is this really happen? ?

#1 Posted by starrk_coyote (624 posts) - - Show Bio

so.... >.>......<.<....>.>.....i have been going back to the old teen titans books....and maybe i just did not understand, or i just miss read the panels...but is it true that dick greyson raped barbara?????

well it has happen from what i could tell the night before he's Engagement to starfire...but I COULD BE WRONG!....>.>....<.<....>.>......so...can you guys help me out...i do not remember what issue it was...but i really think that greyson raped her.....>.>.....

i am so...NOT..,, comfortable with Richard greyson any more....THANK GOD THAT MY FAVORITE ROBIN IS the LITTLE TIMY :D

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

What?

No.

What?!

#3 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

I do believe you misinterpreted a scene. Dick never mistreated, let alone raped, Barbara. Can you name the issue and/or the storyline?

#4 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Let me explain what happened and exactly why Barbara was crying and throwing things at Dick.(Yes I know exactly the panels you're talking about) It was a few months after she'd been paralyzed by the Joker. We all know the trauma and therapy she had to undergo. Dick wasn't there for it, he was on Tamaran taking care of business with the Teen Titans. As soon as he got back he then went to see her. They ended up having sex, and it was only after that Dick told Barbara he was getting married to Kori, by giving her an invitation to the wedding. (Not his smartest move, and let's all keep in mind that this was canonically the first time they were ever together to this extent and they wouldn't even actually date until years later) Barbara understandably flipped and proceeded to chew Dick out, not only being angry at him, but still containing some self loathing for her newly crippled state. There was no rape involved, it was completely consensual on the part of both participants.

#5 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

Still, it was kind of a dick move... Get it?

#6 Posted by starrk_coyote (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

No. Let me explain what happened and exactly why Barbara was crying and throwing things at Dick.(Yes I know exactly the panels you're talking about) It was a few months after she'd been paralyzed by the Joker. We all know the trauma and therapy she had to undergo. Dick wasn't there for it, he was on Tamaran taking care of business with the Teen Titans. As soon as he got back he then went to see her. They ended up having sex, and it was only after that Dick told Barbara he was getting married to Kori, by giving her an invitation to the wedding. (Not his smartest move, and let's all keep in mind that this was canonically the first time they were ever together to this extent and they wouldn't even actually date until years later) Barbara understandably flipped and proceeded to chew Dick out, not only being angry at him, but still containing some self loathing for her newly crippled state. There was no rape involved, it was completely consensual on the part of both participants.

THANKS! for helping me to find out the true! :) thanks

#7 Posted by Squalleon (4610 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

Still, it was kind of a dick move... Get it?

lol

#8 Posted by Z3RO180 (6549 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher Dude that's something straight out of a romance movie. Now I want to read it what is the name of the story?

#9 Posted by mk111 (3140 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick sounds like a jerk in that comic.

#10 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

It's from the Nightwing Annual #2, I believe

And yeah, word cannot describe the amounts of dou***baggery that Dick committed there. Absolutely no rape, but a complete betrayal of Barbara's trust and emotions nonetheless.

#11 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@starrk_coyote: Here are the scans, if you're interested

#12 Posted by Lightburst (163 posts) - - Show Bio

Man the things that make you love Dick (no pun intended) even more LOL. but no that was a pretty dick move.

#13 Edited by starrk_coyote (624 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

@starrk_coyote: Here are the scans, if you're interested

@Ravager4: thanks :) for the scans :)

#14 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

ya all he did was cheat on his fiancee with his closest friend who loved him and then said he would still marry his fiancee who has no clue what he did. Ya Dick can be a dick

#15 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4806 posts) - - Show Bio

Aye he was trying to tell her, but she manhandled him. There was nothing he could do. XP (+)

#16 Edited by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

#17 Posted by GodDamnIronMan (1553 posts) - - Show Bio

Is that for real?!

