Fighting Ability Thread *UPDATED 10-30-13*

#1 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

A Thread showcasing Nightwing's prowess as a fighter. Including both New 52 and Pre-52 Feats.

Here, He defeats Matatoa, an Immortal Warrior who defeats others to steal their souls and their best abilities/qualities. Nightwing easily defeats him WITHOUT the aid of Batman (Gotham Knights #17)(Pre-Reboot)
Decisively defeats Shrike II, the protege of the Original Shrike. Shrike II was a League of Assassins member who was Dicks Teacher during Robin: Year One. He later died. His Protege blamed Nightwing for his death and sine then been his enemy, taking on his Mentor's alias. He's been shown to give a Depowered Black Canary a hard time, almost killing her the first time had Nightwing not intervene.(Nightwing #91)(Pre-Reboot)
Fights Cheshire, Who Canary has said to be the 2nd Most Deadliest Assassins in the World. Also, a very skilled Martial Artist. Possibly Top-tier. Inconclusive Stalemate(Action Weekly 614)(Pre-Reboot)
Fights Cheshire again, accomplishing his goal of planting a tracer and escaping. Yet another Inconclusive Stalemate (Action Weekly 616-617) (Pre-Reboot)

Stalemates Cheshire once again, this time, seemingly having the slight upperhand and showing he's outclasses her physicaly. The fight is cut short due to Speedy's intervention. It should also be noted that this fight happens during his early years as Nightwing. He's not as skilled as he becomes much later. (Action Weekly 617) (Pre-Reboot)

An Early fight here with Deathstroke. The reason for this post is many people feel like Deathstroke knows how to beat Nightwing handily and with ease and say he's done so in many battle fourms. I like to point out that he has been portrayed as being outclassed by him during his early years. He LATERS becomes able to fight him to an inconclusive Stalemates. The word later is important, as this signifies his growth as a fighter. (Tales of the Teen Titans43)(Pre-Reboot)
Despite being initally ambushed, dominates and outmaneuvers Deathshtroke, even disarming him before taking off from Man-Bat, who he was after. (Nightwing 18) (Pre-Reboot)

Beats him to a Stalemate before getting away. Note that Slade is angry in this one. And Nightwing, once again, uses his skills to outmaneuver him. This shows that his agility and skill is great enough to even allude one of DC's Premier Assassins and Hand-To-Hand Combatants in battle.(Nightwing 117) (Pre-Reboot)

Fights Slade to a Stalemate once again. He fights Dirtier due to his Fighting style being different when Batman. One Issue explained that his fighting style is more rigid and less fluid then when he was Nightwing(Starfire describe him as a dancer fighting as Nightwing). This shows that he can change fighting styles if needed. This feat is often narked due to the fact this is the story in which he pays Deathstroke to NOT kill in the story. I want to point out that in this fight, Deathstroke tried to get Batman(Dick) off his tail and couldn't do so physically, resorting to the use of his weaonry to get him off his tail. This clearly shows that he is a serious threat to Slade in a fight. Another note is that in many of his fights with Deathstroke, he never uses gadgetry. It's unknown why he never does, as he can seriously tip the scale in doing so. (Titans 27)(Pre-Reboot)

