Dick Grayson, Was he ever a brother to Jason Todd?

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#1 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

I read a lot of fanfiction of Dick and Jason being like brothers, but I have not seen any evidence in the DCU both Pre 52 and New 52 that Jason was as close to Dick as Tim Drake. What do you think? Does anyone really think they wer close or not? All I seen is this, both of them constantly fighting each other:

#2 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

Na i dont think they were close, but i think Dick regrets not being closer to Jason after his death. When Jason started being Red Hood, and even Nightwing, Dick stuck to his guns and tried to bring him down. I remember him offering to try and help Jason, and i know that Dick desperately wants Jason to come back to the right side of things, but Jason refused. They are brothers, but more like estranged brothers.

#3 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

They got pretty close on Nightwing Year One and had really great scenes together

#4 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

When Jason was coming up as Robin, Dick had mostly moved on and was having limited interaction with the Bat family. Like many teenagers (ok, most) there were some hurt feelings between father(figure) and son, so Dick had to go off with the Titans for a while and figure out who exactly he was independent of Bruce.

#5 Edited by Vitacura (77 posts) - - Show Bio

They were never like brothers nor friends. The closer they ever got to be friendly was in Nightwing year I, when they were just meeting and by the end they were OK with each other. They didn't interact much outside that.

#6 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah, they didnt interact much other than in nightwing year 1, maybe dick feels guilty he wasnt closer to jason before jaasons death, if he was, maybe jason wouldnt have become the red hood.

#7 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

It's for the best. They live in different worlds o.O

#8 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

He did his best.

Their Post-Flashpoint relationship

Dick's always regretted not taking a more active role in Jason's life, which directly led to him always trying to be there for Tim. I'd say that Dick tried to be there for Jason, he just had his own life going on and didn't make it a number one priority.

#9 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I say its too late for Dick to even have any sort of friendly relationship with Jason, because Jason hates him especially as Jason couldnt live up to Dicks reputation as Robin. He didnt even attended Jason's funeral, only four people was there and that seriously pissed me off, and is another reason Jason hates Dick and the Bat Family.

#10 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really. They didn't exactly get any opportunities to get close. Even now it seems like Dick doesn't understand him much.

#11 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackReaper: Jason hates the entire bat family including Dick, so yeah I say its pretty much too late.

#12 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: He doesn't hate them.

#13 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackReaper: I think he does, he repeatedly tried to kill members of the Bat family, mainly Tim, Dick and Damian. Plus he didnt like being replaced by Tim as robin, beating up in the Teen Titan Tower, so that qualifies as hating them.

#14 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: No, he was just confused.

#15 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackReaper: LOL, I see you are joking! Good one! LOL!

#16 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: In all seriousness, I'm pretty sure he's over the whole Joker/Batman ordeal.

#17 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: nowadays, I think the only person Jason can get along with is Tim. I dont know if he hates everyone else, im pretty sure he still hates Dick, and he cant stand Damian, and well Bruce is just complicated. So does he like the Bat-family, no. Does he hate members of the bat family, yes. But he doesnt hate all of them

#18 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: He and Tim only had one friendly conversation, it doesnt mean he likes Tim, he still hates Tim for replacing him as Robin. he wants nothing to do with the Batfamily, sure he teams up with them now and again, but i dont see him going to have christmas with them or something, he basically mainly stays away from them, I qualify it as hatred for the whole lot of them.

#19 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

where are these issues of jason and tim bonding? ppl keep bringing it up and i dont remember them bein cool, especially after bftc

#20 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: I think its in the Outlaw comics, but I am not sure of the issue as my country doesnt have RHATO yet.

