I don't like Damian Wayne.

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#101 Posted by vernierhawk001 (539 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

I actually think Damian presents, what I consider, a rare opportunity in comics: the chance to see a comic character literally grow up on the pages. I think it can be said that a good deal of sidekicks have "grown up" in the pages of the comics we read but Dick Grayson is the only other character I think we have really seen grow in as much detail as we have had over the years( Robin to TT to Nightwing to Outsiders to Bludhaven to being Batman...). I think introducing Damian so young and having him undergo the character progression I foresee him going through will be a treat. Only thing I don't like about the character is that DC has seemed to have given him Tim's role in relation to being Dick's "little brother" in N52. I don't mind them being close but not at the expense of the Tim Drake connection

I agree, though I also think we got to see Wally grow up to the same extent as Dick.

Tim Drake as a character has pretty much been assassinated since Flashpoint, though I think Damian's relationship with Dick is similar but still different. Tim and Dick have always been straight up brothers. Dick and Damian have that, but in a way it's deeper because Dick's the only person Damian considers to be his friend, and even later will still have been his first friend and the first person to really give him a chance to grow and become something more. He really stepped up and took on that father role for Damian while Bruce was "gone" and due to that i'd say he should realistically be far closer to Damian than Bruce. With Tim, that wasn't necessary as he had a father and then he had a mentor. Damian had neither. Tim and Dick could still be close if the writers chose to have them really interact.

Personally I didn't even care for Damian when he was first introduced, but he's grown on me. And a lot of it has to do with his stint as Robin with Dick, because that's where we saw the real growth. He goes from this self entitled kid who does whatever he wants to a boy trying to earn his father's respect and position at his side, and I think the writing's been great for the most part and that it all came to a head where he chose to follow Dick as Robin instead of his fanatical mother. (She's really gone off the deep end since the old days.) What I really appreciate is that no writer ever tried to make him into something he wasn't, like how when they first appeared both Jason and Tim were carrying traits of Dick Grayson. Damian's always stood apart from the others. He has both good and bad traits and neither side is ever really downplayed, at the same time it's made abundantly clear that despite all his skills he really is just a small 10 year old boy in a vast universe, and that he has to deal with things that most kids wouldn't be able to handle.

Very well written, sir. I am actually not a huge Flash reader so I wouldn't know if we saw him grow up as much. I mean, I know he went from side kick to hero (and took his mentor's role before Dick ever thought of becoming Batman, right?). But has Wally's character undergone the same character evolution as Dick? I honestly don't know.

And what you said about how DIck and Tim could still be close if writers chose...thats what really irks me. Why did they decide to change it? I understand trying to give Jason some kind of connection to the Family but still. Idk...seems like they really sacrificed something great here. Especially as a reader who just started actually buying comics (previous knowledge has come from Wikipedia and other internet stuff) I feel like I reallly missed out. I think the interaction between the Robins can be really dynamic...I want the "brother" relationship to be a part of that.

#102 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

@vernierhawk001 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

@vernierhawk001 said:

I actually think Damian presents, what I consider, a rare opportunity in comics: the chance to see a comic character literally grow up on the pages. I think it can be said that a good deal of sidekicks have "grown up" in the pages of the comics we read but Dick Grayson is the only other character I think we have really seen grow in as much detail as we have had over the years( Robin to TT to Nightwing to Outsiders to Bludhaven to being Batman...). I think introducing Damian so young and having him undergo the character progression I foresee him going through will be a treat. Only thing I don't like about the character is that DC has seemed to have given him Tim's role in relation to being Dick's "little brother" in N52. I don't mind them being close but not at the expense of the Tim Drake connection

I agree, though I also think we got to see Wally grow up to the same extent as Dick.

Tim Drake as a character has pretty much been assassinated since Flashpoint, though I think Damian's relationship with Dick is similar but still different. Tim and Dick have always been straight up brothers. Dick and Damian have that, but in a way it's deeper because Dick's the only person Damian considers to be his friend, and even later will still have been his first friend and the first person to really give him a chance to grow and become something more. He really stepped up and took on that father role for Damian while Bruce was "gone" and due to that i'd say he should realistically be far closer to Damian than Bruce. With Tim, that wasn't necessary as he had a father and then he had a mentor. Damian had neither. Tim and Dick could still be close if the writers chose to have them really interact.

Personally I didn't even care for Damian when he was first introduced, but he's grown on me. And a lot of it has to do with his stint as Robin with Dick, because that's where we saw the real growth. He goes from this self entitled kid who does whatever he wants to a boy trying to earn his father's respect and position at his side, and I think the writing's been great for the most part and that it all came to a head where he chose to follow Dick as Robin instead of his fanatical mother. (She's really gone off the deep end since the old days.) What I really appreciate is that no writer ever tried to make him into something he wasn't, like how when they first appeared both Jason and Tim were carrying traits of Dick Grayson. Damian's always stood apart from the others. He has both good and bad traits and neither side is ever really downplayed, at the same time it's made abundantly clear that despite all his skills he really is just a small 10 year old boy in a vast universe, and that he has to deal with things that most kids wouldn't be able to handle.

Very well written, sir. I am actually not a huge Flash reader so I wouldn't know if we saw him grow up as much. I mean, I know he went from side kick to hero (and took his mentor's role before Dick ever thought of becoming Batman, right?). But has Wally's character undergone the same character evolution as Dick? I honestly don't know.

And what you said about how DIck and Tim could still be close if writers chose...thats what really irks me. Why did they decide to change it? I understand trying to give Jason some kind of connection to the Family but still. Idk...seems like they really sacrificed something great here. Especially as a reader who just started actually buying comics (previous knowledge has come from Wikipedia and other internet stuff) I feel like I reallly missed out. I think the interaction between the Robins can be really dynamic...I want the "brother" relationship to be a part of that.

That's true, but unlike Dick he went through a lot of self doubt after becoming the Flash, a period of general overconfidence, further doubt in whether he deserved to be the Flash, whether or not he could surpass his mentor, taking on his mentor's own villains as well as his own gallery of rogues, discovering the source of speed for him and all other speedsters, joining the JLA of course as well as still working with a few iterations of the Titans, and finally getting married, which is where it all seemed to truly click for him. In that way, Wally West's character was always handled better than Dick's Grayson's. Excellent writing, as well as world building (Supporting cast, Rogues, and noted differences between him and his mentor). Like Dick, his mentor's shadow was always above him, but it never became the focus of his life. With Dick, there are times when writers have tried to downplay the Titan's in favor of Batman in Dick's life, that was never an issue with Wally. So while Dick went through more costumes and names than Wally to get to take over his mentor, Wally's journey was just as long, if not longer, and definitely more consistently developed, and at his height there was no question he'd surpassed Barry Allen. (As you can tell he's one of my favorite characters, 2nd only to Dick Grayson in the DCU actually lol)

In general a lot of unnecessary changes were made to Dick and Tim after Flashpoint (Making a thread on Dick about it now actually) I think that's it's not too late for the Dick/Tim bond to be salvaged though. True Tim and Jason have some kind of friendly/not enemy thing going on but they also haven't been shown to be best friends either. With Tim so far away with the Titans and Dick in Gotham permanently it could just be that there really hasn't been time for them to interact. I think that perhaps after this Joker event there could be a chance for them to interact more. If the family really is left fractured, Dick could step up to pull them all back together, which of course could lead to him visiting Tim and his little band of "Titans".

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