Dick Grayson = Joker

#1 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with the notion that Joker and Batman compliment one another as primal opposites. However, during the course of Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin, the idea that the Joker actually serves as a counterpart to Dick Grayson became plausible.         
 
Remember B & R #16? 
 
"The new kid and I are too much alike"         
 
That, and the garish, colorful costumes.   
 
Sorry for the lack of scans, I couldn't find the particular scene.   
 

#2 Posted by daredevil21134 (12669 posts) - - Show Bio

WHAT?
#3 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just saying that Joker and Robin are two characters with a similar M.O. (colorful showman with a penchant for wisecracks) who represent polar forces in Batman's life.
#4 Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir (18976 posts) - - Show Bio
@VampireSelektor said:
" I'm just saying that Joker and Robin are two characters with a similar M.O. (colorful showman with a penchant for wisecracks) who represent polar forces in Batman's life. "

 
Where as one is his greatest ally, the other is his greatest enemy. 
In Dark Strikes Again , Dick Grayson was the Joker
#5 Posted by primepower53 (5591 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:
"WHAT? "
#6 Posted by DomDom (998 posts) - - Show Bio

   >Whhhat?  R u suggesting that Grayson is in the slightest way "like" the Joker??  That's just-just-just, not true! o_O
#7 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio
@DomDom:

Well... yes and no.  
 
As mentioned earlier, both Joker and Grayson, especially in the latter's tenure as Robin, possess similar attributes but represent two opposing values in Batman's life. The Joker wears a colorful garb and murders like the damned  in order to mock the chaotic and meaningless nature of life. Grayson, on the other hand, sports his striking outfit in order to brighten Batman's disposition and keep him from turning into a marauder.   If it helps,imagine  Joker and Grayson as devil and angel, each on Batman's left and right shoulder, respectively, subtly influencing our favorite Caped Crusader.
#8 Posted by DomDom (998 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah, I see.  =)  Grayson=Angel, Joker=Devil, and Batman the one having to listen to both babbling to each side of his pointy ears.  Got it.  =)
#9 Posted by velle37 (6037 posts) - - Show Bio

Both of them are there to counter Batman's dark gloomy nature........ 
 
But from opposite sides of morality...... 
 
Robin was there to be optimistic and cheer Batman up... 
 
To bring a light to his darkness......
 
Joker came with a twisted sense of humor as an antithesis to how serious Batman was........... 
 
Bringing up the continuous themes of Tragedy and Comedy from greek plays......
#10 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio

MIND = BLOWN

#11 Posted by AgentOfAnarchy (132 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" MIND = BLOWN "
#12 Posted by comicdude23 (11331 posts) - - Show Bio

mentally=yes 
physically=no

#13 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio
@comicdude23:
Thematically: Yes.   
 
What sort of physique does the Joker have nowadays?  He seemed pretty solid as Oberon Sexton.
#14 Posted by Jake Fury (19210 posts) - - Show Bio


 
Online
#15 Posted by andrea_mendoza1997 (334 posts) - - Show Bio
@DomDom: Backin you uo I agree maybe cunning but other than that nope !!!!!!!!!
#16 Posted by junkmasterzero (249 posts) - - Show Bio
@VampireSelektor: I thought he was talking about Damian.
#17 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio
@junkmasterzero:
Damian, despite being Batman's son, is not as integral to the Bat-mythology. I will say that Morrison depicted the son of Batman as realistically as possible: a brilliant, spoiled asshole, just like "Bruce Wayne" ; ).
#18 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio
@andrea_mendoza1997:
Why?
#19 Posted by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

When Joker invades Nightwing in DOTF I have a feeling this is a tactic the Clown Prince will use to his advantage. Likening Grayson to his own self.

