Are Old School DCU Fans Ruining the DCNU?

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#1 Posted by BatWatch (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

I wrote a review on Nightwing #0, and some guy left me a comment that said:

"No offense, but fans of the Old continuity are whats killing the new 52, the old DCU isnt comming back, and if you took that out of the picture this was a very enjoyable story :)"

That rather irked me, so I wrote him a response which I believe is worth sharing.

"No offense, but you are completely wrong.

"First, DC has never been dying. Their market share might have been decreased over the last couple of decades, but there is a big difference between a shrinking market share and the dying of an industry.

"Second, DC is certainly not dying now. Rather, it has just made a remarkable improvement in health reaching record sales this past year.

"Third, the DCNU is doing well with the old fans not in spite of the old fans. No industry can survive without its base market. Sure, it was largely new fans which added the larger numbers to DC sales last year, but they would not have been near enough to sustain DC if the old fans had not stuck with the comics.

"Fourth, there were some old fans that were so upset by the reboot that they stopped reading, but those fans were few and far between, and they are already gone. Therefore, you cannot attribute any problems to DC's current operations to those people. They are not strangling the industry by refusing to buy comics; they simply left and washed their hands of the whole thing.

"Fifth, you seem to be under the impression that most fans of the old DCU are not fans of the new DCU. This is not the case. Old fans can like both. From what I've seen, a slight majority of old school fans prefer the old universe, but there are still plenty of old school fans who feel the reboot is exactly what the industry needed.

"Sixth, I bought the comic before reviewing it, so obviously, I am not killing the industry.

"Seventh, I did not even give the comic a bad rating. I said it was okay, and that is the rating it rightly deserved.

"Eighth, critiquing the work of a comic book is not meant to be a slam on the DCNU, DC, or even necessarily the particular writers and artists who made the comic. Rather, it is a way of giving other readers and possibly even the creative staff feedback on the comic. It is not an effort to tear anything down; it is an effort to build things up by saying, "This could be better."

"Ninth, any industry that does die under a little scrutiny deserves to die.

"Tenth, as a presumably new fan, you should be thanking old school readers like me for keeping the industry alive for all the years people like you have been neglecting it. If it were not for the old school fans, there would have been no comic book industry, and you would not have been able to jump onto the comic book wagon after they performed their latest gimmick.

"Eleventh, let's pretend for a second that all the stories you have read in the past year were suddenly wiped from continuity? Hacked off? Now multiply that times twenty-five.

"Twelfth and final, sure there are some fans who will whine about every little change made to continuity, but for the most part, I think old school fans have moved over the shock of the DCNU. We are ready and willing to accept changes in continuity, but they have to be good changes. Undermining the father/son bond between Bruce and Dick is not a good change."

Any thoughts?

#2 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

Fans in general (old and new alike) kill the things they are fanatic about. It's always like that with anything, be it entertainment or something else.

#3 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

We comic book fans tend to be a whiny bunch. Some moreso than others. There's always someone hacked off with something in comics. Heck there are people on here who don't like Snyder's Batman run.

#4 Posted by GundamHeavyarms (695 posts) - - Show Bio

We fans tend to be our own worst enemy.

#5 Edited by btmt (222 posts) - - Show Bio

People expects too much from New52 in just one year of run.

Everyone have to understand that New52 has just completed it's phase-1 which we can say a development and testing phase and DC is doing perfectly good, there is always chance of error in any work.

Everyone should think it as a part of entertainment not much more if they don't like it they should start writing their own comic books and then they will see how much hard work it takes to write a single comic book, It is always impossible to satisfy everyone's needs and views in comic book industries.

And Old fan should also understand that there is a revolution going in DC comics New52.

By rebooting their comic universe the DC comics' ultimate goal is to make comic books for every people and make every new young person familiar with the long known favorite DC comics characters.

If everyone start thinking maturely and accept the truth nothing is wrong, In the end every comics are just for the entertainment only.

#6 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing from the New 52 I REALLY hate is the lack of coordination, and that stupid 5-year timeline. But I can assure you that, in the 80's, most Superman fans weren't happy that Supergirl, Krypto or the old Krypton, among other things, were gone.

