Off My Mind: Can Villains Turn Good? Daken Edition

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Posted by G-Man (34048 posts) - - Show Bio
Daken is about to facing a choice. We've seen him on the fence between good and bad. It mostly came down to he hated his father, Wolverine. He blamed Wolverine for the death of his mother and was also raised to hate him. They eventually come to a sort of agreement that Romulus is the blame for many things. When it looked like Wolverine and Daken might be reaching an agreement in going after Romulus, Daken accepted Norman's offer to join the Dark Avengers so he could tick off Wolverine. 
 
In Dark Wolverine #85, the first part of "Reckoning" begins where Daken teams up with Wolverine in the hopes of fulfilling what he believes is his destiny. He feels it's his place to become the new "Romulus." With the release of the solicit information on June's issue #87, it doesn't look like things will go according to plan.

“IDLE HANDS”
Betrayed by his father, cut off from his destiny, Daken now faces an uncertain future. What is he supposed to be now? With the pantheon of Marvel heroes stepping out of darkness and into the light, there seems only one choice…

Could this mean that Daken will try to be a "good guy" now? That would be a big mistake. If he did decide to go that route, what would really set him apart from Wolverine? The other day I mentioned Magneto riding the fence between good and evil as well. You could even argue that Sinestro is facing a similar situation in being a good guy or a bad guy. I've mentioned characters like Venom and Sabretooth trying to play on the good side. You can even look at Juggernaut or Bane (from Batman). It seems when the characters play nice, they loose part of their character and become a little...boring. 
 


Does that mean bad is good? Not necessarily. Often when a villain tries becoming a hero, it feels as if they're lost and are struggling to find their way. Maybe it just becomes harder to make a former villain interesting. When everything about the characters' motivation was being evil, turning over a new leaf often doesn't deliver as much to their story. I think Daken could be an interesting character. I don't think he needs to be a pure villain but making him a hero takes away everything that he was. That is what makes him a "Dark" Wolverine. Becoming a hero would make him too similar to Wolverine. We already have X-23 but she at least has her own story and struggles. Daken being good is just not something I really want to see. What would be next, Wolverine and Daken going to the park to play catch?
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#1 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

This is completly of topic but I learned that his name is pronounced Daw-ken and it's japanese for mut or mongrel.

#2 Posted by welshguy (197 posts) - - Show Bio

First off, he should get a decent haircut.

#3 Posted by Roninidas (383 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they should kill the character off. 
#4 Posted by Jotham (4564 posts) - - Show Bio
@Roninidas said:
" I think they should kill the character off.  "
Let's just retcon him out of existence.
#5 Posted by Roninidas (383 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jotham:
Agreed.  Horrible Idea. 
#6 Edited by Harlekin (680 posts) - - Show Bio

I think none of us have to worry about Daken being "good"
Also killing characters in mainstream comics is stupid. The only thing worst is bring them back.

#7 Posted by MrCipher (276 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahhhhh, I'm enjoying this thread lol. It always seems purile and contrived to have the "son of" and "daughter of" characters we like. I haven't been interested in the offspring of a comic book or other character since I was in 10th grade. 
Nice to see that in some fashion, others agree with my take on characters like Daken - great name by the way but a horribly concieved character.
Literary characters are immortal, a clever writer can put them through all sorts of fits and trials without ever having to approach the offspring caveat.
#8 Posted by Jotham (4564 posts) - - Show Bio
@MrCipher said:
" I haven't been interested in the offspring of a comic book or other character since I was in 10th grade. "
Who was that character?
#9 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3554 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken strikes me as a character that will eventually lose popularity and actually die and never be revived. They already have X-23 who has a much more interesting story. Daken's entire existence is as Dark Wolverine. Even without the costume or the title. There are just too many Wolverine-esque characters. I'd easily take X-23 over Daken.
 
I'm just sick of the whole Oedipus Rex Complex they having going on in Marvel comics recently. It seems like every son of some hero is after to kill his father. It's a theme that is quite boring, because it never feels really justified. It's always based upon some kind of 'misunderstanding'.

#10 Posted by Marshal Victory (677 posts) - - Show Bio
@welshguy said:
"First off, he should get a decent haircut. "

I belive Mr. George Thorogood says it best here .. 
  
