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    Originally known as "National Publications", DC is a publisher of comic books featuring iconic characters and teams such as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Justice League of America, and the Teen Titans, and is considered the originator of the American superhero genre. DC, along with rival Marvel Comics, is one of the "big two" American comic book publishers. DC Entertainment is a subsidiary of Warner Brothers and its parent company Warner Media.

    Who is the Prime Monitor/Overmonitor?

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    antimonitorrules

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    #1  Edited By antimonitorrules

    Title says it all.  Can anyone explain to me who he is?  It's pretty cofusing.
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    tm24

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    #2  Edited By tm24

    Alright, try to follow me since this is so freaking meta 
     
    The Overmonitor is a being of immense imagination and intelligence. He came about the Bleed and the multiverse and wanted to know what the hell it was. So he sent a probe to investigate, The probe sent out info to the overmonitor and the overmonitor was overwhelmed by the "stories" from each universe in the bleed since it had never experience stories and couldnt understand them, Thats the comic thing.
     
    Grant Morrison explained it like this in terms of what he's supposed to be. Imagine the Overmonitor is a huge, blank piece of paper. There's nothing on him. Nothing. It's clean, white and pure. Until one day it discovers this crazy little drawing at about the 3/4 mark down, a little bit to the left. The little mark turns out to be the DC universe. So he investigates whats being drawn here and then totally freaks out, since he's never seen anything being written or drawn and he doesnt want it on him. The paper is like, i dont want this on my magnificent white paper. So he retreats and deals with it by making this universe "a story" and decides to create a group of beings that can serve the function of watching this "story" and then relaying the information back to him so he learn what in the world is going on. The beings are the monitors 
      
    Basically, the Overmonitor serves as both a fictional and real character. Of course, i could be wrong, considering that this was created by Grant Morrison, and who knows what he's on to write his stories

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    JediXMan

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    #3  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @tm24: 
     
    Where can I see some scans and evidence of the Overmonitor's existence?
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    LONGTIME

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    #4  Edited By LONGTIME
    @JediXMan said:

    " @tm24:   Where can I see some scans and evidence of the Overmonitor's existence? "

    Superman Beyond 3d I think.
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    JediXMan

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    #5  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @LONGTIME said:
    " @JediXMan said:
    " @tm24:   Where can I see some scans and evidence of the Overmonitor's existence? "
    Superman 3d I think. "
    I read it and I don't remember an Overmonitor existing - just a big white void. Not sure how that amounts to a supreme being.
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    SC

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    #6  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan: Some readers interpret Morrison (who has a tendency to ignore rules, and consistencies of the greater fictional Universe setting his stories take place, and a tendency to inject a lot of a meta elements into his story) as by in scope of his character, justifying its supremeness. I tend to agree with your understanding however. You have both those Superman 3D issues? You do not need scans? I scanned them in earlier but your thread was locked by the time i went to post lol
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    JediXMan

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    #7  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC:  
     
    I don't own it. 3D imagery kills my eyes. The only way I can read it is in TPB format and I already own the other comics collected in that trade - I don't feel like spending the money on it right now for just two issues. But I have read it; I just don't see how the Overmonitor can be seen as a being rather than a conceptual thing. I was hoping there was a scan that I missed, but it seems I just have Morrison to blame for the confusion.
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    LONGTIME

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    #8  Edited By LONGTIME
    @JediXMan said:
    " @LONGTIME said:
    " @JediXMan said:
    " @tm24:   Where can I see some scans and evidence of the Overmonitor's existence? "
    Superman 3d I think. "
    I read it and I don't remember an Overmonitor existing - just a big white void. Not sure how that amounts to a supreme being. "
    I think that's what people are referring to as Overmonitor. I'm not sure either.
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    SC

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    #9  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan said:
    " @SC:    I don't own it. 3D imagery kills my eyes. The only way I can read it is in TPB format and I already own the other comics collected in that trade - I don't feel like spending the money on it right now for just two issues. But I have read it; I just don't see how the Overmonitor can be seen as a being rather than a conceptual thing. I was hoping there was a scan that I missed, but it seems I just have Morrison to blame for the confusion. "
     
    Well, it is referred to as a 'kind of abstract infinite intelligence, the biggest life form I've ever encountered.... a conscious living void, with our entire multiverse growing inside it"  or as it being a Monitor. I didn't see any references to Over Monitor but I skimmed, it might just be a fan or wikia name. There is an argument of semantics to be had there.  
     
