@hushofthewind: I can't say for sure. All I know is that Dick is older than Jason, and there's probably a 2 or 3 year age gap. Barbara is actually the same age as Dick. I think at one point Barbara was older than Dick but that's been retconned.

@scouterv: Dick Grayson has been in the teen titans since the very beginning. Robin, Wally West and Aqualad were the original Teen Titans that's a fact. He was a teen titan at one point and one of the most famous ones, that can't be disputed.

It doesn't matter that Kid Flash or Raven are more powerful than him, he's proven to be very valuable to the team because of skills, his training, leadership and ability to inspire trust and hope in others. Cyclops is not a powerhouse like Storm or Jean Grey, but they rely on his abilities as a leader and gifted tactician much like Dick Grayson. That's a fact

But we clearly don't see eye to eye. You don't seem particular to street level superheroes while I have a high affinity for them. Me... I'll take Batman, Captain America, and Daredevil any day of the week over superheroes like Superman or the Hulk.

@vitacura: Is Dick not a mere mortal?

@scouterv: No, because he is a Titan!

@batcat91: Oh, no, I like street level heroes. The Question, Batgirl at times, Red Hood, and Green Arrow are some of my favorite characters. I do personally like some characters, like Superman, Green Lantern, and Aquaman more, but I have nothing against street heroes.

I just don't think we can put them in the same category, just because they team up. Now, I'm not gonna say Batman is a pushover, by any means. I'm also not going to pretend he can take down most members of the Justice League if they were fighting seriously. Let's face, it, Superman, Aquaman, Shazam, and arguably even Cyborg, if they wanted to, could drop him. Now, with Prep, maybe he has a better chance, but let's face it, who is going to give him that time when they're fighting serious.

Nightwing, is a hero, no doubt about it. He's got skills, and they can pay the bills. But I just don't think his skill set calls for him to be a "titan."

I'd say it's easily debatable, seeing as how every now and again there's some mind control business going on, and Batman drops his superpowered teammates instead of the other way around. True enough, there's a difference between fighting a Mind Controlled Superman and Superman, but it's still a human dude fighting against an alien with enough phyiscal strength to move a planet (Depending on the incarnation) And he routinely fights people such as Clayface, Poison Ivy, and Mr. Freeze, people who i'd say could take on many heroes that have been in the Justice League at any given time. The same applies to Dick and Tim, and even Damian to a lesser extent. We could even go to another area and use Green Arrow as an example.

Wasn't it established earlier in this thread that one of the definitions of "Titan" means one that stands out for greatness of achievement. So why are we talking about the skillsets of these characters instead of their accomplishments? When you look at the achievements of characters like Dick Grayson and Roy Harper in the DCU, it's easy to see why they are called Titans, it's not a stretch, unless you want to be purposefully obtuse about it in order to save an argument that was a false equivalent, so let's quit wasting time talking about the subject.

@scouterv: That's the point I was trying to make. I do really like high-tier heroes like the Flash and Jean Grey, but I'm more partial to characters like Daredevil and Spider-man (though he's not really street-level).

The point of a team up is that they rely on each other's specific skills, arsenal, powers and abilities to get the job done. It's not like Nightwing or Speedy for that matter, are wallflowers; they actively contribute and help the team out. Each a cog that makes the machine work. They do deserve the same accolades and respect, because they're with the team facing the same threats, risking their lives and being an active member of the group. Take for example the Avenger's movie. Thor and Hulk were taking down the larger enemies, Hawkeye was analyzing attack patterns and coordinating with the team, Captain America was holding the front and acted as the leader, etc.

So just because one hero is significantly more powerful than another that means you respect that one more and you hold him/her in a higher pedestal? I'm asking because I know I don't.

Look at Thor, he is literally a god yet he holds Steve Rogers someone that can grow old and die with the utmost respect because he recognizes that he is great despite his limits. He goes out of his way to summon him from the afterlife and talk to Steve one last time. I don't remember the exact words but Thor basically says he's lived for many centuries and that he's seen many exceptional men and held many honors, but the greatest honor for him was the opportunity to fight alongside the Captain and to be able to call him his friend. This is coming from a warrior god that fights alongside Baldur, Sif, and the Warriors Three. Captain America can't soar through the air in mach speeds or destroy mountains with his bare hands, but Thor, the god of thunder acknowledges that though he may be mortal, Steve is truly exceptional.

