Dick Grayson's True Love: Barbara Gordon or Starfire?

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#101 Posted by WonderHunter (121 posts) - - Show Bio

They're both too good for him. :\ Sorry, but i'm a fan of both girls and that's how i feel about it :) He can be a very good character, but when it comes to romance .... the guy is better off without committing to anyone. Let him have good girl friends, very good friends, and that's it :)

#102 Edited by bilwit (7 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole Babs thing is too played out and has run its course. I hope they never go back to it. The book has been closed on Kori as well, especially now that she's "been with" Jason and Roy.. it just makes it awkward and weird now. I think Helena/Huntress is his match, though I'm not sure how the New 52 "Wayne"/Earth 2 thing changes that. She challenges him in authority/ego and perspective and is not clingy enough for him to revolve around. They don't have to have a serious/committed/marriage type of relationship but more of an understanding which is the type of thing that fits him.

#103 Posted by Teerack (6606 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither.

Online
#104 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

Tarantula.

#105 Posted by RBchaos (28 posts) - - Show Bio

It's been a long time and during the years there's been a lot of changes when it comes to characters and storylines but I'm gonna say Barbara is Dick's best match.

#106 Posted by AndreggvilJammer (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara is made for Dick, period.

Just a year or two before, I was a huge Dick/Kory shipper. Anything that had to do with Dick/Babs pissed me off like hell, but I came around, after looking at the many things that wouldn't work in their relationship, if they were to have one. Yes, it would work, in a way, but not for long - there are just too many problems and flaws to it.

Every relationship would have flaws to it - what Dick and Babs have with each other is no exception. But there is an understanding between them - the responsibility that comes with the cowl, etc. 'Course, there's also the long history they'd had together.

#107 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

lol Kori and Dick have had a longer history than Barbara and Dick, at least Pre-Flashpoint anyways. Heck it even seems to be the same Post-Flashpoint, with them having had some type of relationship in the past, yet there's been no confirmation if Dick or Babs have ever been together in the new univese.

#108 Posted by Black_Claw (2996 posts) - - Show Bio

Really tough for me, but I'm going with Starfire on this one.

#109 Posted by SweetyTaste (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Come On! Everyone Knows that Dick and Starfire made for each other...In the comic book you will see that Dick says that he doesn't love her (anymore) but you will also read that he didn't mean it...

-And i really Love this couple from 8 years old from Teen Titans series!

#110 Edited by TekTheNinja (766 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm in the minority in this one, but i have to say Starfire.

#111 Posted by AColombia (102 posts) - - Show Bio

@sweetytaste: what do you mean he didn't mean it? Trust I love them together they're my OTP but he said no when she asked if he loved her in a forever way :/ what makes u think he didn't mean it?

#112 Posted by bosshobo1 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

my opinion but I highly believe nightwing and starfire is wwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyy better

#113 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

It's amazing how they just repeat the same plot lines for this couple over and over again.

#114 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

These are scans from Batman Beyond 2.0, and they deal with the reason why Dick eventually stopped staying in Gotham, and never got back together with Barbara after he did return. And it basically tells the final falling out between Dick and Bruce, and why you never see Dick in the Beyond Universe. They reveal that after he'd moved to Bludhaven, he came back to Gotham, and did in fact get with Barbara for a time. However, a lot changed in Gotham during the years he was away after leaving the Robin mantle behind, and the fallout from those things is still taking place:

To sum it up, after Dick was back in Gotham for a few weeks, Barbara discovered she was 7 weeks pregnant. This of course was longer than Dick had been back in Gotham, so it couldn't be his, which only leaves one person who could possibly be the father. Bruce. Bruce tells Barbara to do whatever she thinks is best, but he ends up confronting Dick himself, and that goes about as well as you'd expect.

@smoothjammin @alak @richardjohngrayson @jayaaerow @redwingx @ritchieb @vernierhawk001

Any thoughts? I can personally say this exact situation is part of why the Bruce/Barbara relationship from back then sickened me when I was younger, and still creeps me out now. Though this of course was never revealed in the show itself, part of me always suspected that the relationship had a part to play in why Dick left Gotham for good and never came back, because there was no way he was ever going to accept that. I still find it unbelievable that the writers back then actually even allowed the relationship to happen at all. I think it doesn't help that this happened in a tv show that many of us saw as kids, and what's more BTAS, TNBA, and BB arguably have one of the best, and most applauded adaptations of Batman ever. So to then have this take place in it tarnishes it in a way.

#115 Posted by Alak (926 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh snap... that would be a pretty convincing reason as to why Dick decided to cut himself out of the bat-family. I never liked the whole Bruce-Barbara angle to begin with, but now I really hate it lol.

