Before anyone goes and rips my head off let me just say Nightwing is my favorite comic book character and I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed. Anyway here we go, I feel incredibly disappointed with Nightwing so far in the New 52 (and YJ but that’s another story.) I want Nightwing to have more and to be on par as his own superhero. I mean that’s why he became NIGHTWING isn’t it? So far he’s just a carbon copy of Batman and a generic sidekick. I have read all of Nightwing’s New 52 comics and some of the other bat family’s (i.e. Batman and Robin, Red Hood, Red Robin, Etc) and to me there is nothing that makes Nightwing unique. He seems to be a watered down version of a sidekick that has Dick Grayson elements to him. For example in night of the owls there was nothing special about him. He fights a couple Talons while Batman fights a horde of them. The Gray –Son thing seemed really cool and could be possibly be made into a great story but they just dropped it and went on to a different villain. The reason I liked Nightwing so much in the past is he grew up. Very few characters actually grow up in comics. He left his role as Robin to be more and so far he really hasn’t. He is as generic as the other Batman sidekicks. If you locked me in a room and asked what makes Nightwing a real hero and not a sidekick I couldn’t come up with anything. Dick was the first and the original Robin that grew to be something more, so give it to him. In fact if I am correct he may have even been the first sidekick to attempt to get out of the hero’s shadow but DC has made a great concept with no delivery.

Instead of just complaining here is my idea for a solution. First off put him back in BLUE, distinguish him from the rest of the family. Send him back to Bludhaven and use the new Talon comic as Nightwing’s nemeses. Talon if used correctly could be a great villain for Nightwing. It fits into growing up and finding one’s own destiny thing but instead Talons just a man on the run. the Court of Owls can catch Calvin and offer to leave him alone for Nightwing's head, both trying to escape their past but caught up on what was supposed to be. That’s just my thoughts what are yours?

idk ive liked this current run, but i really havent cared for the past 3 issue arc. i can see how you feel that way, Nightwing is alot like Batman, hell he was Batman for a year. i was concerned that Gotham wasnt the right place for him and for a time i really wanted him back in Bludhaven, and hopefully once the Joker arc is done Dick will feel he needs his time away from Gotham and go to Bludhaven

I completly agree.

He needs to move out of Gotham and back to Bludhaven. Having Nightwing in Gotham makes it too easy for Snyder to use Grayson as more of a sidekick in the Batman series. Having easy access to a character who is better than Damian is too big a temptation for anyone to handle. Put him in Bludhaven and put him in blue. Both of these, in addition to having guest appearances from former Titans (that is if they are in existence) would help to show Dick Grayson's greatness and prominence throughout the DC Universe.

He also needs a "Joker".

So Far Higgins Writing's Has Impressed Me

And People Need To Get The New In New 52

Nightwing #0 seems to be the start of Dick branching out (timeline wise I know its pre-Court of Owls but thats not my point :P). In my opinion it seems like his portrayal was held back so issue 0 to be used as the launching pad, we'll see though. 

Considering what has happened to his kickass friends, he is lucky, at least he exist, I think that by the time of the reboot they had gotten too big. I'm giving this version time to grow, and the book is fun.

I would like the blue back and that they take him out of Gotham, though. It would be cool if he had a career apart of Nightwing.

I don't think he needs to go to Bludhaven. The type of stories being told wouldn't really change with him going there. What needs to be changed is he needs to have a greater presence in the DCU. Before the reboot he probably had more relationships and connections throughout the universe than nearly anyone else, but all that seems nonexistent now. He feels so isolated, which is a trait that doesn't fit the character well. What would help is him fighting more established villains in arcs that focus on him (not in some tie-in story where the main focus is in the main Bat title), interacting with other established heroes and having what happens in those arcs have an impact on the DCU. An arc where he teamed up with Cyborg to fight some threat would have been good. Him being one of the few bat family members not on a team hurts too, but that is a separate issue though.

