I Surrender

#1 Edited by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

I had a thought last night. An epiphany if you will. I realized that just constantly raging and constantly finding fault with the New 52 is a waste of time. Other people share my opinions and it won't be long before DC either undoes it completely, or at the very least does some other big event to make things more like they were before. As such, I've decided to just accept it for the time being. I'm still mad about it, but I'm gonna be a man and suck it up........... For now -_-

So DC here's my white flag

#2 Posted by darkman61288 (727 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkman61288: I just got tired of constantly hating it. It was eating me up.

#4 Posted by darkman61288 (727 posts) - - Show Bio

@smart_dork_dude: I hate it too. The emo Superman, his romance with WW, the loss of Wally West Donna troy. It's prohibition against marriage. all of it and I still buy it.

#5 Posted by Fallschirmjager (16250 posts) - - Show Bio

Life is too short for hate. It consumes too much energy.

Just read what you like and don't read what you don't like. Simple :)

#6 Posted by CrazyScarecrow (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

I stopped hating it around sometime in July and August. I figured I'd figure that in my mind Martian Manhunter will always be a founding member of the JLA so my anger toward Cyborg wasn't going to change it. Hahaha I could've figured that out the moment I heard about that change.

#7 Posted by The_Red_Viper (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

I never hated the New 52. Sure it's not perfect but nothing is supposed to be perfect. Nothing CAN be perfect. I find it very enjoyable, especially as a relatively new reader (started a year or so).

#8 Posted by Cap10nate (2205 posts) - - Show Bio

@smart_dork_dude: I have replaced almost all my DC titles with Valiant books and am loving it. The ones I still pull are Swamp Thing and Batman. Might drop one of them once Unity is released or drop both to pick up a new Image book as well. I am debating between catching up with Lazarus or waiting for Velvet to start.

#9 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

Join the club my friend.

Although, I have taken it a few steps further, and just stopped reading DC altogether. Garbage publishing house, I swear. Bad ideas all around.

#10 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

@cap10nate: For me it's been Dynamite(Black Bat, The Shadow, and Red Sonja) and IDW(Judge Dredd, Star Trek, MLP:FIM and don't you dare judge me, and TMNT)

#11 Edited by Saint_Wildcard (9958 posts) - - Show Bio

harry potter eye rolling gif

ughh this post

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#12 Posted by Lvenger (19052 posts) - - Show Bio

Life is too short for hate. It consumes too much energy.

Just read what you like and don't read what you don't like. Simple :)

My attitude to the New 52 and at least attempted to implement in life generally.

#13 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

There are always some who say the best thing to do is grin and bear it.

I have a friend who had a horrible experience at a sandwich shop. A reluctant worker didn't wash their hands fresh from a floor mopping, clumsily put on some gloves and made a sandwich. The manager refused to believe his worker did such a thing and defended his worker to my friend's horror.

My friend could have surrendered to horrible service and a poorly manufactured product. Other patrons who had no clue of the dirty work that went into their sandwiches may enjoy them and wonder what that something extra in the taste is. That does not make it ok or acceptable.

I love Catwoman, but I refuse to watch the Halle Berry movie. It had nothing to do with the Catwoman story to which I'm invested and it was a mess resulting from someone's idea of a movie about a new character with a fan followed, established name. May be where new 52 got the idea.

The sandwich does not have to be bought or the movie watched to know it is not good quality. There argument is not that DC is not perfect, but there is a problem with the cohesiveness and integrity of the overall universe. It is not solved simply by having different characters appear together in one story and fawn over or hate each other with no backstory or substance.

My friend didn't surrender to horrible service. I did not surrender to a really bad movie. Some say grin and bear it. I say if you don't ever ask for better, then you promote the worse.

#14 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: or maybe you don't like it and for some reason you convinced yourself that that is the absolute truth? Or maybe likes and dislikes are subjective?

