About time somebody stepped up for Grayson, he deserves to b in the Top Batch :D

Pre-52 Dick Grayson was equeal to Bruce in every seance and even surpassed in in tearms of being a hero because he trusted people. sure you can say Bruce trust people like Clark and Diana but I think that only goes to a point.Dick trusted all his teammates and family.

i like nightwng more than bats and i like the current team. i love eddy barrows art i wish he didnt changed, the only thing id changed is the stupid crossover issues, batman doesnt deserve the othe books he already has 4.

I have felt he was for some time. He is maybe one of the most widly connected and looked up to of just about any of the other DC heroes. You are right about the art tho...

No. Nightwing should be at the top of Tier 2.

The whole Nightwing beating Batman thing is really really tricky, and I don't think a fight between them would be very smart, especially if Geoff Johns ends up writting the character like you said, being that the only way he knows to make a character relevant is by "owning" another (because, y'know, he handled the whole Hal vs Bats rivalry in such a masterful manner). I think that the best way to go would be having Dick take a position that currently belongs to Batman, like making him the guardian of Gotham or, even better, make him a Justice League member, with the other heroes underestimating the character and him proving to be an even better member than Batman (thing that I think would make sense, I've always seen Dick as a better team member than Batman). That's atleast how I see it, the whole another character being better than another just because he's beaten him is such a childish and immature thing.

Another thing that needs to be done is reintroduce the character to the movies, hopefully we'll see him grow in the next Batman movies, maybe to the point of getting Teen Titans and Nightwing movies.

I couldn't agree more. I have always loved this Character. I like Robin in general, but Dick Grayson is one of my favorite characters ever. I wish someup an coming film makers with a great unknown writer could make a live action movie. Something that wouldn't be too "Hollywood" and over the top. That really focuses on the character, like when he first goes off as Nightwing and develops his skills to peak levels for a couple years. Which could lead into movies of him along side other DC characters in future big budget movies. Just my thoughts.

Considering he's the only member of the bat family without a cape and can't glide they should really bring back the underarm wings. Would make him cooler to me.

Invincible men only exist in the movies. Dick will be the one to solve the Batman blueprint. If we're to believe what Scott Snyder stated in an interview not all that long ago, Dick is the one person capable enough of tasking himself with the responsibility of taking Batman down should the need arise. Not Gordon. Not even Superman. Night friggin wing.

Agree on all accounts. Also needs a strong rogues gallery. Make Tarantula his Poison Ivy, with Blockbuster his Bane. Slade/Deathstroke should be his Joker.

Nice comment, bub.

I honestly would love to see him on the level of Batman. Will that happen? I HIGHLY doubt it. Can I still hope? You bet (;

I'm actually all for it.... Lets not make him beat batman all the time though

Replace Batman in the Justice League? Yes

Beat batman? No

I agree with everything else.

Make a coming-of-age movie for Robin turning into Nightwing. Kind of like teenage Batman. Really, the Batman Beyond show is just a ripoff of what Dick did when he got older: Became his own version of Batman that relied on Bruce to supply his toys.

1 great movie can turn a B or C list character into A-list. Worked for Hellboy, Iron Man, Thor. Hell, even D-lister Blade is now common knowledge. More people today know who Maria Hill is than Power Girl. Think about that.

Nope, Nightwing was estranged from Bruce when he got older.

"When... he... got... older." It completely defeats the purpose of a coming-of-age story if you pick everything up when he's 'older.'

Few thoughts

- The number one thing on your list absolutely must happen for Dick to progress into tier 1. He needs an A-list team. Higgins is good, but Johns would be a better fit.

-I think Dick Grayson/Nightwing could be a household name. An animated series would be great for Dick's character progression. He has the fan base and he's Batman related. That right there alone is enough to merit good ratings...I think.

-As far as elevating him to Batman's level, I think he needs to have a yearning to not want to be Batman's "equal". I think he needs to have an attitude/drive to be better than the Bat. Maybe something happens and he becomes sick of being known as "the first boy blunder" or " the adult Robin". Villains DO NOT revere him like villains do Batman. Maybe this should be explored more. Kinda like how Johns is doing with new52 Aquaman. Criminals do not make fun of Nightwing, like they do Aquaman, but they don't fear, revere, and/or respect him as much as they do Batman. So Nightwing begins to re-approach how he's been doing things. Starts to operate differently.

