Judd Winick Discusses Batwing, Batman Inc and Diversity in Comics

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#1 Posted by VaizD (249 posts) - - Show Bio

Where's part 1? O_o

#2 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

no really diggin the costume..........

#3 Posted by GraveSp (318 posts) - - Show Bio

I will say that a lot of my interest of the book comes from judd writing it.  at this point i have faith in his writing ability to take the chance on the book and i do kinda like the concept. 
 
that being said i agree that Egypt is definitely in the continent of Africa, but my understanding from my former relationship with an egyptian girl is that they do somewhat consider themselves part of the middle east and are influenced partial by that region.  just kinda wanted to bring up that, but like i said i am really interested in judd writing batwing

#4 Posted by ClawRavenscroft (98 posts) - - Show Bio
@VaizD said:
Where's part 1? O_o

good question.
#5 Edited by MydLyfeCrysis (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Diversity for the sake of diversity is a failure on all accounts. It patronizes and insults those who it is trying to 'recruit' as if their intelligence is so low that they are tricked into enjoying a property simply because a character would share the same race. It goes on to insult those who are not represented by saying they are no longer valid. 
 
Now, had the dreaded 'D' word not been mentioned and had it been explained that Africa (and the Mid-East) is still a rather lawless section of the world governed by corruption, warlords, criminal empires, and that it more than anywhere needs a Batman, I'd be incredibly excited. Had we been introduced to a character who sees the vile elements destroying his home, the humanity of the land he loves; a character who stands up and fights the rampant evil that plagues Africa, I would be enthralled by the tale. Diversity should be a byproduct of a great story, and will never be the genesis.
 
The problem here is the fact that the entire introduction to this character so far is, "We need more PC diversity...too many white people." Hell, doesn't that feel like a slice of bigotry in itself? This is the same problem happening with the new Ultimate Spider-Man. The entire leak and introduction to the character is about the "increase of diversity". Puh-lease. 
 
Just give us interesting characters with interesting stories. Make their evolution to superhero real. Make their position as a hero real. Don't patronize your audience and insult their intelligence with this PC, "diversity" crap.

#6 Posted by Utandi (218 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice interview, though i didn't watch the first part.

#7 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3559 posts) - - Show Bio

A thought came to my head while watching this that took over the rest of the conversation for me. "Who the HELL is going around thinking that Egypt isn't part of Africa?!" That's like saying Washington is in Canada, or that Nevada is a part of Mexico.
 
It's great they want to do diversity in the comic line up, but I don't think they are quite getting it when they are just making an African version of Batman in place of a hero with his own identity. There are enough Bat-characters as it is. Why don't they just create a completely original hero and just tie his origins into his background. 
 
There are some incredibly talented artists who come from minority backgrounds. I have to image that many of them have some great ideas for heroes that reflect their own backgrounds. It's more up to the publishers to seek those creators out and give them the opportunity to tell their stories.
Though, my favorite artist and artistic idol, Fred Perry, is a black man, but he created a series about a white-female protagonist and her family. He does have a pretty wide ethnic mix of characters for the series and uses them all to really great effect.
 
I do understand the need to talk about this issue. These things will never get cleared up if we don't talk about them.

@ClawRavenscroft said:

@VaizD said:
Where's part 1? O_o
good question.

Are you forgetting the Catwoman discussion they had back on July 20th, or did everyone think that he came back and everyone just happen to be wearing the same clothes?
#8 Posted by true.djnw@gmail.com (15 posts) - - Show Bio
@GraveSp said:
I will say that a lot of my interest of the book comes from judd writing it.  at this point i have faith in his writing ability to take the chance on the book and i do kinda like the concept.  that being said i agree that Egypt is definitely in the continent of Africa, but my understanding from my former relationship with an egyptian girl is that they do somewhat consider themselves part of the middle east and are influenced partial by that region.  just kinda wanted to bring up that, but like i said i am really interested in judd writing batwing
You said that they are influenced partially by the Middle Eastern Region....   shouldn't it be the other way around since the Egyptians where kinda first..... Just say-en.  
Egypt is in Africa like the man said, simple as that.
#9 Edited by Godot (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@MydLyfeCrysis said:

The problem here is the fact that the entire introduction to this character so far is, "We need more PC diversity...too many white people." Hell, doesn't that feel like a slice of bigotry in itself?

Yup, especially after the many years of hardship, slavery and discrimination white people have faced throughout history. It cuts both ways, guys! God.

Seriously though, your entire post smacks of white privilege. The dreaded "D-word"? Really?