Here, he defeats a metahuman by the name of "Metal Eddie", who has displayed superhuman durabillity and Superhuman reflexes. And does so in 2 hits, showing that his strength can very well damage even Metahuman,even as Robins. (Nightwing 135)(Pre-Reboot)
Many times, people underestimate his strength. While he's not as strong as Batman, he rather close. 2 Seperates feats show him using a bed as a weapon and another shows him shoving a piano at Azrael, who's fighting skills rivals Bats and has given him a hard time. Also the character who defeated Bane after Batman broke his back and stalemates Deathstroke in a swordbattle(These feats are before his power-up). This is before he recieves his power-ups shortly before his death. He has yet to retain that.(Nightwing 4)(Detective Comics 677)(Pre-Reboot)
Stalemates Cassandra Cain, one of Dc's premier Martial Artist and someone who managed to defeat Lady Shiva(with great difficulty). He's normally displayed as being out of her league. However, this fight proves that Nightwing can give her a run for her money. Some contributing factors here is that this takes place during his time with the Outsiders, in which he exhibits a personality change due to Donna's death that temporarily gives him traits very similar to his mentor. His focus and style slightly differs when doing so. ( Batman and the Outsiders 14)(Pre-Reboot)
Beats The Sensei with Knock Out batarangs. A impressive feat with the combination of gadgetry and skill, as The Sensei has nearly killed Bruce himself in the past (Batman 705)(Pre-Reboot)
One shots Cassandra Cain. Note that this was, indeed, a surprise attack. However, this just shows Nightwing is capable of dealing damage to her. (Teen Titans 46) (Pre-Reboot)
Able to wrestle with Power Punch, despite the fact that he is overpowered due to his Super Stregnth. This feat clearly shows he's able to fight Metahumans with Super Strength and Superhuman Durability. (Nightwing 132) (Pre-Reboot)
Defeats Blanco, a Black Ops Trained Super Soldier who has displayed Superhuman durability. This also showcases his strength able to hurt and injure those with Superhuman Defense to a certain degree. (Batman 690)(Pre-Reboot)
Easily defeats Owen Mercer, also known as Captain Boomerang and a Flash Rogue Gallery. This fight proves his reflexes are honed enough to block those who uses Super-speed because he's Peak Human. He also explained in different issue featuring Jesse Quick that he can dodge Superhuman Speed attacks because he can "feel" them coming. This is why he can block speedster attacks to a degree, yet, get tagged by street levelers. (Outsiders Five of a Kind: Nightwing & Boomerang)(Pre-Reboot)
Nightwing has a inconclusive Stalemate against Sasha Bordeaux. This is actually a nice feat. She was Bruce Wayne's former bodyguard turned villain who works for the OMAC. The OMAC has given her cybermetic enhancements(Revealed in Checkmate Volume 2 15) in which she's 20% over the limit of Olympic athletes in speed, strength, durability, etc. This fights heavily hints Nightwing of exceeding Olympic Level, furthering pushing the likelihood of him being Peak Human.(Pre-Reboot)(Outsiders 47)
Beat a Werewolf. Yet another good feat, showing he can defeat those of Supernatural Origin. (Pre-Reboot)
Gains a slight upperhand in fighting a clone of Bruce Wayne. That might be due to the third party interferring(Squire) but this clearly shows and almost implies heavily that Dick's Skills are very close to Bruce's own. More closer than most think. The clone clearly has shown to have his skills and more strength. However, it's intelligence is questionable. Damian later tricks the clone into stepping on oil and blows up a car. Batman wouldn't fall for such tricks. This scans seems to prove(or hint otherwise) that fighting skill wise, Dick can match up to Bruce himself. (Batman and Robin 8)(Pre-Reboot)
Nightwing easily defeats Thomas, a metahuman with the ability to manipulate energy and emotions of others. This feat clearly proves that being a metahuman isn't going to take Dick down. Thomas attempted to use his powers to put Nightiwng to sleep, but, this feat clearly proves his ability to overcome his control via will. In this arc, he's one of the 2 characters shown to be able to overpower him from willpower.(Nightwing 130)(Pre-Reboot
Makes Sammy Butler(Charge), a metahuman with the ability to manipulate electricity, look silly. This proves yet again that he can easily handle metahumans. He even leads his own team of them and all know he means business. (Nightwing 132)(Pre-Reboot)
Being controlled by Thomas, the Team attacks Nightwing. Nightwing defeats 2 out of 4 that were controlled, though it seemed that he can handle them and tried to get them to fight him off with their will. This feat also proves not only he can handle metahumans, but that with the combination of his suit and pure skill, he can take on teams of metahumans. (Nightwing 132)(Pre-Reboot
By surprise, Subdues Violet(she does escape), a metahuman who has lived for over 2-3 centuries due to her power to drain the life of others. She's seen as being very powerful. However, she has repeatedly fought Nightwing and hasn't ever landed an everlasting attack on him. This shows he can, again i like to reiterate, handle metahumans of all types of scales. He also decisively defeats Thomas with ease. These couple scans are very helpful in determining him fighting against metahumans. Many people nark Nightwing in battles simply because of people having powers. Like Batman and many street levelers, part of his concept of character is that even without powers, with suit and pure skill and sometimes gadgetry, he can pull wins from metahumans.
Using Firefly as a human shield, who is bullet proof. This feat is almost superhuman, as he reacts so quickly, it seems superhuman. It may be because some shots missed or that him look happened moments before they shot and he block. This feat almost displays his reflexes to a borderline metahuman level.(Nightwing 98)(Pre-Reboot)
