Are the big wigs over at DC deliberately holding Nightwing down? Similar to the "Can Nightwing surpass Batman" thread-- How long will editors continue to stunt his growth? Are they petrified Dick will develop enough to the point where he'll basically overthrow his mentor and take his seat in the JLA? Something is certainly rotten in rottingham..

Well lets kick this thread off properly then. The short answer is a very solid Yes. And really its not just Dick, his contemporaries suffer from it as well. Donna Troy (Though at various times its not harder for a character to be better written than Wonder Woman, she has been known to disappear for various lengths of time and then be thrown onto a team), Wally West (Held his own successfully for decades, said by many to have surpassed his mentor ,but as soon as Barry came back he was kicked to the curb and thrown into limbo), Tempest (He is the one I have never truly understood. Aquaman has suffered from some truly awful writing over the years, and this has reflected on his former ward's career as well. He disappears more than Donna), Red A...Arsenal (Do I even need to mention the character assassination that Cry for Justice and his so called Rise?)

The big shot mentors at DC are iconic figures and have been around for years. They bring in money and are popular. With that iconic status comes an unwillingness to ever let them go or see them replaced. Therefore, characters that are similar to them (Like former apprentices) will either be put in limbo and not show up in any set place for months to years at a time, or be saddled with substandard storylines that don't tap into the characters full potential.

We've all debated at various times on whether or not Nightwing was ready for the Justice League (He is if you're wondering, Flashpoint or not he is) and why he wasn't on the team if he was ready. The answer is because Bruce is on the team. Realistically, the characters are too similar (Not to devoted fans maybe, but to the average reader) that it would be redundant to have both characters on the team at the same time. This leads to 2 questions. 1) Why have both of them on the team when you could have another character? Again, they are too similar in the eyes of most people, so writers would naturally want another character on the team to bring a different set to the group and allow for different matchups and plots. 2) Why have Nightwing on the team and not Batman? If a writer chose to have Nightwing on the team and then have Bruce just chilling in Gotham people would wonder why a big time hero like Batman wasn't on the team, but his former sidekick was.

This of course leads to fan complaint, and to Bruce being chosen over Dick every time (Despite the ridiculous amount of commitments he has already. Batman Inc. Robin, Gotham, and however many stories he's got going on there, Outsiders, etc.) It seems that unless Bruce is lost in time (Obsidian Age) or "dead" Dick can never get a seat at that table. TAnd what's even worse, the real instult of it all, is that they'll have characters acknowledge in story that he's ready for the Justice League and deserves the honor, but have Dick himself decline the position for whatever contrived reason. Its like the character himself is aware of what would happen if he was on the team for the long term.

I think what it comes down to is a very real fear that the apprentice could surpass the master, and I can even understand it, but writers don't deal with it in the proper way. In terms of the Justice League, writers need to stop trying to write Bruce as the man who can be everywhere and do everything and focus more on the characters actual limitations. There's no need for him to be on the Justice League when his right hand man is free and capable to take up the position. Especially when being on the team suits Dick far more than it does Bruce in terms of personality (Dick's a people person, goals (Bruce constantly goes on about how Gotham is his main priority), and time. (As i've said, Bruce has a more than full schedule. Dick doesn't. And with him no longer...no longer being a founding member of the Teen Titans and serving in that constant mentor position his schedule's free as a bird) If writers really want Bruce to be on the Justice League that badly then they can simply have Dick be on a different, but still solidly built League. Wouldn't be the first time there was more than one League active (Hell they're about to start another League series soon anyways) and it'd allow both characters to operate at that big time status, make an impact, and not constantly being placed side by side where writers will inevitably compare them and either have them one upping each other or showing how Dick is inferior to Bruce.

I agree. DC has strung Nightwing on for years and has constantly denied him the opertunity to grow. there is no justifiable reason left at this point for him not to be in the same level as other justice league members. The real problem is how can DC establish him without him being to similar to Bats to generic readers. Along with Nathaniels point he could go to an established league. In my opinion there was no reason Nightwing couldnt have been placed on JL International. It would be easily believable for him to be placed on the league as the leader because he is so well respected by other DCU heros. He could have served the same role as Bats in the monitoring the league and making sure its legit. However thats impossible now since that JLI has been canceled. Maybe he could find a place on Earth 2. I mean he was part of Earth 2 before as Robin and there seems to be no "batman character" as of yet. Like there is a Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, Flash, and Wonderwoman. thats one option.

However in my opinion I say let Nightwing grow and establish him properly. Theres no telling how well it will work until they try it and if fails put him in limbo for him a while and reintroduce him in his current role. I really think it will be a postive move though, I mean his tenure as Batman while Bruce was away was pretty well recived. Honestly DC has been dragging the last decade and has seen there sales drop. its the whole reason behind the relaunch. a relaunch that goes back to the same old stories doesnt make any sense, this is a perfect time to try new things and some of the New 52 ideas have been successful and some havent but doing nothing isnt going to help DC in the long run. The New 52 momentum will ware off eventually and without new and interesting ideas DC will be in the same spot.