#18 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

#19 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

Yeah...seriously, I'm a little horrified by the suggestion that this is even remotely a cool or commendable thing. So, what, Dick used Barbara to relieve his "sexual tension"? He treated her like an object rather than a person with feelings attached? How is that "well played?"

No, it wasn't rape, but consider: Had he told her about the engagement when he arrived, would she have consented to having sex with him? Definitely not? Okay then. It's rape-ish.

Well played. I'm honestly nonplussed.

#20 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

Yeah...seriously, I'm a little horrified by the suggestion that this is even remotely a cool or commendable thing. So, what, Dick used Barbara to relieve his "sexual tension"? He treated her like an object rather than a person with feelings attached? How is that "well played?"

No, it wasn't rape, but consider: Had he told her about the engagement when he arrived, would she have consented to having sex with him? Definitely not? Okay then. It's rape-ish.

Well played. I'm honestly nonplussed.

The easiest way to play this is by putting yourself in either Kori's or Gordon's position. Not matter how you slice it Richard's character takes a huge hit and I wouldn't consider him the most trustworthy anymore guy either. Which is sad because he's my second favorite comic book character. But hey it's the old continuity so it's all good as of Nu52, where he and Gordon have never hooked up, iirc.

#21 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a joke. No kind of logic supports that type of reasoning. I was actually pretty upset after reading the lost year. Very out of character. Whats more upsetting is I actually think Marv Wolfman wrote that scene.

#22 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@akbogert said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

Yeah...seriously, I'm a little horrified by the suggestion that this is even remotely a cool or commendable thing. So, what, Dick used Barbara to relieve his "sexual tension"? He treated her like an object rather than a person with feelings attached? How is that "well played?"

No, it wasn't rape, but consider: Had he told her about the engagement when he arrived, would she have consented to having sex with him? Definitely not? Okay then. It's rape-ish.

Well played. I'm honestly nonplussed.

The easiest way to play this is by putting yourself in either Kori's or Gordon's position. Not matter how you slice it Richard's character takes a huge hit and I wouldn't consider him the most trustworthy anymore guy either. Which is sad because he's my second favorite comic book character. But hey it's the old continuity so it's all good as of Nu52, where he and Gordon have never hooked up, iirc.

I think it was just bad writing. Dick has a reputation for sleeping around but I'd hardly call him a manwhore. Certainly not the way you would Hal Jordan, Johnny Storm, James Bond etc

#23 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@akbogert said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

Yeah...seriously, I'm a little horrified by the suggestion that this is even remotely a cool or commendable thing. So, what, Dick used Barbara to relieve his "sexual tension"? He treated her like an object rather than a person with feelings attached? How is that "well played?"

No, it wasn't rape, but consider: Had he told her about the engagement when he arrived, would she have consented to having sex with him? Definitely not? Okay then. It's rape-ish.

Well played. I'm honestly nonplussed.

The easiest way to play this is by putting yourself in either Kori's or Gordon's position. Not matter how you slice it Richard's character takes a huge hit and I wouldn't consider him the most trustworthy anymore guy either. Which is sad because he's my second favorite comic book character. But hey it's the old continuity so it's all good as of Nu52, where he and Gordon have never hooked up, iirc.

I think it was just bad writing. Dick has a reputation for sleeping around but I'd hardly call him a manwhore. Certainly not the way you would Hal Jordan, Johnny Storm, James Bond etc

It is bad writing, but Dick is sort of a manwhore. I don't see a problem with manwhoring if you're honest that all you want is sex from the other person, but cheating on your significant other (especially when engaged) is unacceptable. Also he should have made a better attempt to control himself with Gordon, especially given their past. He's Dick Grayson women are going to throw themselves at you, pick and choose your spots!

#24 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher Dude that's something straight out of a romance movie. Now I want to read it what is the name of the story?

Nightwing The Lost Year Trade paperback

@akbogert said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@SmoothJammin said:

U guys out there wouldn't do the same? They're like hs sweethearts.. he might have gone on and gotten married but that doesn't mean the feelings(sexual tension in this case)cease to exist between an old flame. Well played, dick..

