I need help with accepting Dick as Batman

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#1 Posted by Anjales (543 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong, Dick Grayson is one of my favorite characters in DC and I absolutely loved him as Nightwing. The Battle for the Cowl is one of my favorite stories and with Bruce out of the picture, among the other candidates to become Batman, Dick seemed like the most logical choice to become the Dark Knight. 
However, it's been too long and I just can't see him as Batman anymore. I mean I loved Batman since i was a child and during this time I had always known the Bruce Wayne IS Batman and there can only be ONE Batman. When Dick first decided to become Batman he was reluctant of course but then Alfred told him to make the mantle his own. 
If Dick had used like another costume and called himself Batman I would have been okay with it but he's using the exact same costume (before Bruce returned). The only this he changed was adding a bat symbol to his belt and weapons which isn't much of a change.   
I mean, I didn't have a problem with Bucky Barnes becoming Captain America in Marvel. Sure I was annoyed a bit at first because to me Steve Rogers IS Captain America but in time Bucky grew on me. Maybe it's because Bucky travels a different path from Steve. Bucky uses a gun, a bionic arm giving him super strength and a new cool costume. Also, Bucky wearing the costume and carrying the shield has served some purpose. I mean he used to be the Winter Soldier, a cold blooded assassin who hurt a lot of people, but by becoming Captain America, he is redeeming himself and trying to do what he always wanted to do since WWII, serve his country and accomplish some good 
As for Dick, his only purpose in becoming Batman was basically to replace Bruce because Gotham still needs a Batman. I get that. I also get that Dick becoming Batman has marked a huge evolution in the character, he went from being Robin the Boy Wonder to a self-titled Nightwing to finally reach the rank of Batman. But you know, to become Batman, shouldn't he be at least a match for Bruce himself, and I think that a lot of people agree with me when I say that Dick is not on Bruce's level (yet). There's also one more thing that is bothering me about Dick is this 

 A Smiling Batman?!?     
 
  .Maybe the artist meant to have him grin or something but seriously in all over Batman's years I've rarely seen the Dark Knight smile. I'm not pessimistic or anything but for a guy who wants to strike fear in the hearts of criminals, which is kinda what Batman is all about, Dick's not gonna be so intimidating when he's SMILING! He was shown on numerous instances showing a big smile on his face. There's also the thing about his voice. I'm sure that most, if not all of you, imagine Bruce Wayne's voice in the comics being the one used in the classic animates series. Dick and Bruce have really different voices and my favorite one for Dick was Niel Patrick Harris's voice from Under the Red Hood animated movie and although it felt right for Nightwing, it really doesn't suit someone wearing a Batman costume.   
Because of this I am unable to read any story regarding Dick as Batman. As much as i love Grayson, to me he's no Batman. To make matters worse for me, Dick is the Gotham's Dark Knight while Bruce is "saving the world". I'm giving Detective Comics a chance and i'm reading the Black Mirror story which is pretty strong so far but I am unable to read the main Batman series which features Dick as Batman. 
What do you Batman fans think? Should I give Dick the same chance I gave Bucky? Did he grow on any of you? Do I make a point in not accepting Dick as Batman or am I just being obnoxious? Are Dick's stories in the main Batman series worth reading? tell me what you think! 
#2 Edited by nightwing91 (3877 posts) - - Show Bio

he smiled because he was enjoying it, and I think it worked, as him smiling would lead  the criminals to believe that batman is starting to crack and he could lose it at any second. Give Dick his chance, he works as batman just many people realize bruce is batman, dick isnt he's just wearing the costume. And dicks stories are worth checking outm trust me on his defiantly worth it.

#3 Posted by Anjales (543 posts) - - Show Bio
@nightwing91: Well if you put it that way, the smiling thing has made it less painful for me to bear. It's just that i'm not used to seeing "Batman: smiling. 
What about his voice? I mean I'm sure when you read Batman you hear Kevin Conroy's voice when Bruce is talking. When I see a Batman in front of me it's hard to imagine another voice. and Dick and Bruce's voices are very different. 
But y'know? i'll take your word for it and read the next issue of batman. Thanks!
#4 Posted by War Killer (20291 posts) - - Show Bio

I like how Dick told Bruce he should smile more in Batman: The Return....that cracked me up xD

Online
#5 Posted by entropy_aegis (15437 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly he smiled. 
LOL people think its a bad thing,but THAT IS EXACTLY what makes dick a different batman. 
and yes he should stay as batman cause writers are giving him due ,while he was obviously cool as nightwing his combat feats were not so impressive,under performing against people like todd and vigilante whom he should logically beat handily.
#6 Posted by nightwing91 (3877 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales: Might sound corny, but now you can give Dick his own voice.
#7 Posted by velle37 (6037 posts) - - Show Bio

Main problem with that pic (and the comic) is the artist. 
 