Unfortunately Higgins probably has the least about of freedom of any of the Bat writers. So he can't really tell big stories and use established characters the way some of the other writers can. Also because of the New Teen Titan history being completely ignored until they figure out what to do with it that is barring him for really interacting with characters he used to have strong bonds with.

On a bit of a sidenote, I'm not sure what you are disappointed about with him in regards to Young Justice (the TV show, right?) but if its the way his current op is very Batman-ish, i think that's part of the brilliance of the show, right now. They made such a point in the first season of him saying,"I want to help but I don't want to be...to become Bruce". Yet, we look at continuity and here we are. But it's not like this is lost on the audience and I don't think the writers are making him a carbon copy. I think this was intentional to show the kind of decisions he has to make as an adult growing up. He's realizing more of what it means to be Batman. And it's not like this isn't taking it's toll on him. The burden that he is carrying seems to be crushing him, if you ask me. Outwardy, he's becoming like Batman but I get the feeeling that inside he's screaming "this isn't what I was supposed to become!" But he will take it. Why? Because he's the hero the Team deserves...but not the one it needs :)

In summary: i think it's great character development and accurately reflects life. He will haver to face his demons and he will do it in a much different way than bruce would. Plus, the tragic irony is kinda compelling

@Munsu hit the main problem right on the head. Dick "Nightwing" Grayson is at the moment one of the most isolated characters in DC Comics. And after decades of publication that is quite simply a travesty. He was the go to guy, the person EVERYONE knew and could talk to. People were proud to be his friend. When he sent out a call, everyone answered. He was one of, if not the, greatest leaders in the DC Universe. The Big 3 of the universe even acknowledged him and more than once agreed he deserved to be honored and given a spot on the Justice League (Which he had led twice) Post-Flashpoint there was now no legendary Teen Titans run (The run that put the character on the map), no Outsiders, and probably no Justice League either. His best friends (Donna Troy, Wally West) were both put on a bus that was headed for a black hole, and one of his other close friends is now bumming around with his younger brother and ex-girlfriend (Another important figure in his life who's been distanced from him). In many ways Dick Grayson is now just a shadow of his former glory.

I'm happy Dick's in Gotham. I think the character was always meant to return there, and I see it as him really coming full circle as the "Prince of Gotham" (Never going to get tired of calling him that) However, the sad thing is that with Bruce there Dick's room for character growth is extremely limited. Anytime he's clashing with a baddie its expected Bruce will show up, and anytime Bruce needs backup its expected Dick will be the first one called. The bond they have just limits Dick in this regard. There's also the fact that he can't really have his own Rogue's Gallery (Which i'd say is an important part of any character). Any villain that shows up and becomes an actual legitimate threat will just end up becoming a part of Bruce's villain roster. Its a tricky situation. I like him in Gotham (Though I will NEVER say his time in Bludhaven was wasted. It was an important part of his development) but perhaps it really would be better if he left the city for somewhere else. If not that then he needs to be on a team to give him an excuse to get out of the city and spread his wings like he was meant to.

I totally agree with you guys, as stated above Nightwing is

but a shadow of his former glory. We

really had a great character that was stripped of everything that made him

great. As for the Teen Titans it would

appear that Dick never lead them and from what I kind of get out of reading the

comics that Tim Drake had the idea of creating the team in the New 52 so all

those bonds he had and all that growth is erased. It’s impossible for him to have lead the JL