Warns Bane, Catman, and Ragdoll to back off of Gotham. Catman openly protests, however, Bane is the one who told them to not mess with him. A Big surprise. I know for sure Nightwing can take out Catman and Ragdoll but for Bane to not test Nightwing is something. They had fought twice and Nightwing has lost both. In fairness, he actually won one fight. The other fight had him elbowed and Batman appears(i could be wrong). However, why Bane even went with it puzzles me. I have one theory: At this point. Nightwing has vastly approved. Besides the feats of him being Batman, he has pulled off most if not all pre-reboot feats listed here at this point. And Bane must recognized that he is just as of a threat as Batman is. That's my theory.
Gains the upperhand in his fight with Azrael(Batman at the time), a genetically enhanced fighter, until he loses due to being distracted by a civilian. He was under control of the System, in which arguably puts him at Batman's level. Azrael later fights Batman, and gained the upperhand until tricking him via utilizing his suit's weakness. This is an impressive feat because he was shown able to fight a character who Batman even had a hard time with(Even with Shiva's training) and gains the upperhand. This is a feat in which places him on(or at least close) Batman's level of fighting skills(Detective Comics 677)(Pre-Reboot)
Fights and bests Ra's Al Ghul in a swordfight. While not under the effects of being freshly dipped in the Laxurus Pitt, he's been shown to stalemate Batman in swordfights. Another great feat on his end, showing that he can match one of the Worlds Premier Assassins once again. As a bonus, he earns the title "Detective" from Ras. (Nightwing 152)(Pre-Reboot)
Beats a Talon, already knowing of it's Superhuman Capability. This feat is narked from the Talon being mistakenly being a type of "Canon Fodder" due to Bruce and Bane easily beating them and by stuggling with it, it's a low showing. It should be noted that Bane beated his talon from my knowledge under the influence of Venom. So of course he won. And Batman did have to bring out a suit to beat the them along with making the Batcave cold. Besides, He took down the Talon quickly in 4 panels and . The issue had many flashbacks that led to the next issue. He suffered only 2 hits in all before defeating the Talon with deadly force. He's shown to look bad after the fight, but the next page has him pick him up and holding him and from there he looked fine. it's possible that the Talon is more skilled then the normal ones, which can be displayed as Canon Fodder of a sort. They sorta vary. (Nightwing 8)(New 52)
Nightwing defeats William Cobb. A nice show of his tactical skills. This, however, is also another feat subjected to nark due to Batman having not much trouble with him but giving Nightwing a hard time. My explanation is that he started the battle bleeding and that contributed. Nightwing does say that he isn't sure if he can take him on if he was at full strength himself. I pass that as Nightwing doubting himself. There's nothing suggesting that. He started from a disadvantage and still won with the use of his tactical mind. This isn't a low showing on his end. (Nightwing 9)(New 52)
Nightwing defeats the demon, Acheron. A really impressive feat. His strength is great enough to injure even those of Supernatural Origin. And his Agility is shown to allude the demon. Very impressive. He showned some knowledge of Demonology, though, is limited on it as it seems. (Nightwing 5)(New 52)
Nightwing defeats Paragon. Note that this fight arguable has PIS on Paragon, as an injury to the leg hindered Nightwing for the majority of the battle, despite him taking much worse punishments from earlier battles, and closed spaces. And for the story to unfold. It wasn't until after the story unfolded and getting out of tight spaces Nightwing won. (Nightwing 12)(New 52)
Nightwing manages to hold his own with Lady Shiva, Possibly DC's Deadliest Assassin and Greatest Martial Artist. It should be noted that he wasn't fully able to fight due to past injuries and a healing broken Rib. Lady Shiva comments on his potential and even stops fighting after she realized he was injured and couldn't fight to the fullest. Note that Lady Shiva is the type of character who likes a good fight. She's impressed with Nightwing and stopped the fight when she learned he was not 100%. This means she's aware that he could do more was he not injured. A really nice feat, considering he earned some respect from Lady Shiva while fighting her with broken Ribs. And repeatedly comments on his potential. She also alludes to them meeting in the future. In their first encounter, she made it known she would have no problem training him herself. (New 52)(Nightwing 14)
Defeats Shox easily. (New 52)(Nightwing 6)
Nightwing gains the upperhand against Saiko in the first fight. He pulled off the villain tactic of putting the innocent in danger to escape. He also states he's faster than Nightwing(therefore Batman), but has no feats to back this up(Therefore this claim is quesitonable. ) (Nightwing 1 & 2)(New 52)
Nightwing Beats Saiko. This, again, proves that Nightwing is the superior fighter, Saiko only landing hits when preoccupied. This goes against his Comicvine page, which states he fights on par. This fight clearly shows that without PIS and even with Gadgetry, Nightwing beats him. Even uses the the environment to his advantage.
Nightwing defeats Saiko once again. Proving he's his superior in fighting, despite the use of Gadgetry for Saiko. Comicvine says Saiko is on par with Nightwing. 3 fights, he lost to Dick. And in the first ran away. Him being on par with Nightwing is actually incorrect. (Nightwing 7 & 8)(New 52)
Here, he's seen to be at least a hair faster then Bruce and manages to dodge Bruce's own attacks that he did throw. It could be a low showing for Nightwing. Though most don't get the context. In truth, even when mad, he holds back when fighting family. With some examining and reading the story and understanding Nightwing, it's not as of a low showing as it appeared. Nightwing holds back against family and when angered, actually doesn't do as good cause he's not focused. (Batman 600)(Pre-Reboot)
Arsenal says that If Nightwing was thinking straight(More focused), he wouldn't be able to dodge. When Nightwing is angered, depending on how angered he is, he may lose focus and fight blindly, diminishing his skill. (New Teen Titans 101)(Pre-Reboot)

