@Green Skin: 
It's because I read Batman books that I know it's not a mantle. Three of your examples were by Morrison, and the ending of the story with Jean Paul Valley was all about confirming the fact that there was only one true Batman (assuming you actually read Knightfall instead of just looking it up on a wiki). So the only example outdside of Morrison that you have is Tim Drake in the Teen Titans and Terry in Batman Beyond. And even in Batman Beyond it is hinted many times that Terry is not Batman, just a youthful body for Bruce to use (confirmation being that the entire time Bruce is talking in his ear telling him his every move, and that evidence was recently found to prove Terry actually shares Bruce's DNA.). So ultimately the only non Morrison evidence anyone really has to prove it is just a mantle instead of a tortured man's dark weapon against crime is Tim's future, which no other writers seem to acknowledge as canon.

 

Dude it's not a mantle get over it. However, like I said before it is occasionally fun to watch Dick play dress up. I used to pretend to be Batman when I was younger as well.

@batman_is_god said:

@Green Skin: 
It's because I read Batman books that I know it's not a mantle. Three of your examples were by Morrison, and the ending of the story with Jean Paul Valley was all about confirming the fact that there was only one true Batman (assuming you actually read Knightfall instead of just looking it up on a wiki). So the only example outdside of Morrison that you have is Tim Drake in the Teen Titans and Terry in Batman Beyond. And even in Batman Beyond it is hinted many times that Terry is not Batman, just a youthful body for Bruce to use (confirmation being that the entire time Bruce is talking in his ear telling him his every move, and that evidence was recently found to prove Terry actually shares Bruce's DNA.). So ultimately the only non Morrison evidence anyone really has to prove it is just a mantle instead of a tortured man's dark weapon against crime is Tim's future, which no other writers seem to acknowledge as canon.

 

Dude it's not a mantle get over it. However, like I said before it is occasionally fun to watch Dick play dress up. I used to pretend to be Batman when I was younger as well.

lol

@Green Skin: 
It's because I read Batman books that I know it's not a mantle. Three of your examples were by Morrison, and the ending of the story with Jean Paul Valley was all about confirming the fact that there was only one true Batman (assuming you actually read Knightfall instead of just looking it up on a wiki). So the only example outdside of Morrison that you have is Tim Drake in the Teen Titans and Terry in Batman Beyond. And even in Batman Beyond it is hinted many times that Terry is not Batman, just a youthful body for Bruce to use (confirmation being that the entire time Bruce is talking in his ear telling him his every move, and that evidence was recently found to prove Terry actually shares Bruce's DNA.). So ultimately the only non Morrison evidence anyone really has to prove it is just a mantle instead of a tortured man's dark weapon against crime is Tim's future, which no other writers seem to acknowledge as canon.

 

Dude it's not a mantle get over it. However, like I said before it is occasionally fun to watch Dick play dress up. I used to pretend to be Batman when I was younger as well.

@VampireSelektor: You're forgetting that unlike Superman/Wonder Woman/Aquaman/etc.. Bruce Wayne devotes himself completely to Batman. Batman isn't just a mask, or an origin, it's the complete surrendering of one's self to an idea that is ultimately fruitless. To know that what you're doing doesn't matter, but that you continue you to do it because you must, because you're the only one who can. It's about losing your humanity in order to feed a lonely demon that is an unrewarding cancer of the self. Batman isn't about a kid watching his parents die, or a Bat crashing through a window, it's the story of a man who chose to make himself into a monster; to forego any sense of happiness or normalcy, and face the nightmares of the world's consciousness. Dick Grayson is not Batman because, when he takes off that mask and costume, when he lies in bed next to some random girl; he's Dick Grayson. He's not torturing himself, he's not going over a million different variables in his head to combat the next unknowable threat; he's not Batman.