EDIT:

@true.djnw@gmail.com said:

@GraveSp said:
I will say that a lot of my interest of the book comes from judd writing it. at this point i have faith in his writing ability to take the chance on the book and i do kinda like the concept. that being said i agree that Egypt is definitely in the continent of Africa, but my understanding from my former relationship with an egyptian girl is that they do somewhat consider themselves part of the middle east and are influenced partial by that region. just kinda wanted to bring up that, but like i said i am really interested in judd writing batwing
You said that they are influenced partially by the Middle Eastern Region.... shouldn't it be the other way around since the Egyptians where kinda first..... Just say-en. Egypt is in Africa like the man said, simple as that.

The (ancient) Egyptians might have been first, but the Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs have conquered Egypt since then. The Arab identity is not derived from ancient Egypt.

#10 Edited by ChadwickDavis (445 posts) - - Show Bio


Mr. Winick

  
Can we expect to see? 
 
1: the Covenant of Ka (the Assassins order that represents Scarab from the Red Robin Series--She is  is Egyptian). 
 
2: What about the League of Assassins? (Ra's al Ghul is the leader of an international league of  the world's deadliest assassins  after all) 
 
3: Will we see a supervillain equivalent of the Somali Pirates/ insurgents or some other real life militia in Africa? There was also a child soldier's group called the "Roi Lions"/ Little Lions in one of the OYL outsiders arc they would be interesting to see (Actually I think you wrote the issue).   
 
4: New Freedom Beast? (The old one Died in Justice League)
 
6: Justice League of Africa? Need I say More 
 
6: Vixen? Need I say more  

#11 Posted by keith71_98 (387 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm really mixed on Judd's work. Still up in the air about getting Batwing but that great art is winning me over.
#12 Posted by kennybaese (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

First part of the interview for those that were wondering. http://www.comicvine.com/judd-winick-dishes-out-details-on-the-new-catwoman-series/112-1590/

#13 Posted by Osiris1428 (1349 posts) - - Show Bio

Ask Judd this: What do you feel about the backlash to minority characters, opposition mostly viewing it as an effort to be "PC", claims that most if not all ethnic characters are nothing more than "token" characters. What is a "token" character in your opinion? And when is making a more diverse DC/Marvel what-have-you comic-verse done for more that just the "sake of diversity?"

#14 Posted by MydLyfeCrysis (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@Godot: Then you are even more ignorant that your post lets on. "White privileged" is the farthest thing one would use to describe my life and assumes a hell of a lot. Further, that is an ignorant phrase used when people cannot intelligently discuss what can be a volatile topic. I hinted at no racism. Diversity is often a buzzword used to apply some kind of "street cred", or appease the PC crowd at the cost of quality. To this effect I do call it the "dreaded D-word" as it is often a harbinger of degraded quality, and heavy-handed preaching. It causes a pigeon-holing of the property that usually winds up as supercilious tripe. 
 
Where in my post did I even hint at racism or "white privilege" when discussing diversity for diversity's sake? Was it where I defended the target minority group (of whom I could be a part of by the way) by saying that it is patronizing and an insult to the intelligence of readers? Or how about when I said that I would be reading the two books mentioned, and with optimism, only wishing they would let the stories do the talking for themselves instead of trying to induce some pathetic form of politically correct guilt upon their market? If they decided to have a white dude take up Black Panther's mantle, and in their selling of the idea tried to some crap about diversifying the hero, I'd feel just as annoyed.
#15 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

I do think he makes a good point about what writers should be able to write about, especially in saying how he had never been to space but wrote Green Lantern, and had never been a woman yet wrote Power Girl.  Its true, while writers may get flack for writing things that are not in tune to their own experience, I nevertheless think that shouldn't get in the way of them trying to write for a particular book.  And just like he said, would an African-American writer have a better perspective if he was to write Batwing instead of Judd?  Maybe, but also maybe not.  In the end this is all about creativity people, its not as if Batwing is a real character that one needs to have life experiences put into to make it spectacular.  Just enjoy Batwing for the fact that Winick is writing it and forget the rest!

#16 Posted by zombietag (1497 posts) - - Show Bio
@VaizD said:
Where's part 1? O_o
yuuuupp. also, this book doesnt even seem terrible.
#17 Posted by Outside_85 (9575 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder if they wanted a black hero heading a solo-book...why didn't they just use of the ones they already have? Like John Steward, Steel, Black Lightning, Vixen or Cyborg instead of falling back to the 'Batman sells' strategy? 