Of course not... Um you're engaged to be married, you're not suppose to go around sleeping with other women at that point.

Yeah...seriously, I'm a little horrified by the suggestion that this is even remotely a cool or commendable thing. So, what, Dick used Barbara to relieve his "sexual tension"? He treated her like an object rather than a person with feelings attached? How is that "well played?"

No, it wasn't rape, but consider: Had he told her about the engagement when he arrived, would she have consented to having sex with him? Definitely not? Okay then. It's rape-ish.

Well played. I'm honestly nonplussed.

I disagree, as it's very clear he was trying to tell her before SHE kissed him and then he became caught up in the good feelings that come from physical pleasure. Doesn't excuse it, but it's not similar to rape in any way, especially given the fact that both we're emotionally and physically scarred at the time.

#25 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

I disagree, as it's very clear he was trying to tell her before SHE kissed him and then he became caught up in the good feelings that come from physical pleasure. Doesn't excuse it, but it's not similar to rape in any way, especially given the fact that both we're emotionally and physically scarred at the time.

Yeah he didn't rape her, that is obvious but I'm not a fan with the way he handled it. There is no excuse for cheating.

#26 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I did not say he raped her, but I don't think there's a proper word for what he did. Manipulating a person into having sex with you when you're well aware that they would not want to if they had all the information is simply despicable. And I'm sorry, but I just flat-out do not accept the "caught up in emotion" defense. A respectable person does the right thing, period. If the guy is incapable of overcoming base animal impulses, especially for the purpose of upholding his vow to his betrothed AND protecting the emotions of one of his ostensibly closest friends, then I have zero respect for him, and I shudder at the thought that anyone would.

And yeah, still beyond words at the "well played" thing. It's repulsive behavior, period.

Thank goodness for New 52 though...unless they bring it up directly, there's a possibility it never happened.

#27 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

Thank goodness for New 52 though...unless they bring it up directly, there's a possibility it never happened.

It's been stated that they have yet to become involved with each other, though Babs still has a bit of a crush on him.

#28 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Doubly so, then. Here's to hoping he doesn't turn into a manipulative slut. Because, actually, I've liked the little I've seen of him :)

#29 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yes, just what we need. A chivalrous knight turned away from hedonism, free of sin . Absolutely no reason for him to the enjoy the life of the young, free 21 year old. Jesus Christ dude, he's already slept with Raya and was well on his way to ramming Sonia in issue 16. If you want to read about holding hands? Chastity and relationships? Try n52 Teen Titans.

#30 Posted by dicksihavestudied (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, Nightwing Annual 2. The worst ret-con ever. I find it to have been completely out of character and choose to ignore it. I realize that Dick has had sex with a fair number of women, but he would never cheat on someone! Even when he had that fling with Helena he was respectful.

I think that Annual was misguided. The Nightwing series was exceedingly Bat-centric and really downplayed the importance of the Titans in Dick's life. That whole series really seemed to brush his relationship with Starfire under the rug. Even Nightwing: Year One downplayed the Teen Titans and reduced Kory to a "spice girl." The annual was trying to prove that Dick and Babs were destined to be together (it came out right around the time they were engaged), and it just made Dick look like a dick. Real people can have more than one serious, meaningful relationship. Dick and Barbara didn't have to be star-crossed lovers finally getting together. Kory was never in the way - why write an annual that made it look like she had been? Jason Bard was never treated like that.

#31 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

I disagree, as it's very clear he was trying to tell her before SHE kissed him and then he became caught up in the good feelings that come from physical pleasure. Doesn't excuse it, but it's not similar to rape in any way, especially given the fact that both we're emotionally and physically scarred at the time.

Yeah he didn't rape her, that is obvious but I'm not a fan with the way he handled it. There is no excuse for cheating.

