Did Dick really beat Batman in a fight? Was there something contextual in place?

@mister_pimping: It was a fair fight in which they fought. Tho we dont know how hard batman was fighting even tho it seemed to be really Hard Core. Anyhow. Batman attacked Dick to test if he was still willing to survive the mission basically.

Fair enough, but I don't believe that Batman would use mind games on his opponents in a fair fight. He didn't use them against the likes of Shiva who was a legitimate threat.

Wasn't much mind games than it was just informing Dick on what he is going to put him through for the unseeable future

@nightwingism: Wasn't he putting down Dick by saying stuff like "I trained you to live. And you let the whole world see you die" or something like that. Batman said that it was meant to see if Dick will fight without breaking.

@mister_pimping: He was, but it wasn't really mind games. Like, I get what you mean when you say it was mind games, but it was more like Bruce having a conversation with himself, in regards to Dick, while Dick listened. And while they exchanged blows. He wanted Dick to react and to fight as hard as he could, which is where I understand the mind game part, but he wasn't trying to trick him or persuade him to do something, or anything like that. It was "Hey Dick. This is what you are going to do. I trained to you win, and that's what you're going to do. One rule though, you have to win"

@nightwingism: I meant it as in saying stuff to to break Dick's will. Batman said that is what he was going to do. What do you think?

According to Tom King himself in a podcast (I'll have to go back and find it for you), yes he beat Batman. Considering the state of the Batcave (it was basically ruined), it was a serious fight that Dick won. And left Bruce with some bandages. There's no contextual thing people are missing. There was plot sure but it didn't make Batman hold back at all.

@frozen Any thoughts? Please answer if possible.

NO. bruce was just testing/pushing dick as a test. THAT IS ALL

@ianrogers: Curious, what makes you think that? Despite what the author himself said on the matter

I read the comic.

Dick won, and why does that matter? IMO Dick is better.

But it was an all out fight. The test was, to see if Dick could win with the odds staked against him. And that's what he did. It's not like Bruce held back. And Dick did get the final punch in, with Bruce giving up

I don't know about anything contextual, but here's how the fight ends

Gallery

Both of them are left beaten, battered, and bleeding. But the fight doesn't really end with either as the victor. Dick gets the last punch in, when Bruce got a similar blow in on him right before, and Bruce then calls the fight to an end. I therefore don't feel there's any clear victor. Way I read it, Bruce didn't end the fight because he couldn't go on anymore and Dick didn't knock him out or anything, he ended it because the test (Which was just as much physical as verbal) was over and he'd found out what he needed to: that Dick could handle what he had planned and that his will was intact after Forever Evil.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@mister_pimping said:

Did Dick really beat Batman in a fight? Was there something contextual in place?

I don't know about anything contextual, but here's how the fight ends

Gallery

Both of them are left beaten, battered, and bleeding. But the fight doesn't really end with either as the victor. Dick gets the last punch in, when Bruce got a similar blow in on him right before, and Bruce then calls the fight to an end. I therefore don't feel there's any clear victor. Way I read it, Bruce didn't end the fight because he couldn't go on anymore and Dick didn't knock him out or anything, he ended it because the test (Which was just as much physical as verbal) was over and he'd found out what he needed to: that Dick could handle what he had planned and that his will was intact after Forever Evil.

This is what I thought. All Nightwing did was knock Batman to the ground. Bruce was still capable of getting back up and keep going. This fight was inconclusive.

That is incorrect. Read the comicbook again.

Which part? Bruce didn't hold back, Dick got the final punch, Bruce gave up. It was an all out fight. And it was also a test

It was a test. Therefore Bruce obviously did not go all out. The context behind that fight is that Bruce is trying to convince Dick to take on the spy mission. How did that get lost upon you?

The fact that Bruce himself said his entire opening monologue:

"How many time have we done this? How many rules have I given you?"

"Where you fight. How you fight. We've done this so many times. We've had so many rules. We need to do it again. You and me."

"So, one more time, Dick. But now there's only one rule... You have to win."

He is saying unequivocally, "We are going to fight, with no rules. And you have to win." There is no way around that statement, unless you can find context clues to back up your claim. It was an all out fight, and I don't understand what kind of bat-god you've been reading if you can't believe Dick was able to get the final punch unless Bruce went easy on him

...yea, those words don't help your cause one bit. In no words is he saying at all that its a full out no holding back fight. He's just saying theres no rules to this test. And thats all it is. A test. In the end Bruce got exactly what he wanted and he knew he would. He got Dick to take on the mission he knew he would convince Dick to take.