#18 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio
@MydLyfeCrysis said:

Diversity for the sake of diversity is a failure on all accounts. It patronizes and insults those who it is trying to 'recruit' as if their intelligence is so low that they are tricked into enjoying a property simply because a character would share the same race. It goes on to insult those who are not represented by saying they are no longer valid.   Now, had the dreaded 'D' word not been mentioned and had it been explained that Africa (and the Mid-East) is still a rather lawless section of the world governed by corruption, warlords, criminal empires, and that it more than anywhere needs a Batman, I'd be incredibly excited. Had we been introduced to a character who sees the vile elements destroying his home, the humanity of the land he loves; a character who stands up and fights the rampant evil that plagues Africa, I would be enthralled by the tale. Diversity should be a byproduct of a great story, and will never be the genesis.  The problem here is the fact that the entire introduction to this character so far is, "We need more PC diversity...too many white people." Hell, doesn't that feel like a slice of bigotry in itself? This is the same problem happening with the new Ultimate Spider-Man. The entire leak and introduction to the character is about the "increase of diversity". Puh-lease.   Just give us interesting characters with interesting stories. Make their evolution to superhero real. Make their position as a hero real. Don't patronize your audience and insult their intelligence with this PC, "diversity" crap.

You are making the misguided assumption that creating a character (or just as often: including a character on a team, putting a minor character in the spotlight, or "re-imagining" an existing character) with increasing diversity as a significant (even ONLY) motivation for doing so precludes telling good stories with that character. I disagree with that.
 
I also think you're making an unwarranted assumption about WHY the creators are interested in improving diversity in the books. You start with "diversity for diversity's sake" but then you immediately tag that with a sinister money motivation. Like diversity is only a gimmick to move product. I don't think that's fair or the case here. Diversity is important because monotony is dull. Also, inclusiveness is kinder to the readers than exclusiveness. It need not be more complicated than that.
 
Finally, you show the central contradiction of your argument by listing all the things that make this book unique and interesting--lawless sections of Africa, corruption, warlords, etc--and then saying that none of it matters because the book came--in part or in full--out of a desire to increase diversity. Even if I accept your claim that the desire to increase diversity is a bad thing (which I don't), that'd be like saying that Shakespeare's Othello is worthless if a letter was ever discovered where Shakespeare professed a desire to increase diversity on the stage by writing about a "moor." As if that expressed intent could ever change the content or quality of the play itself. First, the merits of the book stand alone despite any intentions of the author, second, none of the exciting things you listed about this book would've ever intersected with the Batman mythos WITHOUT that "bad" desire for diversity that spawned the book. Or at least, I highly, highly doubt so.
 
@MydLyfeCrysis said:

@Godot: Then you are even more ignorant that your post lets on. "White privileged" is the farthest thing one would use to describe my life and assumes a hell of a lot. Further, that is an ignorant phrase used when people cannot intelligently discuss what can be a volatile topic. I hinted at no racism. Diversity is often a buzzword used to apply some kind of "street cred", or appease the PC crowd at the cost of quality. To this effect I do call it the "dreaded D-word" as it is often a harbinger of degraded quality, and heavy-handed preaching. It causes a pigeon-holing of the property that usually winds up as supercilious tripe.   Where in my post did I even hint at racism or "white privilege" when discussing diversity for diversity's sake? Was it where I defended the target minority group (of whom I could be a part of by the way) by saying that it is patronizing and an insult to the intelligence of readers? Or how about when I said that I would be reading the two books mentioned, and with optimism, only wishing they would let the stories do the talking for themselves instead of trying to induce some pathetic form of politically correct guilt upon their market? If they decided to have a white dude take up Black Panther's mantle, and in their selling of the idea tried to some crap about diversifying the hero, I'd feel just as annoyed.

I agree that quality should speak for itself, but I disagree that quality can never come out of what you call "preachy" motivations. I don't think diversity is a "gimmick," but I do agree that if a character who is added for diversity's sake doesn't have a solid story behind it, it SHOULD fail. From the interview, it sounds like Winick has some ideas for Blackwing's personality and motivations that are pretty universal and don't rely on stereotypes. Batwing sounds like a product of his environment--of which his race is certainly a contributing factor, in how he relates to that environment--but it doesn't sound like you could sum him up as "the black Batman." So I'm optimistic.
 