Since when has this devolved into a battle thread, I don't care about which hero would win in a fight, that isn't even relevant. I care about what do they contribute and offer to the team and you know what, Richard has been a guiding force for the teen titans. He even saved the teen titans at one point when Deathstroke captured them and sent them to HIVE. Despite having amazing powers they have a deep respect and faith in Grayson. He was at one point one of the youngest members of the team but recognizing his ability appointed him as leader. Robin did not make himself leader, he was chosen by his comrades, they recognized his worth.

You're thinking of the term "titan" too literally. Sure he can't finger flick a boulder and send it flying or run faster than the speed of light, but by virtue of his accomplishments, skillset and what he's done for the team, he is a titan. You are entitled to your opinion and you may not think he is a titan.....

But over 10 years of Teen Titans books say otherwise

Stay away from that douche Babs!

@batcat91: manly tears sir, manly tears. @scouterv you gonna have to hold dat sir.

@hushofthewind:

Thank you, thank you!! I'll be here all day folks!

...But no I'm kidding, I gotta head out and study for an exam, so peace!!

Outside of them both being victimized by Joker they have nothing in common.

But Grayson Todd. I LOL'ed.

I liked the plane waitress lady from before.....

Are we literally having a discussion on why one of DCU's Greatest Leader(It's a known fact he surpassed Batman in leadership and even Superman steps aside for him) is a Titan? He founded that group. His skills as a leader is what took them to heights. He doesn't define the team or anything like that but he's a major contributor. Trying to argue he's not because he's not as powerful doesn't mean zip. And plus, he's actually beaten some of the Titans whether they were in their right mind or brainwashed or whatever.

Did anyone in this post say they liked either instances? Future's End is an alternate universe so people shouldn't care that much. The random chick thing...I laughed because of the joke but other then that, I didn't like it. Because it didn't make sense he told Helena no in issue 1 but then in number 3, changes his mind. I, for one, hate him having relationships like this almost casually. I don't find him that type of character. And plus, I didn't like Agent 8 anyway. Too gun happy for a spy. XD And then she gets the Women in the Refrigerator treatment and lasts 1 issue.

Isabel? Yeah, I found her cool for a civilian-type interest. There's also Essence. Thought it was cool he was finally receiving his own love interest made just for him and him only.

@killerburrito: I'm taking the term titan more literally, because the original situation was the person I was talking to did the same with the term Outlaws, as it applies to Red Hood. I was trying to show the folly in that line of thinking.

But you failed to show the folly in that line of thinking because we were able to show that Dick and Roy fit the Titan moniker based on the definition of the word Titan, but Kori and Roy do not fit the Outlaw moniker based on the definition of the word Outlaw because they are not on the run from the law. Why you kept going on and tried to turn the Titans from standing out by achievements to standing out by superpowers, even though the definition of the word clearly showed that wasn't the only application, I have no idea.

@youknowwhattodo: You're right. This isn't working, since we can't come to a common consensus. I'll leave the fans of Mr.Grayson alone from now on.

@batcat91 said:

@scouterv: That's the point I was trying to make. I do really like high-tier heroes like the Flash and Jean Grey, but I'm more partial to characters like Daredevil and Spider-man (though he's not really street-level).

The point of a team up is that they rely on each other's specific skills, arsenal, powers and abilities to get the job done. It's not like Nightwing or Speedy for that matter, are wallflowers; they actively contribute and help the team out. Each a cog that makes the machine work. They do deserve the same accolades and respect, because they're with the team facing the same threats, risking their lives and being an active member of the group. Take for example the Avenger's movie. Thor and Hulk were taking down the larger enemies, Hawkeye was analyzing attack patterns and coordinating with the team, Captain America was holding the front and acted as the leader, etc.

So just because one hero is significantly more powerful than another that means you respect that one more and you hold him/her in a higher pedestal? I'm asking because I know I don't.

