Honestly as a African-American and lifelong comic book fan, I rather have an already Black character get a major push as opposed to changing an already establish character to bring forth racial equality. True we need a balance in superheroes but don`t change anyone`s race to accomplished that. Elevate an black character who been on the B-Team for years up to the A-Team. 10 years ago most people never Knew who Falcon was but now he`s about to become a household name or look at the push Cyborg has receive to where he on the Main Team. Now that's what I think we need more, We shouldn`t have to change anyone.

@bear1318:

Agree. Re-writing an established Caucasian character to be black/Hispanic/Asian or gay is not the same as simply creating and supporting a character originally intended to fill the role. Honestly, it is a slap in the face that says DC is patronizing that section of its audience by throwing them a bone.

And sadly, that is made more apparent with no substantial follow through. Putting diversity on top of a big name for a moment is insulting.

Just as insulting is giving Cyborg a "big" role in Justice League by simply putting him on the team, but failing to explore and develop one of the only characters in the team book who has no other outlet for such growth. But hey, at least the black guy is shown amongst the big league players. That should make the Blacks happy. Just seeing him should be enough.

@sinisteri: I've been waiting for three years for DC to do something interesting with Cyborg and so far they've done nothing to back up their big talk on how "his time has come". The biggest problem with DC giving Cyborg the push that they did is that their actions never spoke louder than their words. My hope in this character has started to resurface after the climax of trinity war, but I'm not holding my breath.

Black Panther & Cyborg are waiting for their moment.

@bear1318: Very refreshing to hear that from someone who's not white. That's how I've always felt. Whatever the non-straight-&-white group is, it seems like it would be an insult that group. Just slapping on a race or a sexual-orientation on a character for the sake of putting the spotlight in that group, rather than developing a quality character who can become popular on their own merits (with being part of said-group being part of their identity). It's like when Andrew Garfield said he thought they should make Spiderman gay - that'd be a slap in the face to gay people. There's many good non-white and/or non-straight characters that are quality characters - why are they not getting t heir due?

@lightsout: For the record, Andrew was clearly joking when he said that. And your right about there being other minority characters that could easily be A Listers (Static and Jaime Reyes being shining examples).

i agree.

@black_claw: Really? Been a while since I read that but I thought he was serious (especially since he already had someone in mind to be Spidey's love interest -- and because it's not crazy for people to be making this PC-for-the-sake-of-PC guffaw).

@lightsout: No it was really obvious he was just fooling around in that interview. Fans just blew things out of proportion.

@black_claw: I googled it after posting, and he must have fooled the reporters too because it was reported as if he was suggesting they should do that. (Or at least that he'd be cool with that change).

This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing, not only because changing a character's race/sexuality is basically change for the sake of change, but because they change those characters to try to be more diverse but they rarely if ever give actual minority characters a push, sure they could've given an already gay character a bigger push instead of just changing Alan Scott's sexuality, but a new or an unpopular old gay character won't sell as much as a Green Lantern, and that just makes it even more offensive, they really don't give a crap about diversity, at best they just feel pressured by society so they have to act politically correct, and at worst they just make the changes to get more money or for pitty shock value. I'm a latino, and it's sad to think that there's more chances of a pre-established character to get a race swaped than to a writer to come up with a new latin hero, and it's even sadder to think that there's basically 2 somewhat popular latin characters.

Btw @lightsout: it actally makes even more sense that it's a joke when you consider the guy he casted, I mean, isn't it little too big of a coincidence that he chose the guy who just recently had a big scandle about him and The Human Torch?

@lightsout: Like I said, people overreacted and blew things out of proportion.

@strangeman: I never heard of such scandal, lol. Unless it's on the front-page of Yahoo or here, I don't get much comic-world news.

Shouldve put this on general discussion but I feel the same way I would much rather see cyborg come through as a character and gain popularity than have some random character be flipped and turned inside out just to "satisfy" a minority groupand then not do anything about it after initially announcing it

Cyborg has not been written well since Perez/Wolfman. Sadly, same could be said for all the New Teen Titans.

I've read many arguments on this matter, and what it usually boils down to is that no one is ever happy.

Some things I can think of off-hand is that:

1. These companies are typically dominated by heterosexual white male nerds that generally have a bad track record with writing non-heterosexual white male characters that meets the standards of their ethnic, female, and homosexual fans.