#21 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: issue 8 of RHTO

#22 Posted by KingAres109 (1245 posts) - - Show Bio

Well,in my mind their all brothers.Dick,Jason,Tim and Damian.Dick is the older brother who will take care of everything if something happens to the Dark Knight.Tim is the smart one,(not saying the others are dumb just that Tim is the smartest)Jason is the best fighter out of all of them and Damian has the tools to be the nest Dark Knight.But Jason is in his own world and seems hell on bbent doing things his way.He wishes to follows Bats to a degree,just his own justice.It would be kick a** if they all got along like brothers are supposed to but Jason is the middle child.So,you know how that goes.Lol

#23 Posted by lilcraig92 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Well when they were all together in Batman and robin, they really didnt seem like any of the robins had hard feelin towards each other, Tim and Jason shared infro to each other for a mission and had breakfast together

#24 Posted by SmoothJammin (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@SmoothJammin: issue 8 of RHTO

How unjason of jason.. lol it's obviously 2012 when you get these two at the breakfast table discussing Alfred's bad cooking. So much wrong with that picture. >.>

#25 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldnt really call them all brothers especially Jason, he barely spent any time with Dick, and he barely knows Tim and Damian personally.

#26 Posted by dicksihavestudied (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick was quite close to Jason Pre-Crisis. In fact, Dick was friends with Jason's family and introduced the Todds to Bruce. This, of course, was when Jason was also a trapeze artist and was basically a blond Dick Grayson. The two weren't quite as close Post-Crisis after Jason was reconceived as a street kid, but Jason helped the New Teen Titans a time or two and Dick was supportive then, offering to stick up for Jason if he got in trouble with Bruce (NTT, Volume 2, # 31).

Dick missed Jason's funeral because he was off-world and Bruce never contacted him. It's hard to attend a funeral when you are on another planet and don't even know its occurring. Dick was very upset about what happened to Jason, feeling guilty for giving Jason his Robin outfit and thinking he got him killed in some way (this is New Titans #55, and it's before the retcon that had Bruce firing Dick). But yes, I think Dick did wish he had been there more for Jason.

And in Batman #416 Dick reaches out to Jason, even though Dick has words with Bruce earlier in the issue. In the 1980s, Dick did try... but maybe he should have tried harder? He certainly tried harder when Tim showed up, although that was also DC trying to give Tim the "Dick Seal of Approval" and hopefully have readers accept him more easily than they had Jason Todd.

It seems to me that DC created more distance between the two in the 90s and 00s. In Nightwing: Year One, Dick meets Jason for the first time when Jason is out doing his gauntlet, but Dick approves of the kid by the end. Still, Dick was off Titaning, so he didn't have much time to "brother" Jason. And things were fairly antagonistic after Jason returned from the dead, although they had some moments in Brothers in Blood.

I have no idea about New 52, though. I find it interesting that DC might be trying to make Jason "okay" with Tim. It seems odd that Jason would like Tim since he was previously (well, old 52) so upset about being replaced. Maybe this is where Tim as "Red Robin" comes in? I mean, if I were Jason, my replacement being called "Red Robin" instead of just "Robin" would not cut it, but I'm not Jason Todd. And perhaps it does make a certain amount of sense for Jason to "hate" his replacement less than the older brother he never felt he could measure up to. In Jason's mind, that might be something he feels he has in common with Tim: they are both in the shadow of the first Robin, so Jason can tolerate the replacement. But that's just a thought.

#27 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything I am writing is bases on the DCnU or DCN52 depending on which abbreviation you prefer.

Jason does not hate all of the bat family. Jason and Tim have devolved a type of friendship or at least mutual respect. He shows up in Batman and Robin to help with Terminus and even goes out of his way not to kill anyone and follow "the code of the bat" when working with them. D, Wayne even makes a comment that his aim must be off. He again answers the call of the Bat when in Night of the Owls he goes to deal with Victor Frieze. When Superman shows up in RHO#14 he says very plainly that Batman has vouched for him. And in Batman INC #4 he clearly works with Batman as Wingman. There is no doubt he is the outsider of the group but that he is part of the group.

#28 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

Well I say its too late for Dick to even have any sort of friendly relationship with Jason, because Jason hates him especially as Jason couldnt live up to Dicks reputation as Robin. He didnt even attended Jason's funeral, only four people was there and that seriously pissed me off, and is another reason Jason hates Dick and the Bat Family.

You say that as if it's honestly a justifiable reason for being angry at Dick (Whether it's you or Jason.) Look at my previous post in here, or better yet let me show you:

Dick was off world at the time of Jason's death, and checked on him as soon as he got back. He was extremely broken up over it, just like Bruce was. Saying he didn't even attend Jason's funeral makes it sound as if he knew about it but chose not to go. It's similar to him now having been there at the hospital for Barbara after she got shot. He had no choice in the matter, but as soon as he got back he rushed to see her. Can't speak for anyone else Jason knew not having been there, but Dick's reason was sound.