    Morrison is good for leveling that claim at. Fans maybe as well. Lots of fans love the ideas/ideas of Beyonder like characters who are an infinity of infinite's and so on. This Over Monitor seems to have the same meta tone as Beyonder and TOAA. I don't think Morrison believes in the Presence either. (the real life one)
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    JediXMan

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    #10  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC: 
     
    Hm. Okay. I thought I'd missed something when I read it, but apparently I was looking in the wrong places. I was looking for an actual Monitor, due to the name.
     
    I like the idea of them, as well - well, sometimes. As long as they're not overused or retconned (*cough*moleculeman*cough*) I preferred to think of the supreme being of DC as the Presence, but that claim is being disputed, it seems.
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    SC

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    #11  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan:  Oh, haha, I did the same thing the first time. I wondered to know about all the fuss this character was making, so when I went to the comic store, I skimmed though and saw nothing and thought I missed it. Wasn't until I actually sat down and read the issues a few weeks later I realized the character referred to didn't actually "appear" and I had to read some lines beforeI considered it could even technically class as a character.  
     
    I see it more as an extension of Morrison, similar to Jim Shooter and the Beyonder, where as where Shooter was obsessed with power. Morrison is about high concept. 
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    JediXMan

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    #12  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC: 
     
    But then who is the supreme being? Yes, I know the hand from CoIE was supposedly just something the Guardians put in place - but I doubt that. Three reasons:
     
    1. Somebody said "Let there be light" (creating the white entity)
    2. Spectre and Radiant reports to somebody, no? Is this the Presence or someone else? I thought the Presence stepped down?
    3. Even if it was retconned, high level beings saw the Anti-Monitor's attempt at omnipotence to be a threat. 
     
    For 3, one could view the hand as metaphorical, being that the "power of creation" could be transferred to another. Perhaps this is the 
    "Overmonitor" (actually, wasn't it called the Overvoid in the comic?) refers to. 
     
    I don't know. It's all theoretical. We don't really have a real answer.
     
    The difference is that the Beyonder wasn't the supreme being. The One Above All was. It was "decided" through debates on the Battle Forums that the Beyonder wasn't omnipotent due to the fact that he did lose some power when he fought Death - can't take away from infinity.
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    SC

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    #13  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan: I personally go with the Presence myself, for technical reasons. Its not really a character but a character with the will of the collective DC writing collaborative. Especially the more senior editors. With Supreme beings contradictions are allowed, because of the nature of words, definitions and meanings and what we are intended to get and not get.  
     
    At the time, Shooter wanted him to be greater than the Supreme being, TOAA had not been firmly established yet, and power was the only considered factor, not authority or importance of etc Shooter also presumably had more power within Marvel at the time, than Morrison with DC, a strange but important factor with these things oddly enough. 
     
    Battle Forums don't really hold up that well against real logic. Infinity, actually you kind of can. Its a concept not a number. You follow a circle around and around because its infinite, but you draw a smaller circle inside that circle, and you now have a smaller form of infinity. It takes less time to go on forever and ever and ever infinity. You can take away from Infinity, just what you end up with is just more infinity. Beyonder could be omnipotent anyway, since the term has a few applied meanings. 
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    JediXMan

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    #14  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC: 
     
    It's a complex concept. One that the human mind really can't fully comprehend.
     
    It's generally not a source of logic. But it depends on who you talk to. People like Morpheus, Static, etc. are rather logical in their thought processes. 
     
    You can't really take away from infinity. It's not a circle, it's all. Infinity is literally never ending. Omnipotence means there is no end to one's power. They have infinite power to draw on. They are never weak. There is nothing they cannot do.
     
    Again, another rather complex concept that can't fully be realized.
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    SC

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    #15  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan: Being logical doesn't equate to applying tested and or deconstructed logic however. People can use logic in a variety of contexts. Not that I don't doubt the ability if the people you mention, but just generally in Battle forums, things are skewered for a certain purpose, and its really rather fun and accessibility. Not answers that say you could risk your actual life on for example.  
     
    I just took away from infinity. Thats what infinity is. Its not even me doing that, its what the word has been exposed to be and defined as. Its the inverse of the Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel. I feel your applying VS Battle logic? Am I correct? You over simplify the definition of Omnipotence for example as well just then.  
      
