3 ways to make Dick Grayson a tier 1 superhero

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#1 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

Apologies if this thread has been done before, but it boggles my mind that Dick Grayson hasn't reached greater heights as a marketable entity within the DC Universe. I'm not going to dwell on past accomplishments or the treatment of his character. I think most of us are familiar with that. The boy is legit. So what is it going to take to get him to "heavy-hitter" status? His book is already a top-50 seller. Can he get any higher? I think the answer is yes. And this is how you do it, DC...

1. Put some all-star talent on the Nightwing book

Nothing against the current creatives on the series right now, but if you want to generate some serious buzz you need to draw a big name. DC has this awful habit of making its B-list books a proving ground for aspiring creatives. If any success happens, DC will frequently snatch the creative team up and put them on a Batman or Superman book. It has been following this formula for years, and it's one of the reasons in my mind why DC really only has 4 heavy-hitter characters (Batman, Supes, Green Lantern, and Flash - I don't count WW 'cause her book was never doing that well until the 52).

The ideal writer for Nightwing is Geoff Johns. As disrespectful as Johns has been towards Bruce in his writing, I think the man understands Dick and how he operates. Johns loves this character and was vehemently opposed to killing him off in Infinite Crisis. While Johns has his hands full with Justice League and the upcoming Trinity War story, he's got to finish sometime. And this will probably happen in another year. He's done a good job revitalizing Aquaman and Green Lantern. Give him the reigns to Dick and let him run with it.

DC has several great artists on the payroll right now - and they've all been on Batman-Superman books: Jim Lee (Batman, Superman, Man of Steel), Tony Daniel (Detective Comics, Action Comics), Kenneth Rocafort (Superman), David Finch (Batman: The Dark Knight), and Jason Fabok (Detective Comics). Truthfully, my ideal artist isn't even one of these guys. But I mention them just to point out how two characters have had an absolute monopoly on the artistic talent lately. In my dream world, I think the perfect artist would be Francis Manapul (Flash). Johns and Manapul have worked with each other before. I think another collaboration would be perfect for Nightwing.

2. Make Nightwing Batman's equal (for real)

A lot of lip service has been given to this idea in the past, but the truth of the matter is to really do this effectively will take a massive amount of balls. And as a fan of Bruce Wayne, I know just how outrageous this would be to some people. Here's what you have to remember though: making Nightwing stronger doesn't necessarily diminish Batman. In fact, it enhances Bruce. Anyway you slice it, Dick is a product of Bruce. The greater Dick becomes, the more effective Bruce is as a mentor and teacher. Dick will never be the world's greatest detective, but he's already the world's greatest acrobat. It's time to make him the world's most dangerous combatant. He's got the speed and grace to absolutely destroy people.

Here's three ways in my mind you make Dick Batman's equal...

A) Give him A-list villains to fight for a couple years - You're not going to build credibility by just creating someone new for Nightwing. We need to see how Nightwing handles Luthor, Bane, Brainiac, Deathstroke, etc. He needs at least 24 issues straight of doing nothing but handling the biggest badasses that the DC Universe has to offer. What is most important here is making these matchups feel authentic. And that's why it's so critical that an all-star talent does the handling.

B) Make him a regular on the Justice League - Batman has four books of his own already. Let him focus on Gotham and allow Dick to take over the Justice League. This has already been done to a certain extent, but it needs to be done again for a longer period. While he's on the book, Nightwing needs to feel like Bat-God 2.0 from the Morrison era. Ok, maybe that's pushing it, but you get the idea.

C) Dick needs to flat-out beat Batman - Many fan boys will never be able to accept this, but it needs to happen. Make this another bat family event. The culmination of the story should feature a hand-to-hand fight between Bruce and Dick. Master versus mentor type of thing. I don't write the stories, but it needs to be demonstrated that Dick has graduated to the big leagues. I love Bruce Wayne, but we all know that he can be a self-centered bastard sometimes. Allow Dick to beat him senseless. After that, he needs to distance himself from the Batman books and truly become his own hero.

3. Nightwing: The Movie / Nightwing: The Animated Series

We know the Batman movie reboot is coming. DC needs to inform WB that Robin should be an integral component to this. At this point in time, I would argue that Dick Grayson is even more recognizable to the general public than a Flash or Green Lantern. The worth of his intellectual property is among the highest in the DC Universe. Carefully build his character and set him free when the time is right.

