Should Cyclops take responsibility for the actions of the P5?

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#1 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

AVX is coming to an end and in both the real world and in the Marvel U we've seen Scott Summers being blamed for actions that weren't his own. When Captain America went to Hulk for help in defeating the X-men he made sure to specify that it was Cyclops in particular that had gone bad, not his teammates. When Namor was bringing Wakanda down Cap once again called Cyke out in particular for the destruction. There is no question that when AVX ends and Cyclops has been defeated that he will be held responsible for his entire teams actions, but should he? There is the notion that the captain should go down with the ship and as the leader of the Phoenix 5 should Cyclops claim responsibility for the things he didn't do or order to be done? He did lead his team of X-men to the moon to combat the Avengers leading to them being bombarded by cosmic rays and become the fantastic 5 granted the divided power of the phoenix but since the trip was his call does that make everything they did with the power his fault whether or not he was their leader? And if so how much at fault is Iron Man, the one who split the force in the first place? I've seen multiple people say things along the lines of "Of course he's going to jail, look at all the lives he's ruined and people he's killed as The Dark Phoenix!" bur Cyclops himself has only killed 2 people personally with his power one of which was Mr. Sinister and he hasn't really ruined anyone's life. His people have killed and ruined lives with their powers however and should he take the blame he's getting for that because he's honor bound to as a leader or should he only be blamed for what he's done with his own hands?

#2 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

Should he be blamed for something he did under the possession of a cosmic entity? No, but he should be held accountable for letting his views about Hope cloud his judgement over how dangerous the PF is and so should the rest of the X-Men that sided with him in that. I'm sure Scott will take responsibility as leader, but we choose who we follow and everyone who fought for him is equally to blame for what happened in my opinion.

#3 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

No cause he wasn't the one that condoned let alone even knew of most of their activities. While Namor wanted to attack the Avengers Scott said no. When Emma was using blood as a sauce for their steak, Cyclops' face was filled with disgust. He's been stable in his mission and morality despite being corrupted. The only thing he really did was shoot at Cap in an arguable position of who was right or wrong and killed Xavier after multiple warnings of telling them to stop and both teams ganging up and attacking him along with just having absorbed the entire Phoenix Force.

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#4 Posted by White Mage (18740 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

No cause he wasn't the one that condoned let alone even knew of most of their activities. While Namor wanted to attack the Avengers Scott said no. When Emma was using blood as a sauce for their steak, Cyclops' face was filled with disgust. He's been stable in his mission and morality despite being corrupted. The only thing he really did was shoot at Cap in an arguable position of who was right or wrong and killed Xavier after multiple warnings of telling them to stop and both teams ganging up and attacking him along with just having absorbed the entire Phoenix Force.

..............that's about it.

#5 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

With what the Scarlet Witch got away with and Jean Grey, absolutely not.

#6 Posted by Illuminatus (9509 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone just lynch this vindictive tool already. Getting so tired of walking into my local shop and seeing his dumbass costume all over the place.

#7 Posted by SC (13149 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he (Cyclops, the character) should take a degree of responsibility for the actions of the other characters, but only in the sense that he was the leader of the X-Men and the self appointed leader of the Mutant Race. Even as they got extra power he still had authority over them as much as he had prior, and they presumably conceded authority towards him, even if they were all incredibly powerful to relatively close levels. That and Hope was his pet project, and his belief that Phoenix would be aiding the mutant race. Believe that seemed to have a basis in faith rather than reason, explaining why you know, he never really explained much as far as Hope and the Phoenix. At the same time taking responsibility is different to being blamed for everything. I don't remember it being in Cyclops plan to inherit the Phoenix Force himself, and once possessed by the Phoenix Force how much control and free choice can one exert? Given how smart and on the ball Cyclops is suppose to be, and granted he got new powers that should increase his capacity for knowledge and understanding why did he fail so bad at anticipating the actions of others around him, allies and enemies alike? Either the Phoenix Force impairs your abilities while giving you god powers or AVX writers aren't so good when it comes to creating organic conflict or they simply don't care to create organic conflict. He shouldn't be the only burdened by responsibility either, Captain America I think should be too. So do I think many of the X-Men need to as well for being so damn naive and basically blindly following Cyclops as far as some of his decisions. Not all his decisions, just some big ones, like again Hope and again Phoenix. Lot of Avengers acting like hypocrites as well. For me? You have so many supposedly smart and heroic characters screwing up so badly with choices and I stop thinking about things from a character perspective and start thinking creative teams...

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#8 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

Should the Avengers take responsibility for Scarlet Witch?

#9 Posted by White Mage (18740 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

Should the Avengers take responsibility for Scarlet Witch?

Nope...they're too good for that. She's officially under "The Life Force" defense...

#10 Posted by johnkmccubbin91 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio

They should all take responsibility. Emma in New Avengers showed that they had some form of control saying they were trying to do good. Plus also Cyclops didn't want to destroy the Phoenix Force in the first place after knowing it was coming to earth and what it could do. So yes he should. so should the others. Also Scarlet Witch should have been dealt with instead of basically forgetting what she did. Although besides AvX she has kept out of the way since House of M (besides some appearances)

#11 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

@White Mage said:

@John Valentine said:

Should the Avengers take responsibility for Scarlet Witch?