Jakob tells that he's able to tell who's the real Nightwing due to Dick being the one who holds back. Dick is the type of character to be this way. He is a very friendly and trusting individual, who tries so hard seeing the good in EVERYONE. and it's this side of his personality that makes him flawed. It's because of this when people betray him, it hurts him much more deeply. The result of his first love cheating and using him is actually the reason he sleeps around with others. This attribute with him, being trusting of others, is why him and Batman clash. Because he cares for Jason, he holds back on him. This also inserts the previous battles with him was him holding back on Jason. This isn't the first instance this flaw is called upon. It for this reason he is unable to fully fight anyone he trusts. This isn't a feat, but more of a understaning of how he fairs in fights with those he love. This is why putting him against Batman in the Battle fourms, no matter if he has prep or special circumstances, isn't ideal unless you give DG a reason to go all out. It's this flaw that hinders him from fight opponents who he knows. In all, we know that Any fight with people in the Batfamily that's of their own free will means he will hold back, even when angered. (Nightwing 120)(Pre-Reboot)

Gains the upperhand fighting HWA Rang, a Member of Lady Shiva's Circle of Six. A Nice feat considering these people(3 out of 6 were present) together were a big enough threat to give 2 well known MA trouble and Nightwing himself actually contributed, as his presence makes the Secret Six avoid Bludhaven due to not wanting to tangle with Superheroes. Also, HWA Rang was skilled enough to even surprise Bronze Tiger and defeat him, putting him into a coma. (Richard Dragon 3)
Able to run on top of a speeding train, displaying great acrobatic and agility in doing so. (Nightwing 0)(New 52)
Nightwing moves around Sylph's fabric, a impressive agility feat considering the tight spaces and him moving around it and also uses the enviroment to his advantage (Nightwing 49)(Pre-Reboot)
Displays his acrobatic skill and agility to take out 2 Well Armed Wingmen. (Nightwing 145)(Pre Reboot)
Display his acrobatic skill again, dodging tentacles that ended up capturing all of the Titans except him (The Titans 29)(Pre-Reboot)
Maneuvers himself around Doomsday, Cyborg Superman, and even the Watchtower's security (Superman Batman Annual 5)(Pre-Reboot)
Tied in a race between him and Batgirl(Cassandra Cain), who displays borderline Metahuman speed. (Legends of the Dark Knight 184)(Pre Reboot)