Also, I would totally read a white Black Panther book. They could call it "Dark Black Panther." Or "Red(neck) Black Panther." If they actually put him actually IN WAKANDA or have him marry Storm and actually TALK TO HER ONCE IN A WHILE it would automatically be better than the current Black Panther stuff.
#19 Posted by ImperiousRix (1069 posts) - - Show Bio
@RedheadedAtrocitus said:
I do think he makes a good point about what writers should be able to write about, especially in saying how he had never been to space but wrote Green Lantern, and had never been a woman yet wrote Power Girl.  Its true, while writers may get flack for writing things that are not in tune to their own experience, I nevertheless think that shouldn't get in the way of them trying to write for a particular book.  And just like he said, would an African-American writer have a better perspective if he was to write Batwing instead of Judd?  Maybe, but also maybe not.  In the end this is all about creativity people, its not as if Batwing is a real character that one needs to have life experiences put into to make it spectacular.  Just enjoy Batwing for the fact that Winick is writing it and forget the rest!
This. 
I love Judd as a writer, and think that Batwing looks like an interesting character.  That's all there is when deciding whether or not to read this series as far as I'm concerned.
#20 Posted by Fantasgasmic (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I think works about a Batwing book: there are lots of unstable countries in Africa (Yemen, both Congos, Sudan, Zimbabwe, etc.) which have a lot of the drama Eastern Europe had around the fall of the soviet bloc. Here's what I think doesn't work about a Batwing stand alone book: Batwing is defined by his high tech look (until we find out more about him) but if he's going to be in the various places Winick talked about (the slums, the rural areas as well as the western style cities) what happens when his tech craps out on him and he's on the Giza plateau? 
 
Although I think diversity just for the sake diversity is kinda silly, I also think if DC really wanted to up the number of minority characters, they would keep Batman Inc. and focus on all the new Batmen (I wanna see more with Nightrunner and Mr. Unknown)

#21 Edited by MydLyfeCrysis (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg: First, I want to thank you for replying to me in an intelligent, non-aggressive manner. 
 
While I think we may have to disagree on some points, you are making one key mistake, which is perhaps my failure to correctly articulate. Where we disagree is that I don't think a serial plot, and a superhero plot, can really succeed when it's only motivation is to introduce "diversity" for that simple reason. As I stated before, it's patronizing. My qualm isn't with creating a pantheon of unique heroes, but the way in which it can be handled.
 
Most importantly, my frustration isn't with the existence of Batwing, the setting, or plot. My irritation is with the way these characters have been introduced to us. That the concept of diversity is all that legitimizes these heroes. The concept of diversity is all that sanctions them. We cannot talk about all those interesting and unique points of the book without first marking this character as a product of political correctness. First, DC must let you know that if you don't like the character you are against diversity and, with society's implications a racist. In this context, my argument isn't near contradictory. What I ask, is that if this book is more than an insulting, "look Batman is black" and an actual a gaze into an interesting part of the world from a unique point of view, let it stand on those merits. 
 
I think this is also seen when, as you said, people start with the idea to make a diverse character just to be diverse. Generally those characters never move beyond that diversity. Sure, that isn't the result 100% of the time, but we must admit most of the time this is the case. The character is nothing more than their "diverse" quality, the message becomes ham-fisted and the story suffers. I feel your point of Othello is a good one, in that it answers your question. But to clarify; had Shakespeare written a letter stating his fascination with the moors, the region, and culture,  and his desire to explore a tale from a moor's point of view, it would change nothing for me. But wouldn't it cheapen the legacy of the mastery of tales such as Othello had they not been allowed to stand on their own merits?  
 
And this statement is exactly echoing what I feel. Diversity for diversity's sake implies there isn't solid foundation for the character, but that it is there for quotas and back patting. Cheers.

I don't think diversity is a "gimmick," but I do agree that if a character who is added for diversity's sake doesn't have a solid story behind it, it SHOULD fail.

#22 Posted by Godot (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@MydLyfeCrysis: I said white privilege, not white privileged. I made the assumption on the fact that it is almost always white people that complain about people wanting diversity (that, and your profile picture suggests as much as well). Furthermore, you calling "white privilege" an "ignorant phrase used when people cannot intelligently discuss what can be a volatile topic" is you effectively shutting down the fact that white people have more privilege than minorities what a radical notion

You literally called the idea that Judd Winick had of "hey let's make an african superhero there aren't many of those!" a "slice of bigotry".

#23 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio
@MydLyfeCrysis said:

@fodigg: First, I want to thank you for replying to me in an intelligent, non-aggressive manner.  

Sure thing. I disagreed with your post but it's not like I thought anything you said was offensive. 
 

@MydLyfeCrysis

said:


While I think we may have to disagree on some points, you are making one key mistake, which is perhaps my failure to correctly articulate. Where we disagree is that I don't think a serial plot, and a superhero plot, can really succeed when it's only motivation is to introduce "diversity" for that simple reason. As I stated before, it's patronizing. My qualm isn't with creating a pantheon of unique heroes, but the way in which it can be handled.
 
Most importantly, my frustration isn't with the existence of Batwing, the setting, or plot. My irritation is with the way these characters have been introduced to us. That the concept of diversity is all that legitimizes these heroes. The concept of diversity is all that sanctions them. We cannot talk about all those interesting and unique points of the book without first marking this character as a product of political correctness. First, DC must let you know that if you don't like the character you are against diversity and, with society's implications a racist. In this context, my argument isn't near contradictory. What I ask, is that if this book is more than an insulting, "look Batman is black" and an actual a gaze into an interesting part of the world from a unique point of view, let it stand on those merits.    