2. It's hard to establish "new" characters, publishers go out of a limb with them and that's why they typically stick with legacy and distaff characters. Characters like Batman are 60 year old, well-established household names that can sell pretty much anything just by having them associated with the book... hell, they could just be on the cover and they'll sell more copies.

3. Most comicbook fans are typically heterosexual white male nerds that have little comprehension or interest in ethnic or homosexual characters... unless they're female, then it kinda becomes gratuitous. Like notice that the number of Asian and Africna-American female X-Men are disproportionate to the number of Asian and African-American male X-Men characters. Notice that DC really tried to push Jaime Reyes in the comics and the animated Young Justice, but he just couldn't develop a large enough fanbase to support himself.

Personally I don't see a problem with making a character another race if done well... hell, Nick Fury probably became more popular when they made him black. I liked Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin, and I'll probably like Jamie Foxx as Electro too. No problem with it. A part of me does feel like it's cheap to make a long-time straight character gay unless it was purposely done to be a shocker or well-written.

People have to realize that most of these characters were created in very different times. These comicbook industries try to stay modern and make changes that are relevant to the time. In a way, I think black and homosexual fans should be happy they are even trying, and with time they'll probably smooth out the rough edges. Look at Luke Cage, started off as a pretty stereotypical black guy of the times, but has evolved over the years, becoming a popular established character that broke away from his stereotypical 70's black portrayal. Everything starts somewhere.

That's just my opinion, take it how you will.

I do though have other concerns about non-white and homosexual characters in comics.

Its ashame that DC doesnt have a popular black women superhero.... Hell storm is arguably one of Marvels best characters. I also think DC needs more black and hispanic heroes.

@knightfall225: Well they have Vixen. But she's sadly a B Lister. I have researched this character and she's fairly interesting. I think she would have been a better choice for a founder of the DCnU Justice League instead of Cyborg.

In reality. businesses don't want blacks being pushed or becoming a face of an event.

Which is why we'll never get a black superhero movie other than hancock. And i'm not confirming Black panther yet until i see a trailer or footage. Plus if his movie takes place in wakanda i guarantee you they will add some light skin people to the movie which will make no sense.

cyborg is cool but they rather do 20 batman movies before a cyborg or a Stewart movie.

Basically only the villains or supporting characters are allowed to be changed to black, but make a black THOR, a black batman and we'd go crazy.

only saying...

Well, a black thor would be weird, since he is a norse god, so he has a strong geographical denotation. As far as the black batman goes, I don't think I'd have a problem as long as there is a reason. They made Kingpin black in DD because Duncan was perfect for it. If they cast a black batman but he's like the best batman ever, I don't see a problem.

Some people associate wealth and prestige within the family with being caucasian, though, so maybe it would be hard because of stereotyping.

@thorson: Sad but true, especially the part about Wakanda.

Not sure if there has ever been a demand or request to make over or paint an established character to make that character black, Hispanic, Asian, gay, mender different, etc.

Hope that clears up the confusion on making a Norse god African when that situation would better be addressed by writing and giving an title to an African god. That would be more appropriate and respectable.

Making GL gay, the Atom female or just putting Cyborg on the JLA is more like throwing the people a crum or doing just enough to say a disingenuous effort was made.

Great effort doesn't seem forced. Obsidian being openly gay with a personal life reflecting this aspect with a love interest and an accepting family including a high profile parent in GL for years compared to erasing him and making his father gay. The new interpretation is definitely forced on a character with a decades long established identity.

It is not impossible for an individual thought to be straight to come out as gay later, and there is a respectful way to handle that. Coming out as black is a whole other story, but also would need to be handled respectfully(i.e. A really light skinned black could appear and pass then self off as white).

Batwoman was not as well established, and was handled well. She had been mostly MIA since before 1985 Crisis. And the loss to Batman's love life was almost none.

Firestorm is another example of a true, sincere attempt to produce a black hero. Other people being Firestorm was clearly established for decades, so a black host was not out of left field.

There shouldn't be a problem with readers wanting intelligent and respectful representations of diversity.

@matteopg:

Yes .You and I would not have a problem, but lets be real. the mainstream audience would feel offended if spider-man became black or wolverine became a mexican.

People still till this day are not happy with heimdall being black or kingpin being black. yes i do agree both have done a good job, but there will always be people who will display arrogance towards a colour change.

@thorson: yes, you are absolutely right. What reasonable people think and what the general public thinks are two different things completely.

