicietly trusts everyone regardless of their behavior then it is not a pro. It certainly should not be compared to what Cassandra Cain used to do. Cain's ability was basically a superpower in it's own right.

#21 Posted by JayAaerow (450 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_nightwing_the1st: The leading argument is that by the time Forever Evil runs it's course....he'll be left with nothing. He's the type of character you don't wanna see that happens. It's just not him. Many people who're interested in Nightwing just want to see him actually develop as his own hero like Batman. And many feels that DC isn't allowing it. Many people pointed out that he's written as "Batman-lite" because DC doesn't wanna allow Nightwing to do anything that makes him look any better than his mentor. And honestly, it's a shame. He's been around for as long as Batman himself and his story is about going from Sidekick to Full fledge hero. And many people see him fighting mainly uninteresting villians like Paragon.

Another thing I see others gripe is his skills. You go on DC's page and look at Nightwing. He's labeled as a World Class Martial Artist and Detective. But to many, we're not seeing that a lot. The Paragon arc was fine on detective ability but reading Shiva's introduction almost made you laugh at him. He's suppose to be 2nd in Detective ability. At this point, we should see Nightwing be just as good as Bruce and not be that dumb. His fighting skills as well. He's always said by various sites and references to be second to Batman or rivals him. But everytime you see him and Bruce actually go at it, its always Bruce instantly getting the upperhand. Batman #600 shows that and then you have N52 Batman b*chsmacking him when he gets mad. Like really? If he's such a prodigy and his skills are close to Batman, we should see him hold his own. There's scans out there that put him close to Batman's ability(Fights with Cheshire, Deathstroke, Azrael, Ras Al Ghul, etc.) over the years but then you insert Batman smacking him down hilariously. Makes him look bad, disappoints fans who wanted to see a good fight, and makes Batman look bad as a mentor. When you mentor someone, you should be teaching them your fullest. If Batman done so, Nightwing shouldn't be a pushover to him. And he's his "Favorite" protege? But you can argue it's cause Batman can be selfish and wouldn't teach NW the fullest as some contigency so he can't betray him. Still makes him look bad as a mentor though If he so selfish he can't train someone to equal him out of fear they might turn on him. And, again, that's his favorite protege.

And the biggest gripe is the Leadership thing. And I hate that the most personally. He went from being rather well known to zero. Though Forever Evil claims he's rather well known. And people just aren't seeing that. That team he led may or may not have happen and he's only really teamed up with Batwing and the JLI so far. The best thing he was good at is seemingly hidden or gone. Just like his relationships. Now Arsenal and Starfire are with Jason, even though they're prominent figures in his life and probably would beat him to a pulp if they were good friends, as Jason has tried to kill Nightwing himself. Especially Starfire. And Tim being closer to Jason makes NW fans wanna pull their hair out. Him having lots of friends is what set him so apart from Batman. Now.....he really doesn't have much apart from the Batfamily. And Haly Circus is gone.

That's a run-down of why people are gripping and say "DC has ruined him". Many people are disappointed he can't stand as Batman's equal or rival in skills at least, can't have interesting villains and do anything cooler then Batman, nor retain a crucial element to his character that defines a great portion of him. And then meanwhile, have character like Batman hog all the glory(Letting him smack his protege around and having a story that has strong ties to NW himself, like the Court of Owls, and have him play such a small role) Red Hood prosper(at the expense of hurting other robin's elements) and Batgirl get proper treatment(While she is being portrayed subpar, at least they're getting her reestablished, giving her the ability to walk and establishing a Rogue Gallery with some thought and ones that won't be shared around other books, and saying she's just rusty). And all he gets his rectons of his greatest past adventures and all that defined him dissapearing, very small supporting cast, and now no secret identity.

I opened this thread in hopes that in time, he'll be fine. And try to update it whenever i can of bright spots. I only wish someone influential from DC would sit down and read many people's comments from this and various threads to know how they feel about their character. Im sure they would do so with Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Batman. It's only fair for a character who's been around for so long to be at least looked over. :/

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