The Young Justice Titles, EPIC FAILURE in the Nu52

Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

Today we got the solicits for March 2013 and I mainly checked them on Newsarama's site and I was already aware of the recent cancellation of titles like Blue Beetle and Legion Lost, but it wasnt until today when I open this page and I realized something

THERE ARE ONLY 3 TITLES LEFT

and the titles in question are Teen Titans, Ravagers and Legion of Superheroes

Now Teen Titans by Scott Lodbel have gotten a very mixed reaction, some ppl like it some ppl dont but at least everyone including Lodbell agrees that the Culling Sucks.

Ravagers is a very recent title and is very uneven to gentle about it, its going for its second writer but the team itself feels off, like it doesnt even have a purpose or a coherent cast

and finally LSH, Once upon a time and by that I mean over 30 years ago even before the Modern Era of Comics started giving its first steps LSH was the most popular and best selling book of all, now i guess is here for a sense of legacy but i just dont find very good

What Happen?

Legion Lost, Static Shock, Blue Beetle and Hawk and Dove all titles that were cancelled from the Young Justice family, and in exchange they have only got 1 title, which means that without Ravagers the Family would consist of only 2 titles, i think the evidence is pretty obvious when you look at it, DC launch both the Superman and GL families with 4 titles each and still have the same titles, but in just a year and a half YJ have lost 2/3s of the original line up and left with half the titles, an utter failure compared every other family.

Also its good to mention that titles like Supergirl and Superboy even though they have teen superheroes they arent part of the Young Justice Group

in short, Young Justice is about young superheroes trying to have their adventures in DC, I will put emphasis in the idea of young heroes but not kids and really not teens, mostly all of of the heroes in this line up border on 18 and go up with very few exceptions, so one might argue that for example the Legion books ended up in YJ for the sole reason that there was no other place to put them in.

so what happen?

It is obvious that there was no big picture on this family, that DC really had no plans to making it work.

First of all Hawk and Dove

Hawk and Dove have absolutely nothing to do with teen heroes who are young and having adventures, it deals with the fallout of the Brightest Day stories, now i was a big fan of Brightest Day and I loved the Dove/Deadman relationship, but a part of that i never cared 2 cents about was Hawk. Hawk is Lame, uninteresting and unappealing, a dove Dove ongoing would had been better, and this book had the misfortune to be drawn by Rob Liefeld.

Had this been a reboot of Hawk and Dove, with them as real young heroes and an interesting setting and mythology and a good artist it might have had a chance, but that just didnt happen

and honestly the girl Hawk was way way more interesting

Legion Lost

I tried every single #1 issue and Legion Lost was by far the Worst, it completely failed to present a good hook for the story and it doesnt even plant the plot until issue 3 and by issue 5 Nicieza leaves the book and when that happen the book just drift, it doesnt really have a solid direction nor anything to do with LSH or the Young Justice Line

BLUE BEETLE

if Blue Beetle had a problem it was poor pacing, it spend 4 issues retelling his origin in a way that was less appealing and interesting than the last time that it was told, the book itself wasnt bad, but it wasnt very good

and Finally STATIC SHOCK

I already about Static in another blog but as i said it before Its the worst comic in the new 52 and nothing more than that

YOUNG?

I want to talk about only 1 title and the is the only "successful" title in the entire line, and that is in terms of sales

TEEN TITANS

Its entertaining and Fun and its new, it has some problems with pacing and characters and like i stated the entire Culling sucked on its entirety but you need to consider that with every single problem that this title presents its still On top of the last 100 chps of Teen Titans that where cripple by constant bad writers one after the other one not having an stable team and a none stop amount of editorial mandates.

but watching what happen on the last volume of Teen Titans I can see certain paterns with what happen with the entire line up of titles

THERE IS NO STRATEGY

and the reason why there is no strategy is cause as it respects on DC, the entire concept of "TEEN HERO" Is Dead

and it has been dead since the cancellation of the original Young Justice title by Peter David

There is an attitude in that book that has yet to be replicated by any other book in DC or in any other Teen book, It was fun it was smart and it was funny and the best part of all, they were real teens, they had real teen problems and attitudes and once Teen Titans started it just went downhill for mostly all of the characters

This being a joke over the fact that The Ray(years ago), Superboy and Impulse ongoing comics were cancelled while Robin was still going

