Dick has lost everything he's worked for

#1 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

1) Bludhaven is gone (the story, I mean).

2) The original Titans are gone, along with most of his experience (see above)

3) "Batman Reborn" has been compromised

4) Damian's dead.

Is Dick still the first sidekick turned solo hero? Does being the "first sidekick" carry the same weight anymore?

Hmm. More later.

#2 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't he supposed to be going to Chicago?

#3 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

Isn't he supposed to be going to Chicago?

yup

#4 Posted by AllStarSuperman (22973 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74: yup. I really thought his whole circus in Gotham was awesome though.

#5 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

Isn't he supposed to be going to Chicago?

yup

Ok,thanks.

#6 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@AllStarSuperman said:

@evilvegeta74: yup. I really thought his whole circus in Gotham was awesome though.

It's sad that things turned out that way, You can really say he's lost more than Bruce, including Damian.

#7 Posted by AllStarSuperman (22973 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

@AllStarSuperman said:

@evilvegeta74: yup. I really thought his whole circus in Gotham was awesome though.

It's sad that things turned out that way, You can really say he's lost more than Bruce, including Damian.

Yup I hope he stays him self and doesn't go dark though

#8 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

#9 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@AllStarSuperman said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

@AllStarSuperman said:

@evilvegeta74: yup. I really thought his whole circus in Gotham was awesome though.

It's sad that things turned out that way, You can really say he's lost more than Bruce, including Damian.

Yup I hope he stays him self and doesn't go dark though

me too!

#10 Edited by soduh2 (866 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

#11 Posted by Xwraith (21410 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr: I still think it's a safe bet to say who's lost the most...

#12 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: Congrats for the 700th! Hmm, I'm not sure about Tim and Jason, but I'll agree with you on this. Dick is among those that lost a lot.

#13 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xwraith: Yeah...New52 is giving a hard time to Ollie's fans. He's not among my fave heroes, but I don't like what they did to him. No respect at all.

#14 Posted by havoc1201 (521 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

#15 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

#16 Posted by Nightwing4 (373 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep. Higgins needs to get something going or everyone reading Nightwing is going to have to go on Abilify (Antidepressant)

That being said, I like the way Higgins writes the character, its just these crossovers haven't been too kind.

#17 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

The Lady Shiva connection as well.

#18 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

#19 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

#20 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

Oh, right. :)

#21 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

#22 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

He does. Apparently Aquaman has made hints as to his existence. I haven't been reading it, though, so I can't say what exactly has happened.

And yeah, we know Dick worked with Starfire and Arsenal in some capacity, but we don't know how much

#23 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

Arsenal mentioned Victor and Garth while talking to Starfire.

#24 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

Arsenal said mentioned Victor and Garth while talking to Starfire.

Yeah, but that was very early in the series, back before they decided that Tim's Titans were the first version. This was the same time period when Tim mentioned being Robin and the fact that Dick led the Teen Titans back in the day.

#25 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@nmiller1939 said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

Arsenal said mentioned Victor and Garth while talking to Starfire.

Yeah, but that was very early in the series, back before they decided that Tim's Titans were the first version. This was the same time period when Tim mentioned being Robin and the fact that Dick led the Teen Titans back in the day.

still no real evidence to the contrary, DC edited out Tim mentioning these things in subsequent reprints whereas if im not mistaken they haven't done so with RHATO

#26 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@havoc1201 said:

@soduh2 said:

@Phaedrusgr said:

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

Some (like Dick) lost more than others. In fact, Jason and Tim seems to have gained a lot of what Dick lost.

700th post!

Tim actually lost a lot, he lost his true origin which they gave some of it to Dick, he lost his close relationship with Dick something i truly miss for both characters, also he is a lesser character now and is very secluded from the Bat Fam. I mean he and Jason are the closest which makes no sense at all.

What Tim traits were given to Dick? Oh, you mean figuring out Batman's identity? I would chock that up to Dick's body reading. Body language was Cassie's forte, no? I see what you mean though.

