As the first Robin, Dick Grayson was the most famous sidekick in comic book history. As he ventured forth on his own, he formed the Teen Titans and became their leader. When the boy became a man, he became the independent hero known as Nightwing.
OK, that might be a little extreme, but it leads to an appropriate question:
Where do Comic Vine members feel Dick Grayson stands intellectually amongst the first three Robins? Tim, of course, is the genius groomed into becoming the next World's Greatest Detective, while Jason, as of late, has been portrayed as quite the adept planner. Dick has the experience and the feats to suggest that he's intellectually gifted, but his carefree nature and lothatio lifestyle seem to get in the way of others' perception of him?
Dick is more experienced and has a better sense of how to be a super hero. Tim is more of a detective but Dick is smarter in life and in making the choices he makes.
Yeah I've never heard Dick being called a moron. He's been Batman a couple of years now and has kept Damian in check for Prime's sake. Plus, he's been the "smiling" Batman and people are still scared of him and the GCPD like him more than Bruce. He seems to have all the respect as Batman that Bruce did from the JLA so I'm not sure why this thread is here.
In my opinion i don't see Jason at the same level as Dick due to him letting his anger get in the way of his thinking, while Dick seems to be more level headed. That's not to say though that Jason isn't bright.
I wanted to know how posters felt the first three Robins ranked intellectually (detection, planning, etc.) The title was purposefully more shocking than needed.
This is the first i've ever heard of Dicks intelligence ever being questioned.
You can't honestly say he isn't waaay overshadowed by Tim and Bruce's "intellectual prowess". To the point where viners only credit his combat skills/leadership above everything else. Thing is, Dick has achieved everything he knows through hardwork. Bats literally drilled him like a soldier on how to understand all the fundamentals of vigilantism. Thats where Dick excels. He is the most complete crimefighter in Batmans stead. Tim is a prodigy, which makes him something special but nowhere near as versatile as Dick. Nightwing is Batman greatest ally for a reason. He's always there to catch him..
Jason Todd has proven to be quite the journeyman, traveling the world, learning his own trade and expanding upon what he was taught as Robin. You can really tell that Jason wants to study and improve his game and he shares this distinction with Bruce. They're both tortured geniouses, the only difference being that Jason has crossed the line into insanity. On street smarts Jay is likely #1, just edging out Grayson. To vouch for Dick, I recommend reading Who is Donna Troy, The Judas Contract, A Lonely Place of Dying. When he's up against something huge(Professor Pyg/B&R, Detective Comics/James Gordon) he goes into hardcore detective mode otherwise he thrives in his role as an uber confident thrill seeker, which is why he's more of a speed chess guy..
I believe Dick is on par with Tim when the chips are down and he's forced to get serious, in general it's obviously Tim. His critical thinking skills are a robotic 2nd nature to him now. He's methodical in everything he does. Nightwing takes my vote as the most efficient hero, since he possesses all the tools to get the job done and doesn't lack in any category. Tim is second, since he gets whipped by 10 yr olds and dropped out of Highschool and Jason is in a class of his own. Don't really know how to call that one yet.
I agree with most of what you said, but even when everyone gets serious I still think that Tim beats Dick.
"You lost the second I started trying"
The only time Damian ever beat Tim is because Tim wasn't trying. Damian is a very good fighter, but he is still 10.
Also I think Tim gets a "Get out of jail free" card on the dropping out of school since he did it to go find he thought-to-be-dead mentor and I'm sure he could easily get a GED if he wanted.
My Opinion: Tim then Dick/Jason. I can't really tell between the two of them. They are both excellent strategists, if I had to choose I'd say Dick (I think he has more computer skills that I've never seen Jason really have).
@SmoothJammin: I also agree with most of this, although i don't believe that he is way overshadowed, by Bruce yea but who isn't really when it comes to intellect? But Tim i don't. Yea i believe and a majority of readers believe that Tim is intellectually superior but only slightly. It can be argued as to who is the more intelligent of the two as Dick has more on the field experience, and the way i see it if it can be debated then it really isn't being way overshadowed.
Dick's the superhero Jason's the planner Tim's the detective Damien's the fighter Bruce is the jack of all trades, but each Robin is (or will be in time) the best at their respective trade.
Jason a better planner than Bruce? I agree with you regarding the others, but Bruce is THE planner, not just in the Bat-family, but in comics.
I agree with most of what you said, but even when everyone gets serious I still think that Tim beats Dick.
"You lost the second I started trying" The only time Damian ever beat Tim is because Tim wasn't trying. Damian is a very good fighter, but he is still 10. Also I think Tim gets a "Get out of jail free" card on the dropping out of school since he did it to go find he thought-to-be-dead mentor and I'm sure he could easily get a GED if he wanted. My Opinion: Tim then Dick/Jason. I can't really tell between the two of them. They are both excellent strategists, if I had to choose I'd say Dick (I think he has more computer skills that I've never seen Jason really have).