#20 Posted by richardjohngrayson (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:

@VampireSelektor said:
" I'm just saying that Joker and Robin are two characters with a similar M.O. (colorful showman with a penchant for wisecracks) who represent polar forces in Batman's life. "
Where as one is his greatest ally, the other is his greatest enemy. In Dark Strikes Again , Dick Grayson was the Joker

I don't even wanna talk about it . Frank Miller s**t all over Dick Grayson in The Dark Knight Strikes Again and All Star Batman and Robin i'll never forgive Frank Miller.

#21 Posted by richardjohngrayson (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@velle37 said:

Both of them are there to counter Batman's dark gloomy nature........ But from opposite sides of morality...... Robin was there to be optimistic and cheer Batman up... To bring a light to his darkness...... Joker came with a twisted sense of humor as an antithesis to how serious Batman was........... Bringing up the continuous themes of Tragedy and Comedy from greek plays......

this

#22 Posted by TheAnnihilator (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

@richardjohngrayson: It was non-canon, it's fine. It was interesting to say the least. To see Batman's greatest ally become his greatest enemy.

#23 Posted by richardjohngrayson (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAnnihilator said:

@richardjohngrayson: It was non-canon, it's fine. It was interesting to say the least. To see Batman's greatest ally become his greatest enemy.

fine for you blasphemy to me.

#24 Posted by KNlGHTWlNG (25 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO you could argue most of the characters in the Bat-family are traits or themes or twisted mirrors of Batman, just like you could argue all the villains are too.

Grayson= Batman without the darkness, heir to his legacy, a leader. Todd= If he let himself go on his no killing rule, his biggest mistake. Drake= The genius, Batman's greatest protege. Damian= If the darkness was all Batman knew, him without learning compassion, hope, love before his parents were murdered.

Joker= his foil, anti-Batman. Two-Face= If he couldn't handle being both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Penguin= If he used his wealth and intelligence for evil. Poison Ivy= If Batman's dedication to his job went way to far. Killer Croc = The animal that's inside. Bane= If he used his physicality and intelligence for evil.

These are all real quick and just a few characters. But I think given enough time one could argue more in depth and about everyone in the Batman Universe.

#25 Edited by Romulus9000 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@DomDom: Well... yes and no. As mentioned earlier, both Joker and Grayson, especially in the latter's tenure as Robin, possess similar attributes but represent two opposing values in Batman's life. The Joker wears a colorful garb and murders like the damned in order to mock the chaotic and meaningless nature of life. Grayson, on the other hand, sports his striking outfit in order to brighten Batman's disposition and keep him from turning into a marauder. If it helps,imagine Joker and Grayson as devil and angel, each on Batman's left and right shoulder, respectively, subtly influencing our favorite Caped Crusader.

look, i understand what you are saying, and in a terrible graphic novel by frank miller your thoughts have been confirmed, however, the same could be said about many characters. In your theory Superman = Joker. Do you see why people are saying this is ridiculous now?