And I didn't say there was an excuse, i'm simply pointing out that cheating and rape are two completely different things and what happened should in no way be called rapish by any means.@akbogert said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I did not say he raped her, but I don't think there's a proper word for what he did. Manipulating a person into having sex with you when you're well aware that they would not want to if they had all the information is simply despicable. And I'm sorry, but I just flat-out do not accept the "caught up in emotion" defense. A respectable person does the right thing, period. If the guy is incapable of overcoming base animal impulses, especially for the purpose of upholding his vow to his betrothed AND protecting the emotions of one of his ostensibly closest friends, then I have zero respect for him, and I shudder at the thought that anyone would.

And yeah, still beyond words at the "well played" thing. It's repulsive behavior, period.

Thank goodness for New 52 though...unless they bring it up directly, there's a possibility it never happened.

How did he manipulate her when she threw herself at him and he was attempting to tell her about the wedding as soon as he got there? You don't respect him that's fine, but to compare it to rape is even worse as far as i'm concerned as that's truly a terrible act which he didn't take part in.There's a completely proper explanation for what went on, it's called describing the facts. He went over to see Barbara after getting back from Tamaran, tried to explain he was getting married as well as comfort her, she came onto him, and he then proceeded to sleep with her. That's literally all that happened. There was no manipulation at all. Dick didn't force Barbara to do anything, and she didn't force him.

@dicksihavestudied said:

Ugh, Nightwing Annual 2. The worst ret-con ever. I find it to have been completely out of character and choose to ignore it. I realize that Dick has had sex with a fair number of women, but he would never cheat on someone! Even when he had that fling with Helena he was respectful.

I think that Annual was misguided. The Nightwing series was exceedingly Bat-centric and really downplayed the importance of the Titans in Dick's life. That whole series really seemed to brush his relationship with Starfire under the rug. Even Nightwing: Year One downplayed the Teen Titans and reduced Kory to a "spice girl." The annual was trying to prove that Dick and Babs were destined to be together (it came out right around the time they were engaged), and it just made Dick look like a dick. Real people can have more than one serious, meaningful relationship. Dick and Barbara didn't have to be star-crossed lovers finally getting together. Kory was never in the way - why write an annual that made it look like she had been? Jason Bard was never treated like that.

Pretty much, which is why we ended up having the problem of a bunch of people acting like Dick and Barbara had been together at any point before his series.

#32 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Look, unless you're making the argument that Babs raped him, then you have no argument here. He willingly misled her, could have stopped her but didn't, and like I said: with a fiancee to be faithful to and the respect he ought to have had for his "friend," he absolutely should not have let the sex happen. I'll accept that rape is a different animal altogether, but I really, really don't at all agree that there was any way to defend his actions whatsoever.

#33 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Look, unless you're making the argument that Babs raped him, then you have no argument here. He willingly misled her, could have stopped her but didn't, and like I said: with a fiancee to be faithful to and the respect he ought to have had for his "friend," he absolutely should not have let the sex happen. I'll accept that rape is a different animal altogether, but I really, really don't at all agree that there was any way to defend his actions whatsoever.

And as i've kept pointing out i'm not attempting to defend his actions. I agree with you on that. What he did was wrong. However, he certainly didn't manipulate her. That's painting the entire incident in a different light altogether, and is pretty much the same as saying he raped her, when we both agree he didn't. It's a fact that Dick did attempt to tell her about the wedding. Does that make it ok that he slept with her? Of course not! But it doesn't make it as bad as if he'd gone in there, said nothing, pushed her down to the mattress and had sex with her. It's a fact that Barbara made the first move. Does that make it ok? Not in the slightest, but it does show that she was consenting to the act, and that it indeed wasn't rape. I fail to see any point where Dick misled her. That implies he intentionally deceived her, which isn't the case because as i've pointed out her clearly went there with no plan of sleeping with her, but to see how she was doing and then tell her about him getting married. The only thing he's at fault for his not being strong enough to push her away. And while I am, to be 100% clear, admitting he is at fault for that, it's still not as bad at it could've been, because as I already pointed out Barbara herself was vulnerable, both physically and emotionally, and Dick wasn't in the best shape at the time either. He'd literally just gone through a war on the other side of the universe, and was also neither in the best shape physically or emotionally as this was also at the end of a long period where he lost numerous friends and was being pulled between both the Titans and Gotham. Does any of this excuse what happened? No. But it again does create a different view of the situation when you look at the situation from every angle.