#116 Posted by richardjohngrayson (435 posts) - - Show Bio

These are scans from Batman Beyond 2.0, and they deal with the reason why Dick eventually stopped staying in Gotham, and never got back together with Barbara after he did return. And it basically tells the final falling out between Dick and Bruce, and why you never see Dick in the Beyond Universe. They reveal that after he'd moved to Bludhaven, he came back to Gotham, and did in fact get with Barbara for a time. However, a lot changed in Gotham during the years he was away after leaving the Robin mantle behind, and the fallout from those things is still taking place:

To sum it up, after Dick was back in Gotham for a few weeks, Barbara discovered she was 7 weeks pregnant. This of course was longer than Dick had been back in Gotham, so it couldn't be his, which only leaves one person who could possibly be the father. Bruce. Bruce tells Barbara to do whatever she thinks is best, but he ends up confronting Dick himself, and that goes about as well as you'd expect.

@smoothjammin @alak @richardjohngrayson @jayaaerow @redwingx @ritchieb @vernierhawk001

Any thoughts? I can personally say this exact situation is part of why the Bruce/Barbara relationship from back then sickened me when I was younger, and still creeps me out now. Though this of course was never revealed in the show itself, part of me always suspected that the relationship had a part to play in why Dick left Gotham for good and never came back, because there was no way he was ever going to accept that. I still find it unbelievable that the writers back then actually even allowed the relationship to happen at all. I think it doesn't help that this happened in a tv show that many of us saw as kids, and what's more BTAS, TNBA, and BB arguably have one of the best, and most applauded adaptations of Batman ever. So to then have this take place in it tarnishes it in a way.

It for sure makes me dislike the BTAS Bruce/Batman. Batman is my second favorite character in comics(Dick Grayson being my favorite) but the BTAS Bruce is a scumbag for doing that to Dick. I like the story and don't mind the BTAS take on the Batverse. It is a different universe with different events and rules. Kyle Higgins is doing an amazing job on the book.

#117 Posted by I3IO_HAZARD (403 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara/Dick for me

Starfire has always been a relatively meh character for me

#118 Posted by JayAaerow (453 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: Lol. You wanna know my thoughts? Okay! :3

Starting off, I really loved Batman the Animated Series. It was incredibly well done, kept Batman grounded & didn't make him to BatGod stuff, lot of detective stuff, & much much more. That show is the epitome of what I would mostly expect from a comic-based animated series!

However, I did have some problems with the show. When I got older, I noticed they did pair up Barbara with Bruce. Most terrible move in the world. Must of been a fluke when they thought of that mess. And then put that in a Batman Beyond episode. Like really, Bruce dating the girl his adopted son likes? It's a slap to Dick & James Gordon too! I don't think he'd ever approve of that. You'd think he take into the account of how his friends feel. Nope. This show always cemented the fact Bruce is just a jerk. That's one of my major flaws with that show. I'm one of those people that think Bruce is just troubled but loves his family! Anyone else writing otherwise need to sit down and read the important stuff of Batman and not just his epic achievements! I also hated how they made Dick so angesty! It helps those who don't like Grayson & he came off as a whiny brat sometimes. I still liked his awesome times with Tim and Barbara when they decided to not worry about his relationship with Bruce for an episode. The show was near perfect, just killed that family dynamic I loved.

I read this myself last week & my hatred for the Babs/Bruce ship skyrocketed! Bruce was willing to sleep with the girl his adopted son liked, knowing full well that If he found out he would beat his *** to a pulp? And would be really mad? That's just not the Bruce I enjoy reading. But it is a different universe. That universe seems to want to make the Batfamily the most awkward thing to ever happen. XD When Kyle Higgins wrote that, I was like "WTF?!?!?!?". I'm not really mad at the book itself. The story was tackled by a flashback and for the the characters, it is just as awkward for them as it is for me.

Overall, I hate that ship with a malice because it seems to go against both characters and makes them look like jerks. I mean, what person sleeps with their adopted son's ex? And why would the ex, who still clearly has strong feeling for the adopted son, sleep with the adoptive dad? And Barbara wonders why it's hard for Dick to talk to her. Cause she still wants to be friends. Poor Grayson in that universe. One could only imagine how James would feel in this sitation. I only feel bad that we might never see his reaction. Poor James too!

But I liked the story overall. It is shocking, dramatic, & made me react! And the character feel just as awkward about it as I do. Well done story! Kyle Higgins is really an amazing writer and his Batman Beyond 2.0 just proves what he's capable of If DC's Editorial stayed their butts out of his business & let the expert write since he clearly knew what he was doing. All those times he was limited on Nightwing just make me mad to think DC does that to writers for such a surprisingly popular book. And kicking him off of Deathstroke? Man! Not their best idea since that book went down after him being kicked off! A shame. A darn shame. Kyle Higgins was great. He did his research, wasn't the type of writer who went in and changed for the sake of change, & was pretty nice.