In the short term, why not give him an animated series? People would watch it. People would love it. If Young Justice can succeed, there is no reason a Nightwing animated series can't do the same. Batman: TAS probably has more to do with the explosion of Batman's popularity than anything else. Viewers of that show are now paying to see his movies and read his comic books. Give Nightwing a similar chance to shine.

Final thoughts

Dick Grayson will never surpass Batman as a character. We know this. Even though he's also an orphan and has many interesting elements to his character, Dick simply isn't Bruce. That being said, I think there's a lot of untapped potential here that DC has yet to take advantage of.

You'll notice that I haven't really commented on whether or not Dick should be distanced from the Batman mythology. In all honesty, I'm not really sure. I think much of what makes Dick interesting is attributed to the lore he comes from. At the same time, I can't help but feel his multiple appearances in Batman stories further contributes to the idea that he's still playing second fiddle. In any case, I think these three things would really catapult Dick to tier one status.

As of right now, the Marvel Universe has a ton of what could be considered tier one heroes. Most of them have their own books and they're mainly spread across three teams (Avengers, FF, X-Men). DC really only has a handful and they pretty much make up the JLA's Big 7. Do what I suggested to Dick and you have your Big 8.

Edit: What is tier 1?

I recognize what's considered "tier 1" is somewhat subjective. For some, "tier 1" is a broader category than to others. Using sports as an analogy, some people think they're in the top tier if they somehow manage to limp into the playoffs. I don't think like that. You're either a top-seeded team/character or you're not.

Let's do a quick character comparison. The gap between a Green Lantern and Nightwing right now is pretty large. How so? Well, GL has almost no limits as to what can be done with him creatively. Nightwing on the other hand has a very specific ceiling. He can be written awesome, but he's not allowed to approach Batman's level of awesome. That's what keeps him out of tier one for me.

Wally West and Kyle Rayner have both been at Nightwing's level before. But Rayner became a full-time member of arguably the most powerful JLA team ever assembled (during Morrison's run). Kyle is also regarded as the most creative Green Lantern out there.

Wally on the other hand surpassed his predecessor in almost every way, shape, and form. Wally's situation is even more analogous to Nightwing in that he was someone we were able to see grow and develop throughout the years. But whereas Wally was allowed to reach for the stars, Nightwing has been given a ceiling as to what he can achieve.

Let me ask you something: has the emergence of Wally and Kyle diminished what Hal and Barry accomplished? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's difficult to say. But I would argue that the DC Universe has been richer because of their involvement.

Now is the time to take the creative training wheels off of Nightwing. It's time to give this character the attention and care that it deserves. If DC were to do that, they would have a new pillar to milk for money. As of right now, whether you like it or not - Nightwing is part of Batman's pillar. Tony Stark (Marvel reference) has his own pillar. Hal Jordan has his own pillar. Dick Grayson deserves his own pillar. But he doesn't have one. And that's why he isn't tier 1.

#2 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

One word....

Agreed.

#3 Posted by Joygirl (19959 posts) - - Show Bio

The only one of those that's possible is the first. And yeah... I think Johns understands dick... ahem, I mean Dick.

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#4 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20241 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

The only one of those that's possible is the first. And yeah... I think Johns understands dick... ahem, I mean Dick.

Clever lol

#5 Posted by jonEsherfey (443 posts) - - Show Bio

That would work and I like the idea he would be more major but I am not so sure abut him leading the JLA

#6 Posted by TheCannon (18712 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

#7 Posted by chocobojam (288 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no way that nightwing would be equal to batman.

#8 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@chocobojam said:

There is no way that nightwing would be equal to batman.

Explain why. Are you saying it isn't feasible from a story standpoint, or are you saying that the community would never allow it?

#9 Posted by chocobojam (288 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker said:

@chocobojam said:

There is no way that nightwing would be equal to batman.

Explain why. Are you saying it isn't feasible from a story standpoint, or are you saying that the community would never allow it?

Both. Because i think that DC and the community will always see Batman as the main man while Dick Grayson/NIghtwing will always be seen as a former sidekick to batman. That is why if Bruce is gone as Batman, Dick Grayson will always be willing to surrender his role as Nightwing to replace Batman.