And maybe there's a little bit too much drama around some superhero comic books? If you don like them, don't read them, but don't act like it's this big social protest. You are just not reading something that you don't like. Big deal.

#15 Posted by darknightspideyfanboy (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: or just vote with your wallet it the only thing this big company listen to anyway


#16 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg:

Do you feel this way about all message boards and opinions you do not like?

I can disagree with someone's opinion, and we all have one.

Every opposing opinion and feeling drama? But calling it that is a wonderful way to "Shut up and take it"

Not surrendering to that either.

#17 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, if you still really don't like what they're doing, don't buy it. Any of it. That's the only way to send a message because more nuanced messages aren't going to be picked up by their polling.

That said, there's a difference between walking away from something because you don't like it and staying emotionally invested in something you hate. Actively hating something is emotionally corrosive and accomplishes nothing. So kudos on getting over that.

#18 Posted by kgb725 (6440 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the hate flow through you

#19 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

I am not buying things I do not like that was part of the point of my reply-- the sandwich was not bought and Catwoman was not watched.

Emotional investment is up to each individual. And I have not waited over 20 years if reading for someone to come along to tell me how to feel/buy comics. Is it a rule that if something said isn't drenched in love or admiration, that it shouldn't be said? Opinions and emotions are positive and negative.

Attacking the speaker means deterring from a point where there is little to no ground. I was not attacking the speaker. I was offering a counter point.

If you know you have gold, no one can make you think its imitation... unless you suspected it was from the start.

#20 Edited by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: well, if you read your post is pretty dramatic, since we are talking about a company that sells comic books. You were definitive in saying that people who claim that, for example, the new 52 is fine, are just letting DC skate along in their horridly low standard. You said that you stopping reading them is like a big strong message of not surrendering. I mean, do you mean to tell me that you don't think you were being a little bit overdramatic?

If you notice, I never said anything about comments like:

@fallschirmjager said:

Life is too short for hate. It consumes too much energy.

Just read what you like and don't read what you don't like. Simple :)

#17 Posted by fodigg (5191 posts) - 19 minutes, 53 seconds ago - Show Bio

Well, if you still really don't like what they're doing, don't buy it. Any of it. That's the only way to send a message because more nuanced messages aren't going to be picked up by their polling.

That said, there's a difference between walking away from something because you don't like it and staying emotionally invested in something you hate. Actively hating something is emotionally corrosive and accomplishes nothing. So kudos on getting over that.

Because they are light hearted, relativistic and don't go on in a big rant about the social injustice that is the new 52.

I don't care about differing opinions. But the way you voiced yours made it seem just like the opposite: it didn't read like a simple opinion, but a crusade that you embarked upon, while we ignorant people are left reading comics that are like a sandwich dropped on the floor.

Of course, maybe I just read your phrasing wrong. But before saying that I don't tolerate different opinions, try and read carefully what I'm saying.

Maybe I misunderstood the phrases: "My friend didn't surrender to horrible service" and "if you don't ever ask for better, then you promote the worse". They looked a little absolute and judgemental. Not once have I read the words "opinion" or "I think" in your post. Not even the words "I don't like". Just a lot of "it is".

That is the sole reason why I tried to speak up and say that maybe, the new 52 isn't so bad if people are still buying and enjoying the stories. I repeat: only because you seemd judgemental and didn't leave room for the other possibility; even more, you made it sound like you were doing some kind of big gesture that nobody else would ever dare to try.

If you are saying that you don't like the new 52, so you don't read it, but you understand that other people enjoy it... well, that's a different story. In that case I apologize and admit that I may have read too much into your post because of the way it was phrased. In that case, it's my bad. No harm done.

#21 Edited by Tamal_Kundu (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Being a new reader, I suppose I understand the validity of the reboot, it gave me the entrance I needed into the world of continuity comics of DC. Also I'm immensely thankful for it. I loved some of the products (Batman, Wonder Woman, JLD, JLA, JL (in some parts), Batgirl, Batman INC, Batman & Robin, Detective Comics, Superman Unchained, The Flash, Smallville, Superman / Batman, The Beyond Universe etc), hated many of it (Superman, Action Comics, Catwoman, Teen Titans, SM/WW etc). I just don't buy the things I dislike. It's that simple, really.

