Circus Girl or Intelligent non-paralyzed Redhead?

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Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

So, if there's one thing that people either love or hate about the DCnU and the new 52, is the fact that they have reboot and erased a bunch of history between characters and whatnot. Personally, I think that the characters which DC decided were good to erase history, were for the most part good decisions. With the exception of the beautiful Teen Titans I think that they were all decisions that were made and executed solidly and while I still have my doubts about the manner with which Clark Kent, the clumsy reporter acts around Louise Lane, or the way in which the original Teen Titans may not have ever been together, I think that there is quite a lot of good that was done.

The best thing decision regarding continuity that DC Comics have made, was as a matter of fact, the decision to NOT erase the continuity in the Bat-Family. They did not need it. The result is that the deep relationships that exist between some characters and the others. There is still a new layer in the stories that we are presented with, but they still have all of the continuity intact.

This blog is about whether I want the character of Dick Grayson to move on to the new character which has been presented to us, Raya the Circus girl who has a past history with Dick, or whether I'd like him to go back and spend time with the current and Original Batgirl, Barbara Gordon. I think that both of them are amzing characters and have possible chemistry in their own rights and after reading Nightwing #3 I was rooting for Raya, not really caring for Barbara. After reading Batgirl however, I had completely switched my opinion around wanting Dick to resume his relationship with Barbara.

As of now, I believe that Barbara is the best decision for Dick to go with, for two simple reasons. First of all, the more obvious one is that I have always supported their relationship and they have always shown chemistry with each other in all of Comics history, the second one is that Batgirl #3 was an absoulute masterpiece and Simone has absolutely stupefied me with the quality and the deepness of the the characters. That recurring theme of both the characters interacting with each other in only ways that each of them could left we with my mouth open, especially with how the idea turned around into something that I wasn't expecting.

Raya does indeed have the advantage of having a more "personal" relationship with Grayson, having been there when he went through the worst moments in his life and knowing Grayson before all of the changes in his life, which allows her to gain some points with intimacy.

#1 Posted by LeaderVladimir (150 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, I'm a Dick/Barbara fan, but I admit Raya is a good character. Let's not be too quick to judge and give her a chance.

#2 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@LeaderVladimir said:

Okay, I'm a Dick/Barbara fan, but I admit Raya is a good character. Let's not be too quick to judge and give her a chance.

Yeah, I think the same.

#3 Posted by DEGRAAF (7918 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I am have been a fan of Dick/Barbara and Dick/Kory and i am liking Raya now too. I have awlays pushed more for Dick and Barbara.

But as you stated Raya was there through Dick's worst moments in life but Dick was there during Barabra's worst moments as well.

#4 Posted by richardjohngrayson (445 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt he will end up with either. I would like it to be Babs tho.

#5 Posted by Mercy_ (91888 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Raya. Both as a character and a possible interest. But my heart lies with Dick/Barbara. Always has and always will. In addition to that, they had excellent chemistry in Batgirl #3. I look forward to (hopefully) seeing that relationship build.

Moderator
#6 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress said:

I like Raya. Both as a character and a possible interest. But my heart lies with Dick/Barbara. Always has and always will. In addition to that, they had excellent chemistry in Batgirl #3. I look forward to (hopefully) seeing that relationship build.

Yeah, I look forward to seeing that build too. You take the words right out of my mouth, they had such excellent chemistry in that issue indeed.

@richardjohngrayson: Yeah... DC tends to do that >__>

#7 Posted by Kairan1979 (16926 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope circus girl is going to die or turn to be evil from the start.

#8 Posted by The_Tree (7991 posts) - - Show Bio

None of the above.

#9 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree said:

None of the above.

Your choice then?

#10 Posted by The_Tree (7991 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@The_Tree said:

None of the above.

Your choice then?

Nobody. I've never really liked any of the girls Dick has been with. Raya included.

#11 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree: Unfollows.

Really? Why, Barbara is such a great character. I can see why people dislike Starfire or Raya, but Babs?

#12 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia.

#13 Edited by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

you forgot to talk about one red head you know, the one from space

#14 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

Talia.

Nah, that's Jason's girl.

@BlackArmor said:

you forgot to talk about one red hed you know, the one from space

Nope. I've already talked about her previously. I prefer babs over her, plus nothing gon' happen between them for a while.