   
:)
#11 Posted by NeoMantis (40 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, on a personality level Daken is nothing like his father. Wolverine is a wild animal; Daken is a scheming manipulator. Well, a homicidal scheming manipulator. He doesn't have that much of a history yet but he seems to have a decent potential to grow into an interesting character. If you want to talk about redundant characters, X-23 seems like way more of a Wolverine clone (in every sense of the word) to me.
 
While I agree that the "son of" trope is tired and overused, that in itself should not be used as a basis for dismissing characters.

#12 Edited by mimschkin (626 posts) - - Show Bio

When characters do Heel Face Turns, I think it's ok if it actually feels like a natural part of the character development (an example, though not comic related, would be Cordelia from Buffy. Though not 'evil', she was definitely a different character back when the series began, then she began showing her softer side). But if they just do it to make a character 'more interesting' and just to put him/her into the limelight, then it's not so good.
According to this Sorting Algorithm of Face Heel Turning, the likelihood of Daken becoming good is 4.95 (that's by my interpretation of the character, I don't actually read any Daken related stuff). I think the scale goes up to 5, ha ha.

#13 Posted by sora_thekey (8175 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:
" Daken strikes me as a character that will eventually lose popularity and actually die and never be revived. They already have X-23 who has a much more interesting story. Daken's entire existence is as Dark Wolverine. Even without the costume or the title. There are just too many Wolverine-esque characters. I'd easily take X-23 over Daken.
 
I'm just sick of the whole Oedipus Rex Complex they having going on in Marvel comics recently. It seems like every son of some hero is after to kill his father. It's a theme that is quite boring, because it never feels really justified. It's always based upon some kind of 'misunderstanding'. "
I wouldn't mind seeing a title with just Wolverine, Daken and X-23 (Maybe even Deathstrike)...
Moderator
#14 Edited by Decept-O (7277 posts) - - Show Bio

So, essentially Dakken has been trying to break the chains between himself and his supposed Daddy Wolverine?   
 
Hhhmmm... 
 
  
   
IT HAD TO BE DONE.   
 
#15 Posted by Namor1987 (1889 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken should go good but be like X-23 (kinda) in that he struggles with what's morally right & socially & what Romulus & his natural instincts are & what he truly is from his conception. HE'S A NATURAL BORN KILLER & SHOULD EMBRACE THAT. He needs to find that gray area the one we call anti-hero & choose that or just join X-Force that would be sweet plus he could kill all he wanted there

#16 Posted by Aerik (68 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a douchebag and it's not like his father is all hero. Still kills and chops.

#17 Posted by skaarason (683 posts) - - Show Bio

he is for sure my favorite marvel character right now , and for sure would love for him to stick to his dark wolverine gimmick , as good guy , bad guy or ant-hero i dont care just keep him around !!!!! 

#18 Posted by Crackdown (604 posts) - - Show Bio

Send him to he Bahama's! 
 
 
Hey, it worked for Roderick Kingsley

#19 Posted by EdwardWoods (76 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken I...I kinda like as an Anti-Wolverine. He also doesnt seem like a 're-deemable charecter' to me either (Ala, Punisher:The List) I think my main problem with Daken is his backstory, which doesnt grab me (I was/still am totally hoping for a LoganXMystique kid from the House of M) that and X-23 fills a nice spot of a young Wolverine in training IMO.

#20 Posted by Archetype (731 posts) - - Show Bio
@G-Man said:

"Daken being good is just not something I really want to see."

I couldn't agree more.His place in the Marvel U should be similar to that of Mystique.She typically is a villain killing people and scheming away even if she joins some good guys she is always scheming.Daken should always be looking out for his best interest because that's who he is, a self-important conniving loner though he does also work in a team but that might have been unique to the DAs because of who they are and what they were allowed to do.Anyway I agree...
#21 Edited by DEADPOOL (2709 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally love the idea of a powerful enemy becoming a powerful ally, however I find that they sometimes become weaker when they turn good and it does rob the hero(es) of a good enemy (unless of course they have more good enemies, lol).
 