Now thats not fair FTBB, he tortures himself..."hmmmmm, Do i sleep with the Redhead in the wheelchar whom im supposed to be engaged to, or do i sleep with the Redhead with the  boiling hatred for clothing whom i was also engaged to at one time"  that seems the a pretty painful decision to me

@daredevil21134 said:

@batman_is_god said:

@Green Skin: 
It's because I read Batman books that I know it's not a mantle. Three of your examples were by Morrison, and the ending of the story with Jean Paul Valley was all about confirming the fact that there was only one true Batman (assuming you actually read Knightfall instead of just looking it up on a wiki). So the only example outdside of Morrison that you have is Tim Drake in the Teen Titans and Terry in Batman Beyond. And even in Batman Beyond it is hinted many times that Terry is not Batman, just a youthful body for Bruce to use (confirmation being that the entire time Bruce is talking in his ear telling him his every move, and that evidence was recently found to prove Terry actually shares Bruce's DNA.). So ultimately the only non Morrison evidence anyone really has to prove it is just a mantle instead of a tortured man's dark weapon against crime is Tim's future, which no other writers seem to acknowledge as canon.

 

Dude it's not a mantle get over it. However, like I said before it is occasionally fun to watch Dick play dress up. I used to pretend to be Batman when I was younger as well.

lol

stop that

"Identity Crisis for Dick"(never say that again)  :Dgoes into my top ten, unintentionally funny thread titles.

@batman_is_god:  Grayson has accomplished more than enough feats to escape the shadow of the Bat. 

@VampireSelektor said:

@batman_is_god:  Grayson has accomplished more than enough feats to escape the shadow of the Bat. 

No he hasn't.

@Vance Astro said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@batman_is_god:  Grayson has accomplished more than enough feats to escape the shadow of the Bat. 

No he hasn't.

Yes he has lol.He raised Damian Bruce could'nt raise Jason.

@batman_is_god said:

@Green Skin: And what exactly makes Batman a mantle?

Really !?! You've got to be kidding me. Maybe the fact that the writers, fans, characters, and Bruce Wayne all call it a mantle!

@VampireSelektor: 
Nicely said.

@batman_is_god said:

@VampireSelektor: 
Batman is an identity created by Bruce Wayne. Think about the fact that it is Batman, not intellectual brooding man. Spider-Man is Spider-Man because he has Spider powers, and most heroes are named similiarly. The name and costume have a personal meaning to Bruce that it does not have (no matter how much evidence you provide to the contrary) to anyone else. Batman is a weapon born of Bruce Wayne's torment to fight crime, and many will argue is his true persona. It's not something that can just be handed around. Mr. Terrific would be every bit the impostor as Dick is, although he would be far more convincing as Batman's replacement (with the exception of the black skin showing through the mask).

 

Plus, even if it were another hero whose costume did not have the imortance to them that Batman's did, it's kinda stupid when costumes are passed around. Dick wants to escape Batman's shadow so he... dresses like Batman? Colossal fail.

You think Mr. Terrific would be mor econvincing bc he is more intelligent and brooding or what?

Also if you remember Dick didnt want to take on the Mantle. He refuse and only took it on bc Jason started dressing like him and killing people. Also the villains needed to see that Batman wasnt dead. Yes he was acting like Bruces version at first but quickly changed to his own version to better himself. Also once Bruce return he told Dick to stay on as Batman of Gotham. He realized (as well as you should) that the Persona of Batman is larger than Bruce.

Do you think Dick should take on a persona that uses his fear against his enemy?

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

 

but batman isnt a company, its an identity.

Sure seems like Batman is a company considering it's all about Batman Inc. now. Batman is a costume protrayed by a man. Just as that Daxamite took over as Superman. He still did it his own way.

@batman_is_god said:

 

Just because one is experienced does not mean you act like Batman. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman all manage to be experienced without acting like or pretending to be one another. And there is no such thing as "Being Batman in your own way". There is Being Bruce Wayne, then there is not being Batman.

Like I said, Dick pretending to be Batman is cute every now and then, but it's not as great as Batman haters like you and Primmaster make it out to be.

