Catwoman and Starfire Rantings...

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Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

BTW, Mods, I posted this in the Gen. Discussion, cause I think its more about sexism, Sex and that, instead of the actual characters, contrary to what the title says. Unfortunately, I was too late to change the title. =(

Two things before we starts:

  • Since this seems to be the hot topic on the net right now, at least comic wise, I'm going to be blogging on this, since I too feel strongly about it, with one character more than another. Though both cases are still bad.
  • I am a Male. In every sense of the word.

In the new Revamped DC, we have all noticed that there has been indeed, in the search of relativety with new customers a new "wave" of an attempt at "sexiness" in the DC. I'm sure the plan was to attract Old customers who were fans of the character, Core customers who just read comics and have had there curiosity peaked by some of the more extravagant scenes as well as the nature and new readers, who are just looking for Comic's equivalent of American Pie. Did it work? Maybe.

I'll start with Catwoman, since its definitely the side I think I'm capable of defending in anyway, without turning this into a slaughterfest. I like the direction of the book, but I think that some things that are too much, are definitely too much. Ironically I remember a thread where people compared the Manga to A Comics in terms of the Female readership and it was mentioned that Manga had more female readers, but it was also pointed out that it had more fanservice. I find it an ironic twist of fate that we end up with a book that ends up slipping through a manga-esque fanservice, just like that, without any of the things female readers like (not that I can speak for them, I'm just using my knowledge to analyze the situation).

Catwoman was definitely portrayed as a slut this issue, in both a literal and a figurative sense. What I mean by this is that her origin has definitely been merged with all three main ones that have been used. This means, she was in fact, at some point in time a whore (I hope that doesn't count as a swear word, which I don't know why it would but you never know...). The problem with this issue wasn't that, I mean I don't particularly like it, but the scene where she's exposing her bra and panties doesn't affect me that much sine I know it. But why the hell do I open the issue to see her with the costume half put on, with one her breasts out, and close it to find that she's taking off her costume again, exposing her breasts? Why? I mean, I can even give it to DC that they want a sex scene, but in the first issue, right off the bat? That isn't how sex scenes should be done... Furthermore, why did Winick put that boob out of the costume? Why? Why? I just really don't understand, that's the thing that turned this book with a heavy sexual undertone, to just something that was made for horny, adolescent male teenagers to look at the art.

Then we move on the Starfire... And while Red Hood might be a book that I liked more than Nightwing (and that's saying a lot, either on the Red Hood part, or on the Nightwing part) I totally didn't like Starfire's interpertation here. I mean, up until the first part of the book, it was soaring high. But then with that part in the end with Roy and Starfire, that was just wierd, specially how she "forgot" Dick. I mean, she probably hasn't but that's beside the point. The whole thing just feels creepy. I didn't really mind the bathing suit scene, though the bathing suit was kind of too skinny for my taste... ok, that came out wrong. I mean that it was too skinny, even for what they were trying to do. I mean, if it was just a normal Z Hot girl takes a bathing suit while X pre-teen takes a photo and drools, then you wouldn't need something as skimpy as this... It was just too much.

I thought the rest of the issue was good, I mean, I would probably even have accepted the Starfire sleepiing around thing if she it wasn't dealt like she was a total whore. I really would, I don't care much and it could even fit in the tone of the book, but that was just too WTF, even for Starfire. I mean, if she ended up sleeping with both of them, as friends and they didn't even mention each other, having interacted with each of the men very far between... then... Oh, WTF am I on.

Hope it was worth the read. :D

#1 Edited by super_psycho (2792 posts) - - Show Bio

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. 
we are going to get same thing every month. waste of money and time.

#2 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_psycho said:

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. we are going to get same thing every month waste of money and time.

I don't know. It has some potential, we just need less... yeah, less of that.

#3 Posted by super_psycho (2792 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. we are going to get same thing every month waste of money and time.

I don't know. It has some potential, we just need less... yeah, less of that.

tell me what do you want to see in catwoman's solo title? 
i think title should be catwoman/batman and batman's rogues
#4 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_psycho said:

@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. we are going to get same thing every month waste of money and time.