-Because as of right now, Nightwing just seems like a sidekick with his own solo series. In his new52 series (I haven't read much about pre-new52 Nightwing) he is not written as intelligent as Bruce. He's the "G-d Damn" Batman's number one protege. Batman is the greatest detective in all of comics. Wouldn't he have picked up a thing or two from Batman? His detective prowess needs to be explored more and utilized.

-Up his rouges gallery!! Like I said, I'm not as familiar with Dick's pre-new52 history, but does Nightwing even have a consistent archenemy??

@blkson: Pre-52 Dick had a rivalry with Deathstroke bit kind of died down from what it use to be

Was that his rivalry or was that the Titan's rivalry? Either way, the guy really needs some rouges man. All those years running with the bat and he hasn't made some serious enemies?

@blkson: A bit of both really. Their rivalry was big back in the Titan days but kind of died down in the 90s right up to the reboot but it was their.

The New Batman Adventures & the early Nightwing comics (Around the Crisis era) capitalized on this. They gave Nightwing superior technology to Caps (such as not using a cape) and they made him learn how to fly from the Flying Monks, something Bats never did.

Deathstroke should be his consistent enemy, along with the Royal Flush Gang.

@jnr6lil: What specifically are you saying that they capitalized on? The part about him not wanting to be in Bruce's image and wanting to be better than Batman or the part about exploring his detective prowess and writing him more intelligently?

Also, is that it as for as his rogues go? The Royal Flush Gang? He needs a serious rouge gallery update.

Great post! I would like to see Bruce begin to focus more on global events and problems (sort of what he does with Batman Inc) and Nightwing graduate to the top guardian of Gotham.

Real way to do it is actually pretty easy. Make one great movie.

Royal Flush Gang could be used right. Deathstroke should first and foremost be his archenemy. The Teen Titans cartoon capitalized on this. (Despite them making Robin a Batman ripoff).They have great chemistry.

And YJ, TNBA, & the early Nightwing comics all made him wanting to be better than Batman, and giving him things that made him better (The Aqualad mission, The ability to fly, more advanced suit)

Both. Deathstroke was first the Titan's big bad guy, and since Nightwing was the leader of the group, it made sense that a personal rivalry built up between the two. In fact, Dick was the only one Deathstroke failed to capture during the Judas Contract, which led to the latter gaining a sense of respect for him. They later tangled several times in Nightwing's solo run from 1996-2011. Dick's been fighting against him as Robin, Nightwing, and even as Batman. Not to mention the fact that Deathstroke is responsible for nuking Bludhaven... that just screams rivalry right there lol.

That's why I loved Deathstroke as a NW villain more than any other (including Blockbuster II). He was a foe who could never be beaten in a fight, so Dick just had to consistently find another way to foil his plans. He'd let DS's targets get away, pay him off, turn his daughter into a hero, etc.

@alak: Ok so he has an archenemy in Deathstroke. But, what about the rest of his rouges though? He can't become a tier 1 hero with a sub par rouge gallery. Also has Deathstroke crossed paths with Dick in the new52??

Unfortunately, his pre-52 rogues gallery has not made the transition to New 52 Nightwing's book. Deathstroke is doing his own thing to get back into the mercenary game (book cancelled). Lady Vic is slated to become a Batwing villain. Brutale became a Blue Beetle villain (book cancelled). Blockbuster II might still be dead (assuming the Bludhaven history is still intact). Stallion might still be dead (assuming IC took place at all). Soames might still be dead (same deal as Blockbuster). Shrike made his introduction in New 52, but his history with Dick was never mentioned... that, and Dick kicked him in the face and moved onto the next villain. No mention of Double Dare, although if anything, they were like his Catwomen since half their fights consist of flirting.

So yeah, his unique rogues gallery has essentially been butchered by the New 52 changes. The only villains he's really had on his own are Saiko (dead), Paragon (probably in Blackgate prison), and Prankster... who the Dick fans are busy arguing over whether or not Prankster's a male or female (and if female, will Dick sleep with her O_o).