Nope...they're too good for that. She's officially under "The Life Force" defense...

Precisely.

#13 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

Should he be blamed for something he did under the possession of a cosmic entity? No, but he should be held accountable for letting his views about Hope cloud his judgement over how dangerous the PF is and so should the rest of the X-Men that sided with him in that. I'm sure Scott will take responsibility as leader, but we choose who we follow and everyone who fought for him is equally to blame for what happened in my opinion.

I agree on all of that.

While everyone in the Phoenix 5 (keep thinking of Family Force 5) is responsible for their own actions, his leadership caused to escalate this situation.

#14 Posted by Onemoreposter (4065 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

No cause he wasn't the one that condoned let alone even knew of most of their activities. While Namor wanted to attack the Avengers Scott said no. When Emma was using blood as a sauce for their steak, Cyclops' face was filled with disgust. He's been stable in his mission and morality despite being corrupted. The only thing he really did was shoot at Cap in an arguable position of who was right or wrong and killed Xavier after multiple warnings of telling them to stop and both teams ganging up and attacking him along with just having absorbed the entire Phoenix Force.

#15 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33634 posts) - - Show Bio

This mini has made me start to really hate Captain America 

#16 Posted by Osian2 (455 posts) - - Show Bio

There's only one thing that he should be blamed for and that's the death of Xavier. Even then he gave Xavier multiple warnings about fighting back if he didn't stop and you could argue it was in self defence seeing as Scott was attacked in his home and the first thing Charles tried to do was shut down his mind.

The actions of the others shouldn't be blamed on Scott or it will be a double standard. For example Namor drowning Wakanda, Captain America knows Namor better than anyone so shouldn't he have expected something like this? Namor is an Invader and has shown more loyalty and respect for Steve so should he also be held responsible?

Another example is Wanda. Her de-powering the mutant race led to several deaths but has she payed for her crimes? She hasn't and most likely won't. Even though most of the Avengers rejected her in issue 0 of AVX they'll be welcoming her back in Marvel Now and will be a part of the Uncanny Avengers.

Scott didn't want the phoenix, it was forced on him by Iron Man. You could argue that he later denied it to Hope but for all we know he wasn't able to resist the power. Hope herself felt like the force was calling to her.

Scott will probably take the blame without objecting though just like when X-force was discovered and he told Storm that he forced Wolverine and the others into it.

#17 Posted by Osian2 (455 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

This mini has made me start to really hate Captain America

After watching the Avengers I was tempted to pick up some of their titles but AVX has changed my mind completely :( I'll wait for Marvel now and see how Hickmans Avengers fare.

#18 Posted by Raiiyn (3556 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

I think he (Cyclops, the character) should take a degree of responsibility for the actions of the other characters, but only in the sense that he was the leader of the X-Men and the self appointed leader of the Mutant Race. Even as they got extra power he still had authority over them as much as he had prior, and they presumably conceded authority towards him, even if they were all incredibly powerful to relatively close levels. That and Hope was his pet project, and his belief that Phoenix would be aiding the mutant race. Believe that seemed to have a basis in faith rather than reason, explaining why you know, he never really explained much as far as Hope and the Phoenix. At the same time taking responsibility is different to being blamed for everything. I don't remember it being in Cyclops plan to inherit the Phoenix Force himself, and once possessed by the Phoenix Force how much control and free choice can one exert? Given how smart and on the ball Cyclops is suppose to be, and granted he got new powers that should increase his capacity for knowledge and understanding why did he fail so bad at anticipating the actions of others around him, allies and enemies alike? Either the Phoenix Force impairs your abilities while giving you god powers or AVX writers aren't so good when it comes to creating organic conflict or they simply don't care to create organic conflict. He shouldn't be the only burdened by responsibility either, Captain America I think should be too. So do I think many of the X-Men need to as well for being so damn naive and basically blindly following Cyclops as far as some of his decisions. Not all his decisions, just some big ones, like again Hope and again Phoenix. Lot of Avengers acting like hypocrites as well. For me? You have so many supposedly smart and heroic characters screwing up so badly with choices and I stop thinking about things from a character perspective and start thinking creative teams...

Exactement.

#19 Posted by TDK_1997 (14902 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah.

#20 Posted by One_Eye (783 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: @TDK_1997: @Osian2: @Jonny_Anonymous: @ApatheticAvenger: @SC: @BlackArmor: It's funny as I was considering starting a similar thread. Both SC and the OP have touched on the exact same optics that I would raise. Anyway, I agree that as a leader, Cyclops should take some degree of responsibility given his position and choices as leader, however, having a cosmic fire-chicken thrust upon you and your team I imagined would do things to warp one's thought process. As for the Phoenix Five as a whole I'll say that they shouldn't be completely in the blame given that they weren't in their stable frames of mind.((stable for them anyway...)) If Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, and Wolverine can be forgiven for the acts committed while they were brainwashed, hypnotized, or whatever then so should the Phoenix Five.