His founding status as a Titan, for one. That was an essential part of Dick's story...I mean, Dick became a real character in Wolfman's Titans series, and now Tim has that, while Jason has his former teammates. Seriously, Dick excelled as a team player, and he was at his best (aside from his time as Batman) when he was on the fringe of the Batman franchise. Tim, on the other hand, was his best when he was with the Batman franchise. Young Justice was good, and his Titans run was okay, but he was better in Gotham. Why they decided to reverse that is a mystery to me.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

This isn't exactly accurate. Nightwing and Cyborg haven't met on-panel yet. Does Garth even exist in the New52?

Arsenal said mentioned Victor and Garth while talking to Starfire.

Yeah, but that was very early in the series, back before they decided that Tim's Titans were the first version. This was the same time period when Tim mentioned being Robin and the fact that Dick led the Teen Titans back in the day.

still no real evidence to the contrary, DC edited out Tim mentioning these things in subsequent reprints whereas if im not mistaken they haven't done so with RHATO

That's fair. I just feel that the veracity of that is questionable at this point.

#27 Edited by DurararaFTW (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering it's Starfire that was the one who remembered those times and she has under the same pen said that Jason is her very first platonic friend in the world, we can be sure those adventures didn't mean anything. Yes, there was a team but they were absolutely nothing like the family we remember.

#28 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

You forgot Lady Shiva also kicked the crap out of him while he was injured.....

#29 Edited by Theorder14 (1607 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

#30 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson, Wally West, Donna Troy, Roy Harper, Garth, Gar Logan, Raven- How is it that Cyborg is the only character from the glorious New Teen Titans run to come out of Flashpoint the better for it? Every character I mentioned has either been changed so much they're a shadow of their former selves (Dick, Roy, Gar) or put on a bus and sent into a black hole (Wally, Donna, Garth, Raven)

#31 Posted by SmoothJammin (2348 posts) - - Show Bio

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

#32 Edited by entropy_aegis (15438 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14 said:

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

They're trying to make all the Robins interchangeable,they all wear red,2 of them have been trained by Shiva(Tim also in the previous continuity),Jason now works with Kory and Roy who are Dick's pals,Wally,Donna and Garth are nowhere to be seen,Drake was Olympic level athlete bla bla.

Dick and Tim have been hurt the most,Jason Todd has benefited immensely and it's cause he was the most underdeveloped character of them all so they decided to go the easy route.I really like Jason nowadays but he was and still remains a parasite since his resurrection.Every single ounce of character development he has gotten has been at the expense of other characters.

#33 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

@smoothjammin said:

@theorder14 said:

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

They're trying to make all the Robins interchangeable,they all wear red,2 of them have been trained by Shiva(Tim also in the previous continuity),Jason now works with Kory and Roy who are Dick's pals,Wally,Donna and Garth are nowhere to be seen,Drake was Olympic level athlete bla bla.

Dick and Tim have been hurt the most,Jason Todd has benefited immensely and it's cause he was the most underdeveloped character of them all so they decided to go the easy route.I really like Jason nowadays but he was and still remains a parasite since his resurrection.Every single ounce of character development he has gotten has been at the expense of other characters.

Completely agree with that, but I have to say that Dick's been hurt more than Tim, and some of the benefits Tim's gained, like with Jason, came directly from hurting Dick's character.

#34 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@smoothjammin said:

@theorder14 said:

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

They're trying to make all the Robins interchangeable,they all wear red,2 of them have been trained by Shiva(Tim also in the previous continuity),Jason now works with Kory and Roy who are Dick's pals,Wally,Donna and Garth are nowhere to be seen,Drake was Olympic level athlete bla bla.

Dick and Tim have been hurt the most,Jason Todd has benefited immensely and it's cause he was the most underdeveloped character of them all so they decided to go the easy route.I really like Jason nowadays but he was and still remains a parasite since his resurrection.Every single ounce of character development he has gotten has been at the expense of other characters.