Look at Thor, he is literally a god yet he holds Steve Rogers someone that can grow old and die with the utmost respect because he recognizes that he is great despite his limits. He goes out of his way to summon him from the afterlife and talk to Steve one last time. I don't remember the exact words but Thor basically says he's lived for many centuries and that he's seen many exceptional men and held many honors, but the greatest honor for him was the opportunity to fight alongside the Captain and to be able to call him his friend. This is coming from a warrior god that fights alongside Baldur, Sif, and the Warriors Three. Captain America can't soar through the air in mach speeds or destroy mountains with his bare hands, but Thor, the god of thunder acknowledges that though he may be mortal, Steve is truly exceptional.

Since when has this devolved into a battle thread, I don't care about which hero would win in a fight, that isn't even relevant. I care about what do they contribute and offer to the team and you know what, Richard has been a guiding force for the teen titans. He even saved the teen titans at one point when Deathstroke captured them and sent them to HIVE. Despite having amazing powers they have a deep respect and faith in Grayson. He was at one point one of the youngest members of the team but recognizing his ability appointed him as leader. Robin did not make himself leader, he was chosen by his comrades, they recognized his worth.

You're thinking of the term "titan" too literally. Sure he can't finger flick a boulder and send it flying or run faster than the speed of light, but by virtue of his accomplishments, skillset and what he's done for the team, he is a titan. You are entitled to your opinion and you may not think he is a titan.....

But over 10 years of Teen Titans books say otherwise

This is by far one of the best post I've ever seen for a character when debating their worth as a hero.

And I agreed with you 100%. The Concept of a Titan member has little to nothing to do with the fact whether or not one has superpowers. Like you said, being a superhero isn't about how good you can fight all the time(this isn't a battle thread), though it is an important aspect in some ways. But it doesn't make the cake. Just about every Titan-related character has shown it's not just superpowers all around that make them heroes. It's a lot of things. Their sense of justice, pride in their team, how they handle their personal problems, how they define themselves, etc. Since we're talking Grayson, he's an exemplary example because he has no superpowers like Roy but still does the hero work. Not only that but he is considered the most powerful Titan. I remember Deathstroke and Jericho both considering him that as well as other villains that actually took him seriously and didn't retort to playing Batman comparisons. And it was not because he was physically stronger then everyone cause he sure as hell wasn't....but because of his tactical skills, intellect, and ability to lead others. Those 3 skills have help taken the Titans to heights. And they all knew why Grayson was their leader. They chose him cause they know he can handle it. Plus, he was a threat If he could lead the likes of Superman against you just by talking to him. He could get countless others to go against you just by asking nicely.

Waitt

Jason helped Roy escape from prison in the first issue so yes hes a criminal. Kori is an alien so shes outside of the law. Doesn't the team also have a bounty to?

@redwingx: Nice try, but when have we seen those things play into the narrative of RHATO? If you want to see how an Outlaw character is written, read Gail Simone's Batgirl run, Batgirl was wanted by the law and it played into the story frequently. Just saying that Roy was wanted by Interpol in the second issue and then never doing anything with it for over 30+ issues does not make him an Outlaw. It's the type of lazy writing that is consistent with Scott Lobdell's work, introduce an idea and then leaving it alone for the rest of the series but still wanting to achieve credit for such idea. Characters like Harley Quinn, Deadshot and Poison Ivy are outlaws, and it plays into the books in which they are written. Kori and Roy were poor choices in RHATO as neither were outlaws originally and when they tried to write one as an outlaw, it was abandoned shortly after and it has forced Jason to become a much lighter character (to the point where he has more in common with Nightwing than pre-Flashpoint Jason) and his book has failed to gain any traction compared to the rest of the DCU. In the case of Dick Grayson being a Titan, we've seen him achieve greatness again and again and it plays into his stories so we can call him a Titan. He didn't just do one great thing and then rested on his couch for the rest of his time in the DCU.

I am fine with the Dick and Helena relationship and would even be ok with her being his end all be all love but i would be just as happy if he stayed with babs. I think they have a great chemistry and have good stories together.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF JASON TAKING DICK"S BACKSTORY!!!!!!!

Idk who put it but i agree Jason should be call Grayson Tood bc thats what he amounts to now. They should have kept him as an outcast ( would be ok with him still being a part of the family but he should be the red headed step child of the family that does things his own way. He is basically just a copy cat of Grayson and has zero of his own story. He should be the one willing to kill. I dont think he as ever written better than when he was in Battle for the Cowl. I like his twisted Batman persona and would have made for a PERFECT villain for Dick. He could have been the one villain that Dick understood and fought better than Bruce.