#7 Posted by Suprman (442 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler said:

The only thing from the New 52 I REALLY hate is the lack of coordination, and that stupid 5-year timeline.

I agree with this statement. The 5 year timeline is really constricting and it makes it a pain for characters like Batman and his allies. I also don't like the work of certain writers on certain books in the new 52 but that's personal taste.

#8 Posted by Esther_Cotillard (489 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad you stood you're ground. You have the right to your opinion and there's nothing wrong with stating it.

#9 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13696 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn right PK.

Online
#10 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@btmt said:

People expects too much from New52 in just one year of run.

Everyone have to understand that New52 has just completed it's phase-1 which we can say a development and testing phase and DC is doing perfectly good, there is always chance of error in any work.

Everyone should think it as a part of entertainment not much more if they don't like it they should start writing their own comic books and then they will see how much hard work it takes to write a single comic book, It is always impossible to satisfy everyone's needs and views in comic book industries.

And Old fan should also understand that there is a revolution going in DC comics New52.

By rebooting their comic universe the DC comics' ultimate goal is to make comic books for every people and make every new young person familiar with the long known favorite DC comics characters.

If everyone start thinking maturely and accept the truth nothing is wrong, In the end every comics are just for the entertainment only.

A very nice post in defense of the New 52. Kudos to you for doing that.

#11 Posted by btmt (222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@btmt said:

People expects too much from New52 in just one year of run.

Everyone have to understand that New52 has just completed it's phase-1 which we can say a development and testing phase and DC is doing perfectly good, there is always chance of error in any work.

Everyone should think it as a part of entertainment not much more if they don't like it they should start writing their own comic books and then they will see how much hard work it takes to write a single comic book, It is always impossible to satisfy everyone's needs and views in comic book industries.

And Old fan should also understand that there is a revolution going in DC comics New52.

By rebooting their comic universe the DC comics' ultimate goal is to make comic books for every people and make every new young person familiar with the long known favorite DC comics characters.

If everyone start thinking maturely and accept the truth nothing is wrong, In the end every comics are just for the entertainment only.

A very nice post in defense of the New 52. Kudos to you for doing that.

Thank you!!

#12 Posted by Squalleon (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought that after one year of new 52 .The post-new 52 vs pre-new 52 debate had ended.

#13 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

I thought that after one year of new 52 .The post-new 52 vs pre-new 52 debate had ended.

How come? You should know better that this debate isn't going to subside for quite a while.

#14 Posted by Squalleon (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I didn't see as many topics as i saw before two months and i thought it had started dying.I see some topics here and there but i just ignore them and forget them,probably that's why i thought that this debate ended.

Well either way i don't have a problem with any continiuity as long as the stories are good.

#15 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Lvenger: I didn't see as many topics as i saw before two months and i thought it had started dying.I see some topics here and there but i just ignore them and forget them,probably that's why i thought that this debate ended.

Well either way i don't have a problem with any continiuity as long as the stories are good.

Sorry but the debate's still going strong. Babs made a blog post about missing the Pre New 52 verse and that's still going on. This debate won't simmer down for some time, not with glaring continuity errors, erased characters and teams along with a compressed time period and no one knowing what the hell happened in the 5 years between Justice League and current stories. The good stories of the New 52 have come at a huge price.

#16 Edited by Squalleon (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Well dc has all the time in the world to fix them.I don't particulary have any problem except the batman timeline and the 0 issues didn't help at all.

#17 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: Since the Internet wasn't as prominent back in the 80s, I wonder how people reacted to the COIE reboot?

And yeah 4 Robins in 5-7 years is a stretch. Plus all the other stories and how they play out in the different New 52 universe. Not to mention how Superman's death, which is still supposed to have happened affected things.

#18 Posted by Squalleon (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Superman's death has happened!

Seriously that was a bad idea!Why would they make it canon they don't gain anything.

#19 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, the #0 month was a very bad idea. DC should just be going forward, not remind old readers of what they lost by having an entire month dedicated to retcons.

#20 Posted by Rumble Man (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

Johnny come lately fans can shut the f*ck up

Old fans have been keeping the business running though their dedication of the stories ,without them the new fans would not get to read the 'reboot' they love today.