@SmoothJammin @Nathaniel_Christopher :

Great to be back and bringing this to the fore. I wonder how closely the bigwigs at DC and similar companies monitor threads such as these? As @Nightwingdg stated above (and we have discussed elsewhere) Dick Grayson has enjoyed several media appearances from TAS, TNAS, The Batman, Under the Red Hood, Teen Titans and now with Young Justice. I think that the fact he's shown up in so many different animated media (and had such prominent roles) really points to his growing popularity. I would even, dare say, that it is unconscionable for the folks who grew up around the time I did (when Toonami was in its glory days) to fathom a Batman without a Robin. And with Dick's current run in YJ, we might even get to see him don the batsuit (it could easily happen since Bruce is offworld and he is kind of isolating himself the Team). So with all this happening, it kind of indicates that someone high in the DC foodchain realizes how big of a draw Dick can be. So why haven't they moved him forward in comics? I think the sentiments on this thread are the only logical reason unless they truly are missing the goldmine they have (which, from the evidence above, doesn't seem to be the case).

@RitchieB said:

I agree. DC has strung Nightwing on for years and has constantly denied him the opertunity to grow. there is no justifiable reason left at this point for him not to be in the same level as other justice league members. The real problem is how can DC establish him without him being to similar to Bats to generic readers. Along with Nathaniels point he could go to an established league. In my opinion there was no reason Nightwing couldnt have been placed on JL International. It would be easily believable for him to be placed on the league as the leader because he is so well respected by other DCU heros. He could have served the same role as Bats in the monitoring the league and making sure its legit. However thats impossible now since that JLI has been canceled. Maybe he could find a place on Earth 2. I mean he was part of Earth 2 before as Robin and there seems to be no "batman character" as of yet. Like there is a Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, Flash, and Wonderwoman. thats one option.

However in my opinion I say let Nightwing grow and establish him properly. Theres no telling how well it will work until they try it and if fails put him in limbo for him a while and reintroduce him in his current role. I really think it will be a postive move though, I mean his tenure as Batman while Bruce was away was pretty well recived. Honestly DC has been dragging the last decade and has seen there sales drop. its the whole reason behind the relaunch. a relaunch that goes back to the same old stories doesnt make any sense, this is a perfect time to try new things and some of the New 52 ideas have been successful and some havent but doing nothing isnt going to help DC in the long run. The New 52 momentum will ware off eventually and without new and interesting ideas DC will be in the same spot.

Justice league International has been cancelled? personally, I would kind of like to see him do in this universe what he did in the old one: take a bunch of B-listers and make a solid team. They sort of took all of Dick's success from previous years and gave it to Tim with him founding the Titans and building off of the name left from the old uni. Thats ok. Dick can pull it off again. It would also give a chance for some newer/interesting team dynamics. I'd like to see Powergirl and Dick on a team (I didn't read her comic previously). Maybe Huntress. maybe see how he interacts with the other members of Inc since DC won't shut that down like I want them to. lol

what do you guys think? @SmoothJammin @Nathaniel_Christopher

@vernierhawk001

Yep JLI has offically has been canceled heres a link https://readrant.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/new-52-news-justice-league-international-canceled/

@SmoothJammin: I felt the same way when seeing Nightwing in any big movie with Batman. Like in Under the Red Hood when Nightwing sprains his ankle then is out for the rest of the film. I was like really DC can't have some spotlight for Dick in this film.@Nathaniel_Christopher: Also have to agree with the Wally statement how at a time he was beyond Barry, but as soon as he returned Wally lost all his fame and was "second fastest". It really does get tedious though. At times when you think Dick what is holding you back? He could become stronger, train more in the martial arts, or even become a better detective (smart wise). But no he can't do that. Why you may ask? Because it would threaten Batman the mentor, the original. Though it pains me to say it writers may never put Dick beyond his normal level and increase a certain aspect of him because then there would be a debate of whether or not Batman is better.

@vernierhawk001 His history with the Teen Titans is gone. I'll never understand it, I don't like it, but i've made peace with it. However, Dick's a natural born leader. Always has been, always will be. As i've said before not having him on a team is simply a waste of the character. I agree with your idea to have him create a brand new team (And later he needs to join a Justice League that Bruce isn't part of. I didn't know JLI was cancelled, but that's fine. Let him be a part of a newly formed team later) Bring together some characters we've never seen before and really just let Dick make something out of them, and we can have a story on our hands. Powergirl's suffered from some truly terrible writing over the years. Similar to Jason Todd and Donna Troy, but unlike Donna they never just threw her into limbo. They always kept her somewhere she could be seen, but never seemed to know what to do with her. Every team needs a powerhouse so if the character's handled properly I wouldn't mind seeing her. I think it would be good for the team to be mostly B-listers working there way up the chain, a few new heroes as well.

