How smart is Dick?

#1 Posted by nickzambuto (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

Not just overall, but in specific categories.

-Tactical

-Detective

-Scientific

-Technological

-Improvisation

-Leadership

Where does he rank in these?

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#2 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Not just overall, but in specific categories.

-Tactical

-Detective

-Scientific

-Technological

-Improvisation

-Leadership

Where does he rank in these?

What's your scale? In general, I believe he is supposed to be great as a tactician (led the Titans, Outsiders, etc). I've heard ppl say that his detective skills have improved a lot since his stint as Batman. Scientific....not sure but I'm pretty sure he's not supposed to be able to match Tim or Bruce. Then again.....was it Dick who designed the flying Batmobile? Oh, guess that would be technological. Improv=excellent. Leadership=exceptional.

Basically I would say that the tactical, improv and leadership areas are the strongest. I'm sure he's no slouch technologically (and I think he has a law degree).

#3 Posted by nickzambuto (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto said:

Not just overall, but in specific categories.

-Tactical

-Detective

-Scientific

-Technological

-Improvisation

-Leadership

Where does he rank in these?

What's your scale? In general, I believe he is supposed to be great as a tactician (led the Titans, Outsiders, etc). I've heard ppl say that his detective skills have improved a lot since his stint as Batman. Scientific....not sure but I'm pretty sure he's not supposed to be able to match Tim or Bruce. Then again.....was it Dick who designed the flying Batmobile? Oh, guess that would be technological. Improv=excellent. Leadership=exceptional.

Basically I would say that the tactical, improv and leadership areas are the strongest. I'm sure he's no slouch technologically (and I think he has a law degree).

Basically, when compared to Batman, how does he rank? I'd think he'd be a better leader, and I like to think he's just as good a tactician, but I'm not sure.

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#4 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

#5 Posted by nickzambuto (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

And people have to remember, IIRC, Dick right now should be about as old as Bruce was in Year One. Ya know, the book where Batman just barely defeated 3 punks.

By the time he's Bruce's age, I have no doubt he'll be a beast. Science and tech he'll probably never excell at, but in tactics, detective skill, improv, and leadership, he should be more then capable of matching his father.

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#6 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

And people have to remember, IIRC, Dick right now should be about as old as Bruce was in Year One. Ya know, the book where Batman just barely defeated 3 punks.

By the time he's Bruce's age, I have no doubt he'll be a beast. Science and tech he'll probably never excell at, but in tactics, detective skill, improv, and leadership, he should be more then capable of matching his father.

Well I'm still hesitant to write him off in the tech department. I need to see about the Batmobile stuff. Def not on Bruce's level but no slouch. I wouldn't he will never excel. But excelling and being on Batman's level are two different things :)

#7 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoops..Bruce designed the flying Batmobile and Damian made it operational

#8 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

#9 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

Bruce does everything better than Dick?

No.

#10 Posted by nickzambuto (12905 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

That doesn't really answer my question. How does Dick compare to Bruce? Even if Batman is better then him, how close is Nightwing?

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#11 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@SmoothJammin said:

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

That doesn't really answer my question. How does Dick compare to Bruce? Even if Batman is better then him, how close is Nightwing?

Sorry, I don't know exactly which issues back up my statements. But I think it is pretty widely accepted tha Dick is a better leader than Bruce. I think Bruce might have actually said as much at Dick's near-wedding (read that in an JLA book). And not sure if you consider Wikipedia credible but it also states that he surpasses Bruce as a leader citing his ability to unify and rally so many heroes. The superhero community will follow Batman but that doesn't mean they like him. Dick has that charisma that allows him to get it done. Plus he has the Titans, Outsiders and JLA on his resume in addition to kind of commanding the BAtfamily and Allies during Battle for the Cowl. And how many times has he reunited the Titans to bail out the younger generation? I would certainly say Dick surpassed Bruce in leadership.

#12 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: Idk. Bruce as a better improv guy? I think that would be close. If Bruce wins I would say its because of his experience. I have heard a lot of things (there was another thread somewhere) where folks spent a lot of time talking about Dick and his perfect timing. And, in general, it seems like Dick would be a better improvisor by nature whereas Batman is a better tactician/planner. Even here I would say that the nature of Dick's career (being largely tied to a team in some aspect) would rival the tactical skills of Bruce (though I don't see Dick developing Tower of Babel contingency plans). Technologically, scientifically and "detective-ly" Bruce clearly has the upper hand.