Young Justice was about Teens who had superpowers, Teen Titans was about Superheroes who are in their teens, the difference lies in the fact that for Young Justice being Young was a compliment and a main focus as for Teen Titans wasnt even important

as soon as YJ turn into TT the main characters also known as the YJ4, Robin, Wonder Girl Superboy and Impulse, all changed to a completely different dirrection

Wonder girl change from this girl who was growing into her own woman into basically "Superboy's girl" and it never move from that

Impulse who was one of the funniest characters in DC turn into just another superhero with speed

and Superboy just got more mature but mostly cause he discover that he was half Luthor half superman

My point is that none of this characters had the same personality and in some cases like Wondergirl move to have No personality at all and its only until very recently that we had the chance to see some improvement but not that much and not like before.

What can save the line up?

Of course Teen Titans remains strong in sales but you can argue that is mainly for Tim Drake, chp 0 saw his origin and the next few issues will be tied up onto DotF, but can the book stand on its own and on its characters is a completely different matter

however one thing is certain is that TT is the center for Young Justice, from that the logical step would be to divert from other TT titles

of course a Red Robin book would automatically be a Batman book so the next logical choices would be

KID FLASH and WONDER GIRL

but any amount of ongoings wont change the fact that this books NEED to be about their heroes, it need to be about the fact that they are young, thats the sole reason why this genre even exist, and it cannot be constantly tieing into Flash, Wonder Woman or TT, lets see an example

almost a year ago DC released a Wonder Girl One-shot, written by then TT writer JT Krul, the one-shot completely revamp the relationship of Wondergirl and her mother, they have a huge discussion at the beginning then they make up for it at the end, its just an entirely artificial plot constructed with nothing, but the main meat of the book was the first appearance of Solstice who was going to join in the TT.

so basically, the story that was suppose to be about Wondergirl had nothing to do with her.

The lesson to learn from this is that, Wonder girl is actually an interesting character, so if DC wants to make a book about her, it should be about her

and thats the core problem with Young Justice, its not about what is suppose to be about

End of Blog Post

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#1 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe dc does not really need any young super heroes. Cyborg is already in the Justice League. Starfire is in Outlaws. The movies did not even find any use for Robin. The sidekicks concept is already obsolete. DC likes to milk Superman and Batman by having Supergirl, Superboy, Robin, etc. and these younger heroes are sometimes useful in cartoons so maybe it is ok to have some younger heroes in the comics also. My suggestions for the younger super heroes are :

1. Young Justice. dump all the dumb obsolete sidekicks here such as Robin, Superboy, etc. I also prefer to reboot Dick Grayson back to Robin since there is no reason to age Dick Grayson.

2. Ravagers. Put the other younger heroes here such as Bunker, Skitter, Beast Boy, Raven, Caitlin Fairchild, etc. Some of these older characters were younger by tradition so it is ok to maintain the tradition. It is also ok to move some of these to the adult groups such as what was done with Cyborg and Starfire, and get rid of Ravagers or convert Ravagers into a more adult group.

3. Legion has the boy names and girl names so can maintain tradition by letting the Legionnaires be younger. My suggestion is to reboot the whole Legion United Planets mythology into the 21st century so the Legion can be relevant again. Reboot the earthlings like Karate Kid, Colossal Boy, Sun Boy, etc. as 21st century earthlings in America to make them more interesting. Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, etc. can continue to be aliens of the United Planets in the 21st century.

#2 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: the thing is there haven't been much sales on young justice line before the reboot to begin with

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2010/2010-12.html

this is dec 2010,

They only had 4 young justice titles,

Teen Titans

Titans

Legion of Superheroes

Adventure Comics (not even sure if its a young justice title, but it stars LOSH so i guess so)

3-4 books are around the maximum the line can support. Even Red Robin would be considered batman family, not young justice family.

So in the new 52, theres those 3 titles, plus rhato which is basically a young justice book.

Sales on all the titles seemed to have improved overall.

I would say the main reason is that other than tim drake and conner, it seems like none of the other titans can actually support their own ongoing. Sure, they've been pushing BB like hell, but he just isn't someone who will have the ability to hold his solo ongoing for an extended period of time, i guess there just wasn't the fanbase.