I don't know. It has some potential, we just need less... yeah, less of that.

tell me what do you want to see in catwoman's solo title? i think title should be catwoman/batman and batman's rogues

Man, that reminds me, I have to blog on this. What we need is a Nightwing/Red Robin title. Or a Batgirl/ Nightwing title. :P

#5 Posted by MrMazz (1252 posts) - - Show Bio

Well she was kind of quickly throwing everything on/ in a bag before her apartment was blown up so that explains the whole half costume in the begging. The part at the end symbolism open with a boob end with one or its the fact that they are having sex and generally you lose some clothes. Catwoman knows whats she wants and how to get it see the dude in the bathroom and Bats.

since I've never really read DC before sans Bat books the greatest knowlege about Starfire came from the Teen Titans tv show which man those two characters really different. I can see get where the anger about her "fogetting" everything is but 1 its the rejiggered 52 and they explained it away so I don't see all the big deal there.

#6 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:

So.. Just to be clear here. When you say Catwoman is definitely portrayed as a "slut." What, exactly, is your definition of the word slut... What we see is her having sex with Batman... They're both attracted to each other. They know each other on some level. They've had sex with each other before this instance... But, does that make her a slut? Was there something in the issue I missed? I think we use the word so often that we take for granted what it's really supposed to mean...

Would you say that Batman is being portrayed as a "slut" as well? He's having as much sex as she is....

We can say she's a slut because we see her bra.. The scene starts with her trying to get dressed quickly as her apartment is about to be attacked... So, she was undressed and had to get dressed... Was there something in the story line that I missed where she implied or stated that she likes to have lots of unprotected meaningless sex with people she doesn't know?

While I felt the sex scene was unnecessary for the story, I didn't see her or Batman as being sluts... There have been times when Spider-Man and Black Cat would hook up on a rooftop, or hotel room that they didn't officially check into, but most of us just saw that as two consenting adults having sex...

Now, you also used the term "whore." I believe today that's come to mean anyone who gets paid for sex... I might have missed that as well, so does she have a history as a hooker?

#7 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice ranting's.  
 
My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though. 

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#8 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

that's the thing that turned this book with a heavy sexual undertone, to just something that was made for horny, adolescent male teenagers to look at the art.

HEYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

I uh i mean yeah this was awful worse thing i ever read shame on them that makes me sick.

#9 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. we are going to get same thing every month waste of money and time.

I don't know. It has some potential, we just need less... yeah, less of that.

tell me what do you want to see in catwoman's solo title? i think title should be catwoman/batman and batman's rogues

Man, that reminds me, I have to blog on this. What we need is a Nightwing/Red Robin title. Or a Batgirl/ Nightwing title. :P

I'm still holding out for a Tim/Cass book titled Young Detective Comics. Or a Huntress/Question book written by Gail Simone titled Question Authority.

#10 Posted by danhimself (22582 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't think there was anything wrong with Catwoman #1...you can see the same amount of skin in a JcPenny catalog....and I can understand why people are upset with Starfire but it really didn't bother me at all

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#11 Posted by The Poet (8338 posts) - - Show Bio

I figure anything in this new Catwoman series will be better than the baby (yes, I had to mention the baby!)

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#12 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@ReVamp:

So.. Just to be clear here. When you say Catwoman is definitely portrayed as a "slut." What, exactly, is your definition of the word slut... What we see is her having sex with Batman... They're both attracted to each other. They know each other on some level. They've had sex with each other before this instance... But, does that make her a slut? Was there something in the issue I missed? I think we use the word so often that we take for granted what it's really supposed to mean...

Would you say that Batman is being portrayed as a "slut" as well? He's having as much sex as she is....

We can say she's a slut because we see her bra.. The scene starts with her trying to get dressed quickly as her apartment is about to be attacked... So, she was undressed and had to get dressed... Was there something in the story line that I missed where she implied or stated that she likes to have lots of unprotected meaningless sex with people she doesn't know?

While I felt the sex scene was unnecessary for the story, I didn't see her or Batman as being sluts... There have been times when Spider-Man and Black Cat would hook up on a rooftop, or hotel room that they didn't officially check into, but most of us just saw that as two consenting adults having sex...

Now, you also used the term "whore." I believe today that's come to mean anyone who gets paid for sex... I might have missed that as well, so does she have a history as a hooker?

In an interview, which is "solidified" when she recognizes the man, its been mentioned that they are bringing back the fact that she used to have been a prostitute. As an origin story. What I mean, though I don't remember exactly what I said, is that I didn't know whether I liked this origin and probably meant that her "seducing" of the "target" was done sluttily, which I have nothing against.