Also Dick isn't being written to his potential. 
Over the years he has been downplayed for the sake of Bruce. 
He is still a key player in the DCu though; he has the respect of everyone. 
He just needs more competent writers.
#8 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio

...I hate Quietly's art?
#9 Posted by G-Man (18881 posts) - - Show Bio

I absolutely love what Scott Snyder's doing with Grayson in Detective Comics. I've said it a couple times but that's currently my favorite Batman title.

Staff
#10 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah... Well, you have to stop thinking about Batman as a person, you have to think of him as a figure, if that makes sense?

#11 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:  I think you should give him a chance. I for one like Dick as Batman. I believe on all accounts that Dick is a better fighter than Batman. If I'm not mistaking I believe that Bruce has admitted this. Just like he has admitted that Tim is a better detective. Both his son's have learned from him each in a different way. Damian is the one that I am having a hard time warming up to. In a lot of ways he is like Jason and that bothers me. Jason is my favorite. Jason and Dick are tied in my "favorite characters list" at number one. So I am reading Teen Titans and Batman and Robin to try and warm up to Damian so far its working he brings something to the table for Robin. I just can't find the word for it. But hang in there. Dick will become the Batman he was meant to be.
#12 Posted by Jake Fury (19189 posts) - - Show Bio

Tony Daniel does him great justice in Batman.  
#13 Edited by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick is an awesome Batman.
 
@RedHoodJT:
Yeah, I think Bruce did admit it.
 
Remember Dick is trying be his own Batman.

#14 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: I totally agree with you on that. Its a great story so far. And the way that he goes about things now its like he finally has being batman down. I love it.
 
@Primmaster64: Yeah I thought so. I don't what issue its in but I remember him admitting it to Alfred. The same about Tim being a better detective than him as well. But again I don't know what issue that is either.
#15 Posted by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT: So that means Dick can probably take Bruce out?
#16 Edited by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio

My guess would be yes. But then again I've always thought that Dick was better than Bruce. Never cared for Batman/Bruce I've always liked Robin/Dick/Jason/Tim better. And that is how I know Bruce said it. Because I've been saying it for years. Lol.

#17 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Dick better because he has more personality and he's interesting. When I read Bruce Wayne I hear Bruce Greenwood's Batman voice but when I read Dick I have my own created voice. I think Damian is the best Robin because he's actually almost normal.

#18 Posted by unclesam (28 posts) - - Show Bio

Im glad they kept Dick as Gotham's Batman. I dont think I want him to stick around forever, but it is so good right now. I hope if he goes back to Nightwing he brings out his old school Nightwing suit.

#19 Posted by SmoothJammin (2348 posts) - - Show Bio

Naw he needs an upgrade after this, falling back onto NW would demote his status imo. I mean its feasible, but like I said...he'll need an edge. mwahaha(Goes and writes up new topic)

#20 Posted by Anjales (543 posts) - - Show Bio
@unclesam: @SmoothJammin: Yeah the sad part about this is that going back to Nightwing would weaken his character a lot and he was really cool as Nightwing. In order to keep the character as big as he is, is to keep him as Batman for a while. 
 @CrimsonAvenger: @nightwing91: I see your point, since Dick has evolved it would make sense that he would have a brand new voice. 
@G-Man: Me two Detective Comics has been very intense. The Impostor Wars story was really strong. 
@RedHoodJT: @Jake Fury: I'll be sure to pick up the next issue of Batman! 
But I think Bruce admitted that someday Tim and Dick will surpass him, I dont think he said they already did. I could be wrong though.
#21 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:  Bruce could have said that too. I'm not too sure. I just know it was something along those lines. Lol. And I really like the Tony Daniel story so far.
#22 Posted by entropy_aegis (15437 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
"Dick is an awesome Batman.
 