#13 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kallarkz said:

@SmoothJammin said:

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

Bruce does everything better than Dick?

No.

Among the abilities listed in OP, yes.

@nickzambuto said:

@SmoothJammin said:

Bruce does everything better, hate to say. There may come a time when Dick surpasses him, today is not that day. Give him time

That doesn't really answer my question. How does Dick compare to Bruce? Even if Batman is better then him, how close is Nightwing?

Tactical Prowess is a toss up. Dick relies on intuition wholly so I dare say he has the edge in that department. A betting man would give it to Bruce. NW a slight favorite to win the race in my book.

Detective chops go to Bruce. While Dick is inquisitively reading 'Critical thinking theory 101' just to understand passages from 'How to become a Master Detective' it turns out Tim only needs to read the main textbook to absorb the material and ace his tests. Oh yeah, and Bruce is the author.

Scientifically speaking Bruce is more learned here, but I don't think people understand how marginal it is. Dick shares most of the scientific fundamental knowledge Bruce possesses he's just not as savvy yet or experienced. The breakthrough Dick had in Batman and Robin #13 speaks for itself

Tech smarts. Bruce develops some fancy toys down in the cave. Wayne Enterprises manufactures top of the line gear. All of which Nightwing makes perfect use of. When it comes to building and creating his own arsenal of gadgets Dick is very capable of operating without support. Think of Bruce as a surgeon, employing expertly handled tool skills to perform open heart surgery on a man for 7 hours straight then flawlessly sewing him back together saving his life. Now, enter 'survivalist logger' Nightwing if you will: Accurately welding through stainless steel, having to melt away at complicated schemery of pipes he's been trained to recognize, and using a chainsaw to cut down thick trees/axe wood, all resources from which he winds up building a small, livable home from over the course of a day. Both men are obviously talented, but the more polished of the two is apparent as well as the clear disparity in skill level.

Improvisation: Dick is a performer. He knows that no matter how many times he's failed over and over and over again in life, it's the reason why he ultimately succeeds. He will always trust his gut and I solemnly believe a persons first reaction is the right one. His timing is world class because of that. Bruce won't allow himself the luxury of messing up. Instead he's burdened with a plan A, B, C through Z, even if it's futile(Irrelevant however b/c this is about improv not strategy). Nightwing will keep finding viable ways to adjust accordingly, I'll ride with him.

Leadership: Batman's name alone demands respect, Nightwing's draws more trust. The chessmaster here, Batman, will usually always have the edge because his track record is impressive and he's the superior planner, thus he'd generally be tasked with commanding an entire army whereas Nightwing directs a much much smaller platoon. I'm pretty sure Dick plays a field leader here, thus expendable, but taking on the dangerous missions that count. Rest assured Nightwing's entire team will go to hell and back and give their lives for him, not sure Batman can say the same of his colleagues.

#14 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001: Don't get me wrong I prefer Dick as leader over Bruce any day of the week. Batman just has a product people buy into, he gives them results. Dick is a step behind that elite class. Yeah you see the rallying and the bravado and the versatility but when I watch both guys you know what it reminds me of? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen in the 90's. Two top notch basketball players but only one is solidified as All Time Greatest, Batman's that guy you know who will bail you out of a jam because he'll carry the team, you just have to trust in him. To this day I'm not sure Nightwing has put on on those running shoes and reaaaaallly proved to me he's had the sort of career defining triumph on par with one of Batman's greatest feats. Then again I haven't read up on his titans or solo run in its entirety. When the threat is too big it's usually JLA business and that to me speaks volumes.

The scan you mentioned?

#15 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Batman is a better leader than Nightwing.

#16 Edited by AweSam (7373 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kallarkz said:

I don't think Batman is a better leader than Nightwing.

I agree. Batman's really stubborn and doesn't listen to anyone else except himself. He's more prone to error since most people disagree with him.

#17 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

He' wise but he always struck me more as street smart.

#18 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Mist said:

He' wise but he always struck me more as street smart.

I think you've got the wrong Robin, *cough cough Jason*

#19 Posted by richardjohngrayson (414 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

#20 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

If Darkseid invaded our Earth right now, would you rather have Nightwing put in charge of worldwide planetary defense or Batman?

#21 Posted by richardjohngrayson (414 posts) - - Show Bio

Well played, sir. honest answer Batman.