because the Justice League itself is barely starting up. Honestly I don’t even

know how experienced he is at this point. In the past he was around the age of

10 and left Bruce around the age of 17 to become Nightwing. However in Nightwing

#0 he appears to be 13 and if everything would at least attempt to make sense,

he only spent a year with Bruce. Think about it all the “robin drama” has been

compacted to 5 years. There are 5 robins, maybe for depending if Stephanie

Brown ever shows up, but both ways Dick and Bruce’s time together couldn’t have

been much longer than a year. In the New

52 if you look at it being the first Robin isn’t really that special because it

didn’t last very long. Hell I would even argue that the existence of these

other Robins doesn’t make sense at this time (I know you guys hate me) but all

the Robins stem off of Dick Grayson except Damian maybe. Jason came because

Bruce needed a Robin and because that bond and team work became a part of Bruce

(hard to make that argument now because Dick was only with him a year) then

Jason got killed and resurrected in less than 5 years. The drama with Tim came

from Jason’s death (the whole I can’t handle loosing another robin thing) and

it was about Bruce regaining trust and faith. But if you look at it in the

context of the first Robin lasted a year and then left, the second got killed

in the second year, and he regained trust and had a new robin by the 3

year and that robin also left. Now I partnered with my ten year old son that I

somehow knocked up his mom whom I met through my adventures as Batman even

though I have only been Batman for 5 years. (that baby don’t look like me jk)

it doesn’t make sense, it’s not real.

Here is basically what we have with Nightwing so far

No reason he even became Nightwing (although it looks like

we will get an answer soon)

No membership in any team (JL, TT, YJ, Outsiders)

No meaningful stories

No connections or relationships with anyone outside the

family

The basic question is who is Dick Grayson because at this

point nobody has any idea. As also stated above he needs a “Joker” and I really

believe Talon could make a great villain for Nightwing. The whole Gray-son

thing could be really great for him. But that to kind of got perverted by Bruce’s

brother, Nightwing desperately needs a bad guy and Bruce really didn’t need

any.

Maybe this whole Death of the Family will bring about new

and better things for dick and we will begin to see him grow. I have faith in

DC and maybe it just takes some time for Nightwing to grow again but I am

begging you DC don’t turn Nightwing into a carbon copy.

For anyone having a hard time with the OP's formatting, I put them into solid paragraphs:

@RitchieB said:

Before anyone goes and rips my head off let me just say Nightwing is my favorite comic book character and I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed. Anyway here we go, I feel incredibly disappointed

with Nightwing so far in the New 52 (and YJ but that’s another story.) I want Nightwing to have more and to be on par as his own superhero. I mean that’s why he became NIGHTWING isn’t it? So far he’s just a carbon copy of Batman and a generic sidekick. I have read all of Nightwing’s New 52 comics and some of the other bat family’s (i.e. Batman and Robin, Red Hood, Red Robin, Etc) and to me there is nothing that makes Nightwing unique. He seems to be a watered down version of a sidekick that has Dick Grayson elements to him. For example in night of the owls there was nothing special about him. He fights a couple Talons while Batman fights a horde of them. The Gray –Son thing seemed really cool and could be possibly be made into a great story but they just dropped it and went on to a different villain. The reason I liked Nightwing so much in the past is he grew up. Very few characters actually grow up in comics. He left his role as Robin to be more and so far he really hasn’t. He is as generic as the other Batman sidekicks. If you locked me in a room and asked what makes Nightwing a real hero and not a sidekick I couldn’t come up with anything. Dick was the first and the original Robin that grew to be something more, so give it to him. In fact if I am correct he may have even been the first sidekick to attempt to get out of the hero’s shadow but DC has made a great concept with no delivery.

Instead of just complaining here is my idea for a solution. First off put him back in BLUE, distinguish him from the rest of the family. Send him back to Bludhaven and use the new Talon comic as Nightwing’s nemeses. Talon if used correctly could be a great villain for Nightwing. It fits into growing up and finding one’s own destiny thing but instead Talons just a man on the run. the Court of Owls can catch Calvin and offer to leave him alone for Nightwings head, both trying to escape their past but caught up on what was supposed to be. That’s just my thoughts what are yours?

@RitchieB said:

I totally agree with you guys, as stated above Nightwing is but a shadow of his former glory. We really had a great character that was stripped of everything that made him great.