One thing I hope is never adapt this into the canon universe in anyway possible. I don't like Babs shipped out to anyone else then Dick in the Batfamily. It be waaaaaaaaaaaay to awkward and be incredibly hard to write off as a overall good thing. If they ever wanna ship her to someone else, it'd have to be somone not in the batfamily. That right there just cemented my stance on that!

#119 Edited by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

lol Kori and Dick have had a longer history than Barbara and Dick, at least Pre-Flashpoint anyways.

Barbara/Dick is anyway sort of a retcon, they flirted a little bit during their original run as Batgirl and Robin (Earth one) but they weren't together , she was an adult (around seven years older than him) and he was still a teenager.

Even in her revised pre crisis origin story (secret origins #20) she says "I flirted with the first Robin for a while, but he was so young. Batman was always the one on my mind."

But I prefer Barbara/Dick, because in my opinion the Batman franchise is better without superpowert heros.

#120 Posted by Vitalius (1964 posts) - - Show Bio

His ass and then in second place is Barbara. While Starfire still love him, Nightwing show many times to her that he move on from her. While with Babs, Nightwing continue to date even as Oracle.

#121 Posted by Outside_85 (9162 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say I prefer him with Starfire and part of that is that I kinda think it's wrong for core members of the bat-family to date each other. Even if they aren't related... Dick/Babs just feels like it's brother and sister.

That said, I see some pointing to the failed marriage to Starfire as proof that it wouldn't work between them, and I'd like to make a few pointers:

  • Dick was at an all-time low when he proposed to Starfire, it was a quick decision meant to give him something positive to look forwards to.
  • Raven did indeed crash the wedding, but her reasons had nothing to do with Dick. She was there for Starfire.
  • Afterwards it was Raven's good spirit that made Starfire more erratic, eventually having her leave the planet in order to escape evil Raven, leaving Richard behind with no clues to the hows and why's.
  • But perhaps most importantly, this was the time when the Batman editors regained control of Nightwing from Wolfman and slowly dragged him free of the NTT corner, hence why he was left with nothing but a cameo appearance in the final issue.
#122 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

lol Kori and Dick have had a longer history than Barbara and Dick, at least Pre-Flashpoint anyways.

Barbara/Dick is anyway sort of a retcon, they flirted a little bit during their original run as Batgirl and Robin (Earth one) but they weren't together , she was an adult (around seven years older than him) and he was still a teenager.

Even in her revised pre crisis origin story (secret origins #20) she says "I flirted with the first Robin for a while, but he was so young. Batman was always the one on my mind."

But I prefer Barbara/Dick, because in my opinion the Batman franchise is better without superpowert heros.

Yep. They don't have anywhere near the history that some people think they do, and I actually think Batman The Animated Series is part of why people imagine their romance as something being so epic.

I understand though why people can prefer Dick/Barbara, and its the same reason that Bruce/Talia or Bruce/Selina is preferred over Bruce/Diana. It's hard for writers to have a street level crimefighter be paired with someone superhumanly powerful in various aspects, and not make one or the other look useless. I know a lot of people had that problem when Ollie and Dinah finally got together shortly before Flashpoint.

@jayaaerow Bruce/Barbara is pretty much the one problem I have with the Animated Batman Universe, that started with BTAS. It's just so, so terrible.

#123 Posted by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hard for writers to have a street level crimefighter be paired with someone superhumanly powerful in various aspects, and not make one or the other look useless.

Dick and Bruce can hold their own in Teams with superhumanly powerful heros thats is not the problem. The problem is that charters like Diana or Starfire don't fit in the typical Nightwing or Batman comics.

#124 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:

It's hard for writers to have a street level crimefighter be paired with someone superhumanly powerful in various aspects, and not make one or the other look useless.

Dick and Bruce can hold their own in Teams with superhumanly powerful heros thats is not the problem. The problem is that charters like Diana or Starfire don't fit in the typical Nightwing or Batman comics.

Both are the problem. Again, I point to Green Arrow/Black Canary marriage, where a constant complaint was that Dinah, acknowledged as one of the best hand to hand fighters in the DCU and chairwoman of the JLA, wasn't written that way when paired with Oliver in Star City. And a constantly complaint of Batman is that when written with the League, other characters are written in a similar way to Dinah, where some aspects of the character is taken away to make Bruce fighting alongside them seem more credible/useful; this is where the BatGod archetype sprung from.

Neither Diana or Kori fit into the grim, gritty feel of Gotham, but they're also powerful enough that many would struggle to equally write them alongside their male counterparts in such a setting, in terms of ability. I'm not saying it can't be done, or that neither Dick or Bruce are good enough to stand alongside such people. I'm saying that few writers can actually do it, and that's why we never actually see the relationships explored that much.