I'll say again, we all know how Jason is. It's common knowledge he always resented and even hated Dick (And that's something that's carried over to his past in the New 52). Dick did what he could. Maybe he should've been a little more attentive, but its not to the point where you can say he outright neglected Jason.

#29 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@dicksihavestudied: It makes no sense for Jason to remotely like Tim as Jason wouldnt like getting replaced at all, especially with someone who had a better life than he had. DC is messing up Jason by getting him to make peace with Tim, its completely out of Jason's character. The major difference between Jason and Tim is that Tim lived up to the Dick Grayson reputation as Robin, wheras Jason failed, and thats a good reason why Jason hates Tim.

@redhoodnet: Just because Jason and Tim had one friendly conversation doesnt mean he doesnt hate Tim, he will always hate Tim and nothing will change that, Tim is just a reminder to Jason that Jason was forgotten, and the memory of him was tossed in the garbage giving a perfect reason for his hatred of Tim. Plus his sometimes team up with the bat family, is probably an excuse to antagonise the Bat family.

#30 Edited by richardjohngrayson (414 posts) - - Show Bio
@JasonTodd13 said:

@dicksihavestudied: It makes no sense for Jason to remotely like Tim as Jason wouldnt like getting replaced at all, especially with someone who had a better life than he had. DC is messing up Jason by getting him to make peace with Tim, its completely out of Jason's character. The major difference between Jason and Tim is that Tim lived up to the Dick Grayson reputation as Robin, wheras Jason failed, and thats a good reason why Jason hates Tim.

@redhoodnet: Just because Jason and Tim had one friendly conversation doesnt mean he doesnt hate Tim, he will always hate Tim and nothing will change that, Tim is just a reminder to Jason that Jason was forgotten, and the memory of him was tossed in the garbage giving a perfect reason for his hatred of Tim. Plus his sometimes team up with the bat family, is probably an excuse to antagonise the Bat family.

As you said yourself your country does not get  RHATO yet so until you've read that I feel you are talking out of turn. Plus Jason is very  much working with Bruce now a days. Look no further than Batman Inc. You seem to be  hung up on pre-new 52 Jason Todd and I assure new 52 Jason is way different.
#31 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson: Well they seem to be trying to ruin Jason in the New 52 by making do things his character isnt suppose to do make friendly conversations with the bat family and teaming him up with a couple of nobodies (because to him, Roy and starfire are nobodies, I myself am not calling them nobodies, but thats what they are to Jason).

#32 Posted by LuigiBat (225 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Dick tried to get close to Jason and bond with him back when he was starting out as Robin.

Jason's always been the one to throw it back in everyone else's face, something I think is largely due to his upbringing and Bruce's failure to get him some proper treatment prior to giving him the role of Robin. I'm no expert on Jason but it seems to me that with his harsh upbringing he interprets compassion and friendship as weaknesses, he doesn't have friends only rivals and enemies, as you can clearly see in the scan posted in this thread its not like Dick did anything to really cause Jason to get his back up so to speak. As Jason himself says "Life's a competition", I imagine Bruce didn't see through this attitude when he met Jason as he likely saw it as a sign that Jason was as committed to perfection as himself (something he was no doubt looking for after his fallout with Dick). Bruce trains to be better than everyone else because he needs to be in order to do his job, Jason trains to be better than everyone else so he can beat them all, there's a fine line between each attitude.

#33 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

"They wrent many times that dick tryed to help jason so i hardly count them, as Dick didnt really want to bother trying to help jason, I dont think Dick even liked Jason, which obviously led to Jason's hatred of him. Still, dick not being in vital points of his life like finding out his father was murdered by two face, jason had no one to talk to about it because at that moment he resented Bruce for not telling him. I think Jason did at some point looked up to Dick but Dick never really accepted Jason as Robin, Dick was mostly absent during Jason's Robin days."