#10 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker said:

@chocobojam said:

There is no way that nightwing would be equal to batman.

Explain why. Are you saying it isn't feasible from a story standpoint, or are you saying that the community would never allow it?

The community would never allow it.

#11 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

@Reignmaker said:

@chocobojam said:

There is no way that nightwing would be equal to batman.

Explain why. Are you saying it isn't feasible from a story standpoint, or are you saying that the community would never allow it?

The community would never allow it.

And that's a shame. I don't think people realize that Batman's character wouldn't be worse off because of this.

#12 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been saying this for months now. Glad to see others are finally realizing it.

#13 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

/agree

If ARROW can be semi-successful, so would NIGHTWING. Probably even more so.

#14 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker: Yeah but I look at it this way, Nightwing is ours, the comicbook fans. Not comicbook movie fans, true comicbooks.

#15 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell the f*ck no on #2.

#16 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13137 posts) - - Show Bio

i thought Nightwing WAS a tier one superhero.

#17 Posted by SoA (4836 posts) - - Show Bio

tier 1 as far as DC characters go, mean the JLA founders everyone else is 2nd rate IMO.

in his own right , i believe nightwing is a great character and has stepped out of batman's shadow , though for a limited time was even a proven successor to the batman legacy , also:

@Reignmaker: Yeah but I look at it this way, Nightwing is ours, the comicbook fans. Not comicbook movie fans, true comicbooks.

#18 Posted by Franchise1590 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

Hell the f*ck no on #2.

This...

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

i thought Nightwing WAS a tier one superhero.

Aaaaand This.

Some decent ideas here mixed in with terrible ones.

#19 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@Franchise1590 said:

@Crom-Cruach said:

Hell the f*ck no on #2.

This...

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

i thought Nightwing WAS a tier one superhero.

Aaaaand This.

Some decent ideas here mixed in with terrible ones.

If you don't mind, please expound on what you found terrible. Here's my response to the "tier 1" reference:

What is tier 1?

I recognize what's considered "tier 1" is somewhat subjective. For some, "tier 1" is a broader category than to others. Using sports as an analogy, some people think they're in the top tier if they somehow manage to limp into the playoffs. I don't think like that. You're either a top-seeded team/character or you're not.

Let's do a quick character comparison. The gap between a Green Lantern and Nightwing right now is pretty large. How so? Well, GL has almost no limits as to what can be done with him creatively. Nightwing on the other hand has a very specific ceiling. He can be written awesome, but he's not allowed to approach Batman's level of awesome. That's what keeps him out of tier one for me.

Wally West and Kyle Rayner have both been at Nightwing's level before. But Rayner became a full-time member of arguably the most powerful JLA team ever assembled (during Morrison's run). Kyle is also regarded as the most creative Green Lantern out there.

Wally on the other hand surpassed his predecessor in almost every way, shape, and form. Wally's situation is even more analogous to Nightwing in that he was someone we were able to see grow and develop throughout the years. But whereas Wally was allowed to reach for the stars, Nightwing has been given a ceiling as to what he can achieve.

Let me ask you something: has the emergence of Wally and Kyle diminished what Hal and Barry accomplished? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's difficult to say. But I would argue that the DC Universe has been richer because of their involvement.

Now is the time to take the creative training wheels off of Nightwing. It's time to give this character the attention and care that it deserves. If DC were to do that, they would have a new pillar to milk for money. As of right now, whether you like it or not - Nightwing is part of Batman's pillar. Tony Stark (Marvel reference) has his own pillar. Hal Jordan has his own pillar. Dick Grayson deserves his own pillar. But he doesn't have one. And that's why he isn't tier 1.

#20 Edited by Franchise1590 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmak

Let me ask you something: has the emergence of Wally and Kyle diminished what Hal and Barry accomplished? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's difficult to say. But I would argue that the DC Universe has been richer because of their involvement.

Now is the time to take the creative training wheels off of Nightwing. It's time to give this character the attention and care that it deserves. If DC were to do that, they would have a new pillar to milk for money. As of right now, whether you like it or not - Nightwing is part of Batman's pillar. Tony Stark (Marvel reference) has his own pillar. Hal Jordan has his own pillar. Dick Grayson deserves his own pillar. But he doesn't have one. And that's why he isn't tier 1.