#125 Posted by youknowwhattodo (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that both are good pairings, I like Dick/Kori a little bit more because when I read about them together, there is this feeling of escapism from both of them, Dick Grayson feels miles away from Gotham and Batman when he is with Kori and Kori feels miles away from the abuse that she suffered as a child when she is with Dick. With regards to Dick/Babs sometimes it feels as though they drag themselves BACK to Batman just by being together. Now this isn't an indictment on Bruce Wayne as much as it is that I prefer Dick Grayson to be as much of his own man as possible. Also, one could easily write Dick/Babs as best friends, while it's very difficult to write Dick/Kori any other way, if you don't believe me read a comic/fanfic where they are interacting with each other but not a couple and it feels awkward.

@nathaniel_christopher: I agree that pairing street-level characters with cosmic-level ones are rarely a good idea, it's one of the main reasons why Peter Parker and Carol Danvers never became a serious thing (much to the chagrin to a certain vine user Darthfury), because Dan Slott knew that you would be taking away a lot of drama from Peter Parker's life, drama that is the main selling point of the character if you pair him up with Carol. But I will say (and I think we talked about this before), Dick/Kori is one of the best examples of a street/cosmic pairing, mostly because the bulk of the best parts of the relationship happened when he was on the Teen Titans not when he was in Gotham City Jr. I mean Bludhaven. If a writer is going to pair street/cosmic characters up, those particular characters need to exist only in the team book that they are on.

#126 Posted by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

But I will say (and I think we talked about this before), Dick/Kori is one of the best examples of a street/cosmic pairing, mostly because the bulk of the best parts of the relationship happened when he was on the Teen Titans not when he was in Gotham City Jr. I mean Bludhaven. If a writer is going to pair street/cosmic characters up, those particular characters need to exist only in the team book that they are on.

And since you can't restrict Dick to the Titans (he is to popular and part of the Batfamily) Dick/Kori will not work permanently in the comics.

#127 Posted by Denam_Pavel (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers, I truly don't think it would be some very impossible to write if Jason were the one shtupping her instead of Roy. And I imagine the same would go for Dick. If they are in title together, make it part space. Dick as Robin used to go on crazy adventures with Batman and Superman all the time and the Teen Titans are part of who he is. There's no reason Nightwing needs to be a strict streetlevel title. Batwoman sure isn't.

#128 Edited by richardjohngrayson (435 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers, I truly don't think it would be some very impossible to write if Jason were the one shtupping her instead of Roy. And I imagine the same would go for Dick. If they are in title together, make it part space. Dick as Robin used to go on crazy adventures with Batman and Superman all the time and the Teen Titans are part of who he is. There's no reason Nightwing needs to be a strict streetlevel title. Batwoman sure isn't.

I see your point that Dick Grayson can exist in a superpowerd book. He was in the Titans(as Robin and Nightwing) and The Justice League as Batman. I just want to point out that Red Hood and The Outlaws is a bad example because that book has been nothing but bad to mediocre from it's start and part of it's problem has been taking what works for Jason Todd and going against it. Jason very much needs to be written like he is being used in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin. He really shines in those books.

#129 Posted by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers,

Yeah but afaik Kori is never with him in the Bat-crossovers, this was the same when Dick where together at the Teen Titans. She never appeared in any Batman or Nightwing Comics during that time.

#130 Posted by Denam_Pavel (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@denam_pavel said:

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers,

Yeah but afaik Kori is never with him in the Bat-crossovers, this was the same when Dick where together at the Teen Titans. She never appeared in any Batman or Nightwing Comics during that time.

So? Aquaman is basically married to Mera and has adventures with her all the time. She doesn't need to appear in Justice League because of that.

#131 Edited by Cloakx14 (3206 posts) - - Show Bio

i like Nightwing with Starfire. they seem like they fit. i like their relationship in the Teen Titans show.

#133 Posted by waezi2 (7697 posts) - - Show Bio

And the night before Dick and Kory's wedding, he was hooking up with Barbara Gordon. Not exactly the foundation of a healthy, loving relationship.

... WHAT?!

#134 Posted by comicace3 (5538 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara, Starfire is mine. Move along to the next comment now.

#135 Posted by Denam_Pavel (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2 said:

@nightwing91 said:

And the night before Dick and Kory's wedding, he was hooking up with Barbara Gordon. Not exactly the foundation of a healthy, loving relationship.

... WHAT?!

It was retconned in years later in the second Nightwing annual. The writer in questioned apologised soon after.

#136 Posted by waezi2 (7697 posts) - - Show Bio

@denam_pavel: Well, good. Seriously, WTF was that writer thinking?

Who wrote that?

#137 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, that retcon with Dick sleeping with Barbara right before his wedding was terrible, just plain terrible and disrespected everyone involved.