#21 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

Johnny come lately fans can shut the f*ck up

Old fans have been keeping the business running though their dedication of the stories ,without them the new fans would not get to read the 'reboot' they love today.

Not only that but until very recently DC was playing the nostalgia card, with comics such as DC Legacies or DC Retroactive. The reboot was a complete 180. DC went from celebrating its past to almost completely ignoring it in a few months.

#22 Posted by Rumble Man (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: They sh@t on the very foundations which gave birth to their industry

#23 Posted by Deranged Midget (17974 posts) - - Show Bio

Are old fans ruining the New 52? No, but in some regards we may be too critical but with reason I suppose.

Moderator
#24 Edited by ALFMutant (165 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a reboot was needed, but I don't have this feeling that DC had a plan or it was clear in their head for what they would do with it. We are entering the 2nd year of the New 52 and things are slowly starting to make sense. When Justice League of America #1 will be released in November, I think it will be a turning point for DC, a whole bunch of their characters were left in a corner for the first year but all that will be corrected.

What I still don't like with the reboot:

  1. The timeline don't make any sense for Batman,
  2. Green Arrow's ongoing title sucks.
  3. Superman's ongoing sucks
  4. Teen Titans have awful costumes
  5. Why make all their characters younger?

What I like about the reboot:

  1. Martian Manhunter will become a prominent character in the New 52
  2. Scott Snyder with Batman
  3. Aquaman became popular
  4. John Constantine in the DC Universe
  5. Frankenstein Agent of S.H.A.D.E
  6. Earth 2

I think DC should not had reboot their universe but instead, go for a relaunch of all their ongoing. Like Marvel, who said the NOW! upcoming event will not be a reboot but a turning point in their universe, I think it is a better idea and the best way to get a fresh look on your characters and keep the longtime readers happy.

#25 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@ALFMutant: Action Comics doesn't suck. Morrison is the saving grace of Superman in the New 52. The ongoing Superman sucks, that I'll grant you. But Action Comics is a real treat to read with Superman feeling more relevant in one issue of Morrison's run than he did in most of Grounded.

#26 Posted by Deranged Midget (17974 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@ALFMutant: Action Comics doesn't suck. Morrison is the saving grace of Superman in the New 52. The ongoing Superman sucks, that I'll grant you. But Action Comics is a real treat to read with Superman feeling more relevant in one issue of Morrison's run than he did in most of Grounded.

I'd have to agree. Action Comics is indeed the only saving grace for Superman in the New 52. He is poorly represented in the his namesake title and he is disgracefully portrayed in Justice League.

Although, Grounded did have it's touching moments, especially the one with the jumper that truly sparks true to what Superman's character and ideals are all about.

Moderator
#27 Posted by danhimself (22720 posts) - - Show Bio

How about the "new readers" ruined the DCU for old time readers by being lazy???? HUH??? HOW ABOUT THAT???? Is it really THAT hard to start reading comics? NO it's not but because they refused to read trades and do a little research we (the old readers) had to have everything we loved about our favorite characters wiped out...heck some of our favorite characters are gone altogether!!! For what? So a couple of books could do well while the majority of the books in the New 52 are nothing but mediocre.

#28 Posted by WildStyle (331 posts) - - Show Bio

No, old fans have a right to complain. They were the same folks who supported DC before the relaunch. Just ignore them if they effect you that much.

#29 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

@Lvenger said:

@ALFMutant: Action Comics doesn't suck. Morrison is the saving grace of Superman in the New 52. The ongoing Superman sucks, that I'll grant you. But Action Comics is a real treat to read with Superman feeling more relevant in one issue of Morrison's run than he did in most of Grounded.

I'd have to agree. Action Comics is indeed the only saving grace for Superman in the New 52. He is poorly represented in the his namesake title and he is disgracefully portrayed in Justice League.

Although, Grounded did have it's touching moments, especially the one with the jumper that truly sparks true to what Superman's character and ideals are all about.

For some reason I decided to review every issue of Grounded. Poor mistake on my part. The earlier stories definitely had potential but as Grounded progressed, it turned into a mess. I blame JMS though, not Roberson who replaced JMS as the writer. He was left with a poor script and plot to tie up.