There's no logic behind that. Where are you getting that Dick didn't want to bother trying to help Jason? Where are you getting he didn't like Jason? Where are you getting that him not liking Jason led to Jason hating him?

Comparing Dick not being there at any minute to the death of Jason's father is a very, very, very large overexaggeration.

Where are you getting he never accepted Jason as Robin.

To be honest, this all seems like fanboyism for Jason Todd and hatred for Dick Grayson. Find scans of any one of your claims and i'll find you one that shows the exact opposite. Hell, there are scans in this thread already that show the opposite.

"He never said he liked Jason, so it has to be assumed he never liked Jason. Jason I think knew Dick didnt like him, so its obvious that Jason would start to hate him back. Dont get me wrong, but i like Dick Grayson, but I have to admit he did made a huge mistake by not trying hard enough to help Jason. I dont like the term fanboy, its like calling a straight person gay."

That is probably the worst argument i've ever heard and there is a large body of evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any scans of proof.

I wouldn't say its anywhere near the same thing.

#34 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: well none of you have actually showed scans of Dick actually liking Jason (dicks reaction to jason's death doesnt count).

#35 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: well none of you have actually showed scans of Dick actually liking Jason (dicks reaction to jason's death doesnt count).

And there are numerous other pictures of Dick dealing with grief from Jason's death. The idea that he hated Jason Todd is ludicrous and doesn't have a scrap of evidence to back it up. I'd also like to point out that the last picture was among many other old photos Dick has. He was looking at them after having killed the Joker. And in terms of that incident, he was told Tim was dead, which caused him to attack the Joker, but what threw him over the edge was when the Joker mentioned and mocked Jason's death.

#36 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Interesting scans, yes I know Dick grieved after Jason's death, but he never said himself he liked Jason, just because he grieved doesnt mean he liked Jason. I think the idea of a fifteen year old kid getting murdered made him grieve, not Jason Todd himself. As I am constantly told, nobody liked Jason, some people even told me the reason no one was at Jason's funeral was because no one liked him. In all honesty, Dick was never really close to Jason, he was more close to Tim, over time Dick had forgotten Jason until Jason returned. All these scans show that Jason and Dick met and worked together, but they dont state that Dick liked him.

#37 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Interesting scans, yes I know Dick grieved after Jason's death, but he never said himself he liked Jason, just because he grieved doesnt mean he liked Jason. I think the idea of a fifteen year old kid getting murdered made him grieve, not Jason Todd himself. As I am constantly told, nobody liked Jason, some people even told me the reason no one was at Jason's funeral was because no one liked him. In all honesty, Dick was never really close to Jason, he was more close to Tim, over time Dick had forgotten Jason until Jason returned. All these scans show that Jason and Dick met and worked together, but they dont state that Dick liked him.

Dick's also never outright said he likes other people he's friends with and has known for years. I don't think it needs to be outright stated someone like's someone else. That's the entire points of seeing internal thoughts in a comic where a character compliments another character, and those scans at the least proves he certainly didn't hate Jason as you claim. Unless you happen to have scans to prove he did?

Except the opposite is shown numerous times where Dick thinks about Jason's death. It's never once implied that he's simply angry at a young person dying. I find that to be insulting to both characters.

Don't see how what you're told by anyone else has to do with what actually happened in the comics. In fact, you seem to be saying that Dick didn't like Jason because others have told you no one liked him, and i've already shown you scans as to why Dick wasn't at Jason's funeral.

Yet you've still provided no scans to back up any of your claims. Wonderful argument.

He was never close to Jason, but he has pictures of them hanging out? He'd forgotten about him, but he grieved for him constantly and argued with Bruce over his death? Ok bro.

You ask for proof of things, but then never provide any of your own. That's insulting.

"It has to be assumed that he didnt like Jason, there is no definite proof that says he likes Jason. Its insulting that Dick never liked Jason, come on it never stated that Dick grieved for Jason or the fact a kid was murdered, he didnt really know Jason that well so its the latter. I already know Dick was in space at the time of the funeral, but he never paid his respects to Jasons grave (as far as I know) It was only one picture, that cant be considered a closer relationship. I would provide proof, if i was able to upload comic scans, which I dont really know how to, I am not good at uploading pictures and stuff like that, thats why, i havent uploaded anything.

