..so ahead of the eagerly awaited Martian Manhunter comic, which features a tangle with Superman in Issue 2, I am wondering why he wouldn't beat superman. I mean he is nearly as strong physically, can go intangible, shapeshift and has awesome TP abilities. Surely he would absolutely trash the MOS if he really let rip? Even Superman himself said that he feared MM above all others...

With that said, there's the likelihood that John doesn't actually want to hurt Superman and considering how much collateral damage they would cause fighting all-out, is it possible they're both holding back? Not to mention, pretty sure he's facing a depowered Superman anyway, so he has to be especially careful here.

Because Superman is more popular

The only rational reason Manhunter would lose would really be from him allowing it - Superman would and should get his ass handed to him by Martian Manhunter.

This is the only correct answer. Superman is always going to be as strong as he needs to be to win, simply because he is Superman. Power wise MM should win, at the very least in his New 52 version.

It's just because DC likes to build up the image of Superman being unstoppable. He isn't really allowed lose to other superheroes except for Batman.

Its the same reason that Captain Atom and Captain Marvel/Billy Batson didn't , because superman is the 'teacher's pet' when it comes to high tier heroes.

Absolutely my friend! you hit the nail on the head there.

@canuckdad: If I were a writer who takes note of these things (say, like Kieron Gillen on Uber), I will have supes enemies or people on the same level go for the fast route to bring him down. Put on the energy drain to sap his solar cells and absorb/redirect kinetic energy, then break his neck while he is weak.

Injustice is a whole load of PIS, on superman's part.

Supes uses heat vision to ignite or explode something near Martian Manhunter.

I think calling him a favorite is a little disingenuous. Superman being the most powerful in the DC Universe isnt because the writerss play favorites but because that is a defining characteristic of Superman's character. He is the invincible alien sun god who can stand up to all challengers, in the same way that the Hulk is so defined by being the "strongest there is".

That being said I do think that DC is perhaps less willing then Marvel to have their strongest characters lose a battle; which I think is connected to how DC characters are written as mythological characters when compared with the more naturally flawed Marvel characters. For example Marvel has proven again andd again they are willing to have any number of people beat the piss out of the Hulk or Thor, only to have them come back all the stonger to win in the end; I dont see as much of that in DC writing.

As to the MOS vs MM question I think these are all good points and theMartian does have an impressive number of abilities, however none of them negate the invulnerability of Superman which is not an ability that the Martian is equal on. He can be intangible, but we have seen in the past that is not the same as being invulnerable as he can be effected by some types of energy attacks and while intangible he cannot attack Superman. Any time that he is solid enough to hit, he is sollid enough to be hit and even if he can hit almost as hard Superman he cant possibly take a hit as well. And then ultimatly any time that MM goes tangible all it takes is for Superman to glance in his direction and he is on fire. (There is also the shapeshifting thing, MM could crawl inside Superman as he did WW in Injustice but honestly I think SM could probably just spit him out, or fly into the sun or something.)

So ultimately I think there is no reason that MM shouldnt be able to take Superman in certain situations, in the end the winner is clear.

Thoughts?

@merihk43: Superman gets stomped by MMH in a real battle. Hell all he has to do is TP him

That really hit me when I first read Loeb's Superman/Batman where Supes had the advantage against Captain Atom and a team...

And yet your statement is the exact proof of him being the favored child. You clearly know nothing of early Supes and what he represented. He has been so thoroughly reinvented into the perfect hero that nobody remembers he was once incapable of flight, had no heat vision, and while super fast and strong, was tired after stopping that speeding locomotive.

He is now the favorite son of Krypton, not merely the man who survived an apocalypse. He brings peace and justice, and never truly fails. His heart is always pure even when he does wrong.

And this is why so many find him boring. No matter what Superman can never really escape his pleasantville character reworking, not without another fundamental change.

@bezza: Depends on writer but Martian Manhunter has title advantage.

@merihk43:

Superman being the most powerful in the DC Universe

Not even close, if we go by feats/scans average he is mid-level at best in the grand scale of the DC multiverse counting in cosmics and the like. Similar to batman he has plenty of 'hail mary' moments.

Writers sometimes have amateur tendencies when describing or referring to the previous stories when it comes to the power of higher beings, they only focus on the story at hand and ignore the world-building that comes with it.

Think about it, when it comes to that regard superman is just as bad as batman when it comes to jobbing others.

@namasthetu: You make a good point, and yes in reality he can be thought of as favored but that was some what to the side of what I was talking about. I am fully familiar with the origins and hummble beginnings of Smallville's favorite son going back to watching the New Adventures of Superman animated show when I was a kid while he was still leaping instead of flying and started with the full "faster then a speeding bullet" opening. Whhen you go that far back into DC's history you can certainly see how Superman becommes the favored hero, but that is every bit as much to do with that being what the fans demand as any actual favortism by the writers and editors. He was crafted into something else, something completely beyound the original vision of Superman and that larger ideal would go on to be the anchor of the DC Universe. Exactly as you said here the MoS became inseperable from the idea of the great defender of mankind that could not and would not ever give up. Im glad you bring up that so many people stuggle to find him interesting, it is something I discuss with my wife all the time; I have been introdducing her to the world of comics for years and naturally she was confused that I could still be such a big Superman fan when movie after movie came out that could barely be watched through let alone enjoyed. His power and invulnerabbility can make him boring because in movies you are faced with the options of a bigger baddie (unless its Doomsday or Darkseid its a snore), his origin story (classic but played out), swarm invasion (without other heroes its feels a lot like watching and exterminator deal with pests.) or most unforgivably to depower Superman (which you will note is then just a movie about a tall confused man more or less helpless in the world without his powers. What I dare to hope for is that DC's entry into the shared universe movie game we can see some more exciting storylines.