Hmm. So it sounds like you're more upset about how this book is being marketed than with the book itself. Is that fair? 
 

@MydLyfeCrysis

said:


I think this is also seen when, as you said, people start with the idea to make a diverse character just to be diverse. Generally those characters never move beyond that diversity. Sure, that isn't the result 100% of the time, but we must admit most of the time this is the case. The character is nothing more than their "diverse" quality, the message becomes ham-fisted and the story suffers. I feel your point of Othello is a good one, in that it answers your question. But to clarify; had Shakespeare written a letter stating his fascination with the moors, the region, and culture,  and his desire to explore a tale from a moor's point of view, it would change nothing for me. But wouldn't it cheapen the legacy of the mastery of tales such as Othello had it not been allowed to stand on it's own merits?      

I don't think it would because the intentions of any author almost don't matter compared to the content of the final product. For example--a similar but unrelated debate--let's look at the old "Is Joseph Conrad racis?t" argument, centering around the character portrayals in Heart of Darkness. I always thought that discussion missed the mark because, unless you're studying the man, Conrad, the question of his own view doesn't matter. Evaluate the book instead. A final product ALWAYS stands alone and apart, on its own merits. 
 
Just as I dissociate Conrad's person from his work, I could distance Shakespeare's (hypothetical) personal comments or motivations from the content of Othello. I'm also still not sure WHY you feel that this motivation would "cheapen" the book anyway, as I remain unconvinced that the motivation to increase diversity is a bad thing. Mostly because that while a motivation for a certain character might start entirely with the desire for diversity, it need not end there. In the interview, Winick describes exactly this process: 
 
  • "We should have a black Batman." (Core motivation)
  • "Okay. Wasn't there a black Batman in Batman Inc.?" (brainstorming)
  • "Yes, and he's in Africa. Batman in Africa! That's awesome!" (core concept of the book established)
My feeling is that just because the first bullet point is the inception of the character book does NOT make the core concept of the book--established later in the process--any less worthy. So start with a worthy (IMO) goal of increasing diversity, then you brainstorm a solid basis for the character/book, and then you either sink or swim based entirely on your ability to deliver a quality product based on that core concept. 
 

@MydLyfeCrysis

said:

 
And this statement is exactly echoing what I feel. Diversity for diversity's sake implies there isn't solid foundation for the character, but that it is there for quotas and back patting. Cheers.

I don't think diversity is a "gimmick," but I do agree that if a character who is added for diversity's sake doesn't have a solid story behind it, it SHOULD fail.

I think diversity is a good thing in comics and that if you have to go after it directly in order to create it--which I think it's been proven they do have to as it wasn't happening on its own after decades--then so be it. I don't think that, if that's the original motivation for introducing a character, it necessarily implies that that character is destined for "token" or "stereotype" status. And if that is how it happens, then that character should fail. But I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the majority of writers in the comics industry that they're not going to tell the colorist, "hey, *points*, black guy," and call it a day. That they're instead going to set out to make a meaningful character that stands on its own without being ENTIRELY defined by its ethnicity. 
  

Anyway, I just hope Batwing is good. I'd be almost as excited for it if it were Bruce Wayne fighting African warlords, but I think it adds gravitas that this Batman will be defending his home. It will seem less like a fly-by-night adventure the American super-heroes are having this week in Africa. Batwing won't solve all of Africa's problems in six issues and then go back to Gotham. Also, Africa is big and has a lot of different political climates. There are so many different settings and stories they could do there that it easily qualifies as fodder for an ongoing. It just needs to not suck.
#24 Posted by MydLyfeCrysis (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg:

Hmm. So it sounds like you're more upset about how this book is being marketed than with the book itself. Is that fair? 

Correct, sir.

  • "We should have a black Batman." (Core motivation)
  • "Okay. Wasn't there a black Batman in Batman Inc.?" (brainstorming)
  • "Yes, and he's in Africa. Batman in Africa! That's awesome!" (core concept of the book established)

  • Your concept evolution makes a good point. I will relegate that. But understand I don't see that as diversity for diversity's sake. I see that as starting with an interesting point, and evolving it to provide an entirely unique story. Perhaps I am jaded seeing characters I SHOULD love that never make it beyond that point of an awful stereotypical icon. That or they never grow to anything beyond 2D splashes of color to add cred or appease the PC gods. Hey, I WANT representation, icons, and role models, but I want them to be GOOD examples of such and not at the sacrifice of already great and established characters (and books). Which, I think, is fair.
     