I meant word wise..

Yes pre52 was great wasn't? He was a generic villain with a sidekick and faced Batman/Robin. Really great!

Seriously though the new Jason is way more interesting than pre52 imo. He is a such complete character now. He has way more story potential than ever.

Dick is also far from a Titan now and the new DCU couldn't care any less about him lol.

@redwingx:

So he's a more complete character when he is not being written as Jason Todd.

To be fair, I never said that pre-new 52 Jason was a great character. Personally I think that Jason has great potential as Red Hood but it's been squandered in both continuities. Pre-Flashpoint, he suffered from poor writing and inconsistent characterization, in the new 52, his heroic makeover has taken away a lot of the edge that made him a fan favorite in the first place, not to mention his relationships are pretty much copy and paste from Dick in the pre- new 52 and as a result Jason Todd has been unable to leave any type of unique stamp on the DCU. Put it this way, Jason Todd and the DCU was better off with Jason dead instead of having him transform into Grayson Todd. Kori and Roy have been done no favors by hanging out with Jason, his presence in Batman Eternal is practically to be a stand in for Dick since he is "dead", I have no earthly idea as to why Jason is teaming up with Kara in Supergirl. There hasn't been a whole lot of justification to bringing Jason back besides capitalizing on the popularity of Batman: UTRH.

At least at Spyral, Dick is trying to keep an organization from exposing the secret identities of the DCU which is more important than anything that Grayson Todd has done in the new 52

Judging from the new batgirl direction, i doubt Jay/Babs will happen anytime soon. So i'll just go back to shipping Jay/Kara.... If only Cassandra was back.

There's really not much to do with Todd, really. He's only been the focus of two stories, both as supporting characters. He died and made Batman sad. Then he came back to life and made Batman sad. That's about it. He should have stayed dead, honestly. His place in the New 52 Batfamily would have been better off with someone like Cassandra Cain (or Helena Bertinelli, but she actually has a good role in Grayson).

The new Jason's a complete character now because he took aspects of Dick Grayon's character?

And in terms of the new DCU not caring about Dick i'm fairly certain that even with both of his brother's wripping away aspects of his character his comic's (Including recent sales for Grayson) been outselling both of there's so take that as you want.

@jayaaerow: Thanks I'm flattered! I completely agree with you. Yeah it was pretty awesome when Nightwing at one point lead the Justice League, and I always believed that he would be the perfect candidate as leader of the next generation of the Justice League. Batman is my favorite character but Nightwing I feel is a more capable leader than either Batman or Superman. He has the tactical mindset and ability to inspire hope and trust among his teammates. imo he's up there with Captain America and Cyclops before the AvX arc in terms of leadership ability.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

The new Jason's a complete character now because he took aspects of Dick Grayon's character?

And in terms of the new DCU not caring about Dick i'm fairly certain that even with both of his brother's wripping away aspects of his character his comic's (Including recent sales for Grayson) been outselling both of there's so take that as you want.

Agreed. Taking a great portion of another character's aspect doesn't make them complete. It helps make them look more carbon copy(which got people thinking he's the epic fail Robin). I feel people only say that because of all the awesome feats Red Hood is doing and some of the weird backstory added like the All-Caste, which is actually cool. Out of all the protege's books, Red Hood is the only one treated like he's all cool. All the other main Bat proteges had some many problems in their books that new direction was required to try and fix those mistakes. RHATO is full of superb Jason Todd moments. As a Jason Todd fan myself, I can smile at it. It's a fanboy/fangirl Red Hood dream. Very ironic since he's considered the least popular. But as a Grayson fan, It's like "He's looking Grayson tho. Is nobody concerned about that?". What they need to do is write a Red Hood solo and do it almost like they did RHATO future's end, which was a Red Hood story basically and was fantastic.

To me, it seems the normal writers typically have no problem with Nightwing. You do get some creatives teams where members didn't like him(One of them in the Lady Shiva Arc admitted she liked Red Hood more and wish he died). Higher ups, however, seem to have problems with him (along with other Bat-related characters like Stephanie.). And no one really knows why. The best guess we got is that he interferes with the JL line up, which is their favorite sort of characters. Same higher ups that don't like marriage in comics, pushing Superman/Wonder Woman like it's the new big thing when most are like "meh" or just don't like it being shoved in their faces, and had to be demanded to give a Lois Lane one-shot on her 75th debut anniversary. No one can know for sure since we don't know them personally. Too bad Grayson sells nonetheless. And sales drive their butts more then anything. That and constant complaining because they act like they don't listen but they do.