@thorson I think you got it right its the business side of it that keeps, not just comics but movies and TV in general, white. I mean its a fact that most comic, movie and TV writers are straight white males but they are writers I am sure they would love to write all kinds of "diverse" character's and stories. I wish i was a writer i would write a story about a hispanic, black ect. character they decided to fight crime after not just personal tragedy (like these white heroes are inspired by) but the tragedy of living in poorer, corrupt neighborhoods, like blacks and hispanics do in America. I mean fighting for the people you live with in YOUR neighborhood instead of Bruce Wayne in his ivory tower on the outskirts of town. Just add up some batman and blaxploitation dont know why no one has tried it yet besides the whole cold, boring, cowardly business side of the equation. @matteopg Making character's black is diversity for the sake of diversity. Now writing black characters... unfortunately im not optimistic today people, perhaps want, but definitely are given characters they relate to because "they are them" i.e. children watch shows about children, white women watch shows about white women ect. ect.

@vance_astro: Black Panther & Cyborg are waiting for their moment.

As is Steel. So much potential there, just sitting on the shelf......

@heraldofganthet: Steel had his moment. And the studio execs botched it. Horribly.

@black_claw It came out the same year as Batman and Robin. If it came out the same year as Iron Man i could give you botched horribly but for 97' it was pretty par for the course caaaaaan you dig it? @heraldofganthet I thought Grant Morrison's Steel from action comics was great hopefully they will put John Henry Irons in the Batman/Superman movie

@black_claw: Steel had his moment. And the studio execs botched it. Horribly.

Agreed. I haven't used a single product Shaquille O' Neil has endorsed since some a$$hole decided he could play a PhD in Engineering and Temporal Mechanics. I mean, WTF?!? Pissed me off too, because I used to love using Gold Bond powder before they started using that semi-literate, free throw missing, adulterer as a pitch man. That said, the Punisher got two do overs after Dolph Lundgren's embarrassing performance back in the 80's, Captain America got a do over (and an upcoming sequel!) from his see-through shield crappy movie from the same era. The first Hulk movie, well, the less said about that the better. But even HE got a box office do over! Steel needs his box office mulligan. With either Idris Elba, Henry Simmons, or Shemar Moore at the helm.

@cuddlebear: I thought Grant Morrison's Steel from action comics was great hopefully they will put John Henry Irons in the Batman/Superman movie

Agreed. With *spoiler alert for those who haven't seen "Man of Steel"*Dr. Emil Hamilton lost in the Phantom Zone, Superman will need a tech expert to fill that void. Your thought was the exact thought running through my head the split second after that scene aired on screen.

Good call!

@heraldofganthet said:

I'm sorry. I'm with you on Black Panther & Cyborg but Steel is a god awful character.

@vance_astro: I'm sorry. I'm with you on Black Panther & Cyborg but Steel is a god awful character.

I understand. But think of it this way: This is a guy from the projects of Washington DC who lost his parents young to violence. Like Batman. Having family from there myself, I can honestly say that this is a feat in itself. He had to stay with his grandma and (unlike most other comic geniuses) excelled at both advanced physics and athletics. Got a free ride to the University of Michigan (where he met his roommate, future Green Lantern Guy Gardner) for his undergraduate degree before going on to Yale to receive his PhD's. After that, he becomes a multi-millionaire (around 10-15 mil) working as a Weapons Developer for AmerTech where he develops among other things the BG-60 "Toastmaster" Plasma Cannons and meets his fellow scientist and love interest (and future Queenpin) Angora Lapin a.k.a. "White Rabbit" who steals his designs after he discovers AmerTech's corruption in selling his weapons to terrorist organizations and crimelords.

He escaped with his money and the plans for his weapons, and placed himself in his own version of Witness Protection in Metropolis where while pretending to be a common laborer and construction worker, he slipped off a girder where Superman saved his life. Anyway, White Rabbit copied his Toastmaster designs and began selling them to gangbangers. Not only that, but AmerTech saw fit to chase after and neutralize their "investment" and attacked his family to draw him out of hiding. Not terribly unlike what Jason Bourne had to endure, by the way.

This is actually an abbreviated origin story as I've left out a great number of details. But this guy is a genius and a resourceful street fighter. He's one of the most trusted heroes in the DCU (pre-Flashpoint anyway). And as a man of principle and unshakable moral fiber, he's been a valued asset to not only Superman, but the entire JLA during Morrison's run.