It does? Really? Do tell!

It's never been said Dick grieved for Jason and it was just him grieving for a kid being murdered, because he didn't really know Jason....He never paid his respects to Jason's grave...

You have a very, very interesting head canon.

http://fuckyeahdickgraysonandjasontodd.tumblr.com/post/16863679562/sansets-fyeahdickgrayson-so-dicks-reaction

The idea that Dick Grayson hates Jason Todd is again ludicrous.

#38 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: From what I have seen, Dick has never bothered to go to Jason when he found out Jason was alive agian, tell me how was that caring for Jason?

#39 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: From what I have seen, Dick has never bothered to go to Jason when he found out Jason was alive agian, tell me how was that caring for Jason?

Uh, maybe because by the time it was discovered Jason was alive, everyone knew he was Red Hood and that he'd been killing people indiscriminately, as well as attacking Bruce, and the next time Jason and Dick met Jason tried to kill him, and he'd broken into Titan's Tower and beaten Tim nearly to death when Tim had never done anything wrong to him, etc.

You truly want to believe Dick Grayson hates Jason Todd despite the massive amount of evidence to the contrary, and the fact you can't find any evidence to actually support your point.

"Well you havent shown any evidence that dick cared about Jason after his return, dick offered to help jason twice but all it did was provoke jason. if dick did care, he would have tried to go jason and try and talk to him, convince him stop what he is doing and come home to bruce but no he didnt, he basically waited until jason came to when jason was trying to put blood on the nightwing mantle."

You didn't read Under the Red Hood did you? You know, the story where it's revealed Red Hood is Jason Todd? Because at the end of it, Bludhaven has Chemo dropped on it, therefore Dick Grayson was busy trying to save lives in a doomed city while Jason was busy killing people, fighting Bruce, and making sure Bruce couldn't get to Dick to help. But no, no you're right. What the hell was Dick thinking when he chose to do his job and try to save lives in the city he'd sworn to protect? The hell is wrong with the guy for then rushing into Infinite Crisis to organize and lead the others heroes while the world was going to hell? What business did he have almost getting killed at the end, and then spending weeks recuperating with his fiance? Why oh why did he bother to do any of these non-important tasks and not go find Jason Todd, a man who'd just tried to murder Bruce Wayne and Tim Drake?

Again, you make the most baseless arguments and truly want to believe that Dick Grayson hates Jason Todd. I've already proven time and again that he doesn't. And every time they've met, where Jason attacked Dick by the way, Dick's offered to get him some help and has talked to him. But no, no. Dick must hate Jason because he doesn't put all his responsibilities aside and put all his resources towards going to find him and talk to him again, even though they've talked before.

#40 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: He could of went to Jason after the Infinite crisis was over, but no he went around the world with Bruce. Everytime I have seen Jason and Dick in the same story together, they are always fighting each other, Dick may have cared for Jason before his death, but he no longer cared for Jason when he returned to life. I have actually read under the red hood actually and Infinite crisis, Dick was coming to bludhaven and went through Gotham to get to Bludhaven when he met with Bruce, who talked with him about the survivors of crisis on infinite earths. And what are you talking about? He has no fiance, unless you are talking about starfire, but that was a long time ago, way before the infinite crisis. There were a lot of times post infinite crisis he could have gone to jason, but he didnt, and you know why? he gave up on jason from the moment he heard jason was back, despite offering to help him twice. giving up on jason is just a sign he doesnt like jason.

#41 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: He could of went to Jason after the Infinite crisis was over, but no he went around the world with Bruce. Everytime I have seen Jason and Dick in the same story together, they are always fighting each other, Dick may have cared for Jason before his death, but he no longer cared for Jason when he returned to life. I have actually read under the red hood actually and Infinite crisis, Dick was coming to bludhaven and went through Gotham to get to Bludhaven when he met with Bruce, who talked with him about the survivors of crisis on infinite earths. And what are you talking about? He has no fiance, unless you are talking about starfire, but that was a long time ago, way before the infinite crisis. There were a lot of times post infinite crisis he could have gone to jason, but he didnt, and you know why? he gave up on jason from the moment he heard jason was back, despite offering to help him twice. giving up on jason is just a sign he doesnt like jason.