#30 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights: While I agree with what you're saying, I feel bad for the guy you are slamming.

#31 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

@Lvenger said:

@ALFMutant: Action Comics doesn't suck. Morrison is the saving grace of Superman in the New 52. The ongoing Superman sucks, that I'll grant you. But Action Comics is a real treat to read with Superman feeling more relevant in one issue of Morrison's run than he did in most of Grounded.

I'd have to agree. Action Comics is indeed the only saving grace for Superman in the New 52. He is poorly represented in the his namesake title and he is disgracefully portrayed in Justice League.

Although, Grounded did have it's touching moments, especially the one with the jumper that truly sparks true to what Superman's character and ideals are all about.

Disgracefully portrayed?

#32 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@sethysquare: You know DM doesn't like Johns' writing on Justice League and to be honest I agree with him. I'm dropping Justice League for Wonder Woman. Though I'll admit he has written good team books before. Teen Titans, JSA, Justice Society of America, JLA: Crisis of Conscience are examples that spring to mind.

Oh, now that you mentioned it, I do recall that he is the poster who doesn't like Justice League. But I remember he was previously not a mod, so I was confused with the identity. Shouldn't have started it. sigh.

LOL I still love both Justice League and Wonder Woman. Pretty excited about Superman #0 though.

#34 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Yep he's a mod now. You can still debate and argue with mods, just don't p*** em off or else you face the ban hammer :P Is Wonder Woman good btw?

#35 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: LOL. oh dear, I am terrified. haha.

Yeah Wonder Woman is really good. I've read it from issue one and Orion storyline is going to be awesome, go check it out.

#36 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Trust me I am. Wonder Woman vs Orion is gonna be sweet!

#37 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@sethysquare: Trust me I am. Wonder Woman vs Orion is gonna be sweet!

I dont think theres going to be a versus though. But would totally love to see what is going on in there.

#38 Posted by Lvenger (21246 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@Lvenger said:

@sethysquare: Trust me I am. Wonder Woman vs Orion is gonna be sweet!

I dont think theres going to be a versus though. But would totally love to see what is going on in there.

If there's not, that'll be annoying. I mean it says in the solict for Wonder Woman 15: "Get ready for round 1 of Wonder Woman vs. Orion!"

#39 Posted by Deranged Midget (17974 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: Yes, disgracefully portrayed. Johns has proven he knows how to write Superman as with Last Son and Brainiac and yet, he has him act like a short-fused brute.

Moderator
#40 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35155 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hate all the "back in my day" fan rants, honestly STFU

#41 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5084 posts) - - Show Bio

In a word...no but there is way too much entitlement on the older side of the fence... and I say that and as a fan who's been purchasing DC titles for close to twenty years. I also have no problem saying the attitudes, discrimination and air of superiority that some of my fellow fans have demonstrated (and continue to demonstrate) is appalling.

#42 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (8084 posts) - - Show Bio

I have been only reading comics for 4 months now, so NEW 52 is good for me.

#43 Posted by finiteman (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

I wrote a review on Nightwing #0, and some guy left me a comment that said:

"No offense, but fans of the Old continuity are whats killing the new 52, the old DCU isnt comming back, and if you took that out of the picture this was a very enjoyable story :)"

Eh. Everyone has an opinion. You shouldn't let him get to you.

...And frankly I am not 100% sure it it won't be coming back in a year or two.

Look at the flagship titles. Are any of them stronger than they were before flashpoint..?

Superman? No.

Action? Yes -- the only one IMO.

Batman? No.

Detective? No.

JLA? No.

Wonder Woman? It's interesting, but is it better than the Gail Simone stuff?

GL? No.

GLC? No.

Hawkman? No.

GL? No.

The clean start has spiked all of these titles sales numbers, but eventually a lack quality will kill sales. When that happens, which of these titles will have a better foundation to tell stories than they did in the old 52?

Books like the LOSH and Earth2 can continue without any issue in the old 52 DCU.

I am unconvinced that door is shut, regardless of what may be said by the higher ups at DC.

#44 Posted by SmashBrawler (5978 posts) - - Show Bio

@finiteman said:

Batman? No.

Yes, unless you're saying that Tony Daniel is a better writer than Scott Snyder.