There's a lot of material here, mon ami. Just waiting for a writer as talented as either Grant Morrison or Mark Schultz (who really showcased his inventive genius in the "Superman: The Man of Steel" series). Goyer and/or Snyder could do a lot with a guy this fertile and multifaceted. He's from the hood, but he's got Ivy League degrees. Making deadly weapons is second nature for him, but at his core, he's a man of peace. His ex- girlfriend is using his weapons to enrich herself despite the unbelievable collateral damage they cause. He'd hide forever from AmerTech and they'd never find him, but attack his family, and he'll make you pay. It could work.

Okay. Rant over. What do you think of my analysis, my Modular friend?

@heraldofganthet said:

Steel is a style of character that DC could really run with but I think they should push Cyborg. I think that would make more sense just because they rearranged the sun, moon & stars to make him a founding member of the Justice League. There shouldn't be a member of that team that can't stand alone. If DC can make me like character I previously thought were incredibly lame like Green Arrow & Aquaman, they could do something with Cyborg.

i still think falcon is lame , good post though.

@vance_astro: Steel is a style of character that DC could really run with but I think they should push Cyborg. I think that would make more sense just because they rearranged the sun, moon & stars to make him a founding member of the Justice League. There shouldn't be a member of that team that can't stand alone. If DC can make me like character I previously thought were incredibly lame like Green Arrow & Aquaman, they could do something with Cyborg.

I'll meet you halfway on this. I've been a Titans fan since the Reagan administration. So I like Cyborg. Always have. AS. A.TITAN. You are absolutely right that DC twisted itself into knots to make him a founding member of the JLA in their new pet universe the "New 52". But my grievance with that editorial decision is the fact that Steel was actually on the JLA Pre-Flashpointfor well over 80% of the Grant Morrison run on the title and a lot of the Hitch run. Loved those runs. And I loved the "Man of Steel" book before it got cancelled. They were great and to me, they fleshed out more of his (Steel's) character development.

Cyborg is cool. But he really should be providing muscle and logistical support to Raven and the crew over at Titans Tower. Especially since Steel actually has tenure on the JLA. This is just one more on a list of reasons why I haven't read a single issue of the New 52 and hope it ends up like "Heroes Reborn" as basically a massive dream sequence.

Do you see what I'm saying, or am I failing miserably to convey my love, appreciation, and anticipation for what could be with the character?

Want some more Blade

@heraldofganthet: i feel ya but shaq or no shaq you MUST watch Blue Chips!

@heraldofganthet said:

I understand what you're saying, I just don't know if Steel has many personal attributes that are unique to him. You know what I mean? Like if you look at the JLA, pretty much every member even if they have SOME similar powers has their own niche or special attribute that makes them stand out. You know what I mean. I think Steel could be alot more popular than he is currently but I think there's a ceiling. I think people will just look at him and go "Black guy wearing armor? That's a War Machine rip-off". That's what I'm starting to notice about comic readers, they are very narrow minded (not talking about you or I but in general). That's why a character like Aquaman needed a rebooted universe for some validation because people still look at Aquaman and go "He's useless, all he does is talk to fish".

@cuddlebear:i feel ya but shaq or no shaq you MUST watch Blue Chips!

You see, this is a sticking point for me. Because I like Nick Nolte, but I don't think I can reconcile the damage Shaq did to Steel's image in the eyes of comic fandom at large. It's like this: Daredevil had over 40 years of continuity, guest appearances in other books, crossovers, an established fanbase, and appearances on animated series' before Ben Afleck stunk up the place in his turd of a rendition of the character. But Steel at the time of his film was not yet even 10 years old. He was still a relatively unknown character to those who didn't read the "Reign of the Superman" storyline. So when that 7 foot monosyllabic, uncoordinated, womanizer played him in that box office disaster, I think it scarred the character in the eyes of pop culture and his fanbase was unfortunately lessened compared to what it could have initially been. Or could be in the future. that's why I think that a re-do is in order, with a competent (read: ACTUAL) actor who can speak in complete sentences and successfully portray a man of his intellect. Like Idris Elba, Henry Simmons (of "NYPD Blue" fame), or Shemar Moore who's been kicking ass on "Criminal Minds" all these years.