#22 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Get your points.

Opinions are by nature absolute because they belong to the person casting it. Saying "don't take this the wrong way" or "mine isn't the only opinion" does not take away from a point of view the speaker's true stance.

I am comparing the current status with all versions that came before-- that is my perspective. And I like to provide supporting information behind my opinions and see the reasoning of others if it is offered. I don't feel that makes the opinion hateful or dramatic. I welcome a sound and reasonable challenge to an opinion-- but some responses come off as "just shut up and roll with it no matter what."

Outside this medium I can say the original Ocean's 11 was written better, but both films are very enjoyable. I could also say the original Steel Magnolias movie was better than the recent remake.

I actually love a good remake, but I have issue if a good part of what makes the remake work is based on me filling in the gaps off my memory and previous feelings.

I respect the other opinions including the surrender and I was noting why I cannot surrender. That was simply my opinion on surrender. I appreciate all opinions even if I do not agree with them.

#23 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6096 posts) - - Show Bio

Um Ok.

#24 Posted by CaptainUzi (1679 posts) - - Show Bio

O ok

#25 Posted by cameron83 (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

I had a thought last night. An epiphany if you will. I realized that just constantly raging and constantly finding fault with the New 52 is a waste of time. Other people share my opinions and it won't be long before DC either undoes it completely, or at the very least does some other big event to make things more like they were before. As such, I've decided to just accept it for the time being. I'm still mad about it, but I'm gonna be a man and suck it up........... For now -_-

So DC here's my white flag

You know,this is the exact same way I feel about the new 52 right now.

I mean,I like some stories,but in general.....I have no emotional attachment to it like I used to.

This is definitely a new take on old characters,to even call them the same is horribly incorrect,and this universe consistently has tons of inconsistencies and errors and stupidity and laziness. But hey....new take and all.

I LOVED the old universe (before near the end,such as blackest night and countdown and crap like that),but this new universe....I just like certain stories and such with it. I don't love it. There is no longer an emotional attachment.

I don't care what changes they make to these characters anymore for two reasons:

1. They are no longer the same characters. Not even close. Just bearing the same name (excluding Tim not-Tim Drake). When they said they are doing new takes on the characters,they were not joking.....

2. I give up on the constant anger. There is just no point. I am completely dropping DC (after years of being a fan...well,actually I was fan of the old universe...but that's LOONG dead and gone),sure some books are good,but I do not love them anymore.

I was a fan of the old universe,and that is gone (perhaps forever,since the new 52 is doing well. Seriously,I see tons of complaints about the new 52,perhaps more in the past 2 years than I have ever seen in comic book history being that it makes some stupid decision like every other month,yet it still is #1 in terms of sales...and people seem to be eating it up). I just have to accept this fact.

You probably don't care,but just sharing my thoughts....

#26 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: I still get mad at changes they make, but not so much for how it effects me. I get mad because it effects new readers. The readers who will most likely never know what the old universe was like. The readers who will never know of the trials and struggles of these characters before hand and how they were BETTER characters then. I mean I can't say much on the Batman front of things, odd how their poster boy get's the least overall changes aside from a couple of villains getting an unneeded overhaul, or even on the Green Lantern side of things, but everything else is a waste.

That Superman short they did for his 75th anniversary was great, I've watched it at least 20 times, but it also tends to make me feel a tad depressed afterwards because no new reader is going to remember Superman as he was and not this imposter who acts like a poor man's interpretation of how Superman SHOULD be rather than what he IS

#27 Posted by cameron83 (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: I still get mad at changes they make, but not so much for how it effects me. I get mad because it effects new readers. The readers who will most likely never know what the old universe was like. The readers who will never know of the trials and struggles of these characters before hand and how they were BETTER characters then. I mean I can't say much on the Batman front of things, odd how their poster boy get's the least overall changes aside from a couple of villains getting an unneeded overhaul, or even on the Green Lantern side of things, but everything else is a waste.