JLA? No.

Yes, James Robinson's run was horrible. I prefer the current mediocre run.

Wonder Woman? It's interesting, but is it better than the Gail Simone stuff?

Depends on who you ask.

GL? No.

Same quality, IMO.

Hawkman? No.

Compared to what? Hawkman didn't have a series before the New 52, unless you mean the one that was cancelled years ago.

Books like the LOSH and Earth2 can continue without any issue in the old 52 DCU.

It would be extremely weird to have both JSA and Earth 2 in stands.

Oh, and you forgot Aquaman, who has entered a new Golden Age. The reboot wasn't necessary for it to exist, but it certainly helped to boost its sales.

#45 Posted by daredevil21134 (12705 posts) - - Show Bio

@ALFMutant said:

I think a reboot was needed, but I don't have this feeling that DC had a plan or it was clear in their head for what they would do with it. We are entering the 2nd year of the New 52 and things are slowly starting to make sense. When Justice League of America #1 will be released in November, I think it will be a turning point for DC, a whole bunch of their characters were left in a corner for the first year but all that will be corrected.

What I still don't like with the reboot:

  1. The timeline don't make any sense for Batman,
  2. Green Arrow's ongoing title sucks.
  3. Superman's ongoing sucks
  4. Teen Titans have awful costumes
  5. Why make all their characters younger?

What I like about the reboot:

  1. Martian Manhunter will become a prominent character in the New 52
  2. Scott Snyder with Batman
  3. Aquaman became popular
  4. John Constantine in the DC Universe
  5. Frankenstein Agent of S.H.A.D.E
  6. Earth 2

I think DC should not had reboot their universe but instead, go for a relaunch of all their ongoing. Like Marvel, who said the NOW! upcoming event will not be a reboot but a turning point in their universe, I think it is a better idea and the best way to get a fresh look on your characters and keep the longtime readers happy.

I agree with this

#46 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think they are yet. But they will eventually. I am just glad DC made some radical moves like making Alan Scott gay, and including Cyborg in their big 7 before it was too late. Comic fans hate progress.I hope DC keeps doing forward thinking things.

#47 Edited by The_Tree (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

Point eleven made me laugh so hard, but it's so true. Fans of the DCnU shouldn't go hating on people who don't like it, especially when they've got justified reasons for not liking it.

@Twentyfive said:

I don't think they are yet. But they will eventually. I am just glad DC made some radical moves like making Alan Scott gay, and including Cyborg in their big 7 before it was too late. Comic fans hate progress.I hope DC keeps doing forward thinking things.

If erasing character histories, erasing characters all together, creating a convoluted timeline, and bastardizing characters through pointless change is considered as progress, then that is just sad.

#48 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

No "older fans" not messing up the DCnU...

I literally want to punch Lobdell in the face till he stops thinking he is a good writer...or even a hack writer worthy of getting paid.

These writers and editors are complete idiots that do not have a clue as to what they are doing.

The further along the track we go the more these idiots show that all they are doing is pissing on all of DC. yes there is some good in there, but there largely isn't.

Oh and people are/were invested in characters... these current characters are not the same... in any way other than name... to the preflashpoint characters and their "origins" are pathetic trash that show how lacking of creativity and understanding of good characters and good stories work. They also don't know how to run a business either which is why just about ever "new" title that introduced besides their personal love projects are not showing any real sales and thus being canceled.

#49 Posted by sethysquare (3842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@sethysquare said:

@Lvenger said:

@sethysquare: Trust me I am. Wonder Woman vs Orion is gonna be sweet!

I dont think theres going to be a versus though. But would totally love to see what is going on in there.

If there's not, that'll be annoying. I mean it says in the solict for Wonder Woman 15: "Get ready for round 1 of Wonder Woman vs. Orion!"

Never trust solicitations. It'll probably be like a pretend fight until they get team up.

#50 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Age fanaticism has been having a negative impact on the DCU for a long while as the creators call back to the DCU of their youth. This was a problem before Flashpoint, so you can't really blame it on the revamp. I do, however, criticize them for not taking advantage of the reboot to integrate the various "generations" of heroes more. Moving Cyborg to the JL founder slot was a good move, but it simply wasn't enough.

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