I agree though that Daken is too similar to Wolverine and X-23, at least powers-wise; but he's more of a sinister and manipulative version of Wolverine. I was also hoping that Daken wouldn't get metal bones so that he'd stand out from Wolverine and X-23. 
I will say that Wolverine has kinda become watered down over the years, he used to be a dangerous loner that nobody really trusted or liked and had questionable methods, but now he has become almost the exact opposite of what he used to be (since becoming a Marvel icon). Daken could easily be like the old Wolverine if they wrote him correctly, which would set him apart.
 

@Mr. Dead Pool

said:

" This is completly of topic but I learned that his name is pronounced Daw-ken and it's japanese for mut or mongrel. "

Well I did know it was Japanese and had an elongated "A" sound, but I didn't know what it meant, thanks.
#22 Posted by Gylan Thomas (2727 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken's a great example of lazy character invention. 
Form the same factory as Supergirl, Superboy, Batgirl/ Batwoman, She-Hulk...the list goes on.
We've even got X-23. WOLVERINE GIRL so why keep Wolverine boy around too? 
Unless it is as a villain he's just surpless to reqirements.

#23 Posted by jstarzyk (318 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they should give Wolverine his title back and get rid of the other two.

#24 Posted by MrCipher (276 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jotham:
Considering that 15 years old was 23 years ago for me, I honestly can't remember exactly who the character was, what genre or book it might have been in. But I do remember that since late high school, I always disliked the convenience of a writer using a son, daughter or other offspring to make a "cooler", or more "evil", or "darker" version of a particular character. The entire concept seems especially crude and purile at this point in my life.
#25 Posted by Emerald Warrior (182 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO the same thing The Iron Patriot and Venom should do.... Keep going as another team like the Avengers only more bad ass!!! But yeah, they should reform!!! 

#26 Posted by The Devil Tiger (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't know, at worse, he will be a recurrent good guys.  

At best, he will become something like a new sabertooth for Wolverine.

#27 Edited by Casket (311 posts) - - Show Bio

 
@Mr. Dead Pool said:

" This is completly of topic but I learned that his name is pronounced Daw-ken and it's japanese for mut or mongrel. "

 
 
Yep pronounced Da-Ken I think it was  
 
less 'w' and more Da
 
I know some Japanese, I can get around in Japanese on the streets of Tokyo and in the schools and factories so I can kinda explain how things are without bullsh*tting you guys so much
Japanese have a very simple pronunciation , its the writing and understanding their anceint writing that is the difficult not the speaking, not the pronunciation.
 Everything is pretty easy to speak and pronounce, every word is made of simple syllables 
a   ii   u   e   oh   あ い う え お 
ka key koo ke ko か き く け こ
ma me mu mey mo ま み む め も
da  di  du  de  do だ ぢ づ で ど 
Bla Bla etc etc Simple words, you get the picture so I'm not gonna bore you with the whole alphabet
 
The funny form of writing typed above is hiragana, the Japanese modern expressions, new names for foreign places, modern objects are probably wrote using hiragana. All modern words are probably worte with one of 3 alphabets the first hiragana, second alphabet katakana or the third romanized japanese
Their old words for ancient cities, old words like dog, ship, rice, river are all described using the old kanji which is like ancient Chinese, is wrote like crazy calligraphy pictogram and comes from an ancient form of writing that literally has thousands of different alphabetical characters.
 Thankfully learning it isn't as impossible as it sounds and what the Japanese often do is combine some simple syllable concepts to make another word
For Example they might combine Love (ai) + Dog (inu/ken) and that will make another word = "Pet"
Or they might combine the words Fire + Mountain to make a new word = Volcano
 Most Japanese names and complex terms are just combination of simpler "words" or a combination of kanji

 The Da だ part of his name suggests something bad, something useless, like bad writing, foolishness, lying or maybe even b*stardly
 The Japanese kanji is probably most accurate ' 駄 ' as the Chinese have no simplified their writing into 
驮 .
 Like I was saying Da-Bun, mu-Dabone, Da-Ben, Da-Me are all used to describe bad things.
Its not the name you would give a child if you loved them

The Ken ケン part of of his name describes the beast, the dog but it is a little unique, as I recall the Japanese word normally use the term 'inu' so the term 'Ken' to describe a dog is kinda antiquated or archaic. 
 犬
Ken and its alternate descriptions Ken-shi,  Ken-ennonaka, kyo-Ken can be used to describe an attack dog, a beast, a canines tooth or describe people butting heads or to be fighting like cats and dogs. 
Again the name suggests Da-Ken didn't really have parents who loved him, not really a loving name you w ould give to your child
Even though the girls Itsu and Natsumi were coming from a more modernized Japan, it still wasn't that modern socially and a lot of people might have looked down on the funny bloodline. A hairy foreginer with a quick temper knocking up a high class girl and having the kid grow up in a new post world war 2 Japan. Like I said the name is a funny one, maybe even an insult against his mixed heritage
Not a name you give to a kid you loved
but
Maybe something you might use to describe stray mongrel dogs roaming the streets
#28 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

...?