#34 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I don't think we'll come to a true agreement on the extent to which this was bad, but that may be due to worldview differences that go well beyond the scope of this particular issue so it'd be a little silly to go back and forth over it. I find the concept of an engaged man having sex with someone else too exceedingly wretched to seek exculpation for it.

That said, I think the most useful point would be that you said "It doesn't make it as bad as [it could have been]," and I'll agree; the difference is that I still think it was atrocious.

#35 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I don't think we'll come to a true agreement on the extent to which this was bad, but that may be due to worldview differences that go well beyond the scope of this particular issue so it'd be a little silly to go back and forth over it. I find the concept of an engaged man having sex with someone else too exceedingly wretched to seek exculpation for it.

That said, I think the most useful point would be that you said "It doesn't make it as bad as [it could have been]," and I'll agree; the difference is that I still think it was atrocious.

There's actually no difference then, because i've never been saying the action wasn't wrong. Simply that it certainly wasn't rape, and that it again isn't nearly as bad as it could've been if Dick or both characters involved had been at their best. The action was still wrong as it was an engaged man cheating on his fiance.

#36 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

...Simply that it certainly wasn't rape...

@akbogert said:

I'll accept that rape is a different animal altogether...

Well hey, then why am I still arguing with you? Haha. I guess because I don't want to cut Dick any slack at all. But then, it sounds like most people feel that was less him and more the writer of the annual, in which case it's just awkward all around. As one who has tried arguing with people who hate X-23 based on one particular writer's portrayal of her by saying the character is better than what a writer has him/her do, I suppose I owe Dick the benefit of the doubt here.

#37 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

Yeah he didn't rape her, that is obvious but I'm not a fan with the way he handled it. There is no excuse for cheating.

And I didn't say there was an excuse, i'm simply pointing out that cheating and rape are two completely different things and what happened should in no way be called rapish by any means.

Ah okay I see where another poster claimed it was rapish... what does that even mean? Either it's consensual or it's not...

#38 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime: As I said, rape wasn't the right word. But violate is.

Consent without understanding of circumstances can hardly be considered true and proper consent. Before you sign the EULA you're given a chance to see what you're agreeing to. Babs never got that chance. I doubt anyone believes that she would have had sex with him if she'd known he was engaged. She deserved that information, and didn't get it. He violated her, plain and simple.

Violate, v. [trans.]

Fail to respect (someone's peace, privacy, or rights)

Treat (something sacred) with irreverence or disrespect

Rape is actually a fourth definition of violate, so I guess that's why I said rape-ish. Because it's a form of violation. Should have said violation instead though.

#39 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

As I said, rape wasn't the right word. But violate is.

I disagree with that phrasing as well.

Consent without understanding of circumstances can hardly be considered true and proper consent. Before you sign the EULA you're given a chance to see what you're agreeing to. Babs never got that chance. I doubt anyone believes that she would have had sex with him if she'd known he was engaged. She deserved that information, and didn't get it. He violated her, plain and simple.

Perhaps next time she'll let the guy finish talking before she throws herself on him. He was trying to tell her but she stuffed her tongue down his throat. It's kind of hard to talk with a second tongue in your mouth...He's a moron for not being a stronger person in that situation, however she is responsible for her actions.

Her lack of self control when he was trying to talk to her resulted in any "violation" that you feel occurred. Am I disappointed that one of my favorite characters also lacked self control? Absolutely, but he isn't the only one with that issue in this scene... not to mention he wasn't even the initiator.