@alak: Prankster is male, right? lol. I had no clue people were pondering that. Now I'm pondering that. Prankster is an old old Superman villain He was a he in pre52 continuity but they could've easily made him a her in new52. So far though, the entire book just feels boring to me. I love the character and always have, but this new run is dull and uninteresting. I feel like the Prankster is an attempt to give him a Joker-like foe for his rouge gallery and issue 20 was pretty good, but it's still a dry series. Hopefully things pick up in the next few issues.

pretty good idea's. #1 batman's getting old he has been beaten and battered for years, bane broke his back. it has to take a toll eventually, so beating him in hand to hand is totally doable. in fact nightwing in his prime versus batman at 40/50, nightwing should win on any count.

if they did do a batman versus nightwing I think it should be mind controlled batman, ivy has done it, any number of character's would be capable of it, maybe mitzpclk wants to play a prank whatever. make a real fight out of it like they seem to be at stalemate. then the winning shot could be done multiple ways. dick can finally pull some trick batman wasn't expecting(dick is younger and an acrobat, beating bats on stamina makes sense), or another hero teamed up with nightwing, but distracted during the actual fight shows up to shut down the mind control in whatever fashion. as the mind control wears off batman blinks, during that one second nightwing lands a final punch and knocks bats flat.

later in the batcave or rooftop dick can ask "were u conscience at all?" batman replies "i was completely aware of everything going on around but couldn't stop myself"

"were u holding back then?"

"i tried, but i really cant say how successful i was if at all"

this leaves it in a state where nightwing has proven himself, but still leaves question to whether he has equaled or surpassed batman.and batman isn't that wordy usually so u could cut his response down to just "i really couldn't say" leaving more mystery to it.

JLA thing should definitely happen. batman doesn't even like them for the most part dick is much more of a team player and people person, it doesn't even need to play like nightwing took his spot, batman could leave once again, and nightwing steps up.

i agree on the point he should become his own character not beating batman in batmans specialties but more pushing towards his own specialties. batman bases himself out of stealth, but the mythos of using the bat to scare people means people need to see him, and see the shadow fall around them to spread the fear. dick could push towards remaining invisible like a real ninja, and could turn his focus towards stealth rather than martial arts or detective work ect. and being an acrobat would work on this level. just one concept, there are many areas nightwing could surpass batman, that batman is not as highly trained in. there are only so many hours in the day, he cant be the best at everything.

teen titans show i think would be a little more difficult, titans/justice/batman all have a large character base so u can change it up tell different stories and perspectives, until nightwing gets more definitive team members he is a bit of a one trick act and we already saw that with batman TAS. teen titans was a good show, but try to do it with just robin not the rest of the titans, doesn't work so well i think. and batman without the extra characters like nightwing boosting the ranks he is still a badass, but its just not as entertaining.

sorry for this long winded exposition ;) with tons of typos im sure. FYI ive always kinda preferred tim drake. maybe just cause i related better with him when i was a kid. but huge fan of all batman affiliates.

This is an amazing point. One I'm not sure I distinguished in the original post. In any case, I completely agree.

another situation, draw batman into a fight where dick can take an advantage, make him fight 2o stories up in a construction site where nightwing can gain an edge do to circus training. play off batmans confidence he knows and everyone else knows he will win in hand to hand, so he pushes to far out, pushing his advantage till they are out in open air and dick can turn the tables. and typically batman will use his mind not his physical prowess to take down enemies who could destroy him, typically. dick can easily take advantage of batmans idea dick is still a child, and isn't a match. dick can play the part he knows batman better than anyone, he can turn bruces knowledge and intelligence against him. acting like he really is just a kid and a screw up till he has been drawn in.

Actually I think Nightwing beating Batman would be a good idea. Just because you beat Batman once doesn't mean you can do it every time. But he has the credentials to surpass Bruce in combat (and leadership skills).

This only applies to pre- New52 Grayson. New 52 Grayson shouldn't beat Bruce in combat IMO, he needs to find a different way to establish himself with the reduced resume. Hopefully this will happen in Chicago.