@PlasticBag Pretty much. Its the same reason as I said that you can't have Dick and Bruce on the same team. Because then people get caught up in comparing the two instead of writing a decent story and developing both equally along with the rest of the team.

I think DC needs to decide on what they want to do with all the former sidekicks (Though they also need to plan out the next year of the New 52) because you can't have a sidekick "graduate" and then still be treated as a sidekick or act like he/she is equal to a current sidekick. It undermines the entire process. Roy went through it for years before he was finally given his shot, and what happened when he was put on the JLA? He did well! we got some good stories and character development out of him before the team fell apart and then Roy was "assassinated" to make way for Arsenal. If a character is going to leave the next and take on this new role as a hero, they have to be allowed to stand on their own. I'm not talking a solo series for everyone (because lord knows many can't pull that off) but get them on a team. Work on them, build them up, give them their own cities, market their identities and eventually lead into a solo series, so that the character can be more use to the franchise than just occasionally appearing in their mentor's book.

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 His history with the Teen Titans is gone. I'll never understand it, I don't like it, but i've made peace with it. However, Dick's a natural born leader. Always has been, always will be. As i've said before not having him on a team is simply a waste of the character. I agree with your idea to have him create a brand new team (And later he needs to join a Justice League that Bruce isn't part of. I didn't know JLI was cancelled, but that's fine. Let him be a part of a newly formed team later) Bring together some characters we've never seen before and really just let Dick make something out of them, and we can have a story on our hands. Powergirl's suffered from some truly terrible writing over the years. Similar to Jason Todd and Donna Troy, but unlike Donna they never just threw her into limbo. They always kept her somewhere she could be seen, but never seemed to know what to do with her. Every team needs a powerhouse so if the character's handled properly I wouldn't mind seeing her. I think it would be good for the team to be mostly B-listers working there way up the chain, a few new heroes as well.

@PlasticBag Pretty much. Its the same reason as I said that you can't have Dick and Bruce on the same team. Because then people get caught up in comparing the two instead of writing a decent story and developing both equally along with the rest of the team.

I think DC needs to decide on what they want to do with all the former sidekicks (Though they also need to plan out the next year of the New 52) because you can't have a sidekick "graduate" and then still be treated as a sidekick or act like he/she is equal to a current sidekick. It undermines the entire process. Roy went through it for years before he was finally given his shot, and what happened when he was put on the JLA? He did well! we got some good stories and character development out of him before the team fell apart and then Roy was "assassinated" to make way for Arsenal. If a character is going to leave the next and take on this new role as a hero, they have to be allowed to stand on their own. I'm not talking a solo series for everyone (because lord knows many can't pull that off) but get them on a team. Work on them, build them up, give them their own cities, market their identities and eventually lead into a solo series, so that the character can be more use to the franchise than just occasionally appearing in their mentor's book.

Its funny because I think that Bruce and Nightwing on the same team work if handled delicately. Could lead to a bunch of awkward moments for some levity but also show the growing respect between the two as the characters grow to view each other as equals. In fact, doing this, I wouldn't really see Dick going back to being Batman except when needed. Maybe I need to think about that more. I was going to point to Young justice (the show) as a good example of the two working as equals kind of in parallel but we only got to see a snippet of that at the beginning of Season 2. From that 1-2 episodes and very limited dialogue, we get to see that Batman not only respects Nightwing's opinion (Nightwing: "Batman, the missing 16 hours!" Batman: "Agreed") but we also even see Bruce defer to Nightwing during the fighting mission against the Kroloteans. So it could work.....the question is can they get a writer who could do as well as Greg and Brandon.....

@PsychoKnights said:

(sigh) As far as I can tell, his recent characterization has just been another aspect of the DCNU. It makes sense really. If he had only had five years of experience as a hero, then he should not be nearly as skilled as he was pre-reboot when he had more like fourteen years. It only makes sense for Dick to be less skilled.

Of course, I'm all for repealing the reboot myself. Most of their successes in the New 52 had nothing to do with the reboot anyway.

The trouble is, whilst Dick has less experience as a hero (only in his 5th year at the start of the New 52, aged 21), he has already survived as Batman for a year whilst Bruce was 'dead'. He basically became Batman in Year 4 of the timeline, this would mean that he had 3 years prior experience, this in itself should probably be viewed as 2.5 years experience due to the couple of months where Bruce didn't train him initially after his parent's died. Now whilst this does just show what a clusterf**k the New 52 timeline is, its equally worth looking at this from another perspective. Surely its a mark of Dick's skill that he was able to fill Bruce's position for a year at a very young age and with effectively 2.5 years of training/experience behind him? If anything you might argue that in some respects Dick is more skilled now than he was pre-reboot.