#29 Posted by Green Skin (2932 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I hate the character,  they should always have him as a villian.  Logan, X-23 and Daken should never be on the same side.

#30 Posted by Treason (228 posts) - - Show Bio

i think Daken should become a mercenary for hire, maybe he should join agency x that way we see him teaming up with the great and awesomely powerful Bob ageant of hydra -_-
#31 Posted by goldenkey (2927 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally like it when some villians become good guys.  I would like to see Daken become good because his story reflects Wolverine in the sense of being brainwashed into a killer.  Wolverine with Weapon X and Daken by Romulus.  Come to think of it, both by Romulus.  I love the puppetmaster type stories, I thought it was a great way that they brought back the green goblin, and Iike the Romulus character.  I hoped they made him of a bad ass tho, when Sabretooth acted afraid when he heard Romulus name it gave him that extra creepiness.  I also think its a failed attempt with Magneto because one day he's good, then bad, then misunderstood, now just annoying.  With Daken, we can see the growing period from animal to honorable warrior like Wolverine.  Wolverine isn't the crazy guy he used to be in a sense he works well with others now to a point.  Even a leader in his own right, but we can go thru with Daken what we did with Wolverine way back when.  Putting a straight up killer with the hero's.   They were trying to do it with Sabretooth for a little while having him with the X-men, then with X-Factor.  I hope they don't kill Romulus, even if they do he'll be back, and this time with adamantium, just to make him that much more threatening.   I believe it's why they showed he was faking his claws before so they can bring him back with the metal.  It made Sabretooth more powerful and it made sense.  I don't know enough about Bane aside from Knightfall to make an opinion.
#32 Posted by Dr. Maxwell (661 posts) - - Show Bio

They didn't make Bane good after Knightfall, they just made him more of a Bad ass by taking away the venom and having him build himself to perfection

#33 Posted by Nyogtha (353 posts) - - Show Bio
@NeoMantis: If you give any similarity with any of the "lupine" characters (THANK YOU once again loeb), I'll just say the Feral ones. He reminds me of Wildchild. Mind games, quick and agile. Wolverine is kinda cumbersome, not as much as Sabretooth but you have to admit he takes more shots than dodges.
#34 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2244 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing I was told at my animation school is that bad guys, most of the time, don't see themselves as bad guys.  They can justify what they are doing, or don't see it as wrong anyway.  They can look at other bad guys and see they are bad, but they usually don't see themselves as bad.  So I could see several bad guys, written right, doing good things or trying to put their "evil" pasts behind them.  As long as it fits with their character, the same way that a good guy can cross over and do some bad things, like killing someone when they feel like its justified.  If that is done right as well, I can see either happening all the time.

#35 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4799 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he should be like Namor... not a bad guy but not a good guy... jus doing what he wants to do...

#36 Posted by Gothic Storm (842 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the 'loner' idea... but then again that was Wolverine's shtick for a long time (until suddenly everyone wants Wolvie on their team! He should really start charging these groups ;) )
 
I hated it when they tried to sell Sabretooth off as a 'reformed good guy'. X-23 is a much more interesting character and I really like the fact that Wolverine sort of has a daughter... which he needs much more than a so-called 'son'. We've seen a guy who is a loner and fights the bad guys with a junior male version of himself running around... his name is Batman.

#37 Posted by cmaprice (809 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the point of Daken wearing a Logan mask? The tattoo is a dead giveaway. ;)

#38 Posted by Subject 30 (205 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's going to take a serious threat to the universe and Daken himself to change him to the good side, and even then, it's not destined to last.