 

As to your company metaphor, Dick is more like the annoying son that spills coffee on the industrial sketches then the new CEO.

When you are trained by someone you tend to pick up their traits. So yes being trained by Bruce the majority of his life would make him act more like the way Bruce acts. All the people you just named were never shown to follow a solitary hero around learning from them their whole life. And of course there is such thing as "being batman your own way". That like saying two first basemen play the same position the exact same way. "There is being Bruce Wayne, then there is not being Batman" doesn't make any sense to this argument.

Also i never said i hate Batman. Actually i like him. I think he is a great character. a little over rated but still deserves the respect he has gained over the his life time. Sounds more like you just hate Dick Grayson.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@batman_is_god:  Grayson has accomplished more than enough feats to escape the shadow of the Bat. 

No he hasn't.

Yes he has lol.He raised Damian Bruce could'nt raise Jason.

He didn't raise Damian. He's been with him less than a year. And Bruce raised Dick. And if you were to argue that Dick put Damian on the straight and narrow, then the same could be said for Bruce and Cassandra.

Seems like they're alot of Grayson fans that like him in the cowl

Magnectic ass?Ok

If people dont like Grayson as Batman what do you think should be done with him? He should not be demoted back to Nightwing. 

@spiderbat87: 
I know what should be done with him, but i have this paranoia that if I say my prediction out loud they will never come true. I will say he should not be Batman, and it would not be a problem for him to go back to nightwing but after all this I can see why people would think it would be. I think a new title would be best.

I don't mean inheriting another mantle, since I think that's just stupid in general, let alone when it is a character like Batman. A whole new identity. One that pays homage to him personally like Batman does to Bruce. Which is why why favorite nightwing costume is the original one: it looked like something you would see in a circus.

@DEGRAAF: 
I hate Dick under the cowl, although as I have been saying it is cute to watch him play Batman every now and then. Two basemen is like being two superheroes. Two Batmen is like their being two Babe Ruths

@entropy_aegis: 
The brotherhood of the bat was not really multiple Batmen. And I don't really take anything Bill Finger wrote into consideration, seeing as he led the charge during the campy 60s which comics are still made fun of for.

@daredevil21134: many female DC character have mentioned how nice his ass is

@DEGRAAF: 
I hate Dick under the cowl, although as I have been saying it is cute to watch him play Batman every now and then. Two basemen is like being two superheroes. Two Batmen is like their being two Babe Ruths

 

@entropy_aegis: 
The brotherhood of the bat was not really multiple Batmen. And I don't really take anything Bill Finger wrote into consideration, seeing as he led the charge during the campy 60s which comics are still made fun of for.

@Green Skin: 
It's because I read Batman books that I know it's not a mantle. Three of your examples were by Morrison, and the ending of the story with Jean Paul Valley was all about confirming the fact that there was only one true Batman (assuming you actually read Knightfall instead of just looking it up on a wiki). So the only example outdside of Morrison that you have is Tim Drake in the Teen Titans and Terry in Batman Beyond. And even in Batman Beyond it is hinted many times that Terry is not Batman, just a youthful body for Bruce to use (confirmation being that the entire time Bruce is talking in his ear telling him his every move, and that evidence was recently found to prove Terry actually shares Bruce's DNA.). So ultimately the only non Morrison evidence anyone really has to prove it is just a mantle instead of a tortured man's dark weapon against crime is Tim's future, which no other writers seem to acknowledge as canon.

 

Dude it's not a mantle get over it. However, like I said before it is occasionally fun to watch Dick play dress up. I used to pretend to be Batman when I was younger as well.