As I've said before now. DC no longer has a legitimate reason to hold Dick down and make him a second rate character like they did before Bruce 'died' pre-flashpoint, the various comics pre-flashpoint which featured Dick as Batman were all well received and successful so its not like they can say that they'd see a downturn in sales if they were to have Dick replace Bruce again. I don't think it's any coincidence that the best stories we've seen, which have Dick as a central character, have been done by A-list writers such as Morrison, Snyder and Dixon (note that whilst Higgins is good, he won't be regarded as such if he kills Dick, he's probably upper B-list at best). Give a really good/great writer the chance to write Dick Grayson and they'll produce something memorable every time. Interestingly enough of the three A-list writers I mentioned two of them only wrote Dick whilst he was Batman (they'd never have been asked to write him as Nightwing) and Dixon's run on Nightwing conveniently ended before it got too good.

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

no he is less experienced by any measure, as all the sidekicks are

their JV

wanting more spotlight I could understand but surpassing is laughable until Bats is clearly out of his prime in which due to age difference Dicks reign on top would be short lived

It is just outside of Higgins, Snyder and Morrison (who is basically leaving soon) no one at DC seems to have any interest in promoting the character. Maybe they think if they do it will make Bruce look too old, but I don't know. I remember several years ago Mark Waid (who is writing that award winning Daredevil book now) was begging DC to let him write a Nightwing book when he was at DC but they didn't let him. Really would have loved to see what he could have done with the character.

I mean with the success of YJ and how well Nightwing's solo is doing it is just bizarre they don't want to use/promote the character more. I like Higgins take on the character, he has his voice down, but he was a complete unknown before landing the Nightwing title and the stories he is telling are okay. So I am surprised to see the title doing as well as it is, especially given how nearly every character (from villains to supporting characters) in the book are new characters. I would like to see him move beyond this circus setting and start to tell larger stories. But given how new Higgins is he probably doesn't have the freedom to do that, and they did completely gut the character's history to help flesh out the other Robin's history with this compressed time line they forced in to the New 52, so maybe he doesn't have much to go on, but it is such a shame to see how the character has regressed after all that growth he went though before the relaunch.

My big fear is that when they finally start to allow the character to interact with more of the DCU they are just going to put him back into the teen line of books like what they are doing with so many of his former contemporaries (Beast Boy, Terra, Raven, ect.). They should put him with the JL characters. He deserves to be up there. He doesn't have to be on the JL team (I'd prefer him leading a JL: Outsiders book myself) but he should be interacting with them.

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

To be honest Dick being able to don the cowl for a year with such a small amount of experience and at such a young age to me entails that in the long term he will surpass Bruce without too much issue. Look at how much training Bruce went through, then compare to the amount Dick went through before taking on the cowl, obviously you can just take it as another sign of how messed up the New 52 is but equally it could also show that in the long term Dick will surpass Bruce as his rate of growth seems to be faster than Bruce's.

@LuigiBat said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

To be honest Dick being able to don the cowl for a year with such a small amount of experience and at such a young age to me entails that in the long term he will surpass Bruce without too much issue. Look at how much training Bruce went through, then compare to the amount Dick went through before taking on the cowl, obviously you can just take it as another sign of how messed up the New 52 is but equally it could also show that in the long term Dick will surpass Bruce as his rate of growth seems to be faster than Bruce's.

I agree. I've never had a problem with the idea, and it makes perfect sense for Dick to surpass Bruce. I just believe that the bigwigs at DC don't want this to happen and therefore do everything they can to hold the character back at certain points. To make sure he never really reaches his full potential.

@Munsu With Dick, its just as you said. The majority of his history was "gutted", so many old characters that could've appeared now simply don't exist to appear. I feel that Higgins can only go so far, so while i'd love to see some real major storylines, i'd also like to see him start small first. As i've said, what Dick needs (That he really didn't even have right before Flashpoint) is a solid rogues gallery.

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

Yeah. And in response to some of your other posts about how much experience was gutted in the New 52, it didn't occur to me until recently how much not having him on the Titans messes up his background. Sigh...

@vernierhawk001 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

Yeah. And in response to some of your other posts about how much experience was gutted in the New 52, it didn't occur to me until recently how much not having him on the Titans messes up his background. Sigh...

Yeah its really easy to think he was always the same character he was Pre-Flashpoint. But he wasn't. He used to be the kid who always yelled "Holy______ Batman!!!"