Completely agree with that, but I have to say that Dick's been hurt more than Tim, and some of the benefits Tim's gained, like with Jason, came directly from hurting Dick's character.

Agreed. And yet, in spite of that, the character is still pulling his own title. I agree that this all hurts but I think it also speaks to the power that Grayson's character has that he can still sustain his own title despite all of the changes (at the very least, it says that he has a loyal fanbase). I think he can be restored to his former glory, though. Just needs some more interaction with other DC characters. I'd love to see him talk to Supes (well...not sure if that old admiration that Dick had for Supes is even valid anymore). He's kind of a free agent now with Gotham behind him for the moment. He just needs to go on a world tour and start meeting random superheros

#35 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@smoothjammin said:

@theorder14 said:

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

They're trying to make all the Robins interchangeable,they all wear red,2 of them have been trained by Shiva(Tim also in the previous continuity),Jason now works with Kory and Roy who are Dick's pals,Wally,Donna and Garth are nowhere to be seen,Drake was Olympic level athlete bla bla.

Dick and Tim have been hurt the most,Jason Todd has benefited immensely and it's cause he was the most underdeveloped character of them all so they decided to go the easy route.I really like Jason nowadays but he was and still remains a parasite since his resurrection.Every single ounce of character development he has gotten has been at the expense of other characters.

Completely agree with that, but I have to say that Dick's been hurt more than Tim, and some of the benefits Tim's gained, like with Jason, came directly from hurting Dick's character.

Agreed. And yet, in spite of that, the character is still pulling his own title. I agree that this all hurts but I think it also speaks to the power that Grayson's character has that he can still sustain his own title despite all of the changes (at the very least, it says that he has a loyal fanbase). I think he can be restored to his former glory, though. Just needs some more interaction with other DC characters. I'd love to see him talk to Supes (well...not sure if that old admiration that Dick had for Supes is even valid anymore). He's kind of a free agent now with Gotham behind him for the moment. He just needs to go on a world tour and start meeting random superheros

As long as the world tour is tastefully done and leads up to something epic and well written. We don't want Dick to just start making cameos in everyone else's books, because that'd be tacky and make him look like Wolverine (Who is, and always has been one of m favorite Marvel characters, but they're killing him by overusing him.)

#36 Posted by Jake7696 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

Poor Dick :(

#37 Edited by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@smoothjammin said:

@theorder14 said:

Shiva said that they would meet again and she expects more from him so hopefully, he will improve his martial artist.

My buddy shot me a message the other night and told me Shiva has apparently trained Red Hood over in the latest issue of Outlaws. Suddenly the idea of special private lessons from Shiva has lost all it's appeal. I don't even know who Jason is anymore.

They're trying to make all the Robins interchangeable,they all wear red,2 of them have been trained by Shiva(Tim also in the previous continuity),Jason now works with Kory and Roy who are Dick's pals,Wally,Donna and Garth are nowhere to be seen,Drake was Olympic level athlete bla bla.

Dick and Tim have been hurt the most,Jason Todd has benefited immensely and it's cause he was the most underdeveloped character of them all so they decided to go the easy route.I really like Jason nowadays but he was and still remains a parasite since his resurrection.Every single ounce of character development he has gotten has been at the expense of other characters.

Completely agree with that, but I have to say that Dick's been hurt more than Tim, and some of the benefits Tim's gained, like with Jason, came directly from hurting Dick's character.

Agreed. And yet, in spite of that, the character is still pulling his own title. I agree that this all hurts but I think it also speaks to the power that Grayson's character has that he can still sustain his own title despite all of the changes (at the very least, it says that he has a loyal fanbase). I think he can be restored to his former glory, though. Just needs some more interaction with other DC characters. I'd love to see him talk to Supes (well...not sure if that old admiration that Dick had for Supes is even valid anymore). He's kind of a free agent now with Gotham behind him for the moment. He just needs to go on a world tour and start meeting random superheros

As long as the world tour is tastefully done and leads up to something epic and well written. We don't want Dick to just start making cameos in everyone else's books, because that'd be tacky and make him look like Wolverine (Who is, and always has been one of m favorite Marvel characters, but they're killing him by overusing him.)