@RedHoodJT: Yeah, I think Bruce did admit it.  Remember Dick is trying be his own Batman. "

No he admitted nothing.
#23 Posted by entropy_aegis (15437 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
" @Anjales:  I think you should give him a chance. I for one like Dick as Batman. I believe on all accounts that Dick is a better fighter than Batman. If I'm not mistaking I believe that Bruce has admitted this. Just like he has admitted that Tim is a better detective. Both his son's have learned from him each in a different way. Damian is the one that I am having a hard time warming up to. In a lot of ways he is like Jason and that bothers me. Jason is my favorite. Jason and Dick are tied in my "favorite characters list" at number one. So I am reading Teen Titans and Batman and Robin to try and warm up to Damian so far its working he brings something to the table for Robin. I just can't find the word for it. But hang in there. Dick will become the Batman he was meant to be. "

Damian is jason done right.
#24 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11268 posts) - - Show Bio

 Another difference between Bruce and Dick.
#25 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  I'm gonna ignore your immature response about Damian being Jason done right. And move on to your "Bruce admitted nothing." If that is true why are more people agreeing with me that they read it in one of the issues than siding with you on that he didn't? You're just full of negativity.
#26 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Marvel:  I like Dick as Batman a HELLUVA lot better than Bruce. The mood isn't so dark and brooding. I know that its because Dick hasn't failed in the regards Bruce has (JASON) but so far I like how Batman is now.
#27 Posted by entropy_aegis (15437 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
" @entropy_aegis:  I'm gonna ignore your immature response about Damian being Jason done right. And move on to your "Bruce admitted nothing." If that is true why are more people agreeing with me that they read it in one of the issues than siding with you on that he didn't? You're just full of negativity. "

Well he IS jason done right. 
and i dont care if people agree with me or not,give me an issue number or an incontext scan.
#28 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11268 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
" @RedHoodJT said:
" @entropy_aegis:  I'm gonna ignore your immature response about Damian being Jason done right. And move on to your "Bruce admitted nothing." If that is true why are more people agreeing with me that they read it in one of the issues than siding with you on that he didn't? You're just full of negativity. "
Well he IS jason done right. and i dont care if people agree with me or not,give me an issue number or an incontext scan. "
To be honest, he is right. I do believe Damian is Jason done right. It's not an immature response at all. 
 
Plus I like Bruce as Batman more than Dick. There are a lot more characters in the Batman family I like more than Dick. I was just pointing out the differences between Bruce and Dick as Batman.
#29 Edited by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  I don't know the actual issue number or exactly how it was said. If you would've read my other posts about it I already mentioned that I didn't know. And I get where you are coming from and I apologize for my immature response. I see how people can say that Damian is Jason done right but to be honest, and fair to Jason, I don't see how one is done worse than the other. Jason acted just like Damian does when he was Robin. Over anxious and never thought about what he did. Now that Jason is back he has a plan at all times. If something goes wrong there is always a plan b or c or whatever. Damian just acts plain and simple. Damian really isn't done better or right. Just people now, because of how Jason was Robin and Damian is Bruce's son, are ok with that type of Robin in today's comics. This is my opinion. 
 
And people say that Jason hates Dick and that is a big reason why people hate Jason. What about the fact that Damian hates Tim? Everyone seems to think that its ok for Damian to hate Tim but its not ok for Jason to hate Dick. Damian tried to kill Tim at first. Did everyone forget that? I don't have Damian I actually like him I think he is pretty funny but it urks me when people say he is better than Jason. I personally think they are one in the same.
#30 Posted by daredevil21134 (12622 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
" @entropy_aegis:  I don't know the actual issue number or exactly how it was said. If you would've read my other posts about it I already mentioned that I didn't know. And I get where you are coming from and I apologize for my immature response. I see how people can say that Damian is Jason done right but to be honest, and fair to Jason, I don't see how one is done worse than the other. Jason acted just like Damian does when he was Robin. Over anxious and never thought about what he did. Now that Jason is back he has a plan at all times. If something goes wrong there is always a plan b or c or whatever. Damian just acts plain and simple. Damian really isn't done better or right. Just people now, because of how Jason was Robin and Damian is Bruce's son, are ok with that type of Robin in today's comics. "

I agree
#31 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134:  Thank you. I'm glad that someone is on my side.
#32 Posted by entropy_aegis (15437 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT said:
"@entropy_aegis:  I don't know the actual issue number or exactly how it was said. If you would've read my other posts about it I already mentioned that I didn't know. And I get where you are coming from and I apologize for my immature response. I see how people can say that Damian is Jason done right but to be honest, and fair to Jason, I don't see how one is done worse than the other. Jason acted just like Damian does when he was Robin. Over anxious and never thought about what he did. Now that Jason is back he has a plan at all times. If something goes wrong there is always a plan b or c or whatever. Damian just acts plain and simple. Damian really isn't done better or right. Just people now, because of how Jason was Robin and Damian is Bruce's son, are ok with that type of Robin in today's comics. This is my opinion.   And people say that Jason hates Dick and that is a big reason why people hate Jason. What about the fact that Damian hates Tim? Everyone seems to think that its ok for Damian to hate Tim but its not ok for Jason to hate Dick. Damian tried to kill Tim at first. Did everyone forget that? I don't have Damian I actually like him I think he is pretty funny but it urks me when people say he is better than Jason. I personally think they are one in the same. "

Except damian was immature ,he had no concept of right or wrong,jason is mature he knows what he's doing .damian also got over it,has jason?
#33 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick is Batman, Bruce is THE Batman. Big difference. Everyone knows Dick can't hold a candle to Bruce as far as being the Dark Knight goes, but he's a great crime fighter and Batman in his own right. He's just not THE Batman.