I think he needs his own sidekick

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@Munsu With Dick, its just as you said. The majority of his history was "gutted", so many old characters that could've appeared now simply don't exist to appear. I feel that Higgins can only go so far, so while i'd love to see some real major storylines, i'd also like to see him start small first. As i've said, what Dick needs (That he really didn't even have right before Flashpoint) is a solid rogues gallery.

All Higgins has been doing so far is small stories though. They haven't been bad, but he needs to start expanding Dick's presence, if he is allowed to that is. I mean even Catwoman is going to have a larger role in the DCU and Jason is interacting with characters like Superman soon. Piratically all of Dick's big interactions happen outside his solo book. It just would be nice for those interactions to happen in HIS book for once. And Batman has plenty of rogues that haven't been introduced yet that could be introduced through the Nightwing title. Sure I doubt this would happen but it would be great to see villains like Clayface or Bane be used in his title instead of using them in one of the other 5 main Batman lead titles.

@lilcraig92 said:

I think he needs his own sidekick

Not yet.....if ever. A team book, maybe. Or just a pairing. My opinion, of course :)

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 The writer. That's what it comes down to, and I personally do not have faith in the DC Comics industry to bring on a writer, have him place Batman and Nightwing on the same team, and writer each character as they should be written. I agree with you it could work, but it would take a massive amount of skill and a lack of any bias whatsoever. @LuigiBat I completely agree. Even if we account for the loss of experience he's done Bruce's job for a year with a massive amount of success. Him going back to anywhere save an equal position to Bruce makes no sense.

Yeah. And in response to some of your other posts about how much experience was gutted in the New 52, it didn't occur to me until recently how much not having him on the Titans messes up his background. Sigh...

Yeah its really easy to think he was always the same character he was Pre-Flashpoint. But he wasn't. He used to be the kid who always yelled "Holy______ Batman!!!"

I have to say though, the New 52 characterization would be perfect for having him and Bruce on the same team like JLA. Especially after reading Batman 13 (soo epic, btw) I realized that the New 52 characterization really sets Bruce and Dick up moreso as equals...well "equals" might be a stretch. But def more like colleagues than mentor-mentee.

@Munsu said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@Munsu With Dick, its just as you said. The majority of his history was "gutted", so many old characters that could've appeared now simply don't exist to appear. I feel that Higgins can only go so far, so while i'd love to see some real major storylines, i'd also like to see him start small first. As i've said, what Dick needs (That he really didn't even have right before Flashpoint) is a solid rogues gallery.

All Higgins has been doing so far is small stories though. They haven't been bad, but he needs to start expanding Dick's presence, if he is allowed to that is. I mean even Catwoman is going to have a larger role in the DCU and Jason is interacting with characters like Superman soon. Piratically all of Dick's big interactions happen outside his solo book. It just would be nice for those interactions to happen in HIS book for once. And Batman has plenty of rogues that haven't been introduced yet that could be introduced through the Nightwing title. Sure I doubt this would happen but it would be great to see villains like Clayface or Bane be used in his title instead of using them in one of the other 5 main Batman lead titles.

I don't have any problem with rogues being reintroduced through Dick's title, but unless they're completely reinvented, they'll still be Bruce's rogues. Dick needs rogues of his own more than anything else. He always has.

@vernierhawk001 I've always been able to see them on the same team. It just comes down to the writers actually doing a good job. In the end I see it simply devolving into simply using Nightwing to make Batman look better.

@vernierhawk001 but they should find some type way bcuz he's about two years younger than batman in comic book years

@lilcraig92 said:

@vernierhawk001 but they should find some type way bcuz he's about two years younger than batman in comic book years

I think the age gap is a bit bigger than that but I'm not sure. I think my point is that I think a sidekick is too soon and too cliche for Dick, at this point. He is still doing the bachelor thing and I feel as though he's not really ready for a sidekick. While I DO think he needs a stronger supporting cast and I DO think they should take him outside of Gotham on some bigger stories< I think his interactions right now needs to be focused on stuff with his contemporaries. Have him go on an arc with Tim re-exploring the brother relationship that seems somewhat lost in the new 52. have him guest star in the Titans book. Have an arc with him and Babs teaming up...or have him run into the Outlaws (that'd be funny). But to have him with a sidekick right now I thik would actually limit the character. It worked pre-New 52 because the whole Damian-Dick thing took place during a time when Dick had a LOT more years under his belt as a crimefighter, had explored development on his own (TT, Outsiders, etc), was older and was finally dealing with the burden of succession: filling his "father's" shoes. Does this make any sense? i could try to explain better.....

@Gambler Because for better or worse the JLA is the big time. Being on that team means a great deal. Its not about taking Bruce's spot, its about having his own spot. However, the idea that you think of it that way is exactly why I can't see Dick being on the team if Bruce is out there or him being on the team at the same time as Bruce. People see him as Batman-Lite and nothing more, and would only see him as taking up Batman's spot. And Dick wanting to be his own man really has nothing to do with the JLA.