#22 Posted by Romulus9000 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

But leadership is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on bruce and everyone else in DC universe for that matter. Dick is said to be the best leader in DC universe, as he has been doing it since he was a child.

#23 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Romulus9000: Far as DC's concerned he's still in little league. Boy's got the goods but for whatever reason they will never give him the push he needs towards superstardom, or what I call winning the sweepstakes...leading JLA.

#24 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

Correct

#25 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always felt confident that Dick will one day surpass Bruce is just about every category. I really think he has the potential for it... but unlike Bruce, Dick doesn't constantly push himself, and as a result, he has trouble reaching that potential

#26 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14587 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

approved by me

#27 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@vernierhawk001: Don't get me wrong I prefer Dick as leader over Bruce any day of the week. Batman just has a product people buy into, he gives them results. Dick is a step behind that elite class. Yeah you see the rallying and the bravado and the versatility but when I watch both guys you know what it reminds me of? Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen in the 90's. Two top notch basketball players but only one is solidified as All Time Greatest, Batman's that guy you know who will bail you out of a jam because he'll carry the team, you just have to trust in him. To this day I'm not sure Nightwing has put on on those running shoes and reaaaaallly proved to me he's had the sort of career defining triumph on par with one of Batman's greatest feats. Then again I haven't read up on his titans or solo run in its entirety. When the threat is too big it's usually JLA business and that to me speaks volumes.

The scan you mentioned?

Hmm.....not sure. This looks like it but I thought there was one with Clark, Diana, and bruce. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

#28 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

If Darkseid invaded our Earth right now, would you rather have Nightwing put in charge of worldwide planetary defense or Batman?

I agree. I would def look to Batman...but I'm not sure if that's based solely on leadership skills. I think I would chose Bats, in part, because of experience and his tactical ability. That being said, since "Tactical" was a category given to itself, we would somehow have to divorce the tactical factor when considering leadership, wouldn't we? If that's the case we could put Dick on top

I don't know much about Dick's run in the JLA. Did he lead any largescale, important missions? His incarnation saved the other JLA didn't they?

Finally, I kind of think about the leadership thing this way: while clearly Batman is the brains behind JLA, Superman is more of the posterboy/rallying point. Like you said, Batman commands respect but I'm not sure how many superheros outside of Superman and members of the BatFamily would say that they really trust Bruce. In Nightwing I see the potential to be both Superman and Batman in the sense that he has the tactical chops (and will get better in future) but can also be the "face" of the Justice League (something Batman would never do).

#29 Posted by Romulus9000 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@Romulus9000: Far as DC's concerned he's still in little league. Boy's got the goods but for whatever reason they will never give him the push he needs towards superstardom, or what I call winning the sweepstakes...leading JLA.

I f you are commenting on what i said as far as Dick being the best leader in DCU then you are wrong, sadly. Many times over the years they have had several characters in different stories commenting on the fact that dick can inspire a team like no one else can. I was not speaking from opinion i was speaking on factual knowledge that i obtain.

Now does that mean they will ever let dick run the justice league? No it... OH WAIT HE HAS. READ OBSIDIAN AGE.

#30 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

If Darkseid invaded our Earth right now, would you rather have Nightwing put in charge of worldwide planetary defense or Batman?

I agree. I would def look to Batman...but I'm not sure if that's based solely on leadership skills. I think I would chose Bats, in part, because of experience and his tactical ability. That being said, since "Tactical" was a category given to itself, we would somehow have to divorce the tactical factor when considering leadership, wouldn't we? If that's the case we could put Dick on top

I don't know much about Dick's run in the JLA. Did he lead any largescale, important missions? His incarnation saved the other JLA didn't they?

Finally, I kind of think about the leadership thing this way: while clearly Batman is the brains behind JLA, Superman is more of the posterboy/rallying point. Like you said, Batman commands respect but I'm not sure how many superheros outside of Superman and members of the BatFamily would say that they really trust Bruce. In Nightwing I see the potential to be both Superman and Batman in the sense that he has the tactical chops (and will get better in future) but can also be the "face" of the Justice League (something Batman would never do).

Good points, under the circumstances then I'd say it's a wrap, Grayson at his purest is a natural leader. It's his niche. Batman's not exactly on everyone's Christmas list you're right. I remember Infinite Crisis, this subject was brought up then and Batman basically told Dick he would be the one to call upon the strike team. Reason being Dick had made a conscious effort to maintain relationships with everyone else throughout all the years Batman was secluded and working on his own.