    Depends really. Its all relative. 
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    JediXMan

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    #16  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC: 
     
    It's true. I'm just saying that it depends on the person.
     
    No, I am not applying VS battle logic. I use my own. 
     
    Omnipotence has to be simply defined, since an actual, detailed explanation is impossible. The concept is just too far beyond what the human mind can comprehend.
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    #17  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan said:
    " @SC:   It's true. I'm just saying that it depends on the person.  No, I am not applying VS battle logic. I use my own.   Omnipotence has to be simply defined, since an actual, detailed explanation is impossible. The concept is just too far beyond what the human mind can comprehend. "
    So you wish to apply it against my newest statements concerning how I insisted I still took away from infinity, its just what one understands is taken away and what is left being the issue. (if you think of infinity as a number, then indeed, the acting of doubling and or lessening leads one to make the logical assumption you can't take away from infinity) and this why if referenced or used as a number its known not as a real number - same applies with zero and now its meme) plus of course above.  
     
    You word that as if only absolute simplicity and complexity exist? Omnipotence can, be simply defined, it does not need to be, since milage may vary. Plus we can reference a dictionary to see this is not the case anyway. Again, depends. Remember the human mind is what named and detailed that concept. 
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    JediXMan

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    #18  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC: 
     
    It's a very broad concept that is open to interpretation. In your example, yes, that makes sense. My thought process is a bucket of water that never empties, that never needs filling, but water keeps pouring out of the top.
     
    What I mean is that omnipotence = all powerful, capable of doing anything and incapable of nothing. The human mind can define it, but the human mind can't get into the specifics of what it really means to be all powerful.
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    #19  Edited By SC  Moderator
    @JediXMan: Isn't that employing circular logic and avoiding the specialized argument? Thats not a new stance one can take and effectively grants a curious  and persistent five year old the ability to have as much authority as a trained theoretical physicist, you disagree? It is broad, hence its open to multiple interpretations, each with its own notes and understandings. In your example, you introduce certain aspects, the size of the bucket, and the rate of overflow. So in your example, the concept of lesser and greater infinity's exists.  
     
    Sure, buts its easy enough to deconstruct that as well, your sentence, the words you use, their definitions (its why a dictionary will have a few meanings for any one word usually, and to rebuild. Simplicity by relative means, could actually be more complicated, and so with a reference the unknowable can be known. And has been. 
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    #20  Edited By SC  Moderator

     
    @JediXMan:  I am gonna go sleep now man LOL, I have been up way, way too long. Laters, was really fun and enjoyable discussing this topic with you, take care! ^_^

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    JediXMan

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    #21  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
    @SC said:
    "  
    @JediXMan:  I am gonna go sleep now man LOL, I have been up way, way too long. Laters, was really fun and enjoyable discussing this topic with you, take care! ^_^ "
    Same. Good night.
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    OneAboveAll8-26

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    @jedixman and @sc: Two things, one, with infinite power, you could split your power in half because you can do anything, rules of math and logic don`t apply to you. And two, that white void, the Overvoid, could be the Beyond-Realm with the Beyonder in it before the accident that turned Owen Reece into Molecule Man happened.

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    #23 SC  Moderator

    @oneaboveall8-26: Sure… just the sentence you just used requires logic, and when people talk about things like infinity and power what is important is what they mean, and define such ideas as. Then the only (most) beings described as having infinite power are fictional (or asserted as such) and in fiction its not that there isn't logic or reason more so than you don't have to make sense, and things can contradict themselves. Basically statements about what you could do with supposed infinite power becomes meaningless and more akin to semantics and individuals understanding and ability to comprehend or convey ideas to others.

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    OneAboveAll8-26

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    @sc: True, but what do you think about the Overvoid = Beyond-Realm theory. I care for your opinion because your a moderator.

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    #25 SC  Moderator

    @oneaboveall8-26: Oh heh heh you should not put any extra stock in my opinion. Its a nice theory, just I can't help ignore the creative aspects involved with characters you know?

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    emmanuelalake

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    #26  Edited By emmanuelalake

    The Paper which DC Exist.. He is like DC Omniversal version of Eternity

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    emmanuelalake

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    Primal Monitor is still not above Presence

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