Definitely. I know people that have problems with that but he just is.

In terms of importance, Jason Todd in the League of Assassins Arc shook up the magical world because he was the chosen one to stop Ra's Al Ghul to help tip the balance of power to Essence. Shook up the magical world to the point Apollo, Trigon, Constantine, and Xanadu felt it. So I think it's safe to say his importance in DCU is up there. On the Magical Side at least. So take that of what you will.

@jayaaerow: You're not wrong, Red Hood has really had some amazing feats in the new 52. But I never said that Red Hood never did anything of importance, it's just that in terms of what these characters have done, keeping Spyral from unmasking the majority of the DCU and further conspiring against the DCU, DC's role for Dick is of more importance than anything that Grayson Todd as done so far. Even though at first I was skeptical about Red Hood being involved in the mystic side of the DCU, I'm endorsing it more and more because it does help in crafting a unique place for him in the DCU and they need to keep going in that direction instead of trying to change him into something that he isn't.

Well i guess Jason Todd has some sense after all, and im damn proud of him for it.

Batman Eternal 028

@hushofthewind: whats this from ?

@midnightdragon18: Batman Eternal 28

@hushofthewind: Why would yoy be proud of a tease? The fact that he pursue her only to turn her down when she says yes is douche move.

Any relationship between Barbara and Dick is out of the picture by now, so what was the point? Show he could? Hurt Barbara? A last screw you to Dick?

Really what part makes you proud?

One the one hand, I'm happy that the writers have temporarily halted a Jason/Babs romance with Jason stating he's not Dick and I say temporarily because Batman Eternal is a long ride and there's plenty of time for the writers to go back on this scene. But on the other hand the writing of that scene was really weird. I mean Jason was the one who always had feelings for Barbara while Barbara had nothing but disgust until one interaction between the two apparently made Barbara develop some feelings. Now, Jason wanted to see her, Barbara offers herself to him and...then...Jason turns her down because all of a sudden he realizes he's not Dick Grayson. If anything the dialogue should have been switched because the scene plays out the opposite of how the characters have been written so far. What was the point in all of this, if you wanted to help heal the fractured relationship between Jason and Babs, that's fine, but there was no reason to develop or imply any type of romance between the two because you don't need that to heal their relationship. It's just bad writing.

@vitacura: i wouldnt call it tease, more so closing a book. I think Jason was just clearing the air between him and Barbara. And Barbara didnt look hurt in that last panel, she almost looked proud. It's not hard to believe that Both of those characters are still feeling the effects of "losing" Dick Grayson and i think Jason was trying to fill shoes he wasnt meant to fill. I agree @youknowwhattodo the writing was sloppy but im glad in that moment that Jason realized he was not Dick Grayson b/c Todd been making a lot of, dare i say it, Dick moves lately which didnt suit is character imo(mostly in Eternal).

@hushofthewind:

There wasn't any need to clearing the air until Jason started making moves, he is the one that open the book. Everything in barbara corporal language spoken of hurt in the way she hug herself with one arm.

Jason would have to felt the lose of Dick in the first place to be affecting still and Barbara wasn't thinking about Dick at all or she wouldn't be saying "yes" to Jason.

And nothing suit Jason better than using Dick's clothes. That is what he does figurative and literally since he was created.

@hushofthewind@youknowwhattodo

Love the scene, execution could've been handled better. It really reads like an Anvils Need to be Dropped work, as if it was an editorial mandate or something someone wanted to have said in the work, regardless of buildup and so on. However, it's certainly a good thing for Jason to realize, especially seeing as he's always envied Dick, but has never wanted to be him. So realizing that he'd just be a stand-in for Dick here is good on his part.

Also agree that Barbara doesn't look sad in that last panel at all. Women can hug themselves like that (And she's hugging herself with both her arms by the way) for a variety of reasons, and her face looks like she's almost smiling.