I'm aware he was placed in charge of an interim JLA team during Obsidian Age and he was tasked with rescuing the core squad. Suffice to say I haven't read it-- so I can't divulge on the subject. I did purchase his entire run on JLA as Batman if it counts for anything. Not sure how well recieved it was by readers, I loved it. His team stopped major level threats and for the first time in a long time it seemed as if Grayson was finally transcending B-character status in what I call a Camelot age of heroes which saw Batman dead, Superman on Krypton, Wondy going through an identity crisis lol and plenty of legacy characters stepping up. For what it was Robinson's Dickbats performed adequately.

I concur. Nightwing potentially has what it takes to emerge as a medley of what Supes and Bats both represent and you can't help but cheer him on along the way. This is why I love him :3

<--Hawkman

@Romulus9000 said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@Romulus9000: Far as DC's concerned he's still in little league. Boy's got the goods but for whatever reason they will never give him the push he needs towards superstardom, or what I call winning the sweepstakes...leading JLA.

I f you are commenting on what i said as far as Dick being the best leader in DCU then you are wrong, sadly. Many times over the years they have had several characters in different stories commenting on the fact that dick can inspire a team like no one else can. I was not speaking from opinion i was speaking on factual knowledge that i obtain.

Now does that mean they will ever let dick run the justice league? No it... OH WAIT HE HAS. READ OBSIDIAN AGE.

I don't disagree. However it should be noted while he's led incarnations of the league in the past, it usually came as a result of someone requiring his skills as a fill-in, or when he's shoehorned into the position because no one else was available to form a team. The fact he was able to micromanage and build his team is a testament of his impressive leadership abilities. I also try and be as subjective as I can, even though Nightwing's my all-time favorite character. Just saying~

#31 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@richardjohngrayson said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

^This

If Darkseid invaded our Earth right now, would you rather have Nightwing put in charge of worldwide planetary defense or Batman?

I agree. I would def look to Batman...but I'm not sure if that's based solely on leadership skills. I think I would chose Bats, in part, because of experience and his tactical ability. That being said, since "Tactical" was a category given to itself, we would somehow have to divorce the tactical factor when considering leadership, wouldn't we? If that's the case we could put Dick on top

I don't know much about Dick's run in the JLA. Did he lead any largescale, important missions? His incarnation saved the other JLA didn't they?

Finally, I kind of think about the leadership thing this way: while clearly Batman is the brains behind JLA, Superman is more of the posterboy/rallying point. Like you said, Batman commands respect but I'm not sure how many superheros outside of Superman and members of the BatFamily would say that they really trust Bruce. In Nightwing I see the potential to be both Superman and Batman in the sense that he has the tactical chops (and will get better in future) but can also be the "face" of the Justice League (something Batman would never do).

Good points, under the circumstances then I'd say it's a wrap, Grayson at his purest is a natural leader. It's his niche. Batman's not exactly on everyone's Christmas list you're right. I remember Infinite Crisis, this subject was brought up then and Batman basically told Dick he would be the one to call upon the strike team. Reason being Dick had made a conscious effort to maintain relationships with everyone else throughout all the years Batman was secluded and working on his own.

I'm aware he was placed in charge of an interim JLA team during Obsidian Age and he was tasked with rescuing the core squad. Suffice to say I haven't read it-- so I can't divulge on the subject. I did purchase his entire run on JLA as Batman if it counts for anything. Not sure how well recieved it was by readers, I loved it. His team stopped major level threats and for the first time in a long time it seemed as if Grayson was finally transcending B-character status in what I call a Camelot age of heroes which saw Batman dead, Superman on Krypton, Wondy going through an identity crisis lol and plenty of legacy characters stepping up. For what it was Robinson's Dickbats performed adequately.

I concur. Nightwing potentially has what it takes to emerge as a medley of what Supes and Bats both represent and you can't help but cheer him on along the way. This is why I love him :3

<--Hawkman

@Romulus9000 said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@Romulus9000: Far as DC's concerned he's still in little league. Boy's got the goods but for whatever reason they will never give him the push he needs towards superstardom, or what I call winning the sweepstakes...leading JLA.

I f you are commenting on what i said as far as Dick being the best leader in DCU then you are wrong, sadly. Many times over the years they have had several characters in different stories commenting on the fact that dick can inspire a team like no one else can. I was not speaking from opinion i was speaking on factual knowledge that i obtain.