I won't say that Tony should blamed for anything as much as his role should be held as a factor in consideration of the Phoenix Five. Steve won't face any punishment given that he was under orders from the government although he did keep swatting at the proverbial hornets nest.Wolverine won't face any consequences be it jail time or de-characterization whether it's because of his status as a cashcow or whatever....((even if he did try to kill Hope against Caps' orders..)) Scarlet Witch received a get out of jail free card due to the whole Life Force shenanigans.

With that said,; I've come to believe that it's everyone's fault. As I've said in another thread, anyone that threw a punch, shot a beam, blast, iceball,threw a shield, whatever, has some blame in the matter. Given the lack of communication between the two teams, both of them being knowledgeable of the coming of the Phoenix Force, Logan having a former host on his team and yet he refused to consult with them, Captain America shows up demanding Hope((twice)), and still no one tried to effectively consult with each other as far as the two teams are concerned.

At least with Gillen at the helm there's promise that we'll see a well-balanced story where all factors are considered.

((P.S. STOP letting Tony use his "Buster" series of armors in battles! They NEVER work, only cause more destruction, and tend to look just plain awful. Although, the Avengers seem dead-set on repeating in effective strategies anyway.-_-))

#21 Posted by Mutant God (3023 posts) - - Show Bio

should - probably not, but hes going to just to take the blame off the entire mutant race.

#22 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

@One_Eye: I agree, I think both sides are at fault but in regards to the thread it says should he be reprimanded for what the P5 did and I say no. Other things yes, he did attack Cap but Cap also showed up on their door. One of them could have said ok we need to stop and calm the f*ck down. We can come up with a reasonable plan to help give everyone what they want. Just because Namor went Rogue should Scott be judged because of that ? No, he had no knowledge. Did Scott know Emma went and brain fried a random guy for accidentally killing a mutant decades ago? No. Should Scott take some blame for being just as dense as everyone else has? Yes. Should Cap take some blame for giving the X-Men an ultimatum vs actually counselling with them? Yes. Both sides have been extreme over the issue but I've already stated who I have sided with in the matter but I have no problem admitting X-Men have a fault cause they are not completely innocent in this as well even though I still see them as the victims here more than the attackers.

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#23 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@One_Eye: I agree, I think both sides are at fault but in regards to the thread it says should he be reprimanded for what the P5 did and I say no. Other things yes, he did attack Cap but Cap also showed up on their door. One of them could have said ok we need to stop and calm the f*ck down. We can come up with a reasonable plan to help give everyone what they want. Just because Namor went Rogue should Scott be judged because of that ? No, he had no knowledge. Did Scott know Emma went and brain fried a random guy for accidentally killing a mutant decades ago? No. Should Scott take some blame for being just as dense as everyone else has? Yes. Should Cap take some blame for giving the X-Men an ultimatum vs actually counselling with them? Yes. Both sides have been extreme over the issue but I've already stated who I have sided with in the matter but I have no problem admitting X-Men have a fault cause they are not completely innocent in this as well even though I still see them as the victims here more than the attackers.

So.. Cyclops only takes responsibility for being "dense"? That still puts less blame on his plate than the others. Especially when his "density" is justified.

#24 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: Yes, dense. Just like 95% of the people in this story have. They blew something that they could have had a phone call over to help each other out with. Neither Cap or Scott were sensible in the first issue and as I also stated, the X-Men are the victims here with the Avengers being more to blame but that doesn't exempt the X-men.

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#25 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

AVX is coming to an end and in both the real world and in the Marvel U we've seen Scott Summers being blamed for actions that weren't his own. When Captain America went to Hulk for help in defeating the X-men he made sure to specify that it was Cyclops in particular that had gone bad, not his teammates. When Namor was bringing Wakanda down Cap once again called Cyke out in particular for the destruction. There is no question that when AVX ends and Cyclops has been defeated that he will be held responsible for his entire teams actions, but should he? There is the notion that the captain should go down with the ship and as the leader of the Phoenix 5 should Cyclops claim responsibility for the things he didn't do or order to be done? He did lead his team of X-men to the moon to combat the Avengers leading to them being bombarded by cosmic rays and become the fantastic 5 granted the divided power of the phoenix but since the trip was his call does that make everything they did with the power his fault whether or not he was their leader? And if so how much at fault is Iron Man, the one who split the force in the first place? I've seen multiple people say things along the lines of "Of course he's going to jail, look at all the lives he's ruined and people he's killed as The Dark Phoenix!" bur Cyclops himself has only killed 2 people personally with his power one of which was Mr. Sinister and he hasn't really ruined anyone's life. His people have killed and ruined lives with their powers however and should he take the blame he's getting for that because he's honor bound to as a leader or should he only be blamed for what he's done with his own hands?

1 - The writers want to do damage control and try to push all the blame on Cyclops, while he deserves quite a bit of the blame, some of the events he has been given heat over are laughable. Namor going Godzilla on Wakanda and Emma using the residents of Utopia to live out her power trip