    Perhaps I wax too philosophical for some, and delve too deeply into motivation and perceived intent, but it is a flaw I bear. 
     

    Anyway, I just hope Batwing is good. I'd be almost as excited for it if it were Bruce Wayne fighting African warlords, but I think it adds gravitas that this Batman will be defending his home. It will seem less like a fly-by-night adventure the American super-heroes are having this week in Africa. Batwing won't solve all of Africa's problems in six issues and then go back to Gotham. Also, Africa is big and has a lot of different political climates. There are so many different settings and stories they could do there that it easily qualifies as fodder for an ongoing. It just needs to not suck. 

    I agree my friend. The feeling of Batwing defending his homeland gives the book a more meaningful impact. I just don't think it would work with Bruce. Not as a permanent book run, that is for sure.

    #25 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

    Judd: "Truth is he's (Ben) not drawn this many black people before"

    Babs: "There's not a lot of black people in comics."

    Thank you for just saying it. It's equally endearing and upsetting that in 2011 you have to use refrences to draw a black character. In the end though I'd rather someone be there that has done their homework than delivered a color swapped Barbara Gordon.

    #26 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio
    @MydLyfeCrysis said:

    @fodigg:

    Hmm. So it sounds like you're more upset about how this book is being marketed than with the book itself. Is that fair? 

    Correct, sir.

    "We should have a black Batman." (Core motivation) "Okay. Wasn't there a black Batman in Batman Inc.?" (brainstorming) "Yes, and he's in Africa. Batman in Africa! That's awesome!" (core concept of the book established)


    Your concept evolution makes a good point. I will relegate that. But understand I don't see that as diversity for diversity's sake. I see that as starting with an interesting point, and evolving it to provide an entirely unique story. Perhaps I am jaded seeing characters I SHOULD love that never make it beyond that point of an awful stereotypical icon. That or they never grow to anything beyond 2D splashes of color to add cred or appease the PC gods. Hey, I WANT representation, icons, and role models, but I want them to be GOOD examples of such and not at the sacrifice of already great and established characters (and books). Which, I think, is fair.

    I think you're letting the shallow nature of the typical "marketing blitz" (what's the story? no we don't care about the ACTUAL story, we just want the big spoiler or the feel-good message!) make you cynical about these situations/characters. The marketing will ALWAYS be shallow, but the books might actually be good.
     
    Definitely, some of these fall flat and make me wince in their execution. Lady Bullseye was simply terrible, for example. I mean really, her backstory was that she was sexual abused and therefore angry (how original) and decided to become Bullseye because she saw him once?? Odin's beard, that is just terrible. Clearly a "token" character who was supposedly there to increase diversity but was ACTUALLY there to increase T&A factor. And this was a character created by Ed "fo buys everything I write" Brubaker! I mean, "in Bru we trust," right? What the hell happened there?
     
    So yeah, it happens, but don't let that sour you on the idea of increasing diversity generally or that good characters, concepts, or new portrayals of existing characters coming out of a desire for better diversity in comics. The bad ones are bad because they're bad, not because the writers tried to do (or claimed they tried to do) a good thing.
    #27 Edited by Omega Ray Jay (7909 posts) - - Show Bio

    I want to follow a new title when DC becomes all new and shiny in September and I'm really starting to lean towards this, followed the newest Flash (to a point) and Green Lantern, just fancy something different and I'm interested to see how this will work, I do agree with earlier comments about it being sad that diversity is still taking a long time to become a thing of the norm.

    #28 Posted by Aldie_N (91 posts) - - Show Bio
    @VaizD: Pretty sure this is part 1
    http://www.comicvine.com/judd-winick-dishes-out-details-on-the-new-catwoman-series/112-1590/
    #29 Posted by Baal_Sagoth (39 posts) - - Show Bio

    Sounds like that could be an interesting premise for a book. The way he talks about it gives off a vibe that he knows what he's doing.

    #30 Posted by CWB (54 posts) - - Show Bio
    @VaizD: It was about his Catwoman comic coming out. 
    #31 Posted by Sammo21 (697 posts) - - Show Bio

    @VaizD: Maybe the podcast interview was considered part 1?

    #32 Posted by dr.x (553 posts) - - Show Bio
     

    I know  that Eygpt is in north africa  , that being said  Batman should  run into Black Adam  as well , i applude  Judd's willingness  to do rescearch  as well . 
     
    Batwing #1
    #33 Posted by Chibi-Iroh (388 posts) - - Show Bio

    Say what you want but we all know that comic books do need more diversity.

    #34 Posted by Chibi-Iroh (388 posts) - - Show Bio
    @pixelized: Its honestly a shame
    #35 Posted by craigbo180 (196 posts) - - Show Bio
    @Sammo21 said:

    @VaizD: Maybe the podcast interview was considered part 1?