As for the bolded part YES! You bet your ass they diminished them. At least in my opinion. Wally was a much better Flash than Barry ever was and Kyle was more likable than Hal ever was and both have people begging their return.

As for your pillar argument, it's easily countered by me saying the robins that followed Dick are his pillar. None have attained his level of success of mainstream appeal or popularity with comic fans or respect in the DC realm I think.

Dick does not need beat Batman in a straight fight and he shouldn't. He can come close but he would hurt Bats legacy to lose to Dick. Just like if Superman got beaten and replaced in the JL for a year or two by Powergirl his legacy would take a hit.

Nightwing should get his own live action show like ARROW but never match Batman in skill....He's Batman.

#21 Posted by aaunderoath (165 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed wholeheartedly. By him never reaching the heights you've described I see as a major fail for Batman. If his first and most trained Robin can't reach his level, handle big bads on his own, and join the JL then Batman is a failure of a mentor. If Nightwing were to not necessarily beat Bruce but maybe get him out of a bind or refuse Bruce's help with an a-list villain, that alone would put him on level with alot of other heroes. The big thing here is Nightwing should be able to handle a-list villains and should absolutely be part of, if not the JL but and extension of the JL.

He shouldn't and most likely never will surpass Bruce but absolutely should be able to catch up to him. Batman is not God he is a normal human, meaning there is no reason someone shouldn't be able to catch up to him especially his pupil he spent the most time with

#22 Edited by Squalleon (4610 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker: Amen Brother!!

Especially the second part

Dick has natural talent he should be better than bruce since he holds the same knowledge in martial arts

#23 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@Franchise1590 said:

@Reignmak

Let me ask you something: has the emergence of Wally and Kyle diminished what Hal and Barry accomplished? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's difficult to say. But I would argue that the DC Universe has been richer because of their involvement.

As for the bolded part YES! You bet your ass they diminished them. At least in my opinion. Wally was a much better Flash than Barry ever was and Kyle was more likable than Hal ever was and both have people begging their return.

So are you saying it would have been better to just focus on Barry and Hal the whole time? Seems to me that DC created some wonderful characters and that's why people are begging to have them back. Hal still got his movie AND his animated series. And his book is still a bestseller. I'll admit that Barry's reemergence hasn't been as smooth. The thing is though...it's not like I'm asking for Bruce to hang up his cape. He would remain Batman. I'm just saying it's time for Nightwing to break into the next power bracket.

@Franchise1590 said:

As for your pillar argument, it's easily countered by me saying the robins that followed Dick are his pillar. None have attained his level of success of mainstream appeal or popularity with comic fans or respect in the DC realm I think.

Uh, that's not an easy counter, my friend. That's a weak counter. If the Robins are under Grayson's pillar, how come we refer to their regular titles as the "bat books"? I understand that Grayson was the first Robin, but I think you mixed up the point there. And mentioning Grayson's popularity and recognition in other media only furthers my argument that he's ready to step up to the next level.

@Franchise1590 said:

Dick does not need beat Batman in a straight fight and he shouldn't. He can come close but he would hurt Bats legacy to lose to Dick. Just like if Superman got beaten and replaced in the JL for a year or two by Powergirl his legacy would take a hit.

I only mentioned it as one of several ways Dick could become Bruce's equal. I'm not vouching that he becomes Batman's superior. You have to understand, that there's more to Batman than just combat skills. Bruce's mental prowess will always be unmatched, except maybe by Tim. Are you seriously going to say that Bruce's pupils should never reach the level of their mentor? Since when has that rule ever made any sense? Let me help you out, it hasn't. Ever.

Likening Nightwing and Batman to Power Girl and Superman is ludicrous, and you know it. Grayson has been around for AGES. He's been around longer than both Green Lantern AND Wonder Woman! Power Girl is famous for her boobs.