Great post! I definitely agree with the fact that Nightwing needs a good creative team and an animated series to really make him popular. Personally, I think to make Nightwing even more popular is to have it set up where his personalities shines in every story he shows up in. One of the main reasons why I loved Dick Grayson so much is that he is shown to be more laid back and helpful than Bruce Wayne and it really separates him from Bruce Wayne himself. If the comics just focused more on Dick Grayson being able to handle a different foe more differently than Bruce Wayne, then I think that he will become a more popular character than ever before because he wouldn't be shown as a rip off of Bruce Wayne.

PreN52 Nightwing should be able to beat Batman 2-3 out of every 10 times in a fair fight. It just makes sense. The age difference should be about 10 years and he had the fighting experience since he was a teen (around 12-14 to 25-26 in age at the end). Before writers and TPTB in DC Comics decided that Batman was a Bat-god, Batman was not as good a leader/field commander as Nightwing. It was stated in the NTT/Outsiders cross over many years ago. It wasn't until years later that Batman was turned into the best leader.

Dick could be shown as a great leader/field commander, and Batman as strategist. In JL they could really play off of each other but that was a wasted opportunity with the DC Comics leadership.

This new52 Nightwing should be able to take on Bruce and give him one heck of a fight, nearly beating Bruce, since Batman has not been around 10 years yet... so he should not be Bat-god. Nightwing should have a shot of beating him, at least a 1-10 chance.

But what would really help, besides a team book, IMO, is to have him land an A-list writer and artist for a good 24-36 issue run. When Higgins leaves the title, they should try to get someone like Waid write the character. Look at what he did with Wally West and now Daredevil. Imagine what he could do with Nightwing. Or Geoff Johns, if he still cares enough for the character... Just so many opportunities lost with a character that could really connect with people...

Yeah, The TT Series even played on this, with Dick being obsessive to take down Slade, while Slade, wanted to push Nightwing to make him his apprentice.

Nightwing SHOULD be better than Batman...in my opinion. (as a crimefighter)

Three easy steps to make Nightwing an A-lister in two story arcs or less. (Understand that because Batman is also an A-lister, this needs to establish Nightwing as Batman's equal, not his superior).

Step 1: Nightwing moves out of Gotham but maintains positive relations with Batman. Nightwing staying in Gotham will always leave him in Batman's shadow. He could beat Batman up and make him cry; it will still be forgotten within a month because in Gotham the city is "Batman's turf". Nightwing has to have his own city to establish himself as something independant of Bruce. At the same time, any amount of severed ties with Batman will see Nightwing leaving with more of the impression that "Batman's good enough to cover this without me; I'll go to a city with fewer psychos." So the two have to remain on good terms and thoroughly connected, with Nightwing going to City Two by Batman's request.

When Batman asks Nightwing to go elsewhere on assignment, the underlying message is one of confidence. There is a job important enough to Batman that it needs to be taken seriously, but geographical limitations prevent Batman from doing it himself while still watching over Gotham. Having Batman leave Gotham in the hands of Grayson will always have that certain scent of "babysitting", but sending Grayson away on an important job is more the thing you do with a partner rather than your subordinate. Then, even after the job is done, leave him there because he realizes he's "needed".

Step 2: Nightwing needs to actively show up a differant member of the Justice League other than Batman. He cannot be entirely defined only in terms of Batman, or else he will only be seen as "Batman's _____." Pick a differant A-list hero and have Nightwing start stepping on some toes. My recommendation? Superman.

Lex Luthor makes some sort of financial play for WayneTech. Batman needs to investigate it and watch more closely, a job which will take someone away from Gotham and place them in Metropolis for an extended amount of time. Batman asks Nightwing to go get to the bottom of it. Nightwing then becomes the Dark Defender of Metropolis, his style of crimefighting dramatically contrasting Superman's. While Superman hovers in the sky listening for sounds of distress, waiting for the villain to make his move before Superman swoops in to react, Nightwing can detective his way two steps ahead of the villain to catch them BEFORE they make their move. Let Nightwing start shutting down villains on Superman's turf before even Superman can do it and the friction will build. Superman can claim it's because they don't stop villains unless they've already done something wrong, but it's always going to seem like he's just a sore sport, and Nightwing can handle being a step or two ahead of Supes in the planning department. When the big guns show up just in time to find them dangling from a lamppost, especially with Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen getting the scoop on "Faster than a speeding bullet, but still second place", we'll get that excellant Superman/Batman dynamic, but having it be with Nightwing will entirely validate him as his own man. And this defines Nightwing in a way that does not have to be measure in units of Batman-ness.