#26 Edited by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Romulus9000 No, and unless I am mistaken, The Dark Strikes Again was not used as an example in the original post. What I am saying is that out of all the allies Batman garnered throughout the years, it is the example of Dick Grayson that urges Batman to maintain his heroic career, contrasting the Joker and his attempts to lead Batman astray. Look, when Batman debuted in Detective Comics #27, he was a murderous, pulpy crimebuster. When did Batman become a superhero? When the DC editorial staff introduced Robin in Detective Comics #38, to make brighten and decency to the character. A month later, Joker arrived in Batman #1, complete with colorful profile, whimsical attitude, considerable battle prowess and agility, but reverse sense of morality to the heroes. I claimed in the original post that when one compares Dick and Joker, their similarities, their differences, their characteristics mirror one another, a la Miho (good) and Kevin (evil) in Sin City. Can you establish a dynamic between the Joker and another classic, long-lasting ally of Batman where their attributes were so similar but their values were starkly opposed to one another? Even in the New52, Dick was the one person to refute the overwhelming dread Bruce felt when his perceived mastery of Gotham and its secrets during the Court of Owls saga, deeming the group as just another obstacle. Joker, on the other hand, has spent most of his modern career trying to drive Batman to insanity and hopelessness (paralyzingly Barbara Gordon, murdering Jason Todd, initially agreeing to play host to the Black Glove), yet only (but knowingly) making Batman stronger in the process. @KNIGHTWING I am surprised to admit it, but Dick is not the heir to the cowl. As Snyder opined, Dick is his own man, potentially even a better hero than Batman. In my original post, the sixteen, Morrison-penned issues of Batman and Robin were the chief example, collectively. When Dick donned the pointy ears, and his detractors labeled him a fraud, they were, in a way, right. Dick was a great Batman, but he was not THE BATMAN, the (until now) most legendary, shrouded force in Gotham. Dick suffered a crisis of confidence for much of the Dr. Hurt saga. The passing of Bruce charged Dick with 1) keeping the family together and 2) rearing Damian in the same values that Bruce instilled in him while saving him from the same character defects he shared with his father, and he succeeded. Joker was caught in a similar situation, losing confidence in his very purpose in life after his whole world seemingly felled to Darkseid. The path towards rejuvenation led Joker to fighting alongside Bruce, Dick, and Damian against Dr. Hurt, who, interestingly, disrespected Joker via his devaluing of Batman (the idea) as the most potent element of Gotham. Was it not Joker who galvanized Damian into action, who motivated him to live up the example of "the best Boy Wonder" and swoop in to save the day? Dick and Joker both did their part to uphold the Batman legacy and shape Damian into a worthy heir. Also, are Dick and Joker not renowned for their impeccable timing? Who appeared out of nowhere to finally stop Dr. Hurt? Joker. Who unexpectedly appeared to ruin the reunion of Jason Todd and his mother AND validate a fear Batman developed during Dick's Robin heyday? Joker. Who has an entire thread dedicated to his lovable deus-ex-machina, save-the-day pop-ins? Dick. Jason and Tim are great, formidable characters with their own deep, personal connections to Batman, but their importance to the man pales in comparison to Dick and Joker. DC conceived Dick as an audience surrogate, the personification of the youthful optimism from the readers, meant to lift Batman from pulpy ambiguity. Likewise, Joker personifies the horror and brutality Batman faced and dished out in his earliest stories. The Batman-as-Dick vs. a normal Joker from past stories did not translate onto comics due to a lack of chemistry; the two work best as poles on each side of a "neutral" Batman. Funny how Dick gained his own archnemesis in James Gordon, Jr. (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and decides to ultimately remain a murderer) and Damian (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and ultimately redeems himself), and there's Dick in the middle, the eternal optimist, struggling to save the day in the meantime. What does Superman have to do with Gotham? Does Superman live in Gotham, does he owe his reason for doing what he does to the influence of Gotham or Batman? No.