@nathaniel_christopher: Sure, Women hug himself when they are cold or when they are pregnant too. But since this is a comic and the visuals are part of the message I don't tink they are aiming to cold and I hope she isn't pregnant.

And yes, Jason has always envied Dick and now he is going for every person Dick has loved.

The way he keep going after Barbara until she said yes and THEN he didn't want to. Wow How people are seen it like is a good thing is mind blowing.

@youknowwhattodo: it's just comic book companies afraid of change.

They also just hug themselves for no reason sometimes to do something with their hands, or when they're happy. My point being that it doesn't automatically mean she's said, and that she again appears to have a smile on her face. Also, considering that they're on top of a bridge, i'm not sure why it wouldn't be cold up there, and it's clearly somewhat windy, as Barbara's hair is blowing, along with her cape.

Which is why this scene is again so good. As I said, Jason's always envied Dick for his relationship with Bruce, and because he's never felt he could measure up, and that Bruce valued Dick more, etc. Yet at no point has he ever actively wanted to be Dick Grayson, which is what him hooking up with Barbara comes off as, and it's the same complaint many have with him hanging out with Kori and Roy. Nothing that can be done about the latter two at this point, but good on the writers for realizing it now at least and not having Jason get with Barbara.

You have poor reading skills if you're referring to me, as I outright said it was written poorly, but them having him get with Barbara wouldn't have been any better. What should have happened (Realistically, they shouldn't have ever tried to have these characters possibly getting together at all, but barring that) is that Barbara is the one who turns Jason down and ends any discussion on the issue. They then talk about the reasons why, and Jason comes to accept what she's saying, that it's for the best, and both characters move on.

I agree. I just hope this is the last of the hinted at relationship.

Nha, so much drama...I'll be honest: the DickBabs thing gets on my nerves. It's like Babs is forbidden to have a decent relationship with anyone but Dick, while he gets to date and sleep with several girls and then she's just like "Oh, ok, no big deal".

Plus, that timing thing is stupid. When you truly like someone, you make it happen. Their romance seems pretty forced in the New 52, as we barely see any interaction. I'm not saying I dind't like to see them working together, but Jason and Babs, in the New 52, were funnier to see. Even if it turns out being nothing, just the obvious sexual tension between them is worth it.

I'm all for what works in the present, what has enough chemistry. So far, DickBabs seems embromation.

Last but not least, anyone complaining of Jason's poor growth as character clearly isn't reading his title or the issues he shows up in. He's a cool character, who knows who he is (read Batman Eternal #35, you'll get it) and I see plenty of reasons why Babs, or anyone, could be attracted for him. Not to mention he isn't Dick's true brother, especially in the New 52, they've barely been together before Jason was killed.

@hushofthewind: Dick and Barbara are 21. As far as I know, Jason is 19 or 20.

@x9 said:

To be fair, how many meaningful relationships has Babs been in that they actually try doing with her that's memorable? Not many. And Dick was a character he thought about marrying. People are going to have a hard time with Babs being with anyone and believe it o not, with Dick. Grayson fans may joke but not all of us actually like him sleeping with others. And Babs doesn't sit around and is okay with that. That's a incorrect generalization. She goes to outright slut shamming people in the case for Helena B previous continuity. Oh and she took a tone when she found out about Sonia Branch New 52. She has her times...a bit too much in New 52, though. But that's a different argument.

Also DickBabs is one of his big 2 ships which the other is DickKori. So of course any ship in the way is going to spark discussion. Hopefully, this one is intellectual and the point I wanna get across here is that Jason needs to be with his own love interest and stay out of Dick's. Just because they're not real brothers by blood doesn't mean we don't see it any less. Jason has seen Dick as a brother before, anyway, even If it's not New 52. But whether or not they're brothers doesn't concern me. It concerns me when DC feels the best way to give him characterization is to give him Dick's love interest. Not many liked JasonTalia and that was with Bruce's love interest. Plus, he's already wearing an old Nightwing costume apparently and given his friends. The more you do that, the more the reason you give his haters a reason to complain and say he looks like a carbon-copy Nightwing that's just edgy. It's high time Jason Todd gets treated as Jason Todd and gets cool treatment too. That includes his own love interests who give him great dynamic.