@vernierhawk001 said:

@lilcraig92 said:

@vernierhawk001 but they should find some type way bcuz he's about two years younger than batman in comic book years

I think the age gap is a bit bigger than that but I'm not sure. I think my point is that I think a sidekick is too soon and too cliche for Dick, at this point. He is still doing the bachelor thing and I feel as though he's not really ready for a sidekick. While I DO think he needs a stronger supporting cast and I DO think they should take him outside of Gotham on some bigger stories< I think his interactions right now needs to be focused on stuff with his contemporaries. Have him go on an arc with Tim re-exploring the brother relationship that seems somewhat lost in the new 52. have him guest star in the Titans book. Have an arc with him and Babs teaming up...or have him run into the Outlaws (that'd be funny). But to have him with a sidekick right now I thik would actually limit the character. It worked pre-New 52 because the whole Damian-Dick thing took place during a time when Dick had a LOT more years under his belt as a crimefighter, had explored development on his own (TT, Outsiders, etc), was older and was finally dealing with the burden of succession: filling his "father's" shoes. Does this make any sense? i could try to explain better.....

Naw i mean like his character debut

@lilcraig92 said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

@lilcraig92 said:

@vernierhawk001 but they should find some type way bcuz he's about two years younger than batman in comic book years

I think the age gap is a bit bigger than that but I'm not sure. I think my point is that I think a sidekick is too soon and too cliche for Dick, at this point. He is still doing the bachelor thing and I feel as though he's not really ready for a sidekick. While I DO think he needs a stronger supporting cast and I DO think they should take him outside of Gotham on some bigger stories< I think his interactions right now needs to be focused on stuff with his contemporaries. Have him go on an arc with Tim re-exploring the brother relationship that seems somewhat lost in the new 52. have him guest star in the Titans book. Have an arc with him and Babs teaming up...or have him run into the Outlaws (that'd be funny). But to have him with a sidekick right now I thik would actually limit the character. It worked pre-New 52 because the whole Damian-Dick thing took place during a time when Dick had a LOT more years under his belt as a crimefighter, had explored development on his own (TT, Outsiders, etc), was older and was finally dealing with the burden of succession: filling his "father's" shoes. Does this make any sense? i could try to explain better.....

Naw i mean like his character debut

Dont think I follow yu. Sorry. I can be slow sometimes :)

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@Gambler Because for better or worse the JLA is the big time. Being on that team means a great deal. Its not about taking Bruce's spot, its about having his own spot. However, the idea that you think of it that way is exactly why I can't see Dick being on the team if Bruce is out there or him being on the team at the same time as Bruce. People see him as Batman-Lite and nothing more, and would only see him as taking up Batman's spot. And Dick wanting to be his own man really has nothing to do with the JLA.

Lol...the more we talk about this, the more I want to see it happen. With the right writer the dialogue could be brilliant!

@Gambler said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@Gambler Because for better or worse the JLA is the big time. Being on that team means a great deal. Its not about taking Bruce's spot, its about having his own spot. However, the idea that you think of it that way is exactly why I can't see Dick being on the team if Bruce is out there or him being on the team at the same time as Bruce. People see him as Batman-Lite and nothing more, and would only see him as taking up Batman's spot. And Dick wanting to be his own man really has nothing to do with the JLA.

Only it has everything to do with it. I dont know about New 52 (cause it hasnt been explored) but Pre 52 it was explained that Dick was offered membership and didnt want it. He wanted his own thing, cause believe it or not, Nightwing joining the JLA doesnt just look like Batman-light, its is Batman-Light. You're entitled to your opinion, not trying to change it. But Nightwing turning down the JLA is badass. Its a character telling the big boys that I dont need to follow everyone elses path, I'm making my own. Otherwise him joining (even if Batman stepped down) brings what to the table? Nothing new that Batman didnt already represent. And so if he's truly trying to set his own mark joining the JLA is the last thing he needs to do. New 52 is great in the sense that the JLA arent really the cool kids club anymore. No Martian Manhunter, no Hal Jordan, let Nightwing establish something away from Batman as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise it devalues his entire stance of independence.

He never wanted to because Bruce was on the team, which is the reason why I don't see both ever being on the team at the same time. There was never a time Dick was on the Justice League at the same time as Bruce. Because that's the way the character is written. He doesn't turn down the offer because he wants to do his own thing, its because he doesn't see what he can add that Bruce can't. Its exactly as if a writer was speaking through Dick and telling readers why it doesn't happen. It was the exact same reason that during One Year Later Ollie didn't join the team when Roy did ad the reason why after the Obsidian Age Dick left the team. I don't think in terms of ability that he'll bring anything that Bruce can't, but that's not the point because that goes for any situation. If you get caught up in that you could just argue that you might as well not even have him in X situation if its possible for Bruce to be there. Again though, that's not the point. The point isn't for the character to specifically do something that Bruce can't, but to be placed in situations alongside the greats and be shown holding his own. For his character history and personality to come together to create a unique situation.