Now does that mean they will ever let dick run the justice league? No it... OH WAIT HE HAS. READ OBSIDIAN AGE.

I don't disagree. However it should be noted while he's led incarnations of the league in the past, it usually came as a result of someone requiring his skills as a fill-in, or when he's shoehorned into the position because no one else was available to form a team. The fact he was able to micromanage and build his team is a testament of his impressive leadership abilities. I also try and be as subjective as I can, even though Nightwing's my all-time favorite character. Just saying~

Your scan......seems like "point. set. match goes to Dick"! What comic did this come from?

#32 Posted by Romulus9000 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not think that is Hawkman actually, i believe that is Deadman inhabiting Hawkman.

Look it's been said a lot more than just that scan that Dick is either a great or the best leader in the DC.

At the end of the day there is no doubt in my mind he is a better leader than Bruce.

#33 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Romulus9000: The scan above, is it from Brave and the Bold #15, Nightwing/Hawkman? I can't remember..

#34 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

I think this sums it up. I don't think Dick will ever surpass Bruce in the detective field, but the others are things that I think will come with age.

In terms of the leadership I don't think there should be any doubt that Dick is the better overall leader. He's the guy most trusted after Superman, to the point that when he calls everyone comes. He's led two iterations of the Justice League, the Teen Titans, the New Teen Titans, the Titans (Twice), and the Outsiders (All Pre-Flashpoint). Just have to ask how many times is Bruce chosen to lead the League? People will defer to him because he's the smartest guy in the room and a good tactical thinker, but he lacks the trust of the people he would lead. Again with Dick everyone trusts him. And though he stopped being a member of the Teen Titans, he was always in the background watching over them. Tim was basically the on hand leader, and Dick was the behind the scenes guy who would show up with a massive cavalry when things got rough. The trust Dick gets from his allies is what makes them fight so hard for him, while with Batman there's always something being held back.

#35 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nickzambuto: Yikes...compared to Bruce?

Tactical: Bruce>Dick (but I must say that I don't think Dick is bad.)

Detective: Bruce>Dick (he isn't the worlds greatest detective for nothing)

Scientific:Bruce>Dick

Technological: Bruce>Dick

Improv: Dick>Bruce (and this is debatable but I'm basing it on the idea that Dick is supposed to be one who has the amazing instincts and great timing)

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce (Dick has the ability to gain/give trust....something Bruce can't do)

These are my opinions...interested to see what other ppl say as I'm sure folks will disagree and have good evidence to back up their cases. But the great thing is that Dick is still growing as a character--something you don't get to see all the time. And I don't think Dick is swamped in any of these categories...just not a Bruce's level. I'd say his weakest area would be science

I think this sums it up. I don't think Dick will ever surpass Bruce in the detective field, but the others are things that I think will come with age.

In terms of the leadership I don't think there should be any doubt that Dick is the better overall leader. He's the guy most trusted after Superman, to the point that when he calls everyone comes. He's led two iterations of the Justice League, the Teen Titans, the New Teen Titans, the Titans (Twice), and the Outsiders (All Pre-Flashpoint). Just have to ask how many times is Bruce chosen to lead the League? People will defer to him because he's the smartest guy in the room and a good tactical thinker, but he lacks the trust of the people he would lead. Again with Dick everyone trusts him. And though he stopped being a member of the Teen Titans, he was always in the background watching over them. Tim was basically the on hand leader, and Dick was the behind the scenes guy who would show up with a massive cavalry when things got rough. The trust Dick gets from his allies is what makes them fight so hard for him, while with Batman there's always something being held back.

While he def isn't on Bruce's level and prob still not on Tim's (assuming that Drake trait still holds in this universe) but he is coming into his own. He's been forced to do some sleuthing in the Nightwing book. I think he is actually improving in this area. Might shock someone someday

#36 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really like this whole perception that Dick isn't smart or a good detective.

Is he as smart as Bruce (or Tim pre-flashpoint)? No, and he probably won't ever be able to reach that level of intelligence. Does this mean he's dumb? As far as I'm concerned no it doesn't, he's way more intelligent than your average guy and probably not all that far off of people who might be regarded as geniuses, its the comparisons with Bruce that lead people to think he's not all that intelligent. Same applies with his skill as a detective, he's undoubtedly a very good detective but when compared to Bruce he inevitably seems to be quite average.