@MrMazz said:

Well she was kind of quickly throwing everything on/ in a bag before her apartment was blown up so that explains the whole half costume in the begging. The part at the end symbolism open with a boob end with one or its the fact that they are having sex and generally you lose some clothes. Catwoman knows whats she wants and how to get it see the dude in the bathroom and Bats.

since I've never really read DC before sans Bat books the greatest knowlege about Starfire came from the Teen Titans tv show which man those two characters really different. I can see get where the anger about her "fogetting" everything is but 1 its the rejiggered 52 and they explained it away so I don't see all the big deal there.

Yeah, I know that was the reason, but you have to understand it wasn't necessary. Sure, there was a justification, but it doesn't mean they have to show her with a breast out, it was an artistic choice, period.

I have nothing against the scene in the end, even though the last splash page was kind of "WTF", but I'm just doubting the fact it all has to be in the same issue.

My beef with Starfire isn't that she is a completely new character, but she is the same, but has just forgotten who she was? I mean, the whole thing was poorely explained.

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

I'd love to hear them though, when you have the chance :P

@BlackArmor said:

@ReVamp said:

that's the thing that turned this book with a heavy sexual undertone, to just something that was made for horny, adolescent male teenagers to look at the art.

HEYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

I uh i mean yeah this was awful worse thing i ever read shame on them that makes me sick.

This post = Win. Purely :D

@fodigg said:

@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

@ReVamp said:

@super_psycho said:

No one is going to read catwoman's solo book (except few perverts) if batman and his rogues aren't involved. we are going to get same thing every month waste of money and time.

I don't know. It has some potential, we just need less... yeah, less of that.

tell me what do you want to see in catwoman's solo title? i think title should be catwoman/batman and batman's rogues

Man, that reminds me, I have to blog on this. What we need is a Nightwing/Red Robin title. Or a Batgirl/ Nightwing title. :P

I'm still holding out for a Tim/Cass book titled Young Detective Comics. Or a Huntress/Question book written by Gail Simone titled Question Authority.

Not my favourite choice, but yeah, we need one of these. I need banter, I just need it.

@danhimself said:

I really don't think there was anything wrong with Catwoman #1...you can see the same amount of skin in a JcPenny catalog....and I can understand why people are upset with Starfire but it really didn't bother me at all

I feel there's more to Catwoman than Boobs and sex and nakedness tied off with a vague plot... I mean, there probably was a plot right? I didn't really notice much. :P TBH, It doesn't really upset me much when reading the issue, but just reflecting back I feel kinda... I dunno.

Starfire bothered me. I don't even mind her sleeping with both of them (Hell, I called it), I just didn't feel good in the way it was handled.

@The Poet said:

I figure anything in this new Catwoman series will be better than the baby (yes, I had to mention the baby!)

I figure that anything with the baby is better than Damian (yes, I had to mention Damian!) I kid, I kid. :P

#13 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

Sooo... You go for quality over quantity?!?!? :-)

#14 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

Sooo... You go for quality over quantity?!?!? :-)

No, he means that he looks at how it was done, than what was actually done.

#15 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Timandm said:

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

Sooo... You go for quality over quantity?!?!? :-)

No, he means that he looks at how it was done, than what was actually done.

um... I was actually just sort of making a subtle joke... Maybe it was too subtle...

#16 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@ReVamp said:

@Timandm said:

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

Sooo... You go for quality over quantity?!?!? :-)

No, he means that he looks at how it was done, than what was actually done.

um... I was actually just sort of making a subtle joke... Maybe it was too subtle...

I got that you were joking, but I thought you were asking for real too. :P

#17 Posted by Doveland (132 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".
#18 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@Timandm said:

@SC said:

Nice ranting's. My opinions/perspective is different, but I am too tired to state them lol *smile* I am more of a context person than content though.

Sooo... You go for quality over quantity?!?!? :-)

 
I am thinking more of the big picture. This is why I am still not really a fan of the revamp/reboot/reshoot/rehaul/renvisioning/reimaginingreeewwhhaaa?   
 