@DEGRAAF: 
I hate Dick under the cowl, although as I have been saying it is cute to watch him play Batman every now and then. Two basemen is like being two superheroes. Two Batmen is like their being two Babe Ruths

 

@entropy_aegis: 
The brotherhood of the bat was not really multiple Batmen. And I don't really take anything Bill Finger wrote into consideration, seeing as he led the charge during the campy 60s which comics are still made fun of for.

not so much about there being two Babe Ruth's. You seem to think of Batman as the person He is basically a postion in the team. Batman is a Persona of someone. That like saying Obama is trying to act as Bush bc they held the same position. No that we have narrowed down your problems with mantles being passed on, tell me. Do you feel that same way about the Flashes, Mr. Terrific, Supergirl, Donna Troy (when she was Wonder Woman) or every other character that has taken over someones mantle they have trained under or looked up too?

Also according to what you said to Entropy_aegis, sounds like any proof people have it is a mantle you deny or totally ignore.

Wow this is getting really intense

 So once again, my fellow Graysonites I pose the question of whether or not the Man Wonder is indeed the embodiement of Hope? He's transcended the role of Batman IMO. Compensate this man for his selfless devotion to crimefighting in times like these when bitter fanboys never give him the time of day. Reward Nightwing with a Blue Power Ring . The cosmic stuff is where it's at, and it wouldn't stray too far from all the mystical/otherworldly experiences he encountered during his days as a Titan where he garnered much of his success. Grayson's always shined brighter than the rest of his family. Keep Dick as far away from Gotham as possible, but stick him in a strong leadership role. Leave him on the JLA where he can serve as a mediator to Bats & Supes, and maybe then we can revisit those Golden Age days where the Worlds Finest actually meant something. If Didio thinks our boy is redundant, well sales don't lie. Allow Tim to usurp the big brother role to Damian & company. Who cares.  Ppl will follow Dick wherever his journey takes him.. dump him in Bludhaven again, clean house on the metas this time with the aid of Hal Jordan and the GL's(as a means of plugging the casual fans who'll watch the movies and follow the media) Haven's kind of like a mash up of Gotham and Metropolis these days isn't it? Sounds like the perfect spot to revisit on a comeback trail..

 So once again, my fellow Graysonites I pose the question of whether or not the Man Wonder is indeed the embodiement of Hope? He's transcended the role of Batman IMO. Compensate this man for his selfless devotion to crimefighting in times like these when bitter fanboys never give him the time of day. Reward Nightwingwith a Blue Power Ring . The cosmic stuff is where it's at, and it wouldn't stray too far from all the mystical/otherworldly experiences he encountered during his days as a Titan where he garnered much of his success. Grayson's always shined brighter than the rest of his family. Keep Dick as far away from Gotham as possible, but stick him in a strong leadership role. Leave him on the JLA where he can serve as a mediator to Bats & Supes, and maybe then we can revisit those Golden Age days where the Worlds Finest actually meant something. If Didio thinks our boy is redundant, well sales don't lie. Allow Tim to usurp the big brother role to Damian & company. Who cares.  Ppl will follow Dick wherever his journey takes him.. dump him in Bludhaven again, clean house on the metas this time with the aid of Hal Jordan and the GL's(as a means of plugging the casual fans who'll watch the movies and follow the media) Haven's kind of like a mash up of Gotham and Metropolis these days isn't it? Sounds like the perfect spot to revisit on a comeback trail..

@SmoothJammin: 

I like Dick Grayson as Batman but i would be ok if they came up with a way to move Dick beyond the Batman persona and would still be considered Bruces equal.

I definitely dont want them to kill of Jason after the last issue he was in.

As for the Blue Lantern ring i would say i would like to see him use it occasionally but would prefer him to leave it in his belt pocket or at his hideout the majority of the time unless he was going against a large villain. I did kind of like the idea of a blue lantern belt.