#34 Posted by Lance Uppercut (22979 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" Dick is Batman, Bruce is THE Batman. Big difference. Everyone knows Dick can't hold a candle to Bruce as far as being the Dark Knight goes, but he's a great crime fighter and Batman in his own right. He's just not THE Batman. "
Dick took it as a title. Bruce took it as a lifestyle choice. 
#35 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" Dick is Batman, Bruce is THE Batman. Big difference. Everyone knows Dick can't hold a candle to Bruce as far as being the Dark Knight goes, but he's a great crime fighter and Batman in his own right. He's just not THE Batman. "
Exactly. 
Moderator
#36 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lance Uppercut said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" Dick is Batman, Bruce is THE Batman. Big difference. Everyone knows Dick can't hold a candle to Bruce as far as being the Dark Knight goes, but he's a great crime fighter and Batman in his own right. He's just not THE Batman. "
Dick took it as a title. Bruce took it as a lifestyle choice.  "
Yep, exactly. To Dick it's just a mask, a symbol and a suit. To Bruce it's his identity.
#37 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis:  We all know that Jason hasn't gotten over it. That's what makes Jason...Jason. Damian got over it because he had Bruce and Dick mentoring him to see the wrong in his ways. Jason died and felt betrayed by Bruce because the Joker was still alive and Jason had been replaced by, in all honesty, a better Robin.
#38 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

A few thoughts here. 
 
to answer the question I say yes you should give him a chance but i understand where your coming from. 
I think the biggest issue is the suit and yes its the same suit bruce wears and yes thats a problem i can see from a story point of view he had to wear the same suit but it really makes us fans see him as a replacement batman and not a new batman. I dont think anyone has a problem with Terry as BATMAN in batman beyond no one gets upset that hes a replacement cause hes not hes the new batman. most of that is the suit the tone hecarries  and his style.  
 
Grayson is one of the best characters in DC hes a DC staple and while I do feel Bucky is a more sucessful transition from sidekick to hero Grayson means far more to DCu than bucky to marvel. I really think grayson should stay batman but ONLY because he became him to start with. I would much rather have prefered him to remain nightwing and simply RISE to the level of batman in the hero community. i thought it would be cool to see nightwing w a new suit basically replace batman in everyway and where even jokers new enemy was nightwing and not bruce. 
 
Very much how in Kingdom Come they describe red robin and taking bruces place as the big 3 on the Justice league.
#39 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@speedlgt:  That is a great point. I was hoping for a new Nightwing suit too and him just replace Batman that way but I do like how it turned out so far.
#40 Posted by DEGRAAF (7912 posts) - - Show Bio
@speedlgt said:
"I would much rather have prefered him to remain nightwing and simply RISE to the level of batman in the hero community. i thought it would be cool to see nightwing w a new suit basically replace batman in everyway and where even jokers new enemy was nightwing and not bruce. "
 
I would have been happy with this as well but i love him getting his rightful place as batman as well 
 

@Supreme Marvel said:
"
Another difference between Bruce and Dick.
"

I loved this issue. This is one of the times that made it feel like they were the real thing and things were really solidifying about the new status quo
#41 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@DEGRAAF:  What issue is that?
#42 Posted by DEGRAAF (7912 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedHoodJT: 
 
I dont remember the issue number. I believe it is after Tim is done searching for Bruce though but before he actually returns from the past
#43 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. I love the book. I only read the first two though and then made the mistake of dropping it for all the Deadpool books. But I dropped Marvel books in general like March of last year and only read DC books. So now I am trying to get all the early Red Robin books that I missed out on.

#44 Posted by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Dick as Batman

#45 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (6269 posts) - - Show Bio

He's not that bad, but Jason Todd would make a better Batman than Bruce Wayne himself!!!