@youknowwhattodo said:

@nathaniel_christopher: I agree that pairing street-level characters with cosmic-level ones are rarely a good idea, it's one of the main reasons why Peter Parker and Carol Danvers never became a serious thing (much to the chagrin to a certain vine user Darthfury), because Dan Slott knew that you would be taking away a lot of drama from Peter Parker's life, drama that is the main selling point of the character if you pair him up with Carol. But I will say (and I think we talked about this before), Dick/Kori is one of the best examples of a street/cosmic pairing, mostly because the bulk of the best parts of the relationship happened when he was on the Teen Titans not when he was in Gotham City Jr. I mean Bludhaven. If a writer is going to pair street/cosmic characters up, those particular characters need to exist only in the team book that they are on.

I'll agree with you there, and I think that goes back to what I say saying about the grim and gritty vibe that any Gotham based novel is going to give off, because that's just the status quo for things in that city. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin, are always going to be darker characters than others, no matter who they're paired with, because of where they hail from. That's the status quo for them. Therefore, characters like Wonder Woman, Starfire, and Wonder Girl, just don't fit in. However, look at the characters when they're with a team, like the Justice League, or the Teen Titans, and it's a different case, because while the characters may remain dark, it's balanced out (If not outright overweighed) by the light the other characters bring to the comic. And of course the villains being fought consistently of a higher level than just the streets, so it becomes an issue of writing the Bat Family members creatively enough to aptly stay alive in such situations. I think that the less powers a character has, the easier this is to do for most writers.

A team environment is really the best place for these characters to be paired. It's sad, because I again think of Kori as the love of Dick's life, but that's how it is.

@denam_pavel said:

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers, I truly don't think it would be some very impossible to write if Jason were the one shtupping her instead of Roy. And I imagine the same would go for Dick. If they are in title together, make it part space. Dick as Robin used to go on crazy adventures with Batman and Superman all the time and the Teen Titans are part of who he is. There's no reason Nightwing needs to be a strict streetlevel title. Batwoman sure isn't.

That's not really solely Jason's book though, as it features Roy and Kori, and consistently has them go up against threats that aren't street level, like those that typically take place in Gotham. The atmosphere of the novel is more like the Teen Titans (though of course a darker version) than it is a solo Batman book in Gotham. Also, many people specifically criticize Red Hood and the Outlaws for taking away the best parts of Jason, that were associated with his time in Gotham going up against the Bat Family, so that weakens the comparison even further. Jason doesn't have a solo series, but if he did, we wouldn't see Kori turning up in Gotham, Bludhaven, or wherever to constantly fight alongside him.

#138 Posted by Denam_Pavel (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, that retcon with Dick sleeping with Barbara right before his wedding was terrible, just plain terrible and disrespected everyone involved.

@youknowwhattodo said:

@nathaniel_christopher: I agree that pairing street-level characters with cosmic-level ones are rarely a good idea, it's one of the main reasons why Peter Parker and Carol Danvers never became a serious thing (much to the chagrin to a certain vine user Darthfury), because Dan Slott knew that you would be taking away a lot of drama from Peter Parker's life, drama that is the main selling point of the character if you pair him up with Carol. But I will say (and I think we talked about this before), Dick/Kori is one of the best examples of a street/cosmic pairing, mostly because the bulk of the best parts of the relationship happened when he was on the Teen Titans not when he was in Gotham City Jr. I mean Bludhaven. If a writer is going to pair street/cosmic characters up, those particular characters need to exist only in the team book that they are on.

I'll agree with you there, and I think that goes back to what I say saying about the grim and gritty vibe that any Gotham based novel is going to give off, because that's just the status quo for things in that city. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin, are always going to be darker characters than others, no matter who they're paired with, because of where they hail from. That's the status quo for them. Therefore, characters like Wonder Woman, Starfire, and Wonder Girl, just don't fit in. However, look at the characters when they're with a team, like the Justice League, or the Teen Titans, and it's a different case, because while the characters may remain dark, it's balanced out (If not outright overweighed) by the light the other characters bring to the comic. And of course the villains being fought consistently of a higher level than just the streets, so it becomes an issue of writing the Bat Family members creatively enough to aptly stay alive in such situations. I think that the less powers a character has, the easier this is to do for most writers.

A team environment is really the best place for these characters to be paired. It's sad, because I again think of Kori as the love of Dick's life, but that's how it is.

@denam_pavel said:

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers, I truly don't think it would be some very impossible to write if Jason were the one shtupping her instead of Roy. And I imagine the same would go for Dick. If they are in title together, make it part space. Dick as Robin used to go on crazy adventures with Batman and Superman all the time and the Teen Titans are part of who he is. There's no reason Nightwing needs to be a strict streetlevel title. Batwoman sure isn't.