Also, I'm quite sure great many no longer wants teases anymore. We have too many of that. People want kickbutt relationships that're fun to read, not endless amounts of one night stands, bachelors, and sexual tension. Or somewhat advertised as the next best iconic relationship when it's like "Um....okay." at best.

In some ways, you're right. But not the type of envy that makes him want his life. He just wants to be accepted as much as Dick is. Normally, I say Batman won't ever cause of his methods but nowadays, Batman stopped caring about guns so much. And he kinda has what he wanted. It's DC Writers that makes it look like he's just taking Grayson's life cause they think that adds more character to him. Dont ya know that they give away various Grayson aspects to other characters? That was DC's way of screwing with him along with his Titan friends. And The Question...cause poor question.....

Don't get me worng I'm so over Dick and Babs that if it's never mentioned again I will be happy. By then end Dick and Barbara seemed as over any possible relationship as everybody else is, the thing with Jason just makes it worse. Dick has nothing to do with Barbara romantic life, at all. She had a decent relationship in her own book under Simone, she almost hook up with a dude in her last issue. She dated Jason Bard before the new 52, but I guess that's dead now that he is evil and Barbara is Jason Todd's love interes in Batman Eternal

So how is "I'm not Dick Grayson" a better reason than bad timing. If you make it happen when truly like someone what does means when you actually avoided it?

Jason hasn't growth as character, Jason has taken Dick's growth. Arguments and stories have been rewritten and adapted to Jason. This arc with Babs is the perfect example. Before the new 52 Barbara was older than Dick and he had a huge cruch on her for years, guess who has that life now. Jason is a leech character that wants to be Dick Grayson, Barbara only started to like him once he told her over and over how much better than everybody else she was and then he didn't want her anymore. You call that sexual tension I call it issues.

Jason has never been Dick's true brother, even before the New 52 they've barely been together before and after Jason was killed. So this fixation that Jason has with Dick is beyond weird and pathetic and it would be cool if the writers and the character get over already.

@jayaaerow: How many more pieces of Dick past are going to be adapted to Jason, before Jason can stand on his own? Dick's bond with Tim, his friendship with Roy, his complicity with Starfire, his relationship with Barbara. What now? his connection with Damian?

I think that's an issue with the writers more than anything, and them not bothering to creat any other decent love interests for Barbara. I don't really see fans treat her as if she can only be with Dick, but that everyone else around just wouldn't fit; like Bruce or Jason, which again goes back into the duty of the writers to create new and interesting characters that can serve as a solid love interest. (Though i'll also say, 1)Dick doesn't sleep around that much. Fans exaggerate it. He's certainly been with people outside of Barbara, but his count it still nothing compared to Bruce. 2)There's a common double standard about it being ok for Men to have multiple partners, but a Woman does it and she's the biggest whore in the world, so I can see writers toning it down some for that reason. Barbara's not the only female character to be written like this by any means. I'm not saying it's right, i'm not saying it's wrong. Simply pointing it out that its a common and real standard in our society that males can get away with easier than females.)

I'd ask how many relationships you've been in, or what your experience is with relationships concerning what you've seen from friends and family, because while it might be stupid, I can assure you that "timing" explanation is a real thing that happens all the time. This isn't the first place it's appeared. Outside of real life it happens in numerous other mediums, to the point that its a common cliche at this point. Not as if the writer just pulled it from the ether. I'll have to disagree with you though, Jason and Barbara's relationship felt forced, and out of character for Barbara to even consider. The little we've seen of Dick/Barbara hasn't been that different from what they were like together Pre-Flashpoint, and the same goes for the little we've seen of Dick/Kori. Both simply need some actual focus to be good.

And in terms of Dick and Jason not being "real" brothers, Bruce isn't their "real" father, and the same goes for Tim on both counts. That's never mattered before and shouldn't matter now. That's the same kind of argument people use when saying Damian matters the most because he's Bruce's "real" son, and i'd say misses a main point about the entire family. Jason and Dick didn't interact as much as Tim and Dick did Pre-Flashpoint, partly because Jason was only Robin for so short a time, and afterwards he was Dick's enemy, but while he was Robin all signs point to Dick caring about Jason. He was distraught over the latters death, hung out with him while he was alive (Outside of costume no less) and the first time he met the kid praised him, as well as offered to help him if he ever needed anything. Not the closest relationship by any means (Again due in no small part to Jason dying so early) but their definitely wasn't some deep-seated antagonism/rivalry between the two.