As Batman, moves so fast Nemesis couldn't see his movement and even comments that he's faster then Batman(Bruce Wayne). Note he has had an encountered with the original Batman before. (Nemesis 2)(Pre Reboot)

Detects a Sniper and dodges his shots (Nightwing 133)(Pre-Reboot)
Dodges 200 Rounds per minute and takes down the Armed, Flying Gunman. (Nightwing 142)(Pre-Reboot)
As Batman, moves through a Laser Field with extreme ease. Even Wonder Woman is amazed. (Nemesis 3)(Pre-Reboot)
As Batman, wrestles himself out of a Whale. (Detective Comics 878)(Pre-Reboot)
Easily Tosses KGBeast to the side using his strength. (Nightwing 35)(Pre-Reboot)
Beats Gorilla Grodd into talking using his strength and Escrima Sticks(Outsiders Volume 3 4)(Pre-Reboot)
Tanks an attack from an enraged Donna Troy and dodges her next move. (New Teen Titans 19)(Pre-Reboot)
Withstands a punch from Orisis. Also injured Killer Croc to the point he felt it, despite his Superhuman Durabiliy. (Titans 30)(Pre-Reboot)
Easily takes out League of Assassin Ninjas. Ubu then comments on how Nightwing's own skills "rivals" those of Batman's own. He also uses Alfred as leverage instead of fighting him. A nice showing for Alfred since he easily took care of Ubu.(Detective Comics 838)(Pre-Reboot)
Easily defeats Lady Vic and Brutale. (Nightwing 74)(Pre-Reboot)
As Robin, Disarms Wonder Woman and uses Speedy and Flash as Distractions to gas Wonder Woman, defeating her. (Teen Titans Year One 3)
Along with Batman Inc, fight off a couple of the 30 World's Greatest Assassins . He also one-shot someone who might be Shrike. Considering he was able to give him a decent fight pre-reboot(still was no match), Nightwing in the New 52 is showing more prowess as a Martial Artist with an occasional slip up(Paragon due to Tight spaces, Prankster due to somehow knowing where he was in Nightwing 24). This is better in comparison to him having trouble with many no names like in the past. (New 52) (Batman Inc 4)

Easily Handles and Gain the upperhand on Robin(Tim Drake), whos had training from Batman with the added Lady Shiva. Even using the Bo staff, he hasn't tagged Nightwing throughout the fight and disarms him. Note that both characters held back, as both are like brother and this isn't an example of an all out battle between these 2 .(Nightwing 139)(Pre Reboot)

#2 Posted by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Great job. Awesome thread!

#3 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

Great job. Awesome thread!

Co-Sign. Looks like you did your research and thoroughly examined the results of each fight, literally spanning decades of mixed showings. I personally have to give thanks because this topic has helped me in determining what fighting style Nightwing employs for a thread I created a few months ago titled "Martial Art ". DC lists him as a master in Aikido but revising these scans and sifting through back issues old and new seem to prove otherwise. A couple of these fights I didn't even know about until I saw them here.

#5 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson said:

Great job. Awesome thread!

Co-Sign. Looks like you did your research and thoroughly examined the results of each fight, literally spanning decades of mixed showings. I personally have to give thanks because this topic has helped me in determining what fighting style Nightwing employs for a thread I created a few months ago titled "Martial Art ". DC lists him as a master in Aikido but revising these scans and sifting through back issues old and new seem to prove otherwise. A couple of these fights I didn't even know about until I saw them here.

You wouldn't be wrong, as he does specialize in Akido. However, he specializes in many more Martial Arts. And the word "Specializes" is there too. I have a couple of scans that'll show his immesne Knowledge in Marital Arts. Be sure to check back. Whenever you can. XD It should be known though that he can change up his Martial Art styles and that when he fights, he incorporates a variety of Martial Arts just like Bruce.

And thank you. I do actually do some background work on his fights. I've seen and read many of them myself and do research about that particular story and fight. And I'm honest as possible. If I know he flat out beat, i wont sugar coat it or anything. If something happens due to PIS, ill note it and explain why.