That's not really solely Jason's book though, as it features Roy and Kori, and consistently has them go up against threats that aren't street level, like those that typically take place in Gotham. The atmosphere of the novel is more like the Teen Titans (though of course a darker version) than it is a solo Batman book in Gotham. Also, many people specifically criticize Red Hood and the Outlaws for taking away the best parts of Jason, that were associated with his time in Gotham going up against the Bat Family, so that weakens the comparison even further. Jason doesn't have a solo series, but if he did, we wouldn't see Kori turning up in Gotham, Bludhaven, or wherever to constantly fight alongside him.

It's Red Hood and the Outlaws and Lobdell tried to prime a few characters for being added to the rooster but decided against it. It's character focus is too narrow too call it a teambook. And yeah it gets critisms for taking Jason away from his thing. That's Jason. You don't hear that complaint anywhere near as much about Roy. Or Huntress in World's Finest. That's the kind of book Dick should be on. Nightwing has only been solely streetlevel for a year or three in the 90s and in New 52. Not his usual status quo at all.

#139 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Yeah, that retcon with Dick sleeping with Barbara right before his wedding was terrible, just plain terrible and disrespected everyone involved.

@youknowwhattodo said:

@nathaniel_christopher: I agree that pairing street-level characters with cosmic-level ones are rarely a good idea, it's one of the main reasons why Peter Parker and Carol Danvers never became a serious thing (much to the chagrin to a certain vine user Darthfury), because Dan Slott knew that you would be taking away a lot of drama from Peter Parker's life, drama that is the main selling point of the character if you pair him up with Carol. But I will say (and I think we talked about this before), Dick/Kori is one of the best examples of a street/cosmic pairing, mostly because the bulk of the best parts of the relationship happened when he was on the Teen Titans not when he was in Gotham City Jr. I mean Bludhaven. If a writer is going to pair street/cosmic characters up, those particular characters need to exist only in the team book that they are on.

I'll agree with you there, and I think that goes back to what I say saying about the grim and gritty vibe that any Gotham based novel is going to give off, because that's just the status quo for things in that city. Batman, Nightwing, and Robin, are always going to be darker characters than others, no matter who they're paired with, because of where they hail from. That's the status quo for them. Therefore, characters like Wonder Woman, Starfire, and Wonder Girl, just don't fit in. However, look at the characters when they're with a team, like the Justice League, or the Teen Titans, and it's a different case, because while the characters may remain dark, it's balanced out (If not outright overweighed) by the light the other characters bring to the comic. And of course the villains being fought consistently of a higher level than just the streets, so it becomes an issue of writing the Bat Family members creatively enough to aptly stay alive in such situations. I think that the less powers a character has, the easier this is to do for most writers.

A team environment is really the best place for these characters to be paired. It's sad, because I again think of Kori as the love of Dick's life, but that's how it is.

@denam_pavel said:

Jason manages to fight alongside Kory in his own book for years now while participating in Bat-crossovers, I truly don't think it would be some very impossible to write if Jason were the one shtupping her instead of Roy. And I imagine the same would go for Dick. If they are in title together, make it part space. Dick as Robin used to go on crazy adventures with Batman and Superman all the time and the Teen Titans are part of who he is. There's no reason Nightwing needs to be a strict streetlevel title. Batwoman sure isn't.

That's not really solely Jason's book though, as it features Roy and Kori, and consistently has them go up against threats that aren't street level, like those that typically take place in Gotham. The atmosphere of the novel is more like the Teen Titans (though of course a darker version) than it is a solo Batman book in Gotham. Also, many people specifically criticize Red Hood and the Outlaws for taking away the best parts of Jason, that were associated with his time in Gotham going up against the Bat Family, so that weakens the comparison even further. Jason doesn't have a solo series, but if he did, we wouldn't see Kori turning up in Gotham, Bludhaven, or wherever to constantly fight alongside him.

It's Red Hood and the Outlaws and Lobdell tried to prime a few characters for being added to the rooster but decided against it. It's character focus is too narrow too call it a teambook. And yeah it gets critisms for taking Jason away from his thing. That's Jason. You don't hear that complaint anywhere near as much about Roy. Or Huntress in World's Finest. That's the kind of book Dick should be on. Nightwing has only been solely streetlevel for a year or three in the 90s and in New 52. Not his usual status quo at all.