#15 Posted by The_Tree (7991 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I liked Barbara when she was Oracle, but now she feels like Stephanie Brown with red hair.

#16 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree said:

@ReVamp: I liked Barbara when she was Oracle, but now she feels like Stephanie Brown with red hair.

Nah, she feels like herself.

#17 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio

I never got the Dick/Barbara romance, maybe its how her side was written though. 
 
Based on Red Hood and the Outlaws it seems like the original Teen Titans did exist, though not sure where Donna Troy fits into that

#18 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

I never got the Dick/Barbara romance, maybe its how her side was written though. Based on Red Hood and the Outlaws it seems like the original Teen Titans did exist, though not sure where Donna Troy fits into that

About the titans, there have been various different sources that state different things, which is incredibly irritating since one can never get an accurate version. They say that they probably have, but it might be altered so that it was only Robin, Starfire, Beast Boy, Cyborg and Raven, which is my fear. I'm not sure Speedy will be included to his change in age, I'm not sure Donna and Wally will be included for obvious reasons and I'm not sure anyone remembers Tempest outside comics, let alone inside.

I think that the Dick/Barbara romance is probably my favorite out of all of them, even though it did end up becoming incredibly stale towards the end, with Barbara in the wheel chair and whatnot.

#19 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: It is was just too artificial at points for me 
 
Whats a tempest?  You mean like the play by Shakespeare?
#20 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: It is was just too artificial at points for me Whats a tempest? You mean like the play by Shakespeare?

Yes, it did suffer from that, it was better in flashbacks >__>.

Yes, exactly that. Its a beautiful story, especially when the Duke of Milan attempts to restore the rightful place of his Daughter. Ah... Reminisces

#21 Posted by Dernman (15814 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Dick and Barbara thing was great for when they were young and as they got older they didn't fit. 
Now that they are both younger again and a lot of Batgirl has been rebooted I'll have to wait and see.

#22 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman said:

I think the Dick and Barbara thing was great for when they were young and as they got older they didn't fit. Now that they are both younger again and a lot of Batgirl has been rebooted I'll have to wait and see.

I agree that they were better when they were younger, but they're not better now because they're younger again, they're still older, the reason that they work now is because the character of Barbara has been redefined.

#23 Posted by Dernman (15814 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@Dernman said:

I think the Dick and Barbara thing was great for when they were young and as they got older they didn't fit. Now that they are both younger again and a lot of Batgirl has been rebooted I'll have to wait and see.

I agree that they were better when they were younger, but they're not better now because they're younger again, they're still older, the reason that they work now is because the character of Barbara has been redefined.

Well ya that what I meant. As Oracle I just couldn't see him with her. 
 
Sigh I'm never going to get over this. I want Oracle back. :(
#24 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: A pox'o your throat, you bawling blasphemous incharitable dog!
#25 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman said:

@ReVamp said:

@Dernman said:

I think the Dick and Barbara thing was great for when they were young and as they got older they didn't fit. Now that they are both younger again and a lot of Batgirl has been rebooted I'll have to wait and see.

I agree that they were better when they were younger, but they're not better now because they're younger again, they're still older, the reason that they work now is because the character of Barbara has been redefined.

Well ya that what I meant. As Oracle I just couldn't see him with her. Sigh I'm never going to get over this. I want Oracle back. :(

Eh, I'm liking this a lot. I think that many great things may come from this.

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: A pox'o your throat, you bawling blasphemous incharitable dog!

Looks away innocently.

#26 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:


@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: A pox'o your throat, you bawling blasphemous incharitable dog!

Looks away innocently.

Remember I have done thee worthy service, told thee no lies, made no mistakes, served without grudge or grumblins
#27 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: A pox'o your throat, you bawling blasphemous incharitable dog!

Looks away innocently.

Remember I have done thee worthy service, told thee no lies, made no mistakes, served without grudge or grumblins

<-------------------------- Is in over his head.