As for the Teen Titans it would appear that Dick never lead them and from what I kind of get out of reading the comics that Tim Drake had the idea of creating the team in the New 52 so all those bonds he had and all that growth is erased. It’s impossible for him to have lead the JL because the Justice League itself is barely starting up. Honestly I don’t even know how experienced he is at this point. In the past he was around the age of 10 and left Bruce around the age of 17 to become Nightwing. However in Nightwing #0 he appears to be 13 and if everything would at least attempt to make sense, he only spent a year with Bruce. Think about it all the “robin drama” has been compacted to 5 years. There are 5 robins, maybe for depending if Stephanie Brown ever shows up, but both ways Dick and Bruce’s time together couldn’t have been much longer than a year. In the New 52 if you look at it being the first Robin isn’t really that special because it didn’t last very long. Hell I would even argue that the existence of these other Robins doesn’t make sense at this time (I know you guys hate me) but all the Robins stem off of Dick Grayson except Damian maybe. Jason came because Bruce needed a Robin and because that bond and team work became a part of Bruce (hard to make that argument now because Dick was only with him a year) then Jason got killed and resurrected in less than 5 years. The drama with Tim came from Jason’s death (the whole I can’t handle loosing another robin thing) and it was about Bruce regaining trust and faith. But if you look at it in the context of the first Robin lasted a year and then left, the second got killed in the second year, and he regained trust and had a new robin by the 3 year and that robin also left. Now I partnered with my ten year old son that I somehow knocked up his mom whom I met through my adventures as Batman even though I have only been Batman for 5 years. (that baby don’t look like me jk) it doesn’t make sense, it’s not real.

Here is basically what we have with Nightwing so far No reason he even became Nightwing (although it looks like we will get an answer soon) No membership in any team (JL, TT, YJ, Outsiders) No meaningful stories No connections or relationships with anyone outside the family

The basic question is who is Dick Grayson because at this point nobody has any idea. As also stated above he needs a “Joker” and I really believe Talon could make a great villain for Nightwing. The whole Gray-son thing could be really great for him. But that to kind of got perverted by Bruce’s brother, Nightwing desperately needs a bad guy and Bruce really didn’t need any.

Maybe this whole Death of the Family will bring about new and better things for dick and we will begin to see him grow. I have faith in DC and maybe it just takes some time for Nightwing to grow again but I am begging you DC don’t turn Nightwing into a carbon copy.

Just a suggestion, but if you're typing your posts ahead of time in notepad or something, remember to turn off the "word wrap" option under formatting before you copy the text so you can past it in the reply box.

---

Now, to reply to your actual points: I think the Talon storyline should've centered around Grayson, not Bruce, as it's basically as story about how the Circus he grew up in was evil. They never should've done the red in his costume either, because it makes him less unique. As Batman, Grayson really grew as a character and had some awesome new villains just for him, so he was poised to return to the Nightwing mantle in a big way but they failed to capitalize on that. I'm hopeful, however, that they seem to be setting up Lady Shiva as a Nightwing villain, since that could be interesting and make the character more prominent.

oh and i really dont think they where holding him back for issue # 0. that doesnt make sense why relaunch a series and then say lets hold everyone back for 12 issues and start over again. I dont know if you guys recieved it but I got a survey from DC via email and they just asked for feed back so I think death of the family and # 0 are a response to that ( not just me but probably from the feedback they got as a whole) . thats why I have faith that DC is trying to turn this around and I doubt Nightwing will get killed off. His sales are to high. if you look at the comic sales report he is usually around # 30 overall that includes all of marvel and the others and around 14th for DC. so Dick is doing fairly well so no death for him at this point.

@fodigg

I see what your saying about Lady Shiva and hopefully she will help Nightwing grow and become more independent but I dont really see her being a "joker" to Nightwing much more of a "Catwoman" Someone that Dick has confrontations with but not really a bad guy and I think she will also be Dicks new love interest since his love affair with Barbra and Star Fire seems to have been erased. That would make sense to why they de-aged her into the same age as Nightwing where as before she was closer to Bruce's age. Yea a great catwoman but deff not a Joker.

@RitchieB: That would be fine by me. I've been pulling for a reintroduction of Cassandra Cain as the biological daughter of Shiva and Nightwing in other threads. Although I guess that would make them more like Roy Harper and Cheshire than Bruce Wayne and Catwoman.