I disagree with some of your assessment and think what we saw in Gates was kind of PIS. The Nightwing oldschool readers know and love would never job to anyone, he has too much self confidence to humble himself to others. That's why I despise Red Robin version of Tim, he's a smartass know-it-all and writers like nicieza make him out to be just as flawless as Bruce. Dick Grayson and Tim Drake were Robins from two entirely different eras, for two entirely different reasons. You can't just go and discredit all those years Robin 1 served on duty because the middle child was gifted. It's a ridiculous analogy and I won't accept it. The classic Dynamic Duo is still the best imo, go read Hush or infinite crisis if you don't believe !
@SmoothJammin: It happens all the time, and while I do think Tim is a bit smarter than Dick, it's not as great a difference as the recent Red Robin series liked to imply. Tim just exceeds Dick in deductive reasoning and detective skills, aside from that, they're pretty well equal.
Dick is as close to Batman as you get right now, with the exception of Oracle. I don't see why you'd think he was less intelligent just because he takes risks.
If he looks less together than Jason, that's because he's being constantly put in the position of reacting to various villains while Jason gets to plan ahead. Tim is a great detective but that doesn't make him any more intelligent than Dick.
When they had to plan their attack it was all of them together, even Damian. But Dick was the one leading the meeting.
I think in terms of Grayson that it is important not to forget that he has social skills and leadership abilities, both of which rerpresent intelligence as well.
I think in terms of Grayson that it is important not to forget that he has social skills and leadership abilities, both of which rerpresent intelligence as well.
Good point. That's why this question is deceptive. It's like...well what kind of intelligence? Computers? Detective skills? Military tactics? Basic problem solving?
Skill and expertise is so wrapped up with intelligence it's impossible to really extrapolate the IQ of any of these characters.
@fodigg: Anotehr point is that if Dick was a real person in the real world, and if you had any problem requiring intelligence, I am pretty sure no one would say "don't listen to him, he's a moron."
Dick is a moron for returning to the same old Nightwing mantle. He didn't even try to improve the suit. I think he should go to the future and steal the Batman Beyond suit/armor:)
@Gambit1024: He's not the best at anything, really. Never has been. Largely why he's so disdainful of the other Robins now. He has an inferiority complex toward them. He's probably a slightly better fighter than any of them, because he has Damian's aggression, with Dick and Tim's experience. Though Bruce is of course a superior combatant.
Tim, the great detective is adept at analyzing and deducing after the fact, he can tell you what has occurred.
Jason, the planner is pro at predicting and preparing for what will occur.
Dick is a genius at adapting to the situation as it happens, he thinks on his feet, in real time as the situation occurs.
Tim is able to see the past... Jason is able to see the future... Dick is able to see the NOW... a skill all too often overlooked but highly valuable if you ask various Zen types or w/e.
(Obviously all 3 are able to do each to a high degree, I am merely pointing out who is strongest in each method).
I thought his revelation in B&R 14-15 about the virus Pyg released on Gotham was amazing. I can't stand when writers contrast him with Tim Drake and make him seem so inferior, to Damian even, sometimes.
Wow, being criticized for "insulting" Dick Grayson gave me an incentive to lead ComicVine alone for a year to get serious about my schoolwork, so I'm relieved it led to a positive dialogue about the perception of Dick's intelligence. It's niiiiice.
This is the first i've ever heard of Dicks intelligence ever being questioned.
Same here lol
@Gambit1024said:
Dick's the superhero Jason's the planner Tim's the detective Damien's the fighter Bruce is the jack of all trades, but each Robin is (or will be in time) the best at their respective trade.
I sort of agree. I think its best to say Dick's the best all around out of the three. He's the closest one to Bruce and the best suited to being Batman. Tim is the detective. Jason as the planner? Yeah I guess so, but we need to keep in mind more often than not that's because he has time to plan ahead before hand. Its not so much Bruce's "Be prepared for everything type planning", as it is him stacking the decks in his own favor when he knows what the situation will be.
@SmoothJammin
said:
@DPNugget said:
This is the first i've ever heard of Dicks intelligence ever being questioned.