@batman_is_god said:

@DEGRAAF: 
I hate Dick under the cowl, although as I have been saying it is cute to watch him play Batman every now and then. Two basemen is like being two superheroes. Two Batmen is like their being two Babe Ruths

 

@entropy_aegis: 
The brotherhood of the bat was not really multiple Batmen. And I don't really take anything Bill Finger wrote into consideration, seeing as he led the charge during the campy 60s which comics are still made fun of for.

not so much about there being two Babe Ruth's. You seem to think of Batman as the person He is basically a postion in the team. Batman is a Persona of someone. That like saying Obama is trying to act as Bush bc they held the same position. No that we have narrowed down your problems with mantles being passed on, tell me. Do you feel that same way about the Flashes, Mr. Terrific, Supergirl, Donna Troy (when she was Wonder Woman) or every other character that has taken over someones mantle they have trained under or looked up too?

 

Also according to what you said to Entropy_aegis, sounds like any proof people have it is a mantle you deny or totally ignore.

O___o intense thread. Here's my feelings on the matter and on Dick as Batman in general.  
 
Dick makes a good Batman, maybe even a great one. But it was never intended as a permanent position for him. THE Batman is Bruce Wayne. He's the only one who should ever hold the "mantle", in my opinion, especially considering Batman is who he actually is and Bruce Wayne is the mask he wears. Dick never wanted to be Batman, he never wanted to be Bruce. He broke away from the Bat-Family and established his own identity and life as Nightwing. The only reason that he picked up the cowl is because he knew that if he didn't, Jason Todd would and that he'd desecrate everything that the Batman name ever stood for. He was placeholding so that it couldn't be abused. That's not to say that he's not a great Batman, because he is. He's made it his own and maybe rejuvenated it a bit, but now Bruce Wayne is back from his little vacation in time and we really have no need of two Batmen. 

O___o intense thread. Here's my feelings on the matter and on Dick as Batman in general.  
 
Dick makes a good Batman, maybe even a great one. But it was never intended as a permanent position for him. THE Batman is Bruce Wayne. He's the only one who should ever hold the "mantle", in my opinion, especially considering Batman is who he actually is and Bruce Wayne is the mask he wears. Dick never wanted to be Batman, he never wanted to be Bruce. He broke away from the Bat-Family and established his own identity and life as Nightwing. The only reason that he picked up the cowl is because he knew that if he didn't, Jason Todd would and that he'd desecrate everything that the Batman name ever stood for. He was placeholding so that it couldn't be abused. That's not to say that he's not a great Batman, because he is. He's made it his own and maybe rejuvenated it a bit, but now Bruce Wayne is back from his little vacation in time and we really have no need of two Batmen. 

@VampireSelektor: 
There is no "regression" back to Nightwing. This is the main reason so much comes out of these debates. Dick Grayson was never 'promoted'. It's not like getting a promotion at work. Comic wise these guys aren't getting paid other than the satisfaction of being the heroes they become. It's a family/friend style help. When Batman disappeared, Dick wasn't thinking to himself "Oh nice! I get to be the Batman!" It's the same as if say your family owned business was left without a manager when your father was temporarily hospitalized from a car accident. When your father gets out you'd hand him back over his shop and continue about your duties around the shop as before. Now your father might look into that and give you more responsibility or a better position, but you're still who you are. And until your father dies or can no longer fulfill his duties as the manager of the store, you're not the manager so long as the shop succeeds. Batman can still fulfill his roles. He still owns the shop that is Gotham City. And he's still Dick's superior. Him taking his position back as Nightwing isn't regression, it's duty. The fact that anyone sees Batman as a promotion is PROOF that Bruce Wayne is the top dog. If Dick Grayson was better than Bruce Wayne, then people would be considering Dick Grayson's duty to hold up Bruce Wayne's phantom visage as what you call 'regression'. All this debate is just Dick Grayson fans subconsciously acknowledging that Bruce Wayne is the commander in chief of Gotham City. Rather than look at Dick Grayson's return to Nightwing as a 'demotion', we should be looking at it as a great way to expand Nightwing's role in Gotham's defense. He's got some experience now rolling with the punches Batman has to deal with, so he's ready to step it up a bit. If he's as great as a lot of people seem to think, then he should be good enough to hold up a larger role for Gotham as his OWN Superhero.  
 