#6 Edited by JetiiMitra (8622 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like this thread and I can tell a lot of research was put into these fights, but I have to ask how this:

One shots Cassandra Cain. Note that this was, indeed, a surprise attack and shows that Nightwing is fully capable of beating her in hand-to-hand combat, despite her previously shown to outclass him. (Teen Titans 46) (Pre-Reboot)

Shows that Nightwing can beat Cassandra in H2H. All he did was grab her by the cape and slam her on the ground. The one-shot was impressive, but she was most likely too disoriented to do anything to prevent it.

#7 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

I really like this thread and I can tell a lot of research was put into these fights, but I have to ask how this:

@jayaaerow said:
One shots Cassandra Cain. Note that this was, indeed, a surprise attack and shows that Nightwing is fully capable of beating her in hand-to-hand combat, despite her previously shown to outclass him. (Teen Titans 46) (Pre-Reboot)

Shows that Nightwing can beat Cassandra in H2H. All he did was grab her by the cape and slam her on the ground. The one-shot was impressive, but she was most likely too disoriented to do anything to prevent it.

I understand what you mean. I'll change the description. I worded it wrong and I thank you for catching it. But this proves that.....she's not untouchable to Nightwing. Many battle fourms make Nightwing vs Cassy out to be some huge curbstomp. And that's not the case. She beats him of course but it's not a curbstomp. Get my drift?

#8 Posted by BallPointHero (134 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: She was also drugged for several weeks thanks to Deathstroke; which was why Cass went at him in the first place.

#9 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I just wanna point out that there is another fight between Cass and Dick in Outsiders. A much better showing (for him) in terms of landing shots. Its an actual fight, not a cheap shot. Now, I only mention that so I can mention this next part, in Cass' last solo mini series she punks Nightwing. He cant touch her and she easy reads his moves and he never lays a finger on her.

Edit: Nevermind I see you have the Outsiders fight :P

#11 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall: I remember that fight. It was actually a spar. Sparring never really show full capability. The Outsiders had him be serious. Also, they have clashed because Nightwing has a severe disdain against assassins and viewed her as such.

#12 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall: I remember that fight. It was actually a spar.

Hmm, are we talking about the same fight/issue? 2008 series? Cause that was no spar he out right attacks her. This takes place after the Slade drugging incident/The one shot knock out. He still thinks she's an evil assassin. She's not, but as you can see he couldnt have done anything about it if she had been.

#13 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall: Weird. I was told that some time ago. O_o I saw the scans and someone mention it was a spar. Guess not. What issue is this?

#14 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Batgirl #1 Redemption Road (second Cassandra Cain Batgirl series). I see which ever user wrote up the intro for it here on comicvine also called it a "spar." I think clearly she's not going all out, she doesnt even strike. But Nightwing doesnt look, or sound, like he's sparring/holding back.

#15 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall: DC Wikia even noted it was a spar. This is possibly because Nightwing, while untrusting, wasn't going all out either. He was talking for the duration of the battle.

Also, the time him and Cassandra Cain and Nightwing fought and stalemated happened after this battle.

#16 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I dont have a problem with the idea of neither one going "all out" but it is still far from a sparring session. Nightwing talking during the bout doesnt really mean anything as every fighter in comics talks, even during bloodlusted death matches. Its pretty clear from the actual scans that he's trying to hit her, extensively at that. He even brakes out weapons while she herself remains unarmed. Nightwing only stops when Batman himself arrives and calls him out.


Also, the time him and Cassandra Cain and Nightwing fought and stalemated happened after this battle.

Sorry, I'm not sure what this part is saying? Nightwing and Cass only fought once in this mini, and those are the panels. He tries to stop her again in issue 4 and she kicks him in the face and leaves.

(DC wiki is also fan edited.)

#17 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall:

Yeah, I understand but if comicvine and DC wikia are both saying that it was a spar, then there's a high likey chance it's a spar. Like I said, he was talking for the duration of it and wasn't that serious. Just because it "looks" like it doesn't mean he is going all out. After all, he couldn't just "beat" her if he wanted to(though with her skills, it wouldn't turn out like it). Since Batman was around somewhere.

I was referring to the fight that happen in the outsiders. The time he stalemated her in the Outsiders happened after the fight you posted.