    Here is part one.
    #36 Posted by daredevil21134 (12121 posts) - - Show Bio

    Hell Yeah Go Batwing

    #37 Posted by Osiris1428 (1349 posts) - - Show Bio
    @MydLyfeCrysis said:
    @fodigg:

    Hmm. So it sounds like you're more upset about how this book is being marketed than with the book itself. Is that fair? 

    Correct, sir.

  • "We should have a black Batman." (Core motivation)
  • "Okay. Wasn't there a black Batman in Batman Inc.?" (brainstorming)
  • "Yes, and he's in Africa. Batman in Africa! That's awesome!" (core concept of the book established)

  • Your concept evolution makes a good point. I will relegate that. But understand I don't see that as diversity for diversity's sake. I see that as starting with an interesting point, and evolving it to provide an entirely unique story. Perhaps I am jaded seeing characters I SHOULD love that never make it beyond that point of an awful stereotypical icon. That or they never grow to anything beyond 2D splashes of color to add cred or appease the PC gods. Hey, I WANT representation, icons, and role models, but I want them to be GOOD examples of such and not at the sacrifice of already great and established characters (and books). Which, I think, is fair.
     
    Perhaps I wax too philosophical for some, and delve too deeply into motivation and perceived intent, but it is a flaw I bear. 
     

    Anyway, I just hope Batwing is good. I'd be almost as excited for it if it were Bruce Wayne fighting African warlords, but I think it adds gravitas that this Batman will be defending his home. It will seem less like a fly-by-night adventure the American super-heroes are having this week in Africa. Batwing won't solve all of Africa's problems in six issues and then go back to Gotham. Also, Africa is big and has a lot of different political climates. There are so many different settings and stories they could do there that it easily qualifies as fodder for an ongoing. It just needs to not suck. 

    I agree my friend. The feeling of Batwing defending his homeland gives the book a more meaningful impact. I just don't think it would work with Bruce. Not as a permanent book run, that is for sure.

    YES!!!! @fodigg you got through to him!! I know we can talk about race/gender/homosexuality/religion/etcetera/ diversity in comics! It's just that we get caught up in our own pet peeves sometimes. Yes, the media is going to have headlines that headline. Only us comic geeks will really delve into what was some of the best runs on a given character or what have you, the media wants heavy traffic on their sites and many readers. I really hope Judd knocks this out of the park. The art looks great to me. Props to Babs for saying what I would have said had I been in the room. Hell, it's what I said when watching the damn video. Took the words right out my mouth. Damn, girl.
    #38 Edited by phantomzxro (37 posts) - - Show Bio
    @MydLyfeCrysis said:

    @Godot: Then you are even more ignorant that your post lets on. "White privileged" is the farthest thing one would use to describe my life and assumes a hell of a lot. Further, that is an ignorant phrase used when people cannot intelligently discuss what can be a volatile topic. I hinted at no racism. Diversity is often a buzzword used to apply some kind of "street cred", or appease the PC crowd at the cost of quality. To this effect I do call it the "dreaded D-word" as it is often a harbinger of degraded quality, and heavy-handed preaching. It causes a pigeon-holing of the property that usually winds up as supercilious tripe.   Where in my post did I even hint at racism or "white privilege" when discussing diversity for diversity's sake? Was it where I defended the target minority group (of whom I could be a part of by the way) by saying that it is patronizing and an insult to the intelligence of readers? Or how about when I said that I would be reading the two books mentioned, and with optimism, only wishing they would let the stories do the talking for themselves instead of trying to induce some pathetic form of politically correct guilt upon their market? If they decided to have a white dude take up Black Panther's mantle, and in their selling of the idea tried to some crap about diversifying the hero, I'd feel just as annoyed.


    I think your making too much out of nothing, diversity is not as bad a thing as you make it out to be. I feel that there would be nothing wrong with a white dude being black panther if there is a reason behind it. I think writers are just trying to auto correct the DC world and take note that  hey there is more of a even split when it comes to race in the DC world. Because as it stands now its like 85% white heroes and 10% black and 5% other in my mind. Now some of this may be heavy handed  but i say give it some time and see what these characters are about before damning them. Not every character has a smooth debut or a debut void of making money but some of these character have still came out as great characters.
    #39 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio

    Batwing vs Black Adam? You want him to die on his first solo series?

    #40 Posted by batmanary (798 posts) - - Show Bio

    Dear Judd: I think this should be mentioned, but why have one Batman covering the whole of Africa? Frankly Bruce has enough trouble in Gotham as it is, and yet here he is, assigning a new kid a whole continent, where so many conflicts are brewing in so many places, with the Libyan Civil War, to the anarchy of Somalia, to the totalitarianism of Mugabe? And why even focus a book on Batwing, when an equally viable character, who's a bit more fleshed out is present? The Night Runner surely deserved his own series, and was sorely underrepresented in Batman, Incorporated.