It was poor writing and it was distasteful, but that's about it.

#40 Posted by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio
@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@akbogert said:

As I said, rape wasn't the right word. But violate is.

I disagree with that phrasing as well.

Consent without understanding of circumstances can hardly be considered true and proper consent. Before you sign the EULA you're given a chance to see what you're agreeing to. Babs never got that chance. I doubt anyone believes that she would have had sex with him if she'd known he was engaged. She deserved that information, and didn't get it. He violated her, plain and simple.

Perhaps next time she'll let the guy finish talking before she throws herself on him. He was trying to tell her but she stuffed her tongue down his throat. It's kind of hard to talk with a second tongue in your mouth...He's a moron for not being a stronger person in that situation, however she is responsible for her actions.

Her lack of self control when he was trying to talk to her resulted in any "violation" that you feel occurred. Am I disappointed that one of my favorite characters also lacked self control? Absolutely, but he isn't the only one with that issue in this scene... not to mention he wasn't even the initiator.

It was poor writing and it was distasteful, but that's about it.

I agree.
#41 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

@akbogert said:

As I said, rape wasn't the right word. But violate is.

I disagree with that phrasing as well.

Consent without understanding of circumstances can hardly be considered true and proper consent. Before you sign the EULA you're given a chance to see what you're agreeing to. Babs never got that chance. I doubt anyone believes that she would have had sex with him if she'd known he was engaged. She deserved that information, and didn't get it. He violated her, plain and simple.

Perhaps next time she'll let the guy finish talking before she throws herself on him. He was trying to tell her but she stuffed her tongue down his throat. It's kind of hard to talk with a second tongue in your mouth...He's a moron for not being a stronger person in that situation, however she is responsible for her actions.

Her lack of self control when he was trying to talk to her resulted in any "violation" that you feel occurred. Am I disappointed that one of my favorite characters also lacked self control? Absolutely, but he isn't the only one with that issue in this scene... not to mention he wasn't even the initiator.

It was poor writing and it was distasteful, but that's about it.

I agree.

I think it's safe to say that pursuing this particular discussion will benefit no one, as it seems our views are simply irreconcilable. I 100% stand by referring to what he did as violation based on the definition I quoted -- treating his engagement (something sacred) with irreverence, and failing to respect Barbara's rights (to know he was no longer "on the market"). If you disagree with that phrasing, so be it, but I think that's precisely what he did. As I said earlier, unless you are trying to make the case that Barbara raped him, there's no substance to the argument that she prevented him from telling her the truth. He willingly had sex with her knowing both that he should not be doing so (due to the engagement) and that, given the situation, she would not want to be doing so (also due to the engagement). Her behavior makes sense because she sees him as a great friend who has been through a lot and getting together will make them both feel good. I think too highly of Babs to believe she would have refused to stop had he made any real effort to say wait, no, stop, we can't do this.

Anyhow, as I said at the start, there's no gain to be made from arguing over this because I'm quite entrenched in that position. I'm fine with saying "it shouldn't have happened" and that it was "bad writing," but those are not the same as trying to make excuses for a deplorable act that, yes, violated two women. If you see it otherwise, that's your prerogative, and we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

#42 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@Goldenboy_Prime said:

It was poor writing and it was distasteful, but that's about it.

This is basically it. Neither character is at their best in this situation, and at the end of it no reader was satisfied.

#43 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Yeah, I think we're all agreed on this. I just am having trouble with people saying it's bad writing "but..." and then trying to defend what should never have happened. If we're all agreed that this was a fluke and a completely terrible one at that, it shouldn't matter whether it was "as bad as" one thing or another.

OP's question was whether Dick raped Barbara. Answer: no. End of thread? Sounds like it :)

#44 Posted by Goldenboy_Prime (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert:

I think it's safe to say that pursuing this particular discussion will benefit no one, as it seems our views are simply irreconcilable.