#27 Posted by Romulus9000 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Romulus9000 No, and unless I am mistaken, The Dark Strikes Again was not used as an example in the original post. What I am saying is that out of all the allies Batman garnered throughout the years, it is the example of Dick Grayson that urges Batman to maintain his heroic career, contrasting the Joker and his attempts to lead Batman astray. Look, when Batman debuted in Detective Comics #27, he was a murderous, pulpy crimebuster. When did Batman become a superhero? When the DC editorial staff introduced Robin in Detective Comics #38, to make brighten and decency to the character. A month later, Joker arrived in Batman #1, complete with colorful profile, whimsical attitude, considerable battle prowess and agility, but reverse sense of morality to the heroes. I claimed in the original post that when one compares Dick and Joker, their similarities, their differences, their characteristics mirror one another, a la Miho (good) and Kevin (evil) in Sin City. Can you establish a dynamic between the Joker and another classic, long-lasting ally of Batman where their attributes were so similar but their values were starkly opposed to one another? Even in the New52, Dick was the one person to refute the overwhelming dread Bruce felt when his perceived mastery of Gotham and its secrets during the Court of Owls saga, deeming the group as just another obstacle. Joker, on the other hand, has spent most of his modern career trying to drive Batman to insanity and hopelessness (paralyzingly Barbara Gordon, murdering Jason Todd, initially agreeing to play host to the Black Glove), yet only (but knowingly) making Batman stronger in the process. @KNIGHTWING I am surprised to admit it, but Dick is not the heir to the cowl. As Snyder opined, Dick is his own man, potentially even a better hero than Batman. In my original post, the sixteen, Morrison-penned issues of Batman and Robin were the chief example, collectively. When Dick donned the pointy ears, and his detractors labeled him a fraud, they were, in a way, right. Dick was a great Batman, but he was not THE BATMAN, the (until now) most legendary, shrouded force in Gotham. Dick suffered a crisis of confidence for much of the Dr. Hurt saga. The passing of Bruce charged Dick with 1) keeping the family together and 2) rearing Damian in the same values that Bruce instilled in him while saving him from the same character defects he shared with his father, and he succeeded. Joker was caught in a similar situation, losing confidence in his very purpose in life after his whole world seemingly felled to Darkseid. The path towards rejuvenation led Joker to fighting alongside Bruce, Dick, and Damian against Dr. Hurt, who, interestingly, disrespected Joker via his devaluing of Batman (the idea) as the most potent element of Gotham. Was it not Joker who galvanized Damian into action, who motivated him to live up the example of "the best Boy Wonder" and swoop in to save the day? Dick and Joker both did their part to uphold the Batman legacy and shape Damian into a worthy heir. Also, are Dick and Joker not renowned for their impeccable timing? Who appeared out of nowhere to finally stop Dr. Hurt? Joker. Who unexpectedly appeared to ruin the reunion of Jason Todd and his mother AND validate a fear Batman developed during Dick's Robin heyday? Joker. Who has an entire thread dedicated to his lovable deus-ex-machina, save-the-day pop-ins? Dick. Jason and Tim are great, formidable characters with their own deep, personal connections to Batman, but their importance to the man pales in comparison to Dick and Joker. DC conceived Dick as an audience surrogate, the personification of the youthful optimism from the readers, meant to lift Batman from pulpy ambiguity. Likewise, Joker personifies the horror and brutality Batman faced and dished out in his earliest stories. The Batman-as-Dick vs. a normal Joker from past stories did not translate onto comics due to a lack of chemistry; the two work best as poles on each side of a "neutral" Batman. Funny how Dick gained his own archnemesis in James Gordon, Jr. (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and decides to ultimately remain a murderer) and Damian (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and ultimately redeems himself), and there's Dick in the middle, the eternal optimist, struggling to save the day in the meantime. What does Superman have to do with Gotham? Does Superman live in Gotham, does he owe his reason for doing what he does to the influence of Gotham or Batman? No.

what i said was clearly at DomDom. Not at you.

#28 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Romulus9000 Oh. Mea culpa. Still, what did DomDom post that was "ridiculous"? His two posts were hardly more than two sentences, each. What did I fail to pick up on earlier?