@vance_astro: I understand what you're saying, I just don't know if Steel has many personal attributes that are unique to him. You know what I mean? Like if you look at the JLA, pretty much every member even if they have SOME similar powers has their own niche or special attribute that makes them stand out. You know what I mean. I think Steel could be alot more popular than he is currently but I think there's a ceiling. I think people will just look at him and go "Black guy wearing armor? That's a War Machine rip-off". That's what I'm starting to notice about comic readers, they are very narrow minded (not talking about you or I but in general). That's why a character like Aquaman needed a rebooted universe for some validation because people still look at Aquaman and go "He's useless, all he does is talk to fish".

I do understand the positive and negative impact pop culture opinion can have on a property. I also remember back when I was in middle school and Marvel back then was talking about casting Tom Cruise as Tony Stark, execs were saying they weren't sure Iron Man was a big enough draw to make them enough money to justify the special effects budget it would take to make it. Well, 20 years and 4 Iron Man movies later (because lets not fool ourselves, while Avengers was a good movie ,it should have been called "Iron Man and His Amazing Friends". Just sayin..) we see how wrong they were. If nothing more than by box office receipts. A well written, properly acted, film about Steel with an established actor of known skill would do wonders for his image both inside and outside of the comic fan world. Hell, Ghostface Killa from the Wu-Tang Clan was calling himself "Tony Starks" before he ever got a movie. They could have a sub plot be about his relationship with his niece Natasha Irons, a bright but sassy girl for whom he eventually builds her own suit of armor that can grow to "Gundam" proportions. But they can save her suit of Armor for the sequel. He's a lovable, relatable character. A guy who came up from nothing to being a multi-millionaire without Affirmative Action. Stark inherited his money, and he's kind of a douche. John would do anything for his family, including taking in his teenage niece after his brother and his sister-in-law were murdered. Stark cares about Pepper, but that's because she's "whetting his whistle". Ahem... I'm not trying to run down Iron Man, but instead trying to highlight the fact that they are two completely different characters.

The only real similarity between them is that they are both great engineers who wear powered exo-skeletons in lieu of a Metagene. A well written story arc in the comics and/or new movie with the current DC Movieverse team(s) could do for Steel what the "Secret Invasion" did for Hank Pym: Give an established and extremely intelligent character who'd been sitting on the shelf for way too long a much needed shot in the arm and the exposure that comes with it.

What do you think? Am I barking up the wrong tree with my perspective, or am I on to something?

DC needs more static

@cuddlebear: oh, I see, no... I think you are takling about something much more profound than me. I was just talking about casting comic book characters in movies. I absolutely don't get the move of changing a character's sexuality or skin color in comic books because, let's face it, there's never a good reason to if not for the gimmick itself.

I was just saying that when you're casting for certain particular roles, you might find yourself (and by you I mean the casting people) amazed by the performance of a certain actor and just say "It's him, I don't care if the ethnicity doesn't match". That's what I imagined happened with the Kingpin and Heimdall, for example.

@bear1318:

What do you think, sir? Am I on to something?

By the way, "Welcome to the 'Vine"!

@heraldofganthet:

You are on to something here, In fact I love how use Iron Man as a prime example. Many People forgets he was not so popular long ago. That's why I think Falcon has a chance to become more popular, especially if the writers handle him correctly. I`d really love to see marvel invest more into him and caps team up series. Them maybe a team up movie, really I rather have this than to change someones race.

@bear1318:

I'm glad you see what I see. If a character like Dan (from the Street Fighter Universe) can start off as an absolute joke character, but be actually kind of decent in Street Fighter 4 (with a dedicated player controlling him), then a character like Steel (who wasn't ever designed to be mocked or ridiculed) should be further built upon.

The work of Grant Morrison, Bryan Hitch, Mark Schultz, and others have definitively shown us how resourceful, brilliant, and adaptable a character he is. That and he's a great father figure to his niece who's gifted in her own right. I think that the Goyer/Snyder team could effortlessly plug him in in the place of the lost to our reality Dr. Emil Hamilton as his go to tech advisor within the DC Movieverse. Except Dr. Irons knows how to fight *hehehe*!

If somewhere, just one little black boy sees Black Lightning, or Steel, or Black Panther, or Cyborg, or Icon, or Luke Cage and believes that they can make something of themselves without being an athlete, rapper, or a criminal, then a diversity push has done its job.

Black Panther is going to get his shot soon! He's the first and best black hero!

@daredevil21134: yes, Blade.

Don't get me wrong, I love Storm but, I think we need more strong and prominent black female heroes like her. I think DC's Vixen could be on Storms level but, she isn't seen enough and needs more character development. Hopefully vixen will have a bigger role in the New 52.