I see nuffin wrong wit nightwing, except for probably be in gotham but the new 52 nightwing is tite

I personally think that Nightwing is no longer NW. What made Nightwing a such great character was the growth. In the new 52 he no longer has that, hes a shadow of his former glory. Not to mention his origin is so stupid and doesn't any make sense, same with Jason. This is supposed to be a new of everything right? Why couldn't they have spaced things up? Took some real risks? How about Dick and Jason both taking in by Batman at the same time? Jason already thinks that Dick is like Bruce favourite son and all. That would really put the whole rival thing that has been going on with Dick and Jason in a new level. Also in Bruce mind Jason is pretty much the bad son and that Dick is the good one. I should become a writer.......

I do agree with you. (and very much so about putting him back in the blue suit).

@fodigg said:

@RitchieB: That would be fine by me. I've been pulling for a reintroduction of Cassandra Cain as the biological daughter of Shiva and Nightwing in other threads. Although I guess that would make them more like Roy Harper and Cheshire than Bruce Wayne and Catwoman.

Dick having a daugher would be something new and interesting. I kinda want to see it happen now, though she wouldn't be able to be that old. Dick's what? 21?

I doubt Cassandra will be Dick and Shivas daughter. they said they would reintroduce her soon and Dick and Shiva arent really old enough at this point unless she was incredibly young which would make her intro kinda pointless.

I think as a comic book the stories and art so far have been good and entertaining, its not my most anticipated title when it comes out but I can't say I recall reading it and being disappointed. Even the Zero issue was pretty good.

I'd be supportive of him moving out of Gotham, if only for there to be less things happening in Gotham any given day (I mean seriously the one thing i've learned this past year of reading comics is If you choose to live in Gotham you deserve whatever is going to happen to you) of course this is a moot point as he's decided to open a carnival in the city.

My regular comic reading started with Flashpoint so all I know about Tim comes from reading wiki articles over the years, the assorted collected comics I would read from time to time and what I heard from friends, but even I know that Tim was a big player in the world, and even though he seems to be written well I'm sure its frustrating to see him like this.

The problem with Nightwing right now is that they (DC) really cannot possibly justify keeping him as a '2nd rate' hero in the DC Universe. The guy was 21 at the time of the New 52 beginning and has already spent a year as Batman, I'll presume he filled the Batman role at the age of 20 given his age at the start of the N52. This is very significant, after-all how many 20 year olds could don the cowl for a year? His time as Batman also means he has held his own alongside the JLA and other '1st rate' heroes in the DC Universe. Before Dick spent time as Batman (pre-flashpoint) DC effectively had an excuse for keeping him as a 2nd rate character because ultimately Dick wasn't really proven in 'the big leagues' as it were before then. But right now I really don't see how they can continue to keep him in such a role.

I can't agree. I mean, unless you want to make a case for him being a generic sidekick in general and always was that in his run, I don't see anything of the like in Higgins' series.

I love Kyle Higgins run so far.

@richardjohngrayson said:

I love Kyle Higgins run so far.

QFT

As stated before the real problem for NW right now is identity. Nobody including DC can give us a definative answer right now on who Dick Grayson is. Not a single comic thus far has given us any insight of to who he is. We have a story about Haleys Circus but thats just a basic fact about NW, everybody knows that regardless if you follow the comics or not.

DC is at a crossroads here and they have an important decision to make. As stated before pre-flashpoint Dick Grayson was on top of the world. He earned the respect of a true hero which is really what NW is about. Before you had a NW that was respected by everyone in the DCU and had finally achieved a worthy status. think about it he ran the Justice League, he was accepted as the hero of Gotham by all when Bruce was "dead" but lately its almost if they stripped all the countless achievements hes made. think about it he went from a ten year old boy ,to a sidekick, to the leader of a team, to having his own city, to running the JL but now hes just some guy thats trying to open a carnival. Nightwing is not Robin, Robin is about supporting Batman and learning from a mentor, Nightwing is about becoming your own man and its been 11 years in comicbook time and around half of that time Nightwing has been trying to establish himself.