#28 Edited by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: All right, not Tempest "quote-off" for me today.  I was just copying them off of google.  I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Shakespeare (yet)
#29 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: All right, not Tempest "quote-off" for me today. I was just copying them off of google. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Shakespeare (yet)

Aight. I'll just go listen to my hip-hop music. Have a better chance with that lol >:P

#30 Posted by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

Power Girl. Barbara was forced onto us by DC/retcons, Starfire WAS good but Dick wound up outgrowing that relationship(They were like HS sweethearts). Lobdell also ruined her so yeah. Dunno about Raya yet but I don't think it will last.

#31 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Power Girl. Barbara was forced onto us by DC/retcons, Starfire WAS good but Dick wound up outgrowing that relationship(They were like HS sweethearts). Lobdell also ruined her so yeah. Dunno about Raya yet but I don't think it will last.

Barbara didn't feel too forced though and it was always hinted at so I disagree with the first part. I also don't think that Raya will last in any sort of manner, but I think that its interesting nonetheless. I also liked the idea of Power Girl back in pre-Flashpoint, so yeah, I don't see why not.

#32 Posted by taterpie (2 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea of Power Girl, but Karen Starr is now a sideline, girlfriend, empty shell character over in Mr Terrific, unfortunately. I never liked Dick with Babs, and his time with Starfire is done and dusted.

It was way too early in the reset to give Dick a girlfriend, I feel like Higgins totally blew it there. Also, he seems to be recasting Nightwing to be Spider-man, right down to the MJ girlfriend. It's bumming me out and making the book, instead of one of my favorites, one I debate buying. Harping on the whole 'hurrr, he does redheads' thing makes the character look quite callow. It's a drag to see a character who had come so far, slide so far back. It's always been annoying to see writers using girlfriends as Dick's moral compass -they tell him when he's a good guy or making mistakes/letting people down, instead of letting Dick figure things out on his own. Crutch.

So yeah. No Raya, NOR Babs. Make me thrilled about the newly young Dick and everything about HIM first, *then* tie him down to a boring relationship with another (groan, rolleyes) redhead.

#33 Posted by Dernman (15814 posts) - - Show Bio
@taterpie: I have a theory that Mr Terrific is going to open the portal to Earth two and she will get her powers there. I hope she isn't Kryptonian.
#34 Posted by BecauseISaidSo (112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Wait why did you say that Tailia is now Jason's girl??? Did they hook up or something???

#35 Posted by BecauseISaidSo (112 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know. Babs is out of Dick's league I mean she is so much better than him even though I like Grayson but I prefer it if Babara would be with someone who will treat her right. Raya will be a fling like Bruce and Vicki. Kyle Higgins did say that Dick Grayson will find other love interests, meaning Raya is not the only girl we will be seeing that has their eyes set on him.

#36 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@BecauseISaidSo said:

@ReVamp: Wait why did you say that Tailia is now Jason's girl??? Did they hook up or something???

Pre-Flashpoint Talia and Jason hooked up after she had Resurrected him. Bear in mind that he was an adult at this point. But, still, people tend to call bullsh*t on the whole series it took place and tend to disregard it.@BecauseISaidSo said:

I don't know. Babs is out of Dick's league I mean she is so much better than him even though I like Grayson but I prefer it if Babara would be with someone who will treat her right. Raya will be a fling like Bruce and Vicki. Kyle Higgins did say that Dick Grayson will find other love interests, meaning Raya is not the only girl we will be seeing that has their eyes set on him.

Barbara isn't out of his league in anything really. Raya will be a fling you're right. But I highly diagree about Dick treating her wrong, Dick is no Ollie. He might be a manwhore, but when he's with a girl he treats them right. If you even note, in the relationship he had with Babs around the time of infinite crisis, they nearly married, with her being the one that denied him because she realized it would be better for him.

#37 Posted by BecauseISaidSo (112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I did not read the flashpoint so I had no idea that that actually happened, I always thought that maybe they could have a relationship since well Jason could be the head of Al Ghul family with all the hate in him. And I didn't mean that Grayson didn't treat her right but more like a guy who would be there for her no matter what. And yes I am familiar with the Nightwing Annual 2 issue but I refer not to think of it because of the different history; Robin quit Batman not Batman fired Robin, and I didn't like how they portrayed Starfire in that issue it was rather a low blow below the belt. It looked like Dixon just wrote that story because he was a fan of the Robin/Nightwing that was in the Batman series and not from the Teen Titans series. And if you read the Batgirl #3 issue, Babs just said that I don't need you to worry about me while cutting off a piece of hair telling him to let her go. She still loves him but doesn't want to be with him if he thinks she's fragile glass. Babs is strong and I want her to find someone who doesn't view her as what she was but more as what she is and can do now.

