@aahz said:
@jayaaerow said:
Agreed. Back when I made this thread, I was peeved at the fact that in order to differentiate, it seemed they reduced Dick to being somewhat of a "jock" to justify a difference. But then DC themselves say Dick is second to Batman in detective ability and not Tim but then again, given how Grayson has been written all over the place It's coming down to the writer.
But this "Dick is second to Batman in detective ability" comes afaik from some Enceclypedia, and thats imopinion not such a great source since the guy how wrote it was not necessary an expert for this character and in this books they have often somehow to squeeze years of charcter development and lots of differnts takes on the charcter in one short parapraph.
@jayaaerow said:
He's called "The Acrobat" when his true skills lies in his ability to read people (and leadership overall). Pre-52, this was contributing to why he was such a good team player and leader. New 52, I guess it can be something and I like how it's been played with him in terms of him now being a superspy and using it to manipulate.
I honestly can't recall that he ever used his people reading ability in the pre flashpoint comics. And in never found his leadership abilities really convincing in the comics. I mean other charters said all the time that he was a great leader, but you never really portrait like this (at leat not in the original or new Teen Titans, i don't know about the later incarnations).
@jayaaerow said:
True. They made him much more intellectual in comparison to Pre-52's Tim but I feel it took the magic off of Tim a bit since he represented the actual normal Robin that, while was great at observation, did not inheritedly have skills that made him being Robin easy until he had training. Dick was an acrobat, Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills, and Damian was an assassin.
Depends how you compare the Tims. At the beginning of their career there is a huge difference between pre-52 and new 52 Tim. But the difference between new 52 Tim and the pre-52 Tim at the end of the old continuity is not that big.
@jayaaerow said:
YJ made sense to me because in that frame, he was being trained and was Robin for a year or two at most so what do you expect? And this was before New 52's "5 years of training" = "Batman-level person" or something like that XD You couldn't expect him to look like he could equal Nightwing just yet. Nightwing had years of training in comparison.
But he didn't even look like could equal Dicks robin from the first season. And it was the same with Barbara, how is in the comics usually much better then Dick when it comes to computers.
@jayaaerow said:
Jason was a street urchin so he had SOMETHING of thief skills
Jason was also quite a good fighter in his first appearance (even if it wasn't explained why). And btw. there were actually a lot of comics (including A death in the Family) where it is said that he was intelligent and talented as Dick.
Disagree on a few points, the main one being Dick Grayson's leadership abilities. I'd say those were HEAVILY focused on Pre-Flashpoint, which made their absence Post-Flashpoint all the more hard to swallow. Not only do you have Dick serving as the leader of various iterations of the Teen Titans, but 2 versions of the Justice League, and the Outsiders. Then, those stories where he lead, are actually all chronicled. You just have to read them to see how he actually operates as a leader. You therefore have people commenting on how good a leader he is, evidence of this when you read about him leading, and slightly further evidence whenever you read stories that show how deep the relationships he's formed with other heroes goes, because being a team player goes hand in hand with being a great team leader. In pretty much any story they work with after Dick's become Nightwing its noted, usually by Bruce, how easy it still is for them to work together years later. And outside of Bruce he's probably (Again, Pre-Flashpoint) worked with the members of the New Teen Titans the most, so you see a similar effect whenever he's around the likes of Donna, Wally, and Roy. You then have him forming working and personal relationships with both Tim Drake and Damian Wayne, both of whom you also have him mentoring a bit and helping to hone their own abilities, based off his numerous years of experience. Honestly, i'm not sure what more you really need on this front.
When you then start to think of intelligence and detective ability it really just falls down to a classic Robin matchup. Out of all of them, I personally thought that Tim's intelligence was always emphasized more than any other ability he had. He didn't have the natural athleticism of Dick or the brutality of Jason to back him up. He was just a normal kid, who'd lived a normal life, but had a natural aptitude for detective work. I think its generaly treated as Tim Drake being the better detective of the two, but if we're talking a top 10 list of the DCU as a whole than Dick is also on that list, right alongside Bruce and Tim. As I pointed out in my above post over a year ago, Dick's the one who has (Pre-Flashpint anyways) the feat of sitting on a couch, eating a bowl of cereal, and solving cases from the America's Most Wanted list, and Barbara notes that he's solved four that morning. Am I implying that neither Bruce or Tim could do the same? Not at all. I'm just putting it forth as a very real and credible piece of evidence for Dick Grayson's detective skills. When you then speak of intelligence in the field, plain and simple Tim just never comes off as being better than Dick, or very much of a genius in that area. They've both been trained by the best and are able to think up solid plans and tactics.
I really think though that it's a similar problem to the one that pops up between Nightwing and Batman. Both are incredibly skilled, but not the same person. Therefore, whenever they're together many writers will emphasize a certain trait in order to distinguish the two more clearly. I think that Dick and Tim are the same way, because of all the Robin's they're the most alike in my opinion. It's therefore not as big an issue in terms of Damian or Jason.
In terms of Young Justice, I don't necessarily think that either Tim or Barbara are portrayed as being incompetent. For Tim it's the fact that he is clearly fairly new at this. The beginning of season 2 really comes off as one of his first major missions, and his first major mission working away from either Batman or Nightwing. You then have the fact that Robin as a character isn't focused on as much in Season 2. There's a much larger cast now, including the original team, so he really has to split his screentime. This same issue applies to Batgirl, who i'll be honest, I barely remember appearing at all. And taking the "Newbie" aspect into account again, neither Tim Drake or Barbara Gordon were portrayed as being anything special when they first appeared in comics. Barbara's talent with computers only came into play once she became Oracle and therefore started learning and utilizing her skills in different ways. (Her current series in fact is a good example. She's computer savvy, but nowhere near as good as she was when she was Oracle.) And the same applies to Tim for the most part. So the show really just does a good job of portraying the sheer gap between them and Dick in terms of ability, and probably the same between Tim and Jason considering that the latter still died again in this verse. It's just a matter of the time when season 2 is taking place for all these people. Heck, look at Batman the Animated Series. In the first 3 seasons Batgirl had 2 appearances, neither of which portrayed her as being very competent, and nothing compared to either Batman or Robin. Flashforward to the 4th season, where a timeskip of a few years, during which Dick became Nightwing, has taken place and she's now Batman's main partner since Dick left, and is overall seen as being a far better crimefighter.
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