So as I said, it's not solely Jacen's book, no more than Teen Titans is solely Tim's book. And both books again operate in a format that's different from say Nightwing's solo series, or Tim's former series Pre-Flashpoint, where they operate on the streets, and fantastical elements tend to stay out of things. The Outlaws and the Titans fight villains from every background and level, which is why they're team books, where the groups within consist of characters with various abilities, ones who are therefore able to take on bigger threats than Bruce, Dick, or Jason would be able to on their own. Even someone like Bane is a strictly street level type of villain, in that going up against the Bat Family he's a major threat, who they can take on when being careful and with the proper planning and tech, but throw him in a Justice League book on his own and Bane would be stomped in seconds. The entire world of the Outlaws comic series is more similar to the Teen Titans than a solo Batman series, which is why Jason and Kori, or Roy and Kori, could work within that setting, because they're not operating at strictly a street level, as they would be if they were on their own, which is why it's again a bad comparison to make.

The point i'm then making about the criticism thrown Jason's way is that the things that make it possible for him and Kori to work as a couple in the Outlaw book are the same things some people don't like at all, as they feel the setting doesn't work for someone like Jason. (I'd say you don't hear the same criticism's for Roy as often because people don't like or care about Roy as much, and he himself was being featured in the Justice League Pre-Flashpoint, and has in fact spent a good portion of his characters being featured in team books, such as the Teen Titans, where he's not fighting as a street level)

True it's rare for Dick to not be operating as part of a team, similar to Bruce in that way, but the writers don't seem to have any plans to place him on one soon, even though fans have been asking for it since the reboot.

#140 Edited by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

@denam_pavel said:

And yeah it gets critisms for taking Jason away from his thing. That's Jason. You don't hear that complaint anywhere near as much about Roy. Or Huntress in World's Finest. That's the kind of book Dick should be on. Nightwing has only been solely streetlevel for a year or three in the 90s and in New 52. Not his usual status quo at all.

Roy is probably just not that popular, and the Helena Wayne Huntress wasn't in any comics since the mid 80s.

Am I the only one who thinks it would make more sense when Dick would be in a team with Roy and Kory and Jason would be the super spy?

#141 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@denam_pavel said:

And yeah it gets critisms for taking Jason away from his thing. That's Jason. You don't hear that complaint anywhere near as much about Roy. Or Huntress in World's Finest. That's the kind of book Dick should be on. Nightwing has only been solely streetlevel for a year or three in the 90s and in New 52. Not his usual status quo at all.

Roy is probably just not that popular, and the Helena Wayne Huntress wasn't in any comics since the mid 80s.

Am I the only one who thinks it would make more sense when Dick would be in a team with Roy and Kory and Jason would be the super spy?

No. In general, the idea of one of the Robin's operating strictly on his own from the shadows fits Jason more than it does Dick. Dick and Tim have always been fairly social characters, interacting with numerous other heroes across the DCU. Jason, due to the short amount of time he was Robin, along with his time as a villain/anti-villain after his revival (And of course the jail time as well) has never been the same, with his main connection being with Bruce. Given that they've even made it clear that Dick worked alongside both Roy and Kori at some point, it definitely strikes me as odd that they chose these specific characters to work with Jason instead. Then again it's also odd that Dick's the one who's not on anything resembling a team so you know...

#142 Posted by Jayc1324 (12323 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

#144 Posted by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason, due to the short amount of time he was Robin, along with his time as a villain/anti-villain after his revival (And of course the jail time as well) has never been the same, with his main connection being with Bruce.

It is not only due to his short time, he simply was created to be in the Batman comic so Dick could be fulltime with the Titans. And there weren't any other teenaged characters to join a team with him at this time (the Titans were 18-20 when he became robin at an age of 11 or 12).

#145 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Jason, due to the short amount of time he was Robin, along with his time as a villain/anti-villain after his revival (And of course the jail time as well) has never been the same, with his main connection being with Bruce.

It is not only due to his short time, he simply was created to be in the Batman comic so Dick could be fulltime with the Titans. And there weren't any other teenaged characters to join a team with him at this time (the Titans were 18-20 when he became robin at an age of 11 or 12).

That to.

@nathaniel_christopher said:

No. In general, the idea of one of the Robin's operating strictly on his own from the shadows fits Jason more than it does Dick. Dick and Tim have always been fairly social characters, interacting with numerous other heroes across the DCU. Jason, due to the short amount of time he was Robin, along with his time as a villain/anti-villain after his revival (And of course the jail time as well) has never been the same, with his main connection being with Bruce. Given that they've even made it clear that Dick worked alongside both Roy and Kori at some point, it definitely strikes me as odd that they chose these specific characters to work with Jason instead. Then again it's also odd that Dick's the one who's not on anything resembling a team so you know...

I think the reason why Dick hasn't been on a team for like 99% of the new 52 is because they want to make him an A-List character in the DCNU and it's almost impossible to do that in a team book. The only exception would be if he had a solo and was in biggest team in DC ala the Justice League at the same time (but he can't be there because of Bruce). It's clear that they want to push him to the casual audience because with the exception of Batman, he's been the most exposed DC character in animation. So while it is sad that he doesn't have a team, I think DC are thinking long-term regarding the growth of Dick Grayson or at least I hope they are.