#38 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@BecauseISaidSo said:

I did not read the flashpoint so I had no idea that that actually happened,

This actually happened before Flashpoint in Red Hood: Lost Days.

I always thought that maybe they could have a relationship since well Jason could be the head of Al Ghul family with all the hate in him.

Nah, it doesn't make much sense since Talia loves Batman. Its also measured considerably in the series, which is why even the writers knew that it couldn't work. That's why it was just a fling, one night stand kind of thing.

And I didn't mean that Grayson didn't treat her right but more like a guy who would be there for her no matter what.

He would be there, if you'd have read their interactions in Nightwing V2, then you'd know. (Not trying to be condescending, just reasoning that I believe that this was well established in the series). Part of the reason that they never got back together is because the authors thought that there was no flame in the relationship and that it wouldn't attract readers.

And yes I am familiar with the Nightwing Annual 2 issue but I refer not to think of it because of the different history; Robin quit Batman not Batman fired Robin,

Actually, Batman fired Robin and even forced him to leave the new Robin suit in the Batcave. He did this because of his interaction with the Teen Titans. Even if he were to quit it would have been because of Batman and the fact that he was unsupportable.

and I didn't like how they portrayed Starfire in that issue it was rather a low blow below the belt.

I don't think that they portrayed here like anything bad, I just think that they portrayed her as an Alien that didn't realize what was going on. The person who they didn't portray all that well in the flashback was Barbara, who seemed to be "blaming" Starfire in some sort of manner for what happened.

It looked like Dixon just wrote that story because he was a fan of the Robin/Nightwing that was in the Batman series and not from the Teen Titans series. And if you read the Batgirl #3 issue, Babs just said that I don't need you to worry about me while cutting off a piece of hair telling him to let her go.

Not sure your point here. But it is true that the essence of Bat characters that are not Batman are diluted severely in team books.

She still loves him but doesn't want to be with him if he thinks she's fragile glass. Babs is strong and I want her to find someone who doesn't view her as what she was but more as what she is and can do now.

We know that she's strong, but Dick loves her and is trying to see if she's okay and if she's coping with her new situation correctly. Especially since she might go back to a wheelchair if the strain she puts on her leg is too much.

#39 Posted by BecauseISaidSo (112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Umm ok.

#40 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (299 posts) - - Show Bio

What's with Grayson and redheads? I like this...because redheads are my favorite as well. Never been much of a fan of Barbra though. Cassandra's my favorite Batgirl. But I AM a fan of Grayson/Barbra.

Same as Jason/Cassandra.

#41 Posted by The Poet (8170 posts) - - Show Bio

why do we have to choose? :P

Moderator
#42 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio

having just read the first three issues of Nightwing, I am going to have to go with Raya here.  Its like the story that Dick's relationship with Barbara always should have been.

#43 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Poet said:

why do we have to choose? :P

Touché. I think my friend you've just /thread.

@RazzaTazz said:

having just read the first three issues of Nightwing, I am going to have to go with Raya here. Its like the story that Dick's relationship with Barbara always should have been.

I agree, that's something I felt too, but the problem is that Batgirl #3 was just too good.

#44 Posted by theik2 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

Originally I think Batgirl was closer to Batman's age. A Dick/Babs romance makes sense.

#45 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@theik2 said:

Originally I think Batgirl was closer to Batman's age. A Dick/Babs romance makes sense.

Yeah, she was pre-crisis. They changed that because of the Dick/Babs romance.

#46 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: Don't tell me I have to add Batgirl to me reading list as well...
#47 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@ReVamp: Don't tell me I have to add Batgirl to me reading list as well...

ZOMG! You're not reading it? Do yourself a favor and at least read issue 3, even if you don't read anything else. That issue was stellar.

#48 Posted by RazzaTazz (8968 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: If you say, I will add it to the queue
#49 Posted by jrock85 (2850 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm on the fence.

#50 Posted by ReVamp (22798 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

I'm on the fence.

Not the only one my friend.

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