#3 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

I believe dc does not really need any young super heroes. Cyborg is already in the Justice League. Starfire is in Outlaws. The movies did not even find any use for Robin. The sidekicks concept is already obsolete. DC likes to milk Superman and Batman by having Supergirl, Superboy, Robin, etc. and these younger heroes are sometimes useful in cartoons so maybe it is ok to have some younger heroes in the comics also. My suggestions for the younger super heroes are :

1. Young Justice. dump all the dumb obsolete sidekicks here such as Robin, Superboy, etc. I also prefer to reboot Dick Grayson back to Robin since there is no reason to age Dick Grayson.

2. Ravagers. Put the other younger heroes here such as Bunker, Skitter, Beast Boy, Raven, Caitlin Fairchild, etc. Some of these older characters were younger by tradition so it is ok to maintain the tradition. It is also ok to move some of these to the adult groups such as what was done with Cyborg and Starfire, and get rid of Ravagers or convert Ravagers into a more adult group.

3. Legion has the boy names and girl names so can maintain tradition by letting the Legionnaires be younger. My suggestion is to reboot the whole Legion United Planets mythology into the 21st century so the Legion can be relevant again. Reboot the earthlings like Karate Kid, Colossal Boy, Sun Boy, etc. as 21st century earthlings in America to make them more interesting. Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, etc. can continue to be aliens of the United Planets in the 21st century.

I dont think that is right, specially if you look over at Marvel with the things that they are doing with Ultimate Spider-Man and Wolverine & the X-men, obviously there is something good about the core idea of teen heroes but Dc hasnt been utilizing it right

even if the sidekicks are an obsolete concept it doesnt mean that there cannot be any good sidekicks or that teen heroes will need to be sidekicks

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad: the thing is there haven't been much sales on young justice line before the reboot to begin with

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2010/2010-12.html

this is dec 2010,

They only had 4 young justice titles,

Teen Titans

Titans

Legion of Superheroes

Adventure Comics (not even sure if its a young justice title, but it stars LOSH so i guess so)

3-4 books are around the maximum the line can support. Even Red Robin would be considered batman family, not young justice family.

So in the new 52, theres those 3 titles, plus rhato which is basically a young justice book.

Sales on all the titles seemed to have improved overall.

I would say the main reason is that other than tim drake and conner, it seems like none of the other titans can actually support their own ongoing. Sure, they've been pushing BB like hell, but he just isn't someone who will have the ability to hold his solo ongoing for an extended period of time, i guess there just wasn't the fanbase.

well before the relaunch Titans had nothing to do with Teens, it was Deathstroke's team, and Adventure actually had more to do with teens than LSH since it was the first years

I however do think that with the right push a TT can get a good ongoing JUST LIKE BEFORE

and thats why i mentioned Young Justice, Impulse had his own ongoing for a long time, Kid Flash could get one that last just as muhc if its done right

#4 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

My thoughts:

  • No mention of Superboy? Does he not count because he's part of the Super-family?
  • DC absolutely needs to put some top-tier talent on their teen books, absolutely. Teen superheroes are a big part of what makes superhero comics generally a thing. New Teen Titans was, at one time, selling about the same as X-Men. It's incredible to think of that now.
  • Teen heroes are hardly dead, even DC teen heroes, just because the comics are struggling. The Young Justice cartoon proves that these characters have legs.

They need to do a few things for the young heroes, IMO:

  • Launch a damn Cyborg solo already. He's supposed to be the biggest deal of the teen/late teen heroes and where is he? In JL and not much else.
  • Get some headliners on Teen Titans with the focus on character development, not flash and action. The TT book should be the core title from which the others grow, so it needs to be bar none excellent.
  • Send some big-name villains the kids way. Joker's return was huge in Batman, but could that have translated to the teen books instead, which his return going after Jason, Dick, and Tim instead? I think it could have worked.

Just my two cents.

#5 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

My thoughts:

  • No mention of Superboy? Does he not count because he's part of the Super-family?
  • DC absolutely needs to put some top-tier talent on their teen books, absolutely. Teen superheroes are a big part of what makes superhero comics generally a thing. New Teen Titans was, at one time, selling about the same as X-Men. It's incredible to think of that now.
  • Teen heroes are hardly dead, even DC teen heroes, just because the comics are struggling. The Young Justice cartoon proves that these characters have legs.