DC has to make a choice either NW is going to settle and be basically a sidekick to Batman that gets a little free time or he becomes his own hero but they arent both going to happen. DC needs to decide who Nightwing is. If you look at the comics we had the Haley Circus, alright thats cool new 52 give Dick a little background story cool. then you have Court of the Owls. A story all bout Dick Graysons past, a sort of what could have been. The Talons arent really about Bruce because to the Court hes just a name on a list that need to be taken care of. But Dick was important he had a history, a deeper meaning behind the identity of Dick Grayson but was it explored NO. it was turned into something about Bruces "brother". Thats where my Disapointment stems from to have a hero that was leading up to be so much to be cast aside and just brought into the fold of a supporting Batman Arc. Haleys Circus and Sieko lead to the Court of Owls, which ended with Batman. then it was dropped and went to the next thing and that my friends is a sidekick. someone who leads up to the hero. Im sorry but Dick took off the Red and Green a longtime ago, time to see what that BLUE bird on his chest really means.

Dick isnt just like batman and all the other sidekicks arnt gineric.

@r3d_rob1n said:

He needs to move out of Gotham and back to Bludhaven. Having Nightwing in Gotham makes it too easy for Snyder to use Grayson as more of a sidekick in the Batman series. Having easy access to a character who is better than Damian is too big a temptation for anyone to handle. Put him in Bludhaven and put him in blue. Both of these, in addition to having guest appearances from former Titans (that is if they are in existence) would help to show Dick Grayson's greatness and prominence throughout the DC Universe.

He also needs a "Joker".

James Gordon, Jr.

reading these type of threads makes me sad :(

@xtremekidx said:

reading these type of threads makes me sad :(

It is a little disheartening, but its a reality of the character. Comfort yourself with the fact that while Dick isn't used to his full potential, he's still been a part of some excellent stories and his popularity is forever growing. :) Its only a matter of time.

I completely agree that the character's been mishandled. I don't think it's to do with the red suit, or being in Gotham. It's to do with the fact that Nightwing was never strong enough as an original identity - he's either too cool for shool, or a glorified sixth Ranger side-kick. He grew so much as Batman, with the Bunker, the flying Bat-Car and having Damian that it's so disappointing to see him back by himself, throwing his uniform on the floor and such. In Morrison;s run he became such a strong leader and being Nightwing again feels like a down-grade. He needs to move on out of his adolescence and become the Red Robin, as predicted in Kingdom Come.

I argue more extensively for this here!

Im really missing Higgins since Delfalco has taken over, and if had become the permanent writer i think i would drop the series. But Higgins is returning for Death of the Family, and so far it looks like it will be devastating for Nightwing and i believe it would cause him to do some soul searching. Hopefully his decisions coming out of the upcoming joker arc will be significant enough to cause some change in his life

The current run is better than his book has ever been IMO.

The current run is better than his book has ever been IMO.

yeah new 52 Dick Grayson is just a shell of his former self, which is a shame cause he had been written so well and gotten such a push prior to the new 52.

It feels like he's regressed a little. I've tried to be optimistic with the title, but its been largely disappointing in the writing department. The circus story arc seemed uninspired imo.

I like Ms. Zucco under Snyder, but this current writer doesn't use her in the same way.

If Booth is the new artist on this book I may be off it indefinitely (can't take his faces).

Dick Grayson is such a cool character and its sad DC tends to underutilize him. Still annoyed the Nightwing cartoon, from the Avatar guys was never picked up.

http://io9.com/5932140/artwork-from-scrapped-nightwing-cartoon-shows-off-dc-heroes-legend-of-korra-style/gallery/1

So your solution is to wreck another potentially great character to save your own character's ass?

How noble.

@Vance Astro said:

The current run is better than his book has ever been IMO.

I'm not feeling the Shiva story.