And people complain about Jason's growth since the majority of it really stems from him again taking aspects of Dick Grayson's character and having them added to his own. There was no way, no matter how any of them were written, that that was going to go over well with fans. Finally I really don't see any sexual tension between Jason and Barbara that isn't forced

What aspects has Jason taken from Dick exactly? I'm getting really tired of this bs. Just because Jason is not some crazy lunatic anymore does not make him Dick Grayson.

Name atleast one thing Jason has of his own.

Don't like Jason at all, the guy's a childkiller, don't know what Barbara saw in him.

Let's keep in mind that every Robin after Dick Grayson is taking something from him from the start, seeing as they, at the end of the day, are his successor's and following in his footsteps with the Robin mantle. Comparison's therefore can be found in quite a few places.

Jason Todd- Relationship with Starfire, Arsenal, and what was almost a relationship with Batgirl. There's also his new relationship with Tim Drake, who referred to Jason as the closest thing he had to a brother. Keep in mind, Pre-Flashpoint Jason Todd broke into Titans Tower and beat Tim to a pulp, with no provocation, stabbed him during Battle for the Cowl and left him to die in an explosion, and in general had nothing resembling a friendship with the younger man. Needless to say, Dick and Tim were brothers in all but name and clearly cared about and respected each other as such. The current costume Jason is wearing is just an altered version of one of Dick's old costumes, given to him by Kori. And these are all things that have shaped Jason's current character and the events going on in his story.

Tim Drake- Leader and Founder of the Teen Titans, Professional level acrobat

It could also be said that while Tim and Jason are both leaders of their own teams/squads, Dick isn't and his leadership skills, which were extremely prominent Pre-Flashpoint, with him acknowledged as perhaps the most trusted superhero in the world alongside Superman, haven't been mentioned at all. And honestly people have said it often enough, but Dick Grayson was formerly the heart of the DC Universe Superheroes, yet he really seems to have very few close friends at this point, which is in stark contrast to Jason and TIm.

@jayaaerow, @vitacura and @nathaniel_christopher: Dear fellas, what I got from your comments is that:

1) Comics are still very sexist

2) As well as comic book readers

When JayAaerow asked me how many meaningful realtionships Babs has been in, apart from the one she had with Dick, I couldn't think of one. And this happens with Dinah, Selina Kyle, Lois Lane...in fact, it's easier to list female characters who HAD more than a important relationship (in the same universe; technically Kori had Dick and Roy, but, in the New 52, she only had Roy, her thing with Dick was barely a relationship).

The sexism of fans comes in when they think that equality is to make them sleep with random guys the same way...when, in fact, what we see with Bruce, Dick, etc are developed relationships with multiple women. There's a difference, you see. So Babs could make out with how many random dudes she wants, she'll still be emotionally attached to a single male character: Dick.

This sexism also shows when they think that any intervention on this scenario is a waste. Like: she's only had a significant relationship once, WHY sould we give a chance to a new romance?

Even though you said you aren't big DickBabs shippers, your main point is her previous (and New 52 nonexistent) relationship with Richard :P

In Batgirl forums, I was surprise with the number of people supporting JayBabs. It's not even a matter of "oh, they'll get married and have babies", but gosh, they work together, they're fun to watch and angry Batgirl fits (or at least used to fit...damn new book) the Outlaws vibe.

What annoys me is that the critics are mostly about how the JayBabs thing is an ofense to Grayson, but we don't see that level of revolt when he's the one who's experiecing new things and meeting new girls (even falling in love). If Selina and Grayson flirted, for example, it'd be an ofense to BRUCE, not Barbara. So, in the end, if doesn't matter if it's Bard, Ricky, now Jason and it'll be like this forever: Babs character is suck to Dick, as well as Selina is to Bruce.

P.S: No, you don't need to be a girl to think like that.

P.S 2: Nops, it wasn't a speech TOWARDS you guys, it's a conclusion I've reached.

P.S 3: It'll help me with college...so thanks!

@vitacura: I agree, Jason and Dick never acted like brothers, this whole 'bro thing' fans talk about is forced....and I'll be pretty honest, it's soooo common for brothers to have a crush on the same person. Makes total sense.