There are bigger things in the world than personal wants and desires, which is what has always led Dick to joining the team in the past, and which is what leads Bruce and many other members to join the team as well. The JLA serves a crucial role in the world. I don't think I need to say they're the Avengers of the DCU. The first line of defense, the people everyone looks to. They're seen as the best of the best, the examples people hold up to others, that means something not only in terms of a comic book world sense, but a real world sense as well. There is in effect a reason you have Batman on the JLA. He's one of the biggest, baddest superheroes around, so he's on the "best" superhero team around. That's the way the JLA has always been marketed. You have the big shots on the team. Dick being on the team sends a message and also serves to market the character, as it does other characters. I have no problem with Dick being on another team, or starting his own team, but there's an importance in gaining membership and working with the JLA.

I strongly disagree with the idea that being on the JLA devalues the idea of independence. That's basically saying that anything Batman does, Dick can't do or he's not being independent. So that covers being a superhero, driving a car, fighting in Gotham, working with a team, hell living in general. The JLA isn't Batman, just like being a superhero isn't Batman.

As you said though, its all opinion and I do agree that turning down the JLA is a nice statement.

@Gambler: I don't want him on JL/JLA either, but he should interact with those characters. He should be on their level. It took forever for him to finally break out of the teen line, but I am afraid that with the New 52 they are going to fold him back into that line like they have with other characters, aside from Cyborg. It is just a huge step back for the character. Ideally I would like to see Batman ask him to form his own JL: Outsiders team because of all the pressure from the JLA and government on the JL team. Make it like an X-Force/Secret Avengers book although maybe not as violent. That way he can be connected to this big superhero story that is being build up in the JL books yet he can still be his own character leading a team he picked to work with. Probably isn't going to happen, but I can at least imagine it. :<

@Gambler said:

In the Justice League zero issue (Flash Forward) it shows a past scene where Bruce is congratulating Dick on forming (his own thing) with the Titans. The very next issue it shows them all sitting around voting in new members. Diana and Superman are both like, "Yeah its well beyond time" (this is the DCU acknowledging Dick through the Big Two's own acknowledgment) and Batman says no. They're stunned, why not? Batman goes on to tell them that Dick turned it down. That he offered him a spot and Dick didn't want it. This further shows the DCU powers that be giving Nightwing props as now the complete set of the Big Three have jockeyed for his membership. Kinda blows the conspiracy theory out of the water with just that. If they were truly trying to, "Hold him back" they would have offered up the "He's not ready" or he's to, "unpredictable" or some other lame excuse. Instead they stay true to his character and sing his praise and make him look like the ultimate independent by rejecting their offer. What he'd bring to the table is exactly the point. How do you put Nightwing on the JLA and not have him come off as Batman? Thats what I mean by, "What does he bring to the table." They get attacked by an overpowering foe, what does Nightwing do? What does he use? His mind and tactical brilliance. Sound familiar? You trade out Batman and put in Nightwing its not elevating his character, its confirming Nightwing fans greatest fear, that he'll just end up like Batman. You can showcase Nightwing holding his own alongside great DC characters without putting him in the JLA, same with creating unique situations. You dont create unique situations by putting him on the team his mentor was just on. You'll have everyone saying he's the new Batman (I'm pretty sure he spent some time on the League and thats exactly what happened. Ollie made some sort of comment about Nightwing and Batman) You can blame the writers but even if they didnt draw the comparison the fans sure would.

Having the big three extend an invite and Nightwing rejecting it does more for his character development then simply dumping him in the JLA. There are lots of members in the JLA who dont even have their own solo title, so clearly it isnt the launching pad its made out to be. Nightwings done some temp for em, he's fought alongside em, he's already an established character, an A-List character. Wonder Woman is on the JLA, how many movies she been in? (not animated either). Dick Graysons been in like 3 (his latest appearance has fans yelling for a solo movie). Nightwing doesnt need the JLA to show the World he's arrived or to market his character, he's already marketed which is why the idea that the DCU is holding him back simply because he is not a member of the JLA is somewhat laughable.

Its like saying, "I'm Dick Grayson and I dont wanna be Batman there for I'm not going to follow the exact same path." And if he just upped and joined the JLA thats exactly what he would be doing. If Nightwing being on the JLA isnt simply replacing Batman, then why would Batman even need to be gone? See what I'm saying? Red Tornado and Batman are on the League, two drastically different characters, so theres no identity clash. If Nightwings independence woundnt be devalued by him joining, Batman being on the team shouldnt matter then right?