It's important to note that his Nightwing solo consistently sold more than Flash, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and pretty much every other solo title in the DCNU with the exception of Batman, Harley Quinn and Green Lantern.

I can understand that, but keep in mind that Superman and Batman are both A-List characters, yet are still consistently on teams. Heck, Dick was the same for a long time, having his own series, yet still being involved with some iteration of the Titans, and even Tim Drake became that way too for a while. So I don't think that focusing on him or showing him off to the fans necessarily excludes him from being on a team at all. Hell, i'd say both Batman and Wolverine for Marvel prove that a character can have multiple series, be on a team, and still do just fine. In fact, i'd say being on a team benefits the character even more in the long run.

#146 Posted by youknowwhattodo (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher: Just ignore my comment lol, for whatever reason I interpreted your original comment as an either/or situation.

#147 Posted by Denam_Pavel (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason really wasn't big enough to hold a solo title yet at the start of Nu52. And Kory place in DC was always kind of a problem. On the whole Red Hood and the Outlaws helped them. Dick is big enough to hold a title with his civilian name and has the personality to make it fun.

#148 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason really wasn't big enough to hold a solo title yet at the start of Nu52. And Kory place in DC was always kind of a problem. On the whole Red Hood and the Outlaws helped them. Dick is big enough to hold a title with his civilian name and has the personality to make it fun.

Red Hood and the Outlaws did the same thing the Teen Titans/Titans/Outsiders did, nothing more. The problem many have is that they were specifically Dick's friends Pre-Flashpoint (Though even Post, they were still friends with Dick in the past), just like how founding the Teen Titans was something specifically unique to Dick among his "brothers", and in general it was part of a legacy he established. The writers choosing to specifically pair Kori and Roy with Jason, and make Tim the founder of the Teen Titans really just struck a lot of people as mining elements from Dick's history and giving them away to the other two, because they couldn't be bothered to be more original. What's more, this weakened later storyline's for Dick, even though his comic itself still sold extremely well (Which I think speaks to the appeal of the character, the fanbase, and the writers for his series) Just one major issue came up during his death and later funeral, where many wondered how many heroes in the DCU were even close with Dick, since his relationships with them were never focused on. This made the impact of his death less than it would have been during the previous continuity.

I do agree that giving Jason a solo title would have been a risk though, and even now i'm not sure how well it would do, especially seeing as many don't seem to like the current direction he's been going down.

#149 Posted by Aahz (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood and the Outlaws did the same thing the Teen Titans/Titans/Outsiders did, nothing more. The problem many have is that they were specifically Dick's friends Pre-Flashpoint (Though even Post, they were still friends with Dick in the past).

But most other not totally obscure heroes they could have put in a team with Jason are also friends of Dick or Tim. I doubt that there are much (semi)popular young heroes, that never have been in the Teen Titans or Young Justice.

#150 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1666 posts) - - Show Bio

@aahz said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Red Hood and the Outlaws did the same thing the Teen Titans/Titans/Outsiders did, nothing more. The problem many have is that they were specifically Dick's friends Pre-Flashpoint (Though even Post, they were still friends with Dick in the past).

But most other not totally obscure heroes they could have put in a team with Jason are also friends of Dick or Tim. I doubt that there are much (semi)popular young heroes, that never have been in the Teen Titans or Young Justice.

Friends, but not best friends like Roy and Kori were for Dick. Heck, i'm surprised they didn't use Mia Deardan instead of Roy honestly. She was a few years younger than Jason sure, but then Jason's younger than Roy, and who knows how old Kori is. She had a similar past to Jason, coming off the streets, had dealt with drug addiction and abuse, they would have complimented each other perfectly, and this was even pointed out in a meeting the two had shortly after One Year Later. The real problem is that it's not even necessarily bad that they used Kori and Roy, or even that they made Tim founder of the Titans, its that all of that happened, and Dick wasn't really left with anything. Of the numerous friends he had outside of the Bat Family Pre-Flashpoint, he doesn't really have any now. Roy and Kori are with Jason, Victor's with the Justice League, last I checked Beast Boy and Raven were with the Teen Titans, Donna Troy's been erased from existence, and Wally has just recently been revived as an African American teen with issues, etc.

These are/were Dick's Best Friends, and therefore were fairly important to his history, and allowed for interesting stories outside of Gotham. It'd be akin to not having Batman ever interact with Superman, when their relationship, even at it's worst, is still a solid storytelling point for both characters, and is honestly one of the things many fans like to see. With Tim, you've still got him interacting with Superboy and Wonder Girl, even though all of them have had their origins changed. I'd say that a character's friends are just as, if not only slightly less, important as that characters villains (And in terms of personal villains, Dick's also lacking in that area as well)

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