Step 3: Nightwing needs to face establish A-lister villains. I'm sorry, but the Royal Flush Gang is not A-list villains. It can't be anybody that's second string. And it cannot be a New villain, because when they are presented opposite Nightwing, they will get measured to him, rather than him getting raised to their level. Established A-listers, and in Metropolis. My personal villain of choice (aside from the ongoing cat-and-mouse with Luthor) would be Metallo. Start with him. Have Metallo lay down a heavy beating on Superman, courtesy of the Kryptonite heart, only to see Nightwing fighting the huge killer robot but fairing better than his Kryptonian accomplice because he himself is not weakened by Metallo's defining trait. A huge, decisive win, but still believeably so. Follow that with a win over Parasite. Then a win over Brainiac, where you reveal Luthor's grand plan was to purchase a unique division of WayneTech that was actually researching ways to artificially create a higher quality of Kryptonite. Then bring in the big gun where Deathstroke gets hired on by Luthor to take out Nightwing for mettling too much, and Deathstroke is able to seriously injure Superman courtesy of a Kryptonite Knife. By the end of the second arc, when Nightwing is downing Deathstroke and saving Superman's life, all of Metropolis, and all of the readers, are going to see that Metropolis needs Nightwing the way Gotham needs Batman.

Yes, this is done at the expense of Superman, but honestly look at the sales. Batman comics dominate the DC market for units moved every single month. Superman rarely even breaks the top 25 for the past 2 years, even despite the upcoming film. And Nightwing consistantly sells better than Superman. By connecting those two dots, even with Superman getting shown up a bit, it will bring Superman MORE readers rather than less. It's widely known that attaching a title to the Gotham setting is guarunteed sales in DC; linking Superman more long term to Nightwing is going to play into those same readers and see some of the Batman spill-over start to pick up the issues of the big blue boy scout.

That's how you market Nightwing.

absolutely love the idea of nightwing showing up superman.

When I think more about it, pre-52 Nightwing already had all of the makings of an A-lister. He led a really popular team. He has connections to every superhero in DC which led to many awesome cameos in his solo run. He's practically considered as family to Superman. He was family to Batman. In fact, Dick was Batman for a few years and handled Damian far better than Bruce ever did. Like Batman, Nightwing has had a street level rogue gallery. Unlike Batman, his main nemesis was a meta-human who could not be physically beaten. The old Nightwing run had all the elements needed for good entertainment: action, comedy, romance, tragedy, mystery, all-star cameos, etc. New 52 Nightwing really needs to get on that level.

However, that's just making him an A-lister in the eyes of comic book readers. If you want Nightwing to become a household name, you need to make him mainstream. Give him a solo cartoon show. Make a live-action movie featuring either him or the teen titans as a whole. Put him in a video game where he participates in the story (or is the protagonist). Make more Nightwing action figures. Pretty much expose him to the public eye.

Only way to make it happen is through media exposure outside of comics.

@sharkbite: Except you basically still have him in a sidekick role.

Moving to the Dick Grayson forum.

@sharkbite: Actually not a fan of boosting popularity through showing up other characters. With Dick and Bruce I think it's more natural because they already have a father-son / teacher-student relationship. Dick besting Bruce is merely a demonstration that Bruce succeeded as a teacher. Beating Supes isn't going to help Supes, and let's face it, that man has his own image problems. Though I wouldn't put it past Johns to do something like that. It seems to be a tactic he uses frequently to elevate his characters.

Great post! I've been waiting for Nightwing series ever since he appeared on Batman TAS. I agree with everything (especially solo animated series/Batman reboot) but I don't agree with him beating Batman. He's not supposed to be better than Batman, but the fact that he's really different makes him already awesome. The problem isn't changing Nightwing as a character, the problem is getting him the attention and proper media.

How about a DC Animated Universe movie (like the Judas Contract adaptation that was cancelled)

Was just thinking about this the other day after seeing the new Flashpoint movie. It's long since time the Titans at least got one, and Dick especially could use one. The Judas Contract would've been great, the entire business with Trigon even better.

@reignmaker: amazing ideas man nightwings my favorite hero

Love the idea of johns & manapul writing nightwing