    #41 Posted by mbembet (219 posts) - - Show Bio

    DC release Rucka and keep winnick? WTF!

    #42 Posted by juddwinick (2 posts) - - Show Bio

    Hey! 
    Judd Winick here. No B.S. It's really me. 
    I stopped by to check the interview I did with the fabulous folks at Comicvine, and in all honesty, see what I'm looking like with a shaved head(truth--i miss hair), and could not help but take a gander at some of the thoughts of you fine comic readers. 
    For all of you who posted the positive vibes, and hopeful curiosity-- thanks! We are bound and determined to not let you down.  (Wait 'til you see the art from Ben Oliver. INSANE!)
    For all of those who have written Batwing off without even seeing  the book, all I ask is that you consider giving it a shot.  Maybe we'll change your mind.
     And for the straight up haters. I plan to keep writing comics out of love, but I always manage to find some extra motivation out of spite.  So thanks for that. :)  
     
    big hugs!! 
     
    judd

    #43 Posted by juddwinick (2 posts) - - Show Bio
    @squidracerX said:
     and Ive known 2 DC interns that specifically named him as a douchebag in their stories without any provocation on my own part)  
     
    and BTW, you sir, are totally full of it. Your pants are on fire. No interns have said anything bad about me, cuz no interns WOULD have anything bad to say about  me.  
    Big honking lie. 
    Just saying. 
    #44 Posted by squidracerX (28 posts) - - Show Bio
    @juddwinick said:
    @squidracerX said:
     and Ive known 2 DC interns that specifically named him as a douchebag in their stories without any provocation on my own part)  
     and BTW, you sir, are totally full of it. Your pants are on fire. No interns have said anything bad about me, cuz no interns WOULD have anything bad to say about  me.  Big honking lie. Just saying. 

    My bad, i shouldn't have pointed any fingers, this isn't the place to do it, no one likes to get attacked. I feel mean. But it did happen, why would i lie? I could care less if someone thinks I have a Judd Winick story or not... You are less of a celebrity to me than the crew on Giantbomb are. I read one or two of your stories a month where as i watch them for hours a week! And im not making up stories about meeting Jeff in a back ally somewhere. So just beware some interns don't warm to you.
    Its nothing to the degree of you splashed hot coffee in their face and stole their girlfriend or anything. Nothing evil. That's why i wish i hadn't brought it up. Just a general "they didn't know you very well but you made a bad impression" kinda thing.  And it was first hand from a really nice nerdy guy.  
     
    Ill erase what i said though, i feel mean.
    #45 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2276 posts) - - Show Bio

    I seem to be having a problem getting the video to play. Anyone else having that problem?

    #46 Posted by Mrfuzzynutz (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

    if thats why your not doing it...why mention it!? 
    Diversity is starting to become a dirty word

    #47 Posted by Maki_P (276 posts) - - Show Bio

    This is actually more promising than what I heard from Comic Con, at least Winick knows Africa is a large diverse continent as opposed to a country

    #48 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2276 posts) - - Show Bio

    Nice video, nice interview.  Too bad its short.  Will there be a part 3?
    Nice to see comics branching out, not just diversity, but also moving out from America and places like New York and Gotham.  Making it more global.  I can't wait to see who becomes his circle of friends and help.
    Batman has Alfred, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, etc.  The Bat Family.  Will Batwing get his own Batwing family?
    Because Africa is huge, and like someone else said, Batman has a hard enough time with Gotham.
    Sounds exciting.

    #49 Posted by Nuff_Said_Comics (40 posts) - - Show Bio

    I feel patronised.  
     
    This could go either way, I'm all for new characters and I love that it'll be set in Africa! But I think he was telling a fib about them not doing it solely for diversity. I hope it's good because it has potential.

    #50 Edited by maelevikus (18 posts) - - Show Bio

    I am glad there is more diversity nowadays in comics. And I hope to see more diversity as to races, religions, sexual preferences and gender preferences.  I do that diversity should become a gimmick to propel comicbooks. Because then it's a comicbook with a minority vote. But I say yes to diversity!

    I wanna see a Muslim / Arabian superhero with a proper telling of their religion and culture!
    I wanna see a Transgendered superhero
    I wanna see more Asian super-heroes that aren't the standard Kato
    I wanna see some European superheroes from Europe. Preferably from other countries other than UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy. Can a hero be from The Netherlands for a change. Or from Serbia or Poland or Latvia?

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