#46 Posted by Anjales (543 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress: @Lance Uppercut:    @FadeToBlackBolt: That's why i was having trouble accepting Dick as Batman. I mean, Bruce comsiders Batman as his real identity while for Dick, the Batman is an Alternate Identity. This is one of the major differences between the two. Is this a good thing for the future of Batman? Isn't the Bruce Wayne/Batman identity issue a main part of the Batman's mythos? Having Dick as Batman has removed a major part of Batman's mythos.
@Supreme Marvel:
I gotta say, after seeing that scan i finally see why a lot of people like Dick as Batman as he is bringing a new direction to crime fighting by replacing the dark violent tone into a more fun one.
But you know as cool as this new tone is, when you think about Batman you always expect a dark tone. I mean the most famous Batman stories are actually the darkest and violent ones, like Killing Joke, the Dark Knight returns, Knightfall. These are seriously dark-toned and violent stories but i think all Batman fans agree that these are some of Bats' most powerful stories and with Dick taking a whole new direction in the Batstories, we kinda feel that something's wrong. Well i havent read a lot of Batman/Dick stories so i could be wrong, I'm actually enjoying the current Black Mirror story in Detective comics because it carries a dark tone.   

I actually forgot about Terry Mcguiness, Batman Beyond. I should have mentioned him in the topic. I actually like him as Bruce's replacement for many reasons.

First of all he is using a whole different costume with new powers. He has Dick's presonality and he is being guided by Bruce himself. And thirdly, this isn't in main continuity, it is a possible future (or maybe it will actually happen). I would have also enjoyed seeing a new Nightwing costume.

 

As for the Daiman/Jason issue i think Damian is a less lost Jason Todd. They were basically had the same features: they're both violent hotheads who like to do things their own way in order to achieve what they see as a greater good. The difference is, Jason became a villain because he wasn't saved by Batman. I'm not just talking about The Death in the Family story, I mean even when Jason was Robin, he was violent and Bruce didn't guide him well enough. As for Damian, he is being guided by Dick and Bruce because they don't want him to become another Jason Todd.  
Jason is also one of my favorite characters in DC and i think he was a really awesome Batman during Battle of the Cowl but Damian brought a new direction to Robin by possessing Jason's violent nature while introducing a sense of comedy that blends in with Dick's new Batman direction.    


   

#47 Posted by andrea_mendoza1997 (334 posts) - - Show Bio

Well it wont be 4ever right ? I guess he has earned the right to be Batman he has been with him for a long time 

#48 Posted by batflasharrow96 (445 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024: Thank you! Finally someone! I think he's way too overrated. I only kinda liked him in batman and robin because he made it his own with the characters and he actually made ok backgrounds unlike others which are just blank.
#49 Posted by RedHoodJT (528 posts) - - Show Bio
@Anjales:  I agree with you that Batman stories are supposed to be dark and gritty. But with this whole Batman Inc story and Bruce adding more "Batmen" I think that they are trying to lighten things up a bit. And I for one don't really care for the whole Batman Inc thing, but I do like Dick being Batman. He does set a different tone. And I like that tone. I've always liked Dick Grayson, or any of the Robins better than Bruce. To me it was easier to relate to either a kid with a lot of enthusiasm and sarcasm, or a kid that was a bit troubled. And even TIm Drake who had the smarts to be a detective when he first found out the true identity of both Batman and Nightwing. Bruce is just too hard to relate to. He's dark and moody. Not too many people are like that. So this Batman(Dick) I can actually relate to because of his tone and mood.
#50 Posted by Amargo_Deathscythe (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@ Anjales unfortunately batman is changing with the times, everything is making the move to PG. with dick as batman things are going to get very PG. i mean look at the batman and robin comic with the absence character. just when you thought "here's a character that takes me back to the old days" everything she did was fake. granted we had the one moment where damian got shot but there wasn't even any blood and the little bastard wasn't even paralyzed long term. 
 
I'm not saying that will make the comic better but that personal tragedy that bruce always carried made his character that much better. it made him harder and more efficient as a crime fighter. batman isn't supposed to be a light character, thats what all the robin's were for (which is why jason failed as a robin). and every time it lookes like dick will have that moment of loss that will push him to be the harder character that made bruce what he is the writer bails out and keeps him "pure" so to speak. damian dying or getting paralyzed when flamingo shot him would have been the perfect push or damien staying paralyzed for a longer period of time would have helped but they won't push the character.  and don't get me wrong i like damien but if you're gonna shot him like that don't bring him back so quicjly and then never mention it again as if getting shot like that doesn't change a relationship
 
granted dick has had his dark moments but he always comes out sunny side up and he never really changes. Hell even tim changed after all the crap that happened to him and he got better in the process.
 
I can understand why you're having a hard time with dick as batman. to me he isn't really batman. sure he has on the cowl but if you put one on superman does that make him batman too? No. he's just superman with a batsuit. so to me dick is just nightwing in a batsuit. Dick will never truly be on bruce's level as shown in power girl #21. he's close but he will never be batman. just nightwing in a batsuit

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