By having no rules in a fight means there is no guidelines to follow. Nothing to say "oh no that would be an illegal move". He said they have spared before, but with rules. And I'm sure they wouldn't be flinging each other around the bat-cave how they were if there were rules in place. The fact that he said "only one rule... you have to win." Is the indicator that it is an all out fight. Read the comic again

Wrong. There is a guideline. The guideline is that Bruce is using his brain. Everything he does and says is geared toward him convincing/manipulating Dick into doing his bidding. Read the comics again.

@ianrogers: If that was the case, Bruce is never going all out in any fight ever against anyone in any situation because "he is using his brain". Read the comic again, you'd know that he was having a one sided conversation with himself. But just because he was convincing Dick into doing the mission doesn't mean the fight was exclusively that. It was an all out fight and Bruce tried to convince him to do the mission.

I don't see why you don't think it can be both

Nope. All he was doing was manipulating Dick. Sorry.

He did, textbook definition, manipulate Dick. He made Dick do something he did not want to do, but convinced him to do it otherwise. However, if all he did was manipulate, that means they didn't fight. Because "all he was doing" means just that. And obviously, if you look at the entire 2nd act of this comic, it's a fight. And there are posts in this forum showing pictures of them fighting. Dick is bleeding from being thrown into the Jason memorial case, Bruce and Dick were flung around onto the bat-boat, bat-mobile, bat-plane, and even the T-Rex and just wrecking the whole place in general. If your idea of manipulating involves blood and gore, and whatever else happened in your eyes in this comic, then yeah sure, all he did was manipulate.

But, in the eyes of any reasonable person with common sense would know that this fight was totally an all out fight, and while there was manipulation involved, it doesn't exclude one or the other. He did, manipulate, and he did have an all out fight.

Yea, no. Bruce used this little skirmish just to get Dick to do what he wanted. He never had in mind just a full fledged fight. Thats ridiculous.

Oh wow! Dick beat Bruce!!

Yup

It was either a stalemate or Dick won and if we're to go off of this battle then it appears that Batman and Nightwing are quite a bit closer in the New 52 than they are pre-52. However, it's fair to question the validity of this considering the writers seemed to just be trying to see how much destruction and onomatopoeia they could fit in an issue.

No Dick didn't beat Bruce. Bruce just stopped fighting plain and simple. There was no clear winner technically Dick didn't really beat Bruce. The whole fight was to test and see if Dick would give up and he passed that's why Bruce just stopped fighting.

how did the debate go on for so long when this answered the questions right there....

Dick won get over it.

Batman was preparing Dick for the future. It technically ended in a tie since they both called an end to the fight which seemed pretty even.

Here's one of the the podcast in which Tom King discusses the spar scene in Nightwing #30 (starts at about 42:30) and he describes it as "extremely difficult" on both ends. So no, there's none of this "holding back" business or manipulation tactic. Batman did also quit at the end.....that makes Dick the victor. Not in a KOed superior opponent kind of way but a win is a win. And again, the Batcave was destroyed.

Because people have a hard time believing when Dick does anything serious in the realm of fighting?

@jayaaerow: I don't think anyone is discrediting Dick's ability to fight. Yes he is very good and I will agree with you a Win is a Win, but lets' not go as far to say Dick "BEAT" Bruce when we clearly see he just stopped fighting and gave the win to Dick. Although your right a win is a win. LOL I beat you when they fight again Bruce will just mop the floor with him hahahaaha.

@stormphoenix:

To beat someone means to "Defeat (someone) in a game or other competitive situation" and to defeat means "Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest"

So you can say he did beat him . But I think everyone takes it in a context that makes it seem like Dick punch his lights out or something. He did win/beat Batman But not in this "he outclassed him" or "was overall better" like some people are getting the idea of for some reason. Bruce stood down and Dick won the day. That's it. Nothing more.

I'm sure Bruce could beat that Dick if he went hard enough.

Idk didn't read it but one fight doesn't mean you would win the majority

Yea I agree with that.

Thank god! I referred to this comment and after a while, I thought I was just making it up

Batman gave up, and the Bat-cave was a huge mess. It was a hard core fight for sure. I don't think anyone was holding back. Also, Dick stated "I win," followed by Batman putting his arm around Dick's shoulder. So, it wasn't a "someone-must-land-in-the-hospital-for-a-winner-to-emerge" fight. It was more of a "test-of-endurance-and-will" fight. Also, one of the authors stated that Dick won, so there's that