Lets say we have one issue out of a story arc of ten issues, and on its own that issue to some isn't that balanced? its creative aspects? What if when viewed with the ten story arc, suddenly it is now balanced? What if they only read that one issue? What if actually five issues are sort of imbalanced but overall it still works out? Who even gets to decide whether its balanced or not? What if you knew an issue was imbalanced but that the writers were just throwing that issue in their because they know how readers think and if they can hook in 20 percent more readers than otherwise, and those readers will likely stick though the story, even if the story starts to change to appeal to maybe you the other individual, and the writer sort of winks at you? like hey, please keep buying this issue, I promise what you like will come soon, but I know your loyal and i need to appeal to other fans too just so we survive, please do not be fickle... this is a number one issue. Its going to be polarizing Being polarizing is almost a good thing. Comics aren't like movies, novels, or TV shows. They tend to fluctuate more with art consistency, story direction, how long you spend reading it... plus of course what are good stories, aren't always stories that sell. Will fans take stories they find average and accept it if they know the health of the book is at stake? Is the book driving away one time of fan for an inferior temporary type of fan? So... I did not really address this thread at all lol Essentially though, its about taking what was popular and good with the issue, and being creative enough to still have that next issue, whilst minimizing what was disliked about the issue. It also means recognizing that characters aren't real, so trying to justify creative aspects with that logic will not work too well. Of course... if any of us posters figure out how to do such as to sell comics in healthier numbers, the people in the coats will knock on our door... anyway lol how can we have that adult angles whilst also appealing to those who think other angles aren't covered? How can we have our cake and eat it too, without losing a cake before getting to even see it. obviously I am talking about cheesecake =)
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#19 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Doveland said:

@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".

I disagree, Roy isn't a creep, he just hasn't been written properly in forever, which totally sucks. I kinda like this Roy and I hope this works out well.

#20 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC:Cheesecake, I LOVE Cheesecake!

Yeah, I get what you mean, though I don't think its right to just (not talking about the actuall book, just giving an example) show a bunch of sex scenes and nakedness in the first issue to hook peolple on it, demeaning the character in the mean time. I mean, as a male, I didn't care much for what happened, but if this was done to Nightwing, then the story would have been horrible and the character would've been completely looked over. All in favour for some stud who f**ks chicks left and right for the whole issue.

I get what you mean with the balance of a story, but the fact still remains, you this issue doesn't have an overarching plot of 10 issues. I mean, it might have on paper and it might be collected with other 9 issues, but it doesn't really fit into it. Its more of a stand alone issue, that shows boobs flashing left and right. So you can't discuss the balance it has with other issues, since it won't have much to do with them. Sure, they might use less of these "techniuqes" (if they can be called such) in future issues, since the 20 percent of readers are already hooked on it, but it still doesn't justify what happened. I mean, that first splash page was really unecessary. I might've even liked it, but that's way beyond the point, y'see where I'm getting at? The Sex scene wasn't something I have naything against either but there were many things, all cramped into one issue, that simply suffocated the story:

  1. The Breast out of the costume
  2. The Splash at the end
  3. The Sex Scene
  4. The Bra and Panties scene
  5. The flashback scene

So it all goes back to sex, sex, sex and no story.

#21 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@SC:Cheesecake, I LOVE Cheesecake!

Yeah, I get what you mean, though I don't think its right to just (not talking about the actuall book, just giving an example) show a bunch of sex scenes and nakedness in the first issue to hook peolple on it, demeaning the character in the mean time. I mean, as a male, I didn't care much for what happened, but if this was done to Nightwing, then the story would have been horrible and the character would've been completely looked over. All in favour for some stud who f**ks chicks left and right for the whole issue.

I get what you mean with the balance of a story, but the fact still remains, you this issue doesn't have an overarching plot of 10 issues. I mean, it might have on paper and it might be collected with other 9 issues, but it doesn't really fit into it. Its more of a stand alone issue, that shows boobs flashing left and right. So you can't discuss the balance it has with other issues, since it won't have much to do with them. Sure, they might use less of these "techniuqes" (if they can be called such) in future issues, since the 20 percent of readers are already hooked on it, but it still doesn't justify what happened. I mean, that first splash page was really unecessary. I might've even liked it, but that's way beyond the point, y'see where I'm getting at? The Sex scene wasn't something I have naything against either but there were many things, all cramped into one issue, that simply suffocated the story:

  1. The Breast out of the costume
  2. The Splash at the end
  3. The Sex Scene
  4. The Bra and Panties scene
  5. The flashback scene

So it all goes back to sex, sex, sex and no story.