Actually, Dick was engaged to Barbara Gordon at the time of his recovery.

#42 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: He could of went to Jason after the Infinite crisis was over, but no he went around the world with Bruce. Everytime I have seen Jason and Dick in the same story together, they are always fighting each other, Dick may have cared for Jason before his death, but he no longer cared for Jason when he returned to life. I have actually read under the red hood actually and Infinite crisis, Dick was coming to bludhaven and went through Gotham to get to Bludhaven when he met with Bruce, who talked with him about the survivors of crisis on infinite earths. And what are you talking about? He has no fiance, unless you are talking about starfire, but that was a long time ago, way before the infinite crisis. There were a lot of times post infinite crisis he could have gone to jason, but he didnt, and you know why? he gave up on jason from the moment he heard jason was back, despite offering to help him twice. giving up on jason is just a sign he doesnt like jason.

No one knew where Jason was, even Bruce couldn't find him at the end of Under the Red Hood, but somehow Dick's supposed to be able to find him? Is Dick better than Bruce now? Are his resources that much greater?

No they aren't, and i've shown you scans proving that. They haven't fought since Dick was Batman. Every time they've seen each other since Flashpoint they've been working together, same with Jason and Tim, and Jason and Bruce for that matter. None of them are fighting anymore.

At the time of Infinite Crisis Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon were engaged.

Same as my first response. You act like Jason had a place where everyone knew he stayed.

The simple facts are that your claim that Dick hates Jason has no proof, and you've failed to show any. Despite your claim of not being able to post scans you haven't even gone to look through story lines to find instances of Dick saying he hates Jason. Also, I never said they were like brothers after Jason's return. The entire time we've been talking about their relationship before Jason's death, and now you're moving to post return where they hardly interacted. Every time they have, Jason's attacked Dick, before Flashpoint, as I pointed out to you. Saying Dick should drop everything and go help someone who doesn't want to be helped makes no sense. Finally, if you give up on someone you don't offer to help them. Those two basic ideas contradict each other. Again, all this seems like fanboyism for Jason Todd and hatred for Dick Grayson to me. I'm done arguing with you about it regardless.

#43 Edited by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: hmmm... I didnt know that, i havent really paid attention to Nightwings life that much, I am mainly focussed on Jason Todd.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I dont think Bruce tryed to find him, if he tried, he would have find him as he is the world's greatest detective. Nightwing is Batmans first sidekick, so he should be near Bruce's detective skills to find Jason. Dick doesnt need to say he hates Jason directly but its pretty obvious, but I am sure he was pretty angry that Jason beat the crap out of Tim in the teen titan tower and in battle for the cowl, and when Jason shot damian in the chest. both Jason and Dick's interactions both Pre and Post Death both reflect what kind of relationship they had before his death. There is no evidence that they were ever close, Yes dick grieved for his death, yes he took a picture with him, yes he had an arguement with Bruce about Jason, and yes they hang out while fighting crime, but there is no definite evidence that says Dick remotely liked Jason, he never said so, nor did he showed signs that he did, all he basically did was grieve for jason's death. Yes, he was in space while jasons funeral took place, but what on earth stopped him from paying respects to Jason's grave? Dick gave up on him, but he wanted to try and help jason even though he pretty much gave up, he stopped offering to help Jason after Batman and Robin because he accepted the fact that what Jason said was true that it was too late for him. No strong effort on Dick's part to help Jason has not been shown, all the times he offered to help Jason was when Jason showed himself, not when he went to find Jason. Oh, dont call me a fan boy because im not gay.

#44 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

Last thing i'm gonna post in here, which is Dick paying respects to Jason's grave.

http://fuckyeahdickgraysonandjasontodd.tumblr.com/post/16863679562/sansets-fyeahdickgrayson-so-dicks-reaction

When you find some scans proving Dick hates Jason let me know.

#45 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Finally something that tells me Dick cared when Jason was Robin. So you were right at that point, but it doesnt mean they were brothers. Still it doesnt change anything after Jason's resurrection, it looks to me that Dick is either trying to preserve his memory of Jason as Robin, or he was just trying to ignore Jason and carry on with his Life.