#18 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: Did you read what he was saying? I'm not sure why talking = spar but if thats the case then every scan in the OP would be a spar lol. Every fighter talks during a fight. That actually means very little. Just cause CV and DC wiki call it a spar means nothing more then whoever (fan edited) wrote it called it a spar. Sparring is training. Its not attacking someone you want to do harm to cause you dont like them. You dont have to be going balls out for it to be a fight or to be trying. If you read Nightwing's actual verbalization its easy to see its not a spar. He attacks her cause he doesnt like her, he attacks her cause she's down in the Batcave unannounced, he attacks her cause he thinks it was her, and not Slade's serum, that dictated her actions in Teen Titans. Through the whole series Nightwing's intentions are made obviously clear. He even goes off on Oracle for helping Cassandra Cain. This is a fight. No two ways about it. And its a fight that Nightwing gets clowned in. Read the run and if you still think it was a spar then we'll just have to agree to disagree :)

Ahh, gotcha. Wasnt sure what that meant at first.

#19 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall: Honestly, the only way I see it is that serious, it would go along the lines of how the fight in the Outsiders issue go. I don't know. I'd have to go and read the issue myself. I really can't insert to you what it is. Cause when I first posted the picture of them stalemating, i actually thought it was a legitimate fight that got broken up and noted that within the description of the stalemate(I mention how she walked circles around him). But then I saw spar much later during my research.

The point of me posting the Outsider fight is that to get rid of this notion he can't at least "hang" with top tier fighters. He's not always gonna get "Murderstompped" or whatnot. Cause fourms say that will happen(But yes, he will lose for the majority). And then comes time where he does win at something, THEN they say "Oh well, he's close to Batman so yeah". Im trying to make sure you would know where he would stand. Is he considered top teir or a notch below? I can't answer that question yet. He's hard to place. One minute he's has good showings against Cheshire, HWA Rang, Azrael, and Ra Al Ghul and the next, he's getting curbstomped from Bane or is "untouchable" to Batman. I heard someone once say that in ways, you can consider him top tier martial artist but also a character writers use as a stepping stone so they'll pose some threat to Batman since he's not Batman-level. He's also one of those characters subject to growth and I have to keep that in mind. Deathstroke is the best example. I could post scans of him curbstomping Nightwing. But that was in the 1980s. Now, he's able to give him a good fight that could end in stalemates, despite him being the superior. That's recent, too. So, When I do my research, I have to keep in mind that part of the reason he's so hard to place is because unlike Batman, he's get a much more dramatic growth in skill then Batman. But also a lot of fluctuation. I'm getting all the good showings to show why one /COULD/ consider him one of DC's Best Martial Artist. And honestly, I didn't even know he was that type of person. And Im a Nightwing fan. Also, im trying to see how people could place Nightwing as a Top 10 DC Martial Artist. From what I've seen he's always number 10. Either that or he's definately at the Top 20. However, another problem is that unlike Batman, he doesn't get a lot of clear cut wins. For example, he held up very well with Cheshire. But didn't get to show he wins because of Arsenal. He puts up an amazng fight with Azrael when he was Batman. But loses because of distraction. He gains the upperhand in a fight with HWA Rand, but then people interrupt and shoot the place. He gains the upperhand with a Batman Clone created under Darkseid's order, but then the place they're in explode due to someone setting it up prior to that and that the clone Batman only seemingly retained Bruce's fighting skills and not his intellect. Barely holds his own with Lady Shiva, but then all of sudden, stops the fight cause she then knows he wasn't fighting at full capacity. That happens A LOT with Nightwing. It's like the writers want to make him look cool, but then realizes there's a plot they have to go and keep it going. Point blank: He can be considered top tier but it a challenge to provide clear cut proof he is.

#20 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayaaerow: I didnt read all of this cause in reality I have no real issue with the idea of Nightwing being able to hang or give Cass a good fight. But it is easy to see, in comicbook debates based off their on panel feats and head to head encounters, why users say its an easy win for Cass. Not that its right, but its clearly the easier side to argue for.

#21 Edited by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick wins against Cas for the simple fact that he still exists. Point is he sells books. Talk as much crap as you like but I call it a win for Grayson.

#23 Posted by lilcraig92 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Only why people would say cass would win is because she's really nothin more den a fighter and most of her story line is base on fighting alone.Soooooooooo

#24 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1639 posts) - - Show Bio

What most people don't know is that Dick hit Cass so hard she was erased from continuity.

#25 Posted by JayAaerow (452 posts) - - Show Bio

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