 
What's demeaning is relative though is the point. Take a book you liked this week? Actually, you know what? Actually it was blatantly demeaning and inappropriate and so not the right way to represent that character in that book you liked. Always more than one way to read into a story. I mean, I personally hated the Lady Liberators Arc in Hulk by Loeb? He had one male character, choking some female characters, whilst taking the sword out of the hands of another and then tapping it against her forehead and flinging other characters off his shoulder? It was... bleh. I tend to take comics seriously and I hate when characters especially female characters are victim to the stuff that happens in Versus threads with ZOMG Rulk just pwned her a%& lulz. Total ownage. *insert humorous rape joke*then again... I know like most people who read Loeb's books are casual fans who just view it as fun. I know Loeb wrote Commando and likes these cheesy and stupid action type moments and knows fans like it, and I know that Cho draws cheesecake. Its not a good combo as far as how my tastes go?  
 
I wasn't talking about this story? Ten, 5, 2, the point is that it is not a one shot. If this book was issue #449 and all other issues were your favorite issues ever, then what? Would you be less cynical? More? For some, sex is a story. 
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#22 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC:I guess we simply disagree. I don't even like Catwoman and in my "What I'm going to read in the DCnU" I wrote that I wasn't even going to get Catwoman. Hell, I wrote, Meh, I have better things to do. But I think its just not good for the character... it was demeaning, even for a book I don't like. And I don't think sex can be a story, but that's off the topic.

#23 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@SC:I guess we simply disagree. I don't even like Catwoman and in my "What I'm going to read in the DCnU" I wrote that I wasn't even going to get Catwoman. Hell, I wrote, Meh, I have better things to do. But I think its just not good for the character... it was demeaning, even for a book I don't like. And I don't think sex can be a story, but that's off the topic.

 
Do we disagree? I didn't really state my personal take, I just offered alternatives. If I was writing this issue, I would have written it a lot differently. Than again, hell if I know it would sell half as much. I like Catwoman, I don't dislike her less, she's fictional. I think there is some potential good to go with the not good. Just depend. What if this issue means that more people get to see how deep she is as a character next issue? Tow different realities at work here. Who has more to lose from this situation? Me or DC? You can't put sex in a bubble. Meaning... the fact that its Catwoman and Batman? Inherently creates a relative degree of a story, at least subjectively so. Catwoman and Black Cat? Have sex? Different story because different characters. So the story might be weak, but still sort of there depending on your perspective. Maybe that latter part we agree to disagree. 
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#24 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@ReVamp said:

@SC:I guess we simply disagree. I don't even like Catwoman and in my "What I'm going to read in the DCnU" I wrote that I wasn't even going to get Catwoman. Hell, I wrote, Meh, I have better things to do. But I think its just not good for the character... it was demeaning, even for a book I don't like. And I don't think sex can be a story, but that's off the topic.

Do we disagree? I didn't really state my personal take, I just offered alternatives. If I was writing this issue, I would have written it a lot differently. Than again, hell if I know it would sell half as much. I like Catwoman, I don't dislike her less, she's fictional. I think there is some potential good to go with the not good. Just depend. What if this issue means that more people get to see how deep she is as a character next issue? Tow different realities at work here. Who has more to lose from this situation? Me or DC? You can't put sex in a bubble. Meaning... the fact that its Catwoman and Batman? Inherently creates a relative degree of a story, at least subjectively so. Catwoman and Black Cat? Have sex? Different story because different characters. So the story might be weak, but still sort of there depending on your perspective. Maybe that latter part we agree to disagree.
  1. Ah, Ok! I didn't realize this, but sure, I know that there are many alternatives and reasons why this was done, I understand them, I just don't support them.
  2. No, Its probably sell twice as much, but that's a fact, we can't really discuss it.
  3. I don't think it would work. I mean sure, if it does happen then its good, but you shouldn't demean a character by showing her breasts every five seconds. The thing that put me off in the issue was that "tit slip" that happened in the first few pages. It shouldn't be there... At what point did they think fan service of that kind was good? I mean sure it sells and I don't have much against that, specially as a manga fan, but I don't think it can be seen morally right in any way.
  4. I'm not sure what you're talking about, but if you're talking about the same thing, I don't think anyone lost. You liked it (supposedly, maybe not but that's besides the point) and DC got sales. I just don't like them doing stuff like that, its the way I feel.
  5. Not really, it was just some sex scene that they tried to tie in at the end.
  6. The story is so dilluted because it was suffocated with Sex, it might not have been there.