That Superman short they did for his 75th anniversary was great, I've watched it at least 20 times, but it also tends to make me feel a tad depressed afterwards because no new reader is going to remember Superman as he was and not this imposter who acts like a poor man's interpretation of how Superman SHOULD be rather than what he IS

I agree. But my anger is also towards the new readers. Many of the new ones think that this is how the characters are supposed to act. All DC has to do is shove power levels and feats in their face or a new bat-gadget in every other issue that is just excessive and gaudy and they're on board. The personalities are a mere shadow of the real characters. Even Ultimate Marvel can represent their 616 versions in a way that captures the essence of the character (just look at 1610 peter parker). They will never know the history and personalities and such of the characters,how they are truly supposed to act...well,for most characters anyway. Apparently for Batman and GL the history remains intact,but it just doesn't make any sense.....anyway,that's just a minor point that strays away from the main point a bit.

Put simply,these are not the same characters,and these new readers don't know how these characters are supposed to act. They just brush away the old fans as "people stuck in the past" and just tell themselves that these new incarnations of the characters (and the universe itself) are automatically better.

#28 Edited by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83:

Ya know the more I think about it, the more I realize DC has forgotten the core purpose of superheroes. Yes, the Golden Age and Silver Age of comics were weird sometimes, but I'd say that was what the charm of comics back then. They were an escape for many from the horrors of the times. The Bronze Age, well that is where everything went wrong. DC at that point, wanted to truly reboot the comic, all because of they wanted to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the company. I love and hate Crisis on Infinite Earths, as it was a great story but took so much away from DCs' rich history.

DC superheroes, are suppose to be the modern day equivalent of the Greek heroes of yore. They were the ideal we strive to be. I grew up with the beginning of the modern age of heroes, but also reading old comics my grandpa had saved which had Alan Scott as Green Lantern and Jay Garrick as Flash as well as a few original JSA comics. These are the reasons I cherish Golden Age characters, they were the start. Without them we wouldn't HAVE superheroes today most likely!

Superman when I started really reading comics was still Superman. He had compassion, he had the power, yet still I feel he was more what Superman was all about than the New 52 Superman. Giving hope to those who need it when the need it the most. In fact, all DC superheroes at one point were some type of ideal we all tried to emulate. Wonder Woman? She stood for fighting for peace. Green Lantern? Overcoming fear. Batman? Turning tragedy into a driving force to motivate you to do better. The Flash? Showing that people thrown into situations they can't control can still overcome them.

Marvel heroes, on the other hand, were who we related to.

For most writers to say the were shaped by what Stan, Jack, Bill, Bob, Joe & Jerry started back in the golden age, then turn around and slap us in the face with the crap they write is just an insult.

In my personal opinion, I think we need a Platinum age of Comics. Rebooting is all well and good, but as Infinite Crisis proved, that can become a complete cluster of a mess. And New 52 is no better, as it ignores the living hell the Golden/Silver/Bronze/Modern age heroes when through that made them heroes.

#29 Posted by The Stegman (23752 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't be angry. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to the Dark Side.

#30 Edited by darknightspideyfanboy (1223 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Edited by cameron83 (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

@smart_dork_dude said:

@cameron83:

Ya know the more I think about it, the more I realize DC has forgotten the core purpose of superheroes. Yes, the Golden Age and Silver Age of comics were weird sometimes, but I'd say that was what the charm of comics back then. They were an escape for many from the horrors of the times. The Bronze Age, well that is where everything went wrong. DC at that point, wanted to truly reboot the comic, all because of they wanted to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the company. I love and hate Crisis on Infinite Earths, as it was a great story but took so much away from DCs' rich history.