#46 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Finally something that tells me Dick cared when Jason was Robin. So you were right at that point, but it doesnt mean they were brothers. Still it doesnt change anything after Jason's resurrection, it looks to me that Dick is either trying to preserve his memory of Jason as Robin, or he was just trying to ignore Jason and carry on with his Life.

One could argue Dick and Jason were brothers due to their sibling rivalry. Dick resented Batman for replacing him; Jason resented Dick for his skill and reputation. If relations between Bruce and Dick were better at the time, perhaps Jason would have had that ideal "big brother".

After his resurrection, Jason Todd kept reappearing in Dick's life. First in the Outsiders, then when Jason masqueraded as Nightwing. Battle for the Cowl. Batman and Robin vs. Red Hood and Scarlet. In each of these instances, Jason either played a villain or just antagonized Dick. It's hard to look after someone when an entire city is in disarray, or when you're mentoring a child assassin.

#47 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick Grayson saved Jason Todd when he messed up a drug bust, taught him the ropes, complimented his skills, gave him his number so Jason could contact him at any time, gave him his old costume, spent time with him outside of costume just hanging out, and with Jason's death he was broken to the point of starting an argument with Bruce, threatening a kid who was his teammate, reduced to tears, blamed himself, and years after the fact went so far as to beat the Joker to death with his bare hands after the Joker mocked Jason's death. Sounds like brothers to me, and notably there's nothing in that list he hasn't also done with Tim, save murdering someone and threatening a kid.

don't forget him showing up in New York, posing as Dick and killing people.

#48 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: @Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Dick Grayson saved Jason Todd when he messed up a drug bust, taught him the ropes, complimented his skills, gave him his number so Jason could contact him at any time, gave him his old costume, spent time with him outside of costume just hanging out, and with Jason's death he was broken to the point of starting an argument with Bruce, threatening a kid who was his teammate, reduced to tears, blamed himself, and years after the fact went so far as to beat the Joker to death with his bare hands after the Joker mocked Jason's death. Sounds like brothers to me, and notably there's nothing in that list he hasn't also done with Tim, save murdering someone and threatening a kid.

don't forget him showing up in New York, posing as Dick and killing people.

Yes.

#49 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor: But Dick and Jason werent really close enough to be called brothers, Dick recognised it as his mistake and thats why he decided to be more closer to Tim Drake. Jason by the way never really referred to Dick as his brother nor did the other way round. Being brothers means you have to be really close and Dick and Jason were never that close, and Jason sure as hell is not close to Tim or Damian. If Jason had considered Dick to be a brother, he wouldnt be attacking him constantly after he returned from the dead.

#50 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@VampireSelektor: But Dick and Jason werent really close enough to be called brothers, Dick recognised it as his mistake and thats why he decided to be more closer to Tim Drake. Jason by the way never really referred to Dick as his brother nor did the other way round. Being brothers means you have to be really close and Dick and Jason were never that close, and Jason sure as hell is not close to Tim or Damian. If Jason had considered Dick to be a brother, he wouldnt be attacking him constantly after he returned from the dead.

Actually, Jason wrote a note to Dick calling him "brother" in either Nightwing #123 or #124.

Dick's mistake was not having a more active relationship with Jason, yes. Jason didn't have the conditioning Dick had when he wore the Robin costume. Dick was a world famous child acrobat; Jason was a common street tough. After Jason died, Dick tutored Tim so as to avoid history repeating itself. I'm not sure if brought this up, but pre-Crisis Dick and Jason were close. Post-Crisis, Dick and Bruce had bad blood. This bad blood prevented Dick from embracing Jason the way he did pre-Crisis. The reason Dick and Jason weren't as close as Dick and Tim lies in the hurt feelings between Dick and Bruce (ha!).

Post-Crisis - Dick and Jason did have a warm relationship. Were they quite brothers yet? No. Had Jason not been killed, he and Dick might've had the warm brotherly relationship Tim enjoyed as Robin.

There's also speculation that death and resurrection altered Jason's personality, if not gave him brain damage. Getting bludgeoned in the head and resurrected days later might traumatize a person.

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