#37 Posted by Batnandez (511 posts) - - Show Bio

men rule rule the world so... ;)

#38 Posted by vernierhawk001 (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@LuigiBat said:

I don't really like this whole perception that Dick isn't smart or a good detective.

Is he as smart as Bruce (or Tim pre-flashpoint)? No, and he probably won't ever be able to reach that level of intelligence. Does this mean he's dumb? As far as I'm concerned no it doesn't, he's way more intelligent than your average guy and probably not all that far off of people who might be regarded as geniuses, its the comparisons with Bruce that lead people to think he's not all that intelligent. Same applies with his skill as a detective, he's undoubtedly a very good detective but when compared to Bruce he inevitably seems to be quite average.

Most def. I hope none of my posts gave you the impression that I feel that way. I too think that Grayson is pretty smart (one incarnation had him studying pre-law in college or something like that, right?). Like you said, it's just that comparison to Bruce. It's like in the Olympics: Justin gatlin came in third i the 100m sprint so ppl might down him because he didn't beat Bolt or Blake. Still, the fact remains that he is the 3rd freakin fastest man IN THE WORLD!! It's all about perspective

#39 Posted by Blacklightning13 (916 posts) - - Show Bio

Tactical: Bruce>Dick. It's quite close but Bruce still beats him.

Detective: Bruce>Dick. Dick has learnt from him but doesn't have as much experience or as much equipment.

Scientific:Bruce>Dick. Definatley, Bruce has 12 master degrees, he built the bat-mobile for Christs sake. But Dick's no slouch, he has designed and built a lot of his own equipment.

Technological: Bruce>Dick. Dick simply doesn't use it as much and mostly swings around and doesn't have pretty much every vehicle. I also think Bruce has more access to the Wayne corporations work and has more funding. Plus Dick has always been more about skills and less about tech. I mean he doesn't carry as much equipment, his suit lacks armour so he can move more freely and he doesn't have a cave full of tech.

Improv: Dick>Bruce.

Leadership: Dick>>Bruce. Dick can nearly match Batman in tactics, not to mention he gains trust easier like Superman and he isn't an asshole. In time Dick will probably beat him at tactics and h2h as well, this will make Dick an even better leader and quite likely an equal to Batman on the JLA.

#40 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick is average to above average at best when it comes to intelligence things. He's only better than average due to the study, but he's a "natural" at any of it and he is clearly outclassed by Tim, Bruce, and Barbara.

You might argue he is a better leader, but that doesn't mean he is a smart leader. There reason he is the "best" leader in DC is not because he has some sort of intellect for the matter, but rather because so many trust him (stupidly in my opinion) and that everything he does is more a muscle memory/flow type thing where he is doing it based on instinct which was created by Bruce. Think of t like this. If you were to present him a situation and he wasn't in the midst of it he would be completely be outclassed by just about all the rest of the Bat-Family, but in the situation he'd know what to do and how to do it and people would defer to him, even if they know better than he, because they know that others who aren't as good will default to him even if they were to say what to do.

#41 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@LuigiBat said:

I don't really like this whole perception that Dick isn't smart or a good detective.

Is he as smart as Bruce (or Tim pre-flashpoint)? No, and he probably won't ever be able to reach that level of intelligence. Does this mean he's dumb? As far as I'm concerned no it doesn't, he's way more intelligent than your average guy and probably not all that far off of people who might be regarded as geniuses, its the comparisons with Bruce that lead people to think he's not all that intelligent. Same applies with his skill as a detective, he's undoubtedly a very good detective but when compared to Bruce he inevitably seems to be quite average.

Most def. I hope none of my posts gave you the impression that I feel that way. I too think that Grayson is pretty smart (one incarnation had him studying pre-law in college or something like that, right?). Like you said, it's just that comparison to Bruce. It's like in the Olympics: Justin gatlin came in third i the 100m sprint so ppl might down him because he didn't beat Bolt or Blake. Still, the fact remains that he is the 3rd freakin fastest man IN THE WORLD!! It's all about perspective

Exactly, its about perspective.

In all honesty if Dick Grayson were a real person he'd be more intelligent than all of us here by some distance. One thing I will say is this. I think it's possible that Dick simply doesn't use his intelligence all that much due to his ability to improvise and react to situations without a second thought, how often does he genuinely need to use his intellect to its full?

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