I meant moreso in his own series. Something like he starts travelling after this Chicago arc and the book starts focusing on him building relationships with the larger superhero community/fighting crime in different places. So you'd havea mini-arc in Metropolis, etc.

One a side note, DC Animated Movies should revive the canceled Judas Contract project that they had. That would raise DGs status even more.

Also, I was thinking the other day and realized that EVERY Bat-character has a team book except for the one who most deserves it: Dick Grayson. Think about it. The only argument that could be made is that Batwoman doesn't have one but I don't consider her part of the BatFamily. She just happens to wear a cowl in Gotham. Even CATWOMAN is in a team book -_-. I am seriously starting to wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy against DG at DC

#38 Edited by GeoKnowsBest (37 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:
I am seriously starting to wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy against DG at DC

Dan Didio has had a death fetish for Grayson for years now. He's wanted to kill him since Infinite Crisis, no joke.

#39 Edited by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:
I am seriously starting to wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy against DG at DC

Dan Didio has had a death fetish for Grayson for years now. He's wanted to kill him since Infinite Crisis, no joke.

So I've heard. I don't think they will kill him but honestly don't understand the decisions DC has been making recently with regards to their Robins. I have no problem wanting to improve characters but not at the expense of another. Stuff they did like changing Tim's background to being an Olympic -level athlete was unecessary to me. Part of what made Tim awesome was that he brought something different to the table and really had to bust his butt to become good at fighting. It was something that differentiated the Robins. And now with Jason......sigh. I have never been a huge fan of him but he makes me especially angry now as, imo, a DG-knockoff.

#40 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: Actually I don't think Dick ever had any adventures with Cyborg. In the Justice League series Cyborg just became Cyborg and was a Justice League member after.

#41 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13626 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: Actually I don't think Dick ever had any adventures with Cyborg. In the Justice League series Cyborg just became Cyborg and was a Justice League member after.

technically they could have still had adventures together, just not under the Teen Titans name.

#42 Posted by thesonofneptune101 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: I see what your saying, actually Roy Harper mentions a group of people who him and Starfire use to hang out with .

#43 Posted by JayAaerow (471 posts) - - Show Bio

I completely agree. To me, Nightwing always gets the short end of the stick for some really weird reason. Seriously, I've seen him take on Deathstroke so many times and he always does good but it gets interrupted. Back when he was in the TT series, he fought Chesire and did extremely well(Who was considered the second deadliest assassin to Lady Shiva), but all the time the battle was interrupted when he gained the upperhand. The only actual good showing of him doing something is beating Shrike and Ras Al Ghul. And I completely agree with Jason. Jason gets his best friend, love interest, and to top it all off, a Teacher which could Batman look like a 10 year old handicap! Come on! Jason really needs his own thing in my opinion and writers need to stop leeching things to him from Tim(Shiva as a Teacher) & Nightwing(Friends). I have no clue why DC has something with him. They say he's officially second to batman but do we ever see that? NO! We see him get knocked on his ass a lot, though by Cass(There was that one time he actually did good with her and was serious...but then Alfred came in! and where he one shotted Cass too...but im not sure if that counts). They didn't mind giving Tim the ability to best Ras Al Ghul or being a Olympic in New 52. And sure as hell didn't mind giving Jason a Teacher like Shiva and Dick's best friend and former love interest. The ONLY good thing that they gave him so far, in my opinion, is Lady Shiva possibly being a villain for him.(I find that cool but maybe next time, he wont fight her with injuries from the previous issues? He put up a good fight and all for someone injured and was certainly better than that one kick he suffered Pre-52 and got knocked into a daze before fighting other ninjas but he still got beaten up and was injured in the first place...which made the fight very one-sided....not a hint of hope he could do something! )

#44 Posted by DEGRAAF (7912 posts) - - Show Bio

@AllStarSuperman said:

@evilvegeta74: yup. I really thought his whole circus in Gotham was awesome though.