See I would have been fine with you leaving it at this. I probably would say alright and being done with it, but then you tacked on all this… stuff:

I 100% stand by referring to what he did as violation based on the definition I quoted -- treating his engagement (something sacred) with irreverence, …

This is the beginning of you telling me you don’t understand, and want to continue the dialogue. First, him potentially violating his engagement to Kori has nothing to do with Gordon; and whether or not they‘re sacred is clearly subjective.

…failing to respect Barbara's rights (to know he was no longer "on the market").

Gordon’s rights? He didn’t violate them. If we’re looking at the same scene she is clearly the initiator. So how did he violate her rights? He knocks on the door (or says “knock knock”). Brief dialogue between the two and he hugs her. Then it looks like he’s about to tell her, but she kisses and hushes (“sshhhhhh”) him. Grayson is apparently thinking with his little Grayson and not his head, so [like a dolt] he doesn’t resist her advances.

As I said earlier, unless you are trying to make the case that Barbara raped him, there's no substance to the argument that she prevented him from telling her the truth.

Nobody but you and the OP brought up rape, so as far as I can tell nobody else is stating she did… Probably because he complied…

He willingly had sex with her knowing both that he should not be doing so (due to the engagement) and that, given the situation, she would not want to be doing so (also due to the engagement).

You keep forgetting the part where she also willingly had sex with him, heck she was the initiator. She didn’t think anything he had to say was worth the wait, hence why she hushed him.

See we don’t actually know that she wouldn't do so. I’m sure before this scene nobody thought anything like this would have happened between them. Again if he and Kori were in an open relationship it would be fine, as far as their relationship was concerned. [I’m pretty sure they weren’t but I’ll say this every time you bring it up. Once been accounted for it’s no longer necessary to continually bring up]

Her behavior makes sense because she sees him as a great friend who has been through a lot and getting together will make them both feel good.

So basically she’s not responsible for her actions? That’s what I'm getting from you, as you’re attempting to shift the entire burden on him. If they’re such good friends why doesn’t she at least know that he’s in a relationship with Kori? It’s not like he was hiding it from his friends in the Superhero community.

I think too highly of Babs to believe she would have refused to stop had he made any real effort to say wait, no, stop, we can't do this.

Ah, and that bias is what breakdowns the dialogue. She’s a fictional character bro; she’s subject to the whims of writers and editors, not a real person. She’ll do anything the writer says she did; this scene should be evidence of that.

Just curious but, are you aware if this situation was reversed that some people would have said he potentially raped her? I mean that is what the “Ask first” movement in the US and Canada is about, preventing “awkward” situations like this and much worse from happening. So technically, there could be a legitimate argument made that she may have raped him since she never asked him for consent. However, that’s not my argument, so I won’t make it.

Anyhow, as I said at the start, there's no gain to be made from arguing over this because I'm quite entrenched in that position. I'm fine with saying "it shouldn't have happened" and that it was "bad writing," but those are not the same as trying to make excuses for a deplorable act that, yes, violated two women. If you see it otherwise, that's your prerogative, and we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You probably should have left it at that. Also there is nothing I have more contempt for than cheating. If he and Kori weren’t in an open relationship, then he has some explaining to do [to Kori] Gordon was just as responsible for the situation in question as Dick was, and again it could be argued she is more so since she didn’t ask for consent. She’s a big [fictional] girl, I’m sure she doesn’t mind being held accountable for her actions, but if she does that’s too bad. I mean did she have a reason to think he and Kori broke up? Again their relationship wasn’t a secret from their closest friends, what’s Gordon’s excuse? Or was her issue the engagement more so than the fact that he was in a relationship?

In any case this isn’t worth anymore of my time, and I won’t be responsive to this thread.

#45 Posted by End_Boss (737 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude, Nightwing's an asshole. Who goes to see their freshly crippled ex, bangs them and then tells them he's marrying someone else?

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