#29 Posted by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@Romulus9000 No, and unless I am mistaken, The Dark Strikes Again was not used as an example in the original post. What I am saying is that out of all the allies Batman garnered throughout the years, it is the example of Dick Grayson that urges Batman to maintain his heroic career, contrasting the Joker and his attempts to lead Batman astray. Look, when Batman debuted in Detective Comics #27, he was a murderous, pulpy crimebuster. When did Batman become a superhero? When the DC editorial staff introduced Robin in Detective Comics #38, to make brighten and decency to the character. A month later, Joker arrived in Batman #1, complete with colorful profile, whimsical attitude, considerable battle prowess and agility, but reverse sense of morality to the heroes. I claimed in the original post that when one compares Dick and Joker, their similarities, their differences, their characteristics mirror one another, a la Miho (good) and Kevin (evil) in Sin City. Can you establish a dynamic between the Joker and another classic, long-lasting ally of Batman where their attributes were so similar but their values were starkly opposed to one another? Even in the New52, Dick was the one person to refute the overwhelming dread Bruce felt when his perceived mastery of Gotham and its secrets during the Court of Owls saga, deeming the group as just another obstacle. Joker, on the other hand, has spent most of his modern career trying to drive Batman to insanity and hopelessness (paralyzingly Barbara Gordon, murdering Jason Todd, initially agreeing to play host to the Black Glove), yet only (but knowingly) making Batman stronger in the process. @KNIGHTWING I am surprised to admit it, but Dick is not the heir to the cowl. As Snyder opined, Dick is his own man, potentially even a better hero than Batman. In my original post, the sixteen, Morrison-penned issues of Batman and Robin were the chief example, collectively. When Dick donned the pointy ears, and his detractors labeled him a fraud, they were, in a way, right. Dick was a great Batman, but he was not THE BATMAN, the (until now) most legendary, shrouded force in Gotham. Dick suffered a crisis of confidence for much of the Dr. Hurt saga. The passing of Bruce charged Dick with 1) keeping the family together and 2) rearing Damian in the same values that Bruce instilled in him while saving him from the same character defects he shared with his father, and he succeeded. Joker was caught in a similar situation, losing confidence in his very purpose in life after his whole world seemingly felled to Darkseid. The path towards rejuvenation led Joker to fighting alongside Bruce, Dick, and Damian against Dr. Hurt, who, interestingly, disrespected Joker via his devaluing of Batman (the idea) as the most potent element of Gotham. Was it not Joker who galvanized Damian into action, who motivated him to live up the example of "the best Boy Wonder" and swoop in to save the day? Dick and Joker both did their part to uphold the Batman legacy and shape Damian into a worthy heir. Also, are Dick and Joker not renowned for their impeccable timing? Who appeared out of nowhere to finally stop Dr. Hurt? Joker. Who unexpectedly appeared to ruin the reunion of Jason Todd and his mother AND validate a fear Batman developed during Dick's Robin heyday? Joker. Who has an entire thread dedicated to his lovable deus-ex-machina, save-the-day pop-ins? Dick. Jason and Tim are great, formidable characters with their own deep, personal connections to Batman, but their importance to the man pales in comparison to Dick and Joker. DC conceived Dick as an audience surrogate, the personification of the youthful optimism from the readers, meant to lift Batman from pulpy ambiguity. Likewise, Joker personifies the horror and brutality Batman faced and dished out in his earliest stories. The Batman-as-Dick vs. a normal Joker from past stories did not translate onto comics due to a lack of chemistry; the two work best as poles on each side of a "neutral" Batman. Funny how Dick gained his own archnemesis in James Gordon, Jr. (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and decides to ultimately remain a murderer) and Damian (a murderous person unsure of whether to go straight, and ultimately redeems himself), and there's Dick in the middle, the eternal optimist, struggling to save the day in the meantime. What does Superman have to do with Gotham? Does Superman live in Gotham, does he owe his reason for doing what he does to the influence of Gotham or Batman? No.

The 'wing rage is strong in this one.

*Raises arm

.....Winner!

#30 Posted by VampireSelektor (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@KNlGHTWlNG said:

IMO you could argue most of the characters in the Bat-family are traits or themes or twisted mirrors of Batman, just like you could argue all the villains are too.

Grayson= Batman without the darkness, heir to his legacy, a leader. Todd= If he let himself go on his no killing rule, his biggest mistake. Drake= The genius, Batman's greatest protege. Damian= If the darkness was all Batman knew, him without learning compassion, hope, love before his parents were murdered.

Joker= his foil, anti-Batman. Two-Face= If he couldn't handle being both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Penguin= If he used his wealth and intelligence for evil. Poison Ivy= If Batman's dedication to his job went way to far. Killer Croc = The animal that's inside. Bane= If he used his physicality and intelligence for evil.

These are all real quick and just a few characters. But I think given enough time one could argue more in depth and about everyone in the Batman Universe.

Yes, you could, but Dick and Joker are more integral to the Bat-mythology. Did you read the long-long post above?

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