I personally liked the short time Dick was Batman for the interesting story and show of loyalty for Batman he put on, but like a true Batman fan, and a TRUE Dick Grayson fan, I want Dick back with his identity and I want to see him step up to the plate. Time to see him play a bigger role in Gotham. He doesn't need to be wearing Batman's suit for that. It's a disgrace to Bruce Wayne and Dick for him to stay in Batman's cowl now that he's back. Bruce Wayne is Batman.  
 
Oh and by the by, Tim is smart and Batman acknowledges that, but he's not smarter than Batman. Batman's just got 10x the amount Tim has on his dish so Tim focuses more on the things Bruce can't while he's busy keeping Gotham from burning to the ground. :)

@Primmaster64:  Huh? Oh no, I was agreeing with you that Dick's "Identity Crisis" is a bad plot idea. 

i've said it before and i'll say it again, he should be wearing the batman beyond costume but with a blue bat

the scans 1 and 2 in the first page both depict  dick being his batman in no  way does it show a dick  trying to be like bruce and not like himself. in the fist scan you see dick  getting  facts from gordon with other police officers on the scene in the middle of the street with the news stations and one senator on the opposite side of the yellow line.Dick leaves once he gets the information and the press started shouting questions to batman and his exit is seen and recorded no mystery vanishing act thats 2-3 things bruce would never have done. as for the second scan dick is relaying the info to gordon til they reach the crime scene where his boss will take over so theres little action for him there. the next thing you see him do is smile because gordon made a joke which is 100% a non bruce move. Dick is putting his own spin into the mantle he is wearing though it wasnt his choice to do so and still isnt. BFTC  forced him to wear the mantle so that jason wouldnt tarnish what it meant, and gotham wouldnt let him save her as nightwing she needed batman and he gave her batman being the lady pleaser that he is.Once bruce returned he had intended to return the mantle and gotham back to bruce but bruce wouldnt have it so there he is force to run around in tights with a cape.Though he may not be the original batman there are few men in the world who would be able to  protect gotham like he can and has and even fewer with the amount of heroe exp. to do all the things batman does.For how long he will stay is unkown but i would like for him to go back to being nightwing and protecting another city other than gotham once inc. is over with.no blue rings or some other batnaming sounding mantle or working directly under bruce in gotham but  e willing to lend a hand when its urgent like he did during no mans land, and war games.His Nightwing persona isnt a demotion not when under that mantle hes led the titans,outsiders and the JLA as well as turning down invitations from the JLA..Even before his current gig protecting gotham he once looked over bludheaven where he got rid of a corrupted police system that was a main player in the citys underworld aswell as its only main underworld leader blockbuster.Nightwing is the persona he created and build up its his mantle equally as popular as batman in the heroe community if not more so since dick personality shines.

O___o intense thread. Here's my feelings on the matter and on Dick as Batman in general.  
 
Dick makes a good Batman, maybe even a great one. But it was never intended as a permanent position for him. THE Batman is Bruce Wayne. He's the only one who should ever hold the "mantle", in my opinion, especially considering Batman is who he actually is and Bruce Wayne is the mask he wears. Dick never wanted to be Batman, he never wanted to be Bruce. He broke away from the Bat-Family and established his own identity and life as Nightwing. The only reason that he picked up the cowl is because he knew that if he didn't, Jason Todd would and that he'd desecrate everything that the Batman name ever stood for. He was placeholding so that it couldn't be abused. That's not to say that he's not a great Batman, because he is. He's made it his own and maybe rejuvenated it a bit, but now Bruce Wayne is back from his little vacation in time and we really have no need of two Batmen. 

I guess it's only me who thinks that   Bruce Wayne - Batman Dick Grayson- Nightwing Tim Drake- Red Robin Damiane Wayne- Robin Stephine Brown- Batgirl Cassandra Cain- ??????? (She should go by a new name) Barbra Gordon- Oracle