But we're going to have to agree to disagree (which is fine, I like exchanging different points of view) and maybe you're right. Maybe Nightwing joining the JLA would be one of the baddest transitions in comics. I'm just having a hard time seeing how, when the DCU already seems to be doing a marvelous job of marketing his character. They even expanded his abilities in the new series to being able to read people's emotions and body language (cassndra cain anyone :p). I think the New 52 is pretty sold on upping Nightwing's profile, and I think they can safely do it without placing him in the JLA.

Oh i'm not denying that in universe its always been acknowledged (Pre-Flashpoint at least) that Dick was a big shot. I completely agree with that. My problem is that it doesn't translate over to all works he appears in like it does with say Green Lantern or Wonder Woman. And i'd say that's a circular argument, because one can again then just apply that to any situation Nightwing is in. That he's just being Batman-Lite. That in his comic right now he's just being Batman-Lite and that it'd be better if Batman was there. That's not creating unique situations. People read the story for the character. Saying that he's Batman-Lite only looks at him in terms of abilities and nothing more. And that's exactly the problem (I don't know any Nightwing fan that would describe Dick as Batman-Lite, unless again they were simply talking abilities and even then they'd note the differences in the two character's styles.) many only see Dick as Batman-Lite. Again, its a circular argument, because I can just as easily say that not having him on the JLA isn't going to change that view of him. Being on the JLA, being put in situations, dealing with said situations, working alongside the best, again it all puts the character at a certain level and lets fans and haters know the character is at a certain level. And of course you can have him interact with certain characters outside of the JLA. Doing it with the JLA is simply easier and more effective.

Again, i'm not saying that isn't awesome, but doing that isn't the same as joining the team. And the problem is that with the New 52 we don't exactly know what Nightwing has actually done. I don't think he was ever a part of the JLA in this new universe. And they could further market the character by having him on the JLA, like they do every other character. Again, circular argument, because you could say that if a character has been marketed in certain mediums they might as well not appear in the JLA either. Do it with enough characters and the team loses all sense of importance or impact. There are many reasons people believe Dick is being held back, him not being on the JLA is one of them, and in general the result of the New 52.

Again, might as well say he shouldn't be a superhero at all if he doesn't wanna follow the same path. Might as well say he should specifically avoid anything Bruce has ever been involved with or laid his hands on. Batman needs to be gone (This is a purely personal reason) for the exact reason you've stated. Too many people see Nightwing as Batman-Lite (And to be honest I don't think there's anything that can ever be done about that opinion, because it is inevitable that a former sidekick will be compared to the hero, like its inevitable a son will be compared to his father. That won't ever change) and as I said I personally don't trust in any writer to have Dick and Bruce on the same team and not have Dick be there to make Bruce look better, or end up having the two compete with each other. I just have an incredibly strong feeling that that's where it would end up.To be clear Batman being on the team has nothing to do with Nightwing's independence. It doesn't even have to do with either of the character's (In the sense that they're their own "people") It has to do with the way the two character's would be written.

Indeed we shall, and who knows given time I may come to change my opinion. The New 52 really hasn't been going on for that long, at least not in comic book time, and where we are now is completely different from where we were at the start. In another year or two we could again be in a completely different place. Dick may end up with his own tv series or in another comic along with his current one. Only time will tell.

@Munsu I like the idea, though as you said it shouldn't be as violent. Dick and Roy are both characters that shouldn't be involved with teams like that. Though I suppose Roy's now something of a lost cause.

I agree with what both @Gambler and @Nathaniel_Christopher have been saying.

For me if Dick is gonna be on the JLA it has to be at the expense of Bruce, yeah Dick isn't the calculating, ever-prepared control freak that Bruce is, but readers who don't really know the character (lets say someone who sticks to Superman, Green Lantern comics and reads JLA to see more of their favourite character) will still see Dick as being a carbon copy of Bruce. I really don't think Dick being on the JLA would do anything good for the character unless he's there as Bruce's replacement, and if anything I think JLA membership is little more than an official statement that a character is 'in the big leagues' as it were. Dick (and others) doesn't have to be in the JLA to be held in the same regard as the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman etc, its down to how he's written and the sort of villains he's allowed to tackle. As I've said before now, the pre-Flashpoint Nightwing run would show Nightwing struggling against guys who'd be dealt with in a couple of panels in a Batman title. The only really major villain who'd also give Bruce trouble, Deathstroke, was repeatedly shown as getting the better of Dick and it felt like DC was doing so purposely just to prove that Dick would never reach the same level as Bruce.

@Gambler said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Only time will tell.

That it will. I'm almost willing to bet we get a Nighwting live action movie before we get a Wonder Woman one.

I agree with that, though Wonder Woman is really just a character who suffers from a lack of direction and some truly awful writing. I don't even know the last time I read a good Wonder Woman story.