I didn't dislike the book, I actually enjoeyed it, but I find it kind of repugnant that they're using a female's body to sell books. I mean, that is in the end what they're doing. They're showing boobs in the first scene and random sex in the last just to boost sales. Regardless, I liked the book more than I thought I would've and it was fun, in a mindless nature, kind of like how playing Modern Warfare 2 is, with a beer in the hand, unshaved fer dayz and yelling into the mike, ya digg? :P

#25 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp:  4. I mean, creatively you didn't like aspects of this story right? You'd claim that this extends to more than just you, and thus is a bad move? Now if they changed the book creatively, to remove your objections?  
5. As soon as you say "they", you give the story context. That context establishes things that can be interpreted as a story. Its up to you as a reader how you interpret though, Me? I have a crazy imagination, I get a story from watching a water droplet fall lol  For all I know, this sex scene may have resonated better with female readers (thus a cynical attempt to get more money) , because its a story to them, because of what they project into the scene. I make sense now? I am not saying you need to realize there was a story there? More that it depends.  
 
I digg *smile*
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#26 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@ReVamp: 4. I mean, creatively you didn't like aspects of this story right? You'd claim that this extends to more than just you, and thus is a bad move? Now if they changed the book creatively, to remove your objections? 5. As soon as you say "they", you give the story context. That context establishes things that can be interpreted as a story. Its up to you as a reader how you interpret though, Me? I have a crazy imagination, I get a story from watching a water droplet fall lol For all I know, this sex scene may have resonated better with female readers (thus a cynical attempt to get more money) , because its a story to them, because of what they project into the scene. I make sense now? I am not saying you need to realize there was a story there? More that it depends. I digg *smile*

4. No, I'm saying I don't like breasts showing on the first page. I like the creative directions of the issue, I mean, as much as possible I'm not big on Catwoman.

5. There is a story, never said there wasn't (if I did, I was exagerating for effect, y'know like a manner of speech) it was just very dilluted in my book. There was a story, just not the way it should be written. Also, I think that both books resonated horribly with the famle readership, one portrayed a long-term romancer become a whore and the other used the main character's body as a selling point... :P

#27 Posted by busterblader (21 posts) - - Show Bio

What makes the breast shots demeaning to the character was that there are panels with just that and no room left for Selina's face to establish the character and coney emotion. left breast doesn't tell us why she was in a hurry to get her costume and cats and get out.

Playing devils advocate for minute with the last scene, on another sites comic podcast they mentioned that in the old days we had several times where a scene between batman/catwoman ended with the implication that "something" was about to happen. Starting out the series like this I hope is convey that the cat and mouse games of the old days are over these are two people that care for each other and are developing a serious (if not very physical) relationship.

Personally I think the most demeaning thing in the issue was the last bit of internal monologue she delivered "I don't know who he is and I don't think he knows who I am". Considering he just said "I heard your apartment was firebombed" I think he has a pretty good idea what her name is if he has her address. That's a pretty big lapse in common sense for a career criminal trying to hide identity.

#28 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@busterblader:I'm not talking about the last scene. I'm talking about the last page specifically.

#29 Posted by keith71_98 (387 posts) - - Show Bio

Winick's Catwoman isn't the smart, sexy, complex Catwoman I love. She's cheap and trashy just like this first issue. Winick equates sexy to boob and butt shots and pink undies. In other words, make her a sex object instead a strong independent woman who is also sexy. All of that's not even touching the structural problems of the book. So much potential wasted by Winick and his warped interpretation of sexy!

#30 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: 4. I am saying here that creatively they probably think having those breasts there instigates more good than bad. For a number of reasons. Not so much good and or bad, but more. 
Moderator
#31 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@keith71_98 said:

Winick's Catwoman isn't the smart, sexy, complex Catwoman I love. She's cheap and trashy just like this first issue. Winick equates sexy to boob and butt shots and pink undies. In other words, make her a sex object instead a strong independent woman who is also sexy. All of that's not even touching the structural problems of the book. So much potential wasted by Winick and his warped interpretation of sexy!

Yup.

@SC said:

@ReVamp: 4. I am saying here that creatively they probably think having those breasts there instigates more good than bad. For a number of reasons. Not so much good and or bad, but more.

So wait, you think showing her with a costume half dressed and one breat in the costume and the other out, does more for the book? How necessarily?