You can't honestly say he isn't waaay overshadowed by Tim and Bruce's "intellectual prowess". To the point where viners only credit his combat skills/leadership above everything else. Thing is, Dick has achieved everything he knows through hardwork. Bats literally drilled him like a soldier on how to understand all the fundamentals of vigilantism. Thats where Dick excels. He is the most complete crimefighter in Batmans stead. Tim is a prodigy, which makes him something special but nowhere near as versatile as Dick. Nightwing is Batman greatest ally for a reason. He's always there to catch him.. Jason Todd has proven to be quite the journeyman, traveling the world, learning his own trade and expanding upon what he was taught as Robin. You can really tell that Jason wants to study and improve his game and he shares this distinction with Bruce. They're both tortured geniouses, the only difference being that Jason has crossed the line into insanity. On street smarts Jay is likely #1, just edging out Grayson. To vouch for Dick, I recommend reading Who is Donna Troy, The Judas Contract, A Lonely Place of Dying. When he's up against something huge(Professor Pyg/B&R, Detective Comics/James Gordon) he goes into hardcore detective mode otherwise he thrives in his role as an uber confident thrill seeker, which is why he's more of a speed chess guy.. I believe Dick is on par with Tim when the chips are down and he's forced to get serious, in general it's obviously Tim. His critical thinking skills are a robotic 2nd nature to him now. He's methodical in everything he does. Nightwing takes my vote as the most efficient hero, since he possesses all the tools to get the job done and doesn't lack in any category. Tim is second, since he gets whipped by 10 yr olds and dropped out of Highschool and Jason is in a class of his own. Don't really know how to call that one yet.
^This, this and this again. Overall, Dick is the best and most complete crimefighter. He's Bruces one true heir and has been drilled in everything Bruce knows. Tim does beat him as a detective, but thats not due to any failing on Dicks part. Thats imply due to Tim being a prodigy. Sometimes hard work and dedication just aren't a match for pure raw talent. Its not necessarily fair, but it is what it is. I'm not trying to lessen Tim's skills, i'm just pointing out that even with those skills he doesn't beat Dick by much. If given the exact same case, Tim would solve it first probably every single time. BUT, Dick would still solve the case. That's due to hard work, training and experience gained through the years. No amount of talent can replace wisdom.
In terms of Jason, he's gained his edge by studying under various teachers and learning various skills just like Bruce did, but if were ranking them in any way i'd still put him near the bottom.
In terms of crimefighting as a whole it'd be Dick>Tim>Jason>Damien. In terms of detective skills i'd say, Tim>Dick>Jason>Damien. Tim doesn't beat Dick by much, but he does pull a victory here. In terms of planning i'd say Jason>Dick>Tim>Damien. This is the area where I think Jason managed to truly shine. However, I can't help but think it needs to be made clear that again, Jason has the time to plan ahead, but Dick always reacts accordingly in the heat of the moment. Long term planning, Jason. Short term planning, Dick. Dick's a genius at adapting to the present situation, while Jason's an expert at predicting what might happen. In terms of fighting its a little tricky, but i'd say Jason>Dick>Tim>Damien. Jason's got the training and has focused a lot in that area, Dick has the training plus the experience. Tim has the training, but it isn't his specialty. Lacks Jason's aggresion and Dick's experience. And I wouldn't say Jason wins by much in this area.
@Nathaniel_Christopher: I have to disagree with Jason being a better fighter. In Battle for the Cowl (If I'm not mistaken) Jason and Dick fight, but Jason is only able to beat Dick because he has the home advantage. But when they got out in the open, Dick took him down fair and square, and Dick has beaten Ra's Al Ghul at hand to hand combat, something Batman struggled to do. In terms of planning, I'd put Tim on top. He took down the entire League of Assassins on his own dude, as much as I love Nightwing, I've never seen him do something like that before.
@Nathaniel_Christopher: I have to disagree with Jason being a better fighter. In Battle for the Cowl (If I'm not mistaken) Jason and Dick fight, but Jason is only able to beat Dick because he has the home advantage. But when they got out in the open, Dick took him down fair and square, and Dick has beaten Ra's Al Ghul at hand to hand combat, something Batman struggled to do. In terms of planning, I'd put Tim on top. He took down the entire League of Assassins on his own dude, as much as I love Nightwing, I've never seen him do something like that before.
Darn I forgot about their fight in Battle for the Cowl. You're right that does make it Dick>Jason>Tim>Damien
Its the same situation with Tim for Dick as it was with Jason. We've never really seen Dick do any long term, but short term he's a master. Like, I can't say one is any better than the other as it depends on the situation and your personality. Jason's just good at knowing how a situation's going to go. That's his skill.
I think that Dick is smart in a different way than say, Tim. Tim is more of a planner. He's calculating, decisive and thorough. Dick, on the other hand, is more of a reactive thinker. He seems to be able to react to any situation quickly and adapt, formulating a strategy based on whatever comes his way. He doesn't plan as much as others do, he thinks as he goes along. But he thinks more efficiently than Tim does, in my opinion. That's why he can get away with less planning.
I think that Dick is smart in a different way than say, Tim. Tim is more of a planner. He's calculating, decisive and thorough. Dick, on the other hand, is more of a reactive thinker. He seems to be able to react to any situation quickly and adapt, formulating a strategy based on whatever comes his way. He doesn't plan as much as others do, he thinks as he goes along. But he thinks more efficiently than Tim does, in my opinion. That's why he can get away with less planning.
I could see that, I guess. I think that Dick Grayson in terms of intelligence extends beyond that in some degree, but I think that its definitely a valid outlook.
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