@kgb725: yes that could be true, and any magic user could tie him in knots with the wave of a hand, and any toddler could kick his ass by picking up a random green rock. Yes if TP powers work against superman or any superhero then they are entirely vulnerable to anyone with such powers - that is why most fiction in which telepathy plays a significant roll also adds in the suposition that powerful beings like superman have a natural or learned resistance to such attacks.

@vivide: Yes my apologies, I wasnt intending to say that Superman is the most powerful being in the DC universe because obviously that is not the case, nor is the Hulk the most powerful being in the Marvel universe but he is still the Strongest There Is. To clarify my statements are about the DC universe limited to earth unless otherwise indicated; the reason being is that once you add in the entire extended universe it changes the conversation.

@merihk43: no need to apologise, its the writers inconsistency that is at fault not you. They should keep a binder or a chronology of these 'feats/showings' to keep consistency.

In the case of the hulk that is mostly hype from his side, that and of the PR to promote the character. Even on earth superman has many equals and some superiors in regard of the strength, I am a fan of superman but different versions carry different strength.

@namasthetu: So would you like Superman post-Convergence to never revert to his pre-Convergence powers? I agree with what you've said anyway.

Superman is his main source of Choco's. Gotta keep your supplier happy, its just good business.

popularity has to be a major reason, as proved by the fact that the only member of the JL to have beaten Superman recently is the non super-powered but more popular Batman. Green Lantern's theoretically should be able to get the job done, if they were allowed to create constructs made of kryptonite, like they used to, but that isn't allowed now. Captain Atom should win, but is too minor a character. Shazam is surely the one guy who could beat superman, traditionally having similar strength, speed AND the advantage of being able to magic, which Superman is vulnerable to but nope, he isn't up to it. MM is the one guy who should get then job done, the most powerful telepath in the JL, he could reduce Superman to a blubbering jelly and yes he should be able to phase in and out using intangibility.

@mattydavehalpeo: @merihk43:

I enjoyed the first half of MoS. I thought it was kind of fun to address his origins as a sort of mystery. There was some interesting development with him trying to hide but as Lois said, he can't help himself when others are in danger. Unfortunately they ramped it up with a whole Jesus metaphor that never seemed to end. Granted I think Supes is best when he is getting beat down, but inspiring others to act, but there was way too much focus on him. And this is what tends to happen with the character time and again. His real superpower is his willingness to endanger himself against all odds and give those who have less power a chance to use their own to act. In MMO terms he's a tank. He is the vanguard; the bulwark; the shield that endures just long enough for others to act. This is why he pairs well with Batman who is the knife in the dark. In the old comics Supes rarely acted alone. Unfortunately this tends to mean that Supes feels underwhelming by himself and then has to take on characteristics of other people to end storylines. This happens with a lot of characters of course, but with Supes there's an underlying thread where all these things have to be superpowers. He has so many powers (not unlike MM either) that it becomes unwieldy and leads to a lot of silly moments that make no sense. And in the end he is the flagship of DC, so he must be the most perfect. I think DC constantly forgets that we don't like Supes for his powers, we like him because despite his power, he doesn't act as a god, he acts as a shield. Every now and then they remember, and that's when the best stories happen. If he isn't ever in danger though; how is there any drama (not to be confused with melodrama)? He needs to get laid low, and not for singular plots. He needs to feel fear, not every now and then, but enough that we feel it with him. If he is the most powerful in the DC universe by far, then we never feel this. He doesn't have to be super weak, he just has to be beatable at times and not through ultra-specific PIS kryptonite or magic spells.

EDIT: That was a bit of a rant. The short answer is that Superman is best when treated like a man who makes choices. Not as a Jesus metaphor, not as a god among men, just a man who has all the same needs we have, and wrestles with figuring out how to best be a shield and a man.

MM has been increased as a threat in New 52. It's hinted that he's stalemated the JL in the past and his TP is strong enough to demolish some of the well-known TP villains.

Well he honestly could.

xoxo, -Saint Sophie

I havent read the comic you are talking about and yes MM has more powers but his weakness is fire so it would be quite easy for Superman to create fire where as to beat Superman MM would need kryptonite, magic, use sunlight, or be stronger and beat him until Superman gives up.

He already beat Supes in Doomed and would of beat him in Trinity War if it wasn't for the Flash.

I think supes would win a majority of the time. I think SM is a little stronger but more resistant. I think MM biggest downfall is fire. It's so easy to come by. But overall I think SM being stonger, more invaunerable, and faster would give him a majority

Though it is a battle I'd like to see More. I think Kingdom Come is so enjoyable because Shazaam smacks SM around for awhile

Anyone have any good stories where SM gets beat up by a hero?

Popularity power.

@blackwind: but he's beat him twice already and is about to beat him for a third time in his own book.

Unless Superman manages to set J'onn on fire, J'onn would totally dominate.

Ad why did Superman become more powerful than the version you speak of?

Because a little boy and his magic word was handing him his lunch on the comic book stands. Captain Marvel would do a great feat (flight) and then Superman would and vice versa. The ultimate 1 - up match, its why DC Comic always portray CM as his match...almost.

The current Story arc where Superman seems more human (feeling temperature change, being tired) is just a close rip off of Black Adam: Dark Ages or even better...shazam clone: MiracleMan. Human and demigod like.

Kingdom Come Kal said it best of Captain Marvel:

"you're human and a godling, more than anyone else you know what it is to live in both worlds"

Its CM weakness but it also allow for better storytelling.

Manhunter weakness of fire will always be his downfall in a Superman fight.

White Martians vs Justice League proved that and it was multiple martians.

Martian Manhunter solos the JL

Except for BATMAN.

@username12345 said:

There's always one.