It's sad that things turned out that way, You can really say he's lost more than Bruce, including Damian.

It seemed inevitable that if Dick built Haleys Circus in Gotham the Joker and or Two-face would do something to destroy it. I cant say i knew that it would be gone for good but it is poor writing of the character for him to be so smart but not think the clown prince of crime wouldnt mess with a circus or that two-face (used to know his identity i think) wouldnt mess with him again OR EVEN THE COURT OF OWL'S would likely mess with him and the circus considering that was one of the places they used to get recruits from

It's New52, guys. Everybody's lost something. We can't put them on the scale! Let's hope, they have great stories to tell in their minds.

not many have lost more then Dick besides the ones that got totally rebooted and in some cases that might have been better to just reboot the sidekicks all together rather then separate all of Dick's history and experiences and give it to the others

#45 Edited by DEGRAAF (7912 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xwraith: Yeah...New52 is giving a hard time to Ollie's fans. He's not among my fave heroes, but I don't like what they did to him. No respect at all.

Maybe they screw Ollie up bad enough that they end up pulling a Nick Fury move and bring in another. They could reverse the move and say that Ollie senior has been out in the world training and the one we see know is a stand in or a son or an impostor.

to be fair, Dick still had adventures with most Cyborg, Starfire, Arsenal, Tempest and the like, they just never called themselves the Titans. Tim just met his Titans teammates.

Do we know that for sure? We know he ran with Starfire and Arsenal and "others" but we dont know exactly who. We havent seen Tempest, Wally, or Donna yet and as far as we know Cyborg was always with the Justice League. I like to believe he was with them all but its hard to say for sure.

Agreed. And yet, in spite of that, the character is still pulling his own title. I agree that this all hurts but I think it also speaks to the power that Grayson's character has that he can still sustain his own title despite all of the changes (at the very least, it says that he has a loyal fanbase). I think he can be restored to his former glory, though. Just needs some more interaction with other DC characters. I'd love to see him talk to Supes (well...not sure if that old admiration that Dick had for Supes is even valid anymore). He's kind of a free agent now with Gotham behind him for the moment. He just needs to go on a world tour and start meeting random superheros

I would love to see the conversation during Dick's superhero transition with Superman be reinstated. I would like to see him travel and meet more heroes as well. I would be a perfect time for him during Forever Evil.

@geoknowsbest said:

@vernierhawk001 said:
I am seriously starting to wonder if there is some sort of conspiracy against DG at DC

Dan Didio has had a death fetish for Grayson for years now. He's wanted to kill him since Infinite Crisis, no joke.

So I've heard. I don't think they will kill him but honestly don't understand the decisions DC has been making recently with regards to their Robins. I have no problem wanting to improve characters but not at the expense of another. Stuff they did like changing Tim's background to being an Olympic -level athlete was unecessary to me. Part of what made Tim awesome was that he brought something different to the table and really had to bust his butt to become good at fighting. It was something that differentiated the Robins. And now with Jason......sigh. I have never been a huge fan of him but he makes me especially angry now as, imo, a DG-knockoff.

Yeah they all excelled in different aspects of Batmans attributes

Dick - Fighting

Tim - Detective Skills

Jason - Anger and focus for Justice and instilling fear into his enemy

Damien - His strive for perfection like his father

@avenging_x_bolt: I see what your saying, actually Roy Harper mentions a group of people who him and Starfire use to hang out with .

Who's Lilith? I wish they would elaborate on this more in either RHATO or Nightwing.

#46 Posted by Dernman (15711 posts) - - Show Bio

@degraaf said:

Who's Lilith? I wish they would elaborate on this more in either RHATO or Nightwing.

Lilith Clay aka Omen. Pre 52 she was a Teen Titan. Post 52 Harvest got ahold of her and turned her evil.

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