DC superheroes, are suppose to be the modern day equivalent of the Greek heroes of yore. They were the ideal we strive to be. I grew up with the beginning of the modern age of heroes, but also reading old comics my grandpa had saved which had Alan Scott as Green Lantern and Jay Garrick as Flash as well as a few original JSA comics. These are the reasons I cherish Golden Age characters, they were the start. Without them we wouldn't HAVE superheroes today most likely!

Superman when I started really reading comics was still Superman. He had compassion, he had the power, yet still I feel he was more what Superman was all about than the New 52 Superman. Giving hope to those who need it when the need it the most. In fact, all DC superheroes at one point were some type of ideal we all tried to emulate. Wonder Woman? She stood for fighting for peace. Green Lantern? Overcoming fear. Batman? Turning tragedy into a driving force to motivate you to do better. The Flash? Showing that people thrown into situations they can't control can still overcome them.

Marvel heroes, on the other hand, were who we related to.

For most writers to say the were shaped by what Stan, Jack, Bill, Bob, Joe & Jerry started back in the golden age, then turn around and slap us in the face with the crap they write is just an insult.

In my personal opinion, I think we need a Platinum age of Comics. Rebooting is all well and good, but as Infinite Crisis proved, that can become a complete cluster of a mess. And New 52 is no better, as it ignores the living hell the Golden/Silver/Bronze/Modern age heroes when through that made them heroes.

I agree with most everything you said. You've done what I couldn't. Express my emotions of DC's basic history into words.

But apparently,it seems DC can't write their characters like what they are supposed to be anymore.....instead,they are written so they can easily be put into battle forums and easily translated into movies (or at least made for people who exclusively watch the movies).

It seems we are just seen as "the old fans" and to hell with us.

To tell you the truth,nothing DC does surprises me anymore. If they turned Batman into a serial killer just for suspense I wouldn't even care.....

Can I even call these the same superheroes (I mean,Gods that were,at the same time,people that went through conflicts) that I once knew? DC sure does try to force me to,but I will never make such an inaccurate comparison.

I'm actually surprised that DC still pushes (awesome) images of the old universe into our face with Batman Arkham games and shows like Young Justice....

But,hey,whatever makes the money,DC will strive towards....if making Wonder Woman into a man made them tons more cash,they would do it in a heartbeat.

#32 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2633 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: Currently I'm not even reading DC anymore. Still buying their other stuff, as I'm still a fan of the old universe though I refuse to buy anything that feels like it has the taint of the New 52 in it, but I cannot bring myself to buy their comics anymore.

#33 Posted by cameron83 (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: Currently I'm not even reading DC anymore. Still buying their other stuff, as I'm still a fan of the old universe though I refuse to buy anything that feels like it has the taint of the New 52 in it, but I cannot bring myself to buy their comics anymore.

Same here. Haven't bought anything from them in almost a year. It doesn't even feel like DC anymore,I can't even call them DC anymore.

I will only buy things of the old universe.....

#34 Edited by cameron83 (7130 posts) - - Show Bio

Btw,am I the only one that has fantasies and dreams of the old DCu titans beating up everyone and every team in the old universe (with some prep or knowledge of the people that they apply from their old universe)??

#35 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't be angry. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to the Dark Side.

But...But the dark side has cookies

#36 Posted by The Stegman (23752 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrinboltagonprime21: That's a lie the Sith spread to get you to join. All they have are Fig Newtons and grape juice.

#37 Posted by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrinboltagonprime21: That's a lie the Sith spread to get you to join. All they have are Fig Newtons and grape juice.

Well I like Fig Newtons. Hello, Dark Side.

#38 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (5713 posts) - - Show Bio

They would lie about having cookies!? That is the most evil thing I have ever heard of.

#39 Edited by Rouflex (16999 posts) - - Show Bio

Life is too short for hate. It consumes too much energy.

Just read what you like and don't read what you don't like. Simple :)

I agree with this.

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