#32 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp:  Well, on the idea that people, as in comic fans, are all different and never hardly tend to agree with each other and that this applies to casual fans as well? So you'll get some fans who care, but like (for a multitude of reasons), and some fans that don't care, and some that do care and do not like (for a multitude of reasons) and so its a balancing act yes? I don't care when Herc pops man breast in Incredible Hercules.  Two different characters and contexts. sure like my original point is though, what I am okay with, want is safe/best way people with millions of dollars to lose thinks is best... 4 am. I need go sleep 0_0 (there are other ways as well. I mean, as an artist, visually more dynamic to have such set up. Not as practical or iconic though etc - then fact that Seline is POV character? That matters too) Hope I made sense *smile* Ciao. 
Moderator
#33 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC: Gosh, it's like you have almost nothing to say on the matter... :-)

I am thinking more of the big picture. This is why I am still not really a fan of the revamp/reboot/reshoot/rehaul/renvisioning/reimaginingreeewwhhaaa?

I hate all reboots... Whatever they're called. Let characters age, mature, and retire. Bring on new generations to take the mantle of whatever... Then, there's no need for a reboot.

Lets say we have one issue out of a story arc of ten issues, and on its own that issue to some isn't that balanced? its creative aspects? What if when viewed with the ten story arc, suddenly it is now balanced? What if they only read that one issue? What if actually five issues are sort of imbalanced but overall it still works out? Who even gets to decide whether its balanced or not?

You mean, other than me and God?

What if you knew an issue was imbalanced but that the writers were just throwing that issue in their because they know how readers think and if they can hook in 20 percent more readers than otherwise, and those readers will likely stick though the story, even if the story starts to change to appeal to maybe you the other individual, and the writer sort of winks at you? like hey, please keep buying this issue, I promise what you like will come soon, but I know your loyal and i need to appeal to other fans too just so we survive, please do not be fickle... this is a number one issue.

Yes. So many times a story arc goes stale (or at least seems to), or an issues just doesn't seem to fit until the later and you 'get it' and do that, "OOOOOOHHHhhh" thing.

Its going to be polarizing Being polarizing is almost a good thing.

It's the polarizing things that get our attention the most. History shows us this. Consider how nations are drawn into war. The American Civil War for example. The possibility of war had existed for years but it was not until the Dread Scott Decision that the country became polarized to two extremes enough to actually go to war. The United States might never have entered into WWI if the Lusitania had not been sunk by German U-boats. Citizens of the U.S. were onboard, and their death basically pissed the people of the country off. Once the nation was angry enough, it was easy for Wilson to bring the country into the conflict. The bombing of Pearl Harbor had the same effect. The United States was reluctant to enter the war until.... So, the polarizing events, whether they anger us or excite us, get our attention... And that sells comics... If we're talking about it, we must be reading it.

Comics aren't like movies, novels, or TV shows.

Is that why my remote has no effect on them? Now I feel kind of stupid for plugging in that O.M.D arc to see if I could change it.

They tend to fluctuate more with art consistency, story direction, how long you spend reading it... plus of course what are good stories, aren't always stories that sell.

One More Day. Age of X. Prelude to Schism. Schism. Spider-Island.

Will fans take stories they find average and accept it if they know the health of the book is at stake? Is the book driving away one time of fans for an inferior temporary type of fan?

Yes.

So... I did not really address this thread at all lol Essentially though, its about taking what was popular and good with the issue, and being creative enough to still have that next issue, whilst minimizing what was disliked about the issue.

In this case, I think so.

It also means recognizing that characters aren't real, so trying to justify creative aspects with that logic will not work too well. Of course... if any of us posters figure out how to do such as to sell comics in healthier numbers, the people in the coats will knock on our door...

OH! So THAT'S who those guys are. I've just been hiding every time they show up. You know, like on Halloween when you run out of candy but the kids keep coming? You turn off the lights and pretend you're not home.

anyway lol how can we have that adult angles whilst also appealing to those who think other angles aren't covered? How can we have our cake and eat it too, without losing a cake before getting to even see it. obviously I am talking about cheesecake =)

Okay... So I have to comment on that. (Which is SO unlike me.) The first time I heard that expression I thought, "Why can't you have a cake and eat it too? Isn't that EXACTLY what we do? Who get's a cake and then doesn't EAT IT?!"