1- yeah, thats pretty much it, Superboy is a superman title not a Young Justice Title, it would be the same case for Supergirl and if DC ever releases a Red Robin title it would go into Batman books not YJ, which btw im against, Superboy should be more about YJ

2- yeah this books havent got a top tier writer since Johns wrote TT and that wasnt even that good

3- Which btw the Young Justice cartoon comic was cancelled this month so there goes that point

#6 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

Hah, you summed up my feelings concerning this line of books perfectly (and I was in shock too when I saw DC's solicits and the YJ line only had three books). Especially when it comes to Hank Hall, what a sh!t character. Even a plank of wood would be a better and more interesting Agent of Chaos than he is.

#7 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

3- Which btw the Young Justice cartoon comic was cancelled this month so there goes that point

Cancelled or delayed? My understanding is it was put on hold and that's all the information we have. Regardless, the enthusiasm for that show is what's important, not whether or not DC is making stupid decisions. DC will always be making at least some stupid decisions.

#8 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

They need to do a few things for the young heroes, IMO:
  • Launch a damn Cyborg solo already. He's supposed to be the biggest deal of the teen/late teen heroes and where is he? In JL and not much else.
  • Get some headliners on Teen Titans with the focus on character development, not flash and action. The TT book should be the core title from which the others grow, so it needs to be bar none excellent.
  • Send some big-name villains the kids way. Joker's return was huge in Batman, but could that have translated to the teen books instead, which his return going after Jason, Dick, and Tim instead? I think it could have worked.

Just my two cents.

sorry, i couldnt answer before

4- if Cyborg ever gets a book it will be on the Justice League family but there is a thing about this when it comes to the Perez Titans, DC seems to want to expand them by developing individually or in other teams but its just not working well

5- thats a given, i think the best issue of TT in the last what 10 years was this last Teen Titans #10, where nothing really happens really is just the entire team estranded in an island and they just talk and they get just great development from that, we need more like that

6- TT doesnt need big villains, Young Justice never had big villains on its own, most of the issues they didnt even had a villain

@fodigg said:

@arnoldoaad said:

3- Which btw the Young Justice cartoon comic was cancelled this month so there goes that point

Cancelled or delayed? My understanding is it was put on hold and that's all the information we have. Regardless, the enthusiasm for that show is what's important, not whether or not DC is making stupid decisions. DC will always be making at least some stupid decisions.

The TV show was delayed, but the comic about the show that has been going on for a while was just canned

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/13/young-justice-cancelled-in-february-the-comic-book-at-least/

@SmashBrawler said:

Hah, you summed up my feelings concerning this line of books perfectly (and I was in shock too when I saw DC's solicits and the YJ line only had three books). Especially when it comes to Hank Hall, what a sh!t character. Even a plank of wood would be a better and more interesting Agent of Chaos than he is.

Hawk is just so boring, the best that the character ever got was when he became evil but after that there was little to no reason to revive him on Brightest Day

#9 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@SmashBrawler said:

Hah, you summed up my feelings concerning this line of books perfectly (and I was in shock too when I saw DC's solicits and the YJ line only had three books). Especially when it comes to Hank Hall, what a sh!t character. Even a plank of wood would be a better and more interesting Agent of Chaos than he is.

Hawk is just so boring, the best that the character ever got was when he became evil but after that there was little to no reason to revive him on Brightest Day

I know, I know. It all comes down to Johns and DiDio's love for the Silver Age (which doesn't apply to Tempest, for some odd reason).

#10 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@fodigg said:

They need to do a few things for the young heroes, IMO:
  • Launch a damn Cyborg solo already. He's supposed to be the biggest deal of the teen/late teen heroes and where is he? In JL and not much else.
  • Get some headliners on Teen Titans with the focus on character development, not flash and action. The TT book should be the core title from which the others grow, so it needs to be bar none excellent.
  • Send some big-name villains the kids way. Joker's return was huge in Batman, but could that have translated to the teen books instead, which his return going after Jason, Dick, and Tim instead? I think it could have worked.

Just my two cents.

sorry, i couldnt answer before

4- if Cyborg ever gets a book it will be on the Justice League family but there is a thing about this when it comes to the Perez Titans, DC seems to want to expand them by developing individually or in other teams but its just not working well

5- thats a given, i think the best issue of TT in the last what 10 years was this last Teen Titans #10, where nothing really happens really is just the entire team estranded in an island and they just talk and they get just great development from that, we need more like that

6- TT doesnt need big villains, Young Justice never had big villains on its own, most of the issues they didnt even had a villain

Yeah, I think point 5 is the most important. What made the teen books (new teen titans, teen titans, young justice) good was the character development. I do think some cool villains mixed in couldn't hurt though.