#39 Posted by Roninidas (383 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Hells Bells since other people are doing it... I say Kill Daken... In the Heat of the Moment... 
 
  
  
#40 Posted by Bats (147 posts) - - Show Bio

If watching professional wrestling as a kid has taught me one thing - it's that people love it when a bad guy turns good.
I remember thinking the Undertaker was awesome - and when he turned good it was the coolest thing ever.
Stone Cold, The Rock....list goes on and on.
Comic book characters might be different story though.
To be honest - I sorta thought Daken was cool at first - now he just kinda skeeves me out.
To see him turn to the good side would be an interesting story....just don't know how long it would last.

#41 Posted by Illyana Rasputin (2771 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Daken! He's a rogue, and enigmatic. I love that. I also love how intimidates others with his "proclivities". He is a very unique character.

#42 Posted by They Killed Cap! (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he is a great supporting charecter and would make a good anti hero.
#43 Posted by advocatefish (142 posts) - - Show Bio

I still pronounce it Day-Kin. Sounds better. 
 
Now i dont know much about Daken, just from what i get in dark avengers, but calling his comic Dark Wolverine certainly doesnt help in distinguishing him from his father. Though im sure that name is just to bring people in.
#44 Posted by xerox_kitty (15762 posts) - - Show Bio

Call my cynical, but I'd rather see Daken dead than as a hero.... In fact, I'd rather see him dead than as a villain as well ;)

Moderator
#45 Posted by Dakens son (433 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool said:
" This is completly of topic but I learned that his name is pronounced Daw-ken and it's japanese for mut or mongrel. "
not exactly daw-ken sounds  more like DaA-ken,the japanese have a tendency to use "A" that way in their language
#46 Posted by Dakens son (433 posts) - - Show Bio
@Harlekin said:
" I think none of us have to worry about Daken being "good" Also killing characters in mainstream comics is stupid. The only thing worst is bring them back. 
 
True!but in case of Norman Osborn it was a great idea
#47 Edited by waruikumo (357 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr. Dead Pool:  
   駄犬 or
  だけん  or
  Da Ke N - the capitalizations mark the 3 characters used in Japanese.  Da Ken, I'm pretty sure the annunciation, is heavy with Da, then light with Ke then heavy with the N.  But the Ke and N are combined to an extent, since the N rounds out whatever character preceeds it.  So phonetically  Da-ken would be pretty close ( the A is like how you would ahhhhhh at the doctor, but shorter of course).  If there was a W there would need to be another vowel after the W, unless there was a vocal stop (which there isnt). 
 
That said, I think the character has potential, but he needs at bare minimum to lose the frat boy tribal tat's.  Why a half japanese half canadian would legitimately have polynesian tattoos is far beyond me.  Especially when the Yakuza culture has such IMO bad ass tattoo's.  
 
Doesn't he have a healing factor?
#48 Posted by Derfla.Y.Levolcmp (22 posts) - - Show Bio

God I hate Daken.  So much.

#49 Posted by DEGRAAF (7881 posts) - - Show Bio

i really like Daken. I could see him being a good guy. 
 
The thing i didnt get is that he has always been about his plans and him choosing his own life and life style and trying to not do what ever one else wants him to do but first he pictures himself killing Norman (which seemed like what he wanted to do) then the fates puts him back in time or something to do it over and make a different decision so then he chooses to be the literal homosexual hero and save his men and bullseye which seemed at first like what the fates wanted but they state it was unexpected so then they send him back in time again to change his choices once again and he chooses to just walk away from the battle and let his men died. he seems to just do what the fates wanted. I thought either of those first two choices would be good stories for him but to keep going back is just dumb.  
 
I think he kinda wants to be a hero but he definitely wants to be a god and makes his name known no matter which side of the line he lands on

#50 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow whats so bad about the tribal tattoos?  The way I see it if anyone has the right to have them it's people like him.  His travelled the world and he's in his 60's.  There are a multiple of reason why his tattoos could be aloowed despite his healing factor.  For all we know romulus could have done it.  I think wolverines 100+ is the new 40 and Daken's 60+ is the new 20's, but they both come from radical times.  I'm just saying the look they have really isn't that hard to understand.  I think Daken's  a good character, his powers are dangerous and he makes wolverine start to look a little Dated to me.  I'd like to see what the writers do with him.

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