Who has a cake and eats it too? ME! Every chance I get!

ooo

#34 Posted by entropy_aegis (15338 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Doveland said:

@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".

I disagree, Roy isn't a creep, he just hasn't been written properly in forever, which totally sucks. I kinda like this Roy and I hope this works out well.

So it's a pick and choose huh?

#35 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@ReVamp said:

@Doveland said:

@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".

I disagree, Roy isn't a creep, he just hasn't been written properly in forever, which totally sucks. I kinda like this Roy and I hope this works out well.

So it's a pick and choose huh?

Me no comprende? Whut?

@SC: Be back to you in a second. :P

#36 Edited by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I'm still holding out for a Tim/Cass book titled Young Detective Comics. Or a Huntress/Question book written by Gail Simone titled Question Authority.

Yeah i'v been witing for a Tim/Cass book for years I'm not to keen on the name though

#37 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@fodigg said:

I'm still holding out for a Tim/Cass book titled Young Detective Comics. Or a Huntress/Question book written by Gail Simone titled Question Authority.

Yeah i'v been witing for a Tim/Cass book for years I'm not to keen on the name though

Well Black Bat and Red Robin sounds terrible. :(

#38 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@BlackArmor said:

@fodigg said:

I'm still holding out for a Tim/Cass book titled Young Detective Comics. Or a Huntress/Question book written by Gail Simone titled Question Authority.

Yeah i'v been witing for a Tim/Cass book for years I'm not to keen on the name though

Well Black Bat and Red Robin sounds terrible. :(

lol, it really does. Young Detective comic sounds like a shonen magazine though... :P

#39 Posted by daredevil21134 (11924 posts) - - Show Bio

@Doveland said:

@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".

Yup Jason is awsome

#40 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio

Who knew comic book fans where so prude 

#41 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

#42 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@Doveland said:

@ReVamp: I hate what they've done to Starfire. I'm all for a girl to show some sexuality, but she shouldn't just be in denial about the existence of Dick. Also, Roy is a total creep! I don't mind her sleeping with Jason as he's awesome, but with Roy I was just like "...no!".

Yup Jason is awsome

LOL, that's just cause you're such a fanboy... haha, I kid, I kid. :P He really is awesome though, but Roy ain't really a creep.

#43 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman
#44 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

#45 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?
#46 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?

Jumping out the window. I don't have a problem with the "whole thing" except for the fact that all this was crammed together, if you know what I'm trying to say...

#47 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?

Jumping out the window. I don't have a problem with the "whole thing" except for the fact that all this was crammed together, if you know what I'm trying to say...

Well she was getting changed and anyway she runs around with her top undone anyway 
#48 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?

Jumping out the window. I don't have a problem with the "whole thing" except for the fact that all this was crammed together, if you know what I'm trying to say...

Well she was getting changed and anyway she runs around with her top undone anyway

True, but it doesn't mean that you have to show the breast out. It was an artistic choice. You could have shown her with one leg in and the other not, y'know? Am I getting through?

#49 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?

Jumping out the window. I don't have a problem with the "whole thing" except for the fact that all this was crammed together, if you know what I'm trying to say...

Well she was getting changed and anyway she runs around with her top undone anyway

True, but it doesn't mean that you have to show the breast out. It was an artistic choice. You could have shown her with one leg in and the other not, y'know? Am I getting through?

Yea but having one leg out would just look totally awkward and to have an arm out you would have to show a breast anyway  
#50 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Who knew comic book fans where so prude

You talking about me? How was I prude?

No no not you, just some of the reaction in general to Catwoman

Yep, I know. Some people have justified opinions, though.

Its just that thing in the first few pages can't be justified in anyway. Or at least, no one has opened my eyes to justifications.

When she is jumping out the window or just the whole thing?

Jumping out the window. I don't have a problem with the "whole thing" except for the fact that all this was crammed together, if you know what I'm trying to say...

Well she was getting changed and anyway she runs around with her top undone anyway

True, but it doesn't mean that you have to show the breast out. It was an artistic choice. You could have shown her with one leg in and the other not, y'know? Am I getting through?

Yea but having one leg out would just look totally awkward and to have an arm out you would have to show a breast anyway

That's not the point. I'm not discussing how she'd have done it actually, I'm dicussing the deciscion that Judd Winick went through: "Hmm, showing a boob on the first page will attract more readers, awesome!"

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