@fodigg said:

@arnoldoaad said:

3- Which btw the Young Justice cartoon comic was cancelled this month so there goes that point

Cancelled or delayed? My understanding is it was put on hold and that's all the information we have. Regardless, the enthusiasm for that show is what's important, not whether or not DC is making stupid decisions. DC will always be making at least some stupid decisions.

The TV show was delayed, but the comic about the show that has been going on for a while was just canned

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/13/young-justice-cancelled-in-february-the-comic-book-at-least/

Ah, I misunderstood. Well that's disappointing but unsurprising. It's not like TV tie-in comics ever last very long.

#11 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@SmashBrawler said:

Hah, you summed up my feelings concerning this line of books perfectly (and I was in shock too when I saw DC's solicits and the YJ line only had three books). Especially when it comes to Hank Hall, what a sh!t character. Even a plank of wood would be a better and more interesting Agent of Chaos than he is.

Hawk is just so boring, the best that the character ever got was when he became evil but after that there was little to no reason to revive him on Brightest Day

I know, I know. It all comes down to Johns and DiDio's love for the Silver Age (which doesn't apply to Tempest, for some odd reason).

and also the best parts of BD, and Blackest Night when she appeared in, was Dove, Hawk just didnt matter in BD, and his part on his own story was boring, and it even got worst when liefeld took over cause he just wrote him as the same generic buffed hero he always write

#12 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

1. For the sidekicks or derivative characters like Superboy and Robin, can put these in Young Justice or Young Justice League similar to the cartoon.

2. Teen Titans or just Titans can be used for the more interesting younger super heroes like Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Caitlin Fairchild, etc.

#13 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

1. For the sidekicks or derivative characters like Superboy and Robin, can put these in Young Justice or Young Justice League similar to the cartoon.

2. Teen Titans or just Titans can be used for the more interesting younger super heroes like Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Caitlin Fairchild, etc.

That's actually a really interesting way to divide the teams up.

  • Young Justice - Sidekicks
  • Titans - Young, standalone heroes

It's really not that different from Young Avengers vs. Runaways, for example. Unfortunately, they didn't do that with the reboot and it'd be hard to swing it at this point.

#14 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

The young super heroes line can probably support about 4 titles : Young Justice for the sidekicks, Titans, maybe reboot Ravagers back to Gen 13, Legion rebooted to the 21st century. I think Harvest has been a disaster so just reboot Ravagers back to Gen 13.

#15 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

It is also possible to combine Teen Titans, Legion and Gen 13 under 1 group called Titans : Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Karate Kid, Colossal Boy, Caitlin Fairchild. If the Legion is rebooted into the 21st century, Legionnaires can be used in other groups like Titans, Justice League, Outlaws, etc.

#16 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

It is also possible to combine Teen Titans, Legion and Gen 13 under 1 group called Titans : Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Karate Kid, Colossal Boy, Caitlin Fairchild. If the Legion is rebooted into the 21st century, Legionnaires can be used in other groups like Titans, Justice League, Outlaws, etc.

that sounds like a terrible idea, there would be too many characters

but is not far from reality, I think the idea of DC with YJ was to try to make a X-Men kind of franchise

#17 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

To long to read, lol i jk

#18 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (8004 posts) - - Show Bio

They failed because there was too many titles and bad writers and creative

#19 Posted by CrimsonCake (2682 posts) - - Show Bio

I at least hope that they take the young Justice members that are currently in Limbo and incorporate them into the New 52

#20 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

Epic failure with all caps is an understatement. When BB is slashed in Februarry, all f the YJ books will be poorly-written team stuff, which sucks!!

#21 Posted by charlieboy (7095 posts) - - Show Bio

Hawk and Dove is actually a great concept when done right is a very entertaining read. Their last before the new 52 was excellent. I think the reason the new series did not work out was because of Liefeld.

#22 Edited by paulojr_mam (2 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Terry McGinnis in the new Batman Beyond comis is the way to go for DC for teens.

#23 Posted by Black_Claw (3086 posts) - - Show Bio

9 months later and the Ravagers has been axed. They really dropped the ball with this line of books.

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