#24 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker said:

If you don't mind, please expound on what you found terrible. Here's my response to the "tier 1" reference:

Because Dick beating batman, especially in the repugnant way you describe would be a grave insult to the very concept of batman as a character which is all about him having actually earned his right to be in the Trinity because, amongst other things, he went through hell and back and made himself one of the greatest fighters in the world. Amongst actual heroes, there are few we can match him let alone beat him on skill alone, as opposed to having super-powers (Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain being those few). And these two have very narrow focuses being almost entirely combattants (Cassandra Cain) or pure martial artists (Richard Dragon). The only ones on his level are villains. And that's how it should be, it's part of what makes him Batman. He's the pinnacle of human achievement, the only one's transcend his level are crippled (Cassandra Cain being the best example) in other ways because of the horrific necessity it takes to reach the level batman has, passing it means cutting corners elsewhere.

Dick on the other hand is a well-rounded here who's qualities and concepts have nothing to do with him being the best martial artist. He became Nightwing by not wanting to be batman, by being different. His martial art skills are completely secondary to what is needed to make him tier 1 as you profess. What they need to do is heighten what makes him different then batman, both personality and talent wise. He doesn't need to be better then batman at things batman is supposed to be the best at to be a good character. He needs to be differentiated from Batman. Show that in areas where batman's very concept shows he's not the best at, that there Greyson may shine. Making Batman lose to Greyson would be just a cheap and tasteless "Look at how awezomez Greyson iz he beat batman!".

It would be just disgusting.

#25 Edited by Jack Donaghy (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

@Reignmaker said:

If you don't mind, please expound on what you found terrible. Here's my response to the "tier 1" reference:

Because Dick beating batman, especially in the repugnant way you describe would be a grave insult to the very concept of batman as a character which is all about him having actually earned his right to be in the Trinity because, amongst other things, he went through hell and back and made himself one of the greatest fighters in the world. Amongst actual heroes, there are few we can match him let alone beat him on skill alone, as opposed to having super-powers (Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain being those few). And these two have very narrow focuses being almost entirely combattants (Cassandra Cain) or pure martial artists (Richard Dragon). The only ones on his level are villains. And that's how it should be, it's part of what makes him Batman. He's the pinnacle of human achievement, the only one's transcend his level are crippled (Cassandra Cain being the best example) in other ways because of the horrific necessity it takes to reach the level batman has, passing it means cutting corners elsewhere.

Dick on the other hand is a well-rounded here who's qualities and concepts have nothing to do with him being the best martial artist. He became Nightwing by not wanting to be batman, by being different. His martial art skills are completely secondary to what is needed to make him tier 1 as you profess. What they need to do is heighten what makes him different then batman, both personality and talent wise. He doesn't need to be better then batman at things batman is supposed to be the best at to be a good character. He needs to be differentiated from Batman. Show that in areas where batman's very concept shows he's not the best at, that there Greyson may shine. Making Batman lose to Greyson would be just a cheap and tasteless "Look at how awezomez Greyson iz he beat batman!".

It would be just disgusting.

I agree with this, having him beat Batman in a fight won't really accomplish all that much in the long run, showing he can handle A-List villains on his own and showing what makes him different from Batman is what will make him a A-List character. If popularity was based on who could beat who Karate Kid would be a much bigger star than Batman, it's all about the characters personality, uniqueness and talent working on them that makes them big .

#26 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jack Donaghy said:

@Crom-Cruach said:

@Reignmaker said:

If you don't mind, please expound on what you found terrible. Here's my response to the "tier 1" reference:

Because Dick beating batman, especially in the repugnant way you describe would be a grave insult to the very concept of batman as a character which is all about him having actually earned his right to be in the Trinity because, amongst other things, he went through hell and back and made himself one of the greatest fighters in the world. Amongst actual heroes, there are few we can match him let alone beat him on skill alone, as opposed to having super-powers (Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain being those few). And these two have very narrow focuses being almost entirely combattants (Cassandra Cain) or pure martial artists (Richard Dragon). The only ones on his level are villains. And that's how it should be, it's part of what makes him Batman. He's the pinnacle of human achievement, the only one's transcend his level are crippled (Cassandra Cain being the best example) in other ways because of the horrific necessity it takes to reach the level batman has, passing it means cutting corners elsewhere.

Dick on the other hand is a well-rounded here who's qualities and concepts have nothing to do with him being the best martial artist. He became Nightwing by not wanting to be batman, by being different. His martial art skills are completely secondary to what is needed to make him tier 1 as you profess. What they need to do is heighten what makes him different then batman, both personality and talent wise. He doesn't need to be better then batman at things batman is supposed to be the best at to be a good character. He needs to be differentiated from Batman. Show that in areas where batman's very concept shows he's not the best at, that there Greyson may shine. Making Batman lose to Greyson would be just a cheap and tasteless "Look at how awezomez Greyson iz he beat batman!".

It would be just disgusting.

I agree with this, having him beat Batman in a fight won't really accomplish all that much in the long run, showing he can handle A-List villains on his own and showing what makes him different from Batman is what will make him a A-List character. If popularity was based on who could beat who Karate Kid would be a much bigger star than Batman, it's all about the characters personality, uniqueness and talent working on them that makes them big .

I'm not certain it would do the trick. People need dramatic examples to change their perceptions. Beating Batman would make mainstream news, but I admit that it would have to be handled very carefully in order to avoid future fallout.

Having said all of that, I understand where you guys are coming from. If Grayson got even half of the things I asked for, I would be happy.

#27 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

@Reignmaker said:

If you don't mind, please expound on what you found terrible. Here's my response to the "tier 1" reference:

Because Dick beating batman, especially in the repugnant way you describe would be a grave insult to the very concept of batman as a character which is all about him having actually earned his right to be in the Trinity because, amongst other things, he went through hell and back and made himself one of the greatest fighters in the world. Amongst actual heroes, there are few we can match him let alone beat him on skill alone, as opposed to having super-powers (Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain being those few). And these two have very narrow focuses being almost entirely combattants (Cassandra Cain) or pure martial artists (Richard Dragon). The only ones on his level are villains. And that's how it should be, it's part of what makes him Batman. He's the pinnacle of human achievement, the only one's transcend his level are crippled (Cassandra Cain being the best example) in other ways because of the horrific necessity it takes to reach the level batman has, passing it means cutting corners elsewhere.

Dick on the other hand is a well-rounded here who's qualities and concepts have nothing to do with him being the best martial artist. He became Nightwing by not wanting to be batman, by being different. His martial art skills are completely secondary to what is needed to make him tier 1 as you profess. What they need to do is heighten what makes him different then batman, both personality and talent wise. He doesn't need to be better then batman at things batman is supposed to be the best at to be a good character. He needs to be differentiated from Batman. Show that in areas where batman's very concept shows he's not the best at, that there Greyson may shine. Making Batman lose to Greyson would be just a cheap and tasteless "Look at how awezomez Greyson iz he beat batman!".

It would be just disgusting.

I agree with this whole post. Dick doesnt need to beat Bruce at anything to be an A-list character

#28 Posted by Jewlz_Verne (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I think the best angle is to make Batman and Nightwing sort of enemies. make it where they don't see eye to eye anymore and the last thing Dick would ever do is dawn the Bat-suit. Make it that if they work together, they , or at least Nightwing, does so reluctantly. I believe in order for Dick to be taken seriously, he needs to offer something different from Batman.

Dick can beat Batman under a number of conditions that allow him to gain credibility while batman maintains his. Using Star Wars: If you remember, Darth Vader killed Obi-Wan but it came across that obi-Wan allowed him to do so for a greater good. Darth still seemed like a badass. In Star Wars episode 3 when Obi-Wan defeats Aniken mutilating him to become Darth, they seemed even but Obi-Wan won only by luck.Using Fast 5: Brian wants races Domanic and he does but Domanic beats him by cheating. This makes you think that Brian will win in specific circumstances.

What i'm saying is I too agree that Dick has to beat Bruce and if he does so, it has to be because Bruce allowed it for some greater good reason (Darth vs Obi-Wan). if Not than Bruce has to Win by cheating or sheer luck (Fast 5 and star wars episode 3).

#29 Posted by God_Spawn (37882 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's possible. Marvel has made Bucky grown comparable to Cap as a fighter without being as mainstream.

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#30 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

I get Luthor, Bane and Deathstroke, but Brainiac? Seriously?

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#31 Posted by xtremekidx (576 posts) - - Show Bio

what i can agree with is this.....make him a character who can fight and stand-off against big names.....but this needs to be done right....im not necesseraly naming johns but someone who knows what he is doing......i would like to compare this with the latest two issues of nightwing...as hyped i was for lady shiva based on the 0 issue,the two issue did not give me a good story....i consider her to be a top tier fighter in dc,and if dick could even come close to beating her would make him a big shot....but the ball was dropped and all i got was a confrontation which needed to happen and a pointless story set around it which itself made the fight pointless..

#32 Posted by Kenpenders28 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker:Sorry, Dick is never going to beat Bruce in H2h

#33 Posted by Loki9876 (3048 posts) - - Show Bio

if he had a writer like scott snyder or Johns (he doesn't need to be as strong as batman) than you give him some very scary and dangerous like professor Pygand some other villains that are focussing on him and not the batfamily as a whole.

#34 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kenpenders28 said:

@Reignmaker:Sorry, Dick is never going to beat Bruce in H2h

Never is a long time.

#35 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

...

#36 Posted by jesusdisciple001 (546 posts) - - Show Bio

get a joker wannabe,make Dick get beaten by batman after a tough battle and let him go to bludhaven to fight new badguys the villian thing i realllllllllllllllllly want 4 him and green arrow

#37 Posted by jesusdisciple001 (546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker:were did u get that 1st pic from? cuz that artist should be the definitive nightwing artist in new 52

#38 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker: I wish this would happen. Dick vs Bruce fight you mentioned would be pretty epic to see!

#39 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@jesusdisciple001 said:

@Reignmaker:were did u get that 1st pic from? cuz that artist should be the definitive nightwing artist in new 52

Long-time Nightwing artist Scott McDaniel. He hasn't been on anything for the past few years. I've actually enjoyed Eddy Barrows but it looks like he's leaving the book now.

@PlasticBag said:

@Reignmaker: I wish this would happen. Dick vs Bruce fight you mentioned would be pretty epic to see!

Yeah, I actually don't think it's as far-fetched as others on here seem to think. Bruce Wayne is my favorite character in comics. There's no way I would want to see him disrespected. But getting beat by your pupil isn't a defeat. On the contrary, it's a victory.

#40 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker: I wish this would happen. Dick vs Bruce fight you mentioned would be pretty epic to see!

Yeah, I actually don't think it's as far-fetched as others on here seem to think. Bruce Wayne is my favorite character in comics. There's no way I would want to see him disrespected. But getting beat by your pupil isn't a defeat. On the contrary, it's a victory.

Maybe one day even though chances are very slim. It would make such a great storyI think it'd be one of the best. @Reignmaker

#41 Posted by PowerHerc (83692 posts) - - Show Bio

I already consider Dick Grayson a Tier #1, A-List, 1st Rate hero

Online
#42 Posted by ImmortalOne (3448 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree on everything except point C. Never gonna happen.

#43 Posted by renobjc (105 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Point C is EXTREMELY unlikely. I agree completely with everything else, especially with point B.

#44 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reignmaker: Beautiful post. Several good points, some I'm not sure I agree with completely, but really just a beautiful post. Well done.

#45 Posted by Rick_Grayson (779 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:

If ARROW can be semi-successful, so would NIGHTWING. Probably even more so.

HELL YES! This!
#46 Edited by Franchise1590 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I already consider Dick Grayson a Tier #1, A-List, 1st Rate hero

This again.

Like I said before he already is a tier 1 hero, easily the most popular of ALL spin-off side kick characters. The only one that comes close is She-Hulk, Supergirl, or maaaaaybee Deadpool but he not really a true spin-off.

Nightwing shouldn't beat Batman in a straight up fight ever. Batman is suppose to be the peak of Humanity if they dedicate themselves.

You'd have to change Dick's personality too much for it to make sense.

#47 Posted by rodiggle (20 posts) - - Show Bio

I love the idea of a Nightwing animated series. If Teen Titans or Young Justice can work so could that.

#48 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

#49 Posted by jobiwankenobi (1459 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with some of this. Nightwing should be given more, and he's a good character. He should be his own hero separate from Batman (isn't that why he quit?) .

But he can do this without one-upping Batman. He just needs to leave like originally planned to and do his own thing.

#50 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

Since I'm always interested in hearing feedback, I'll bump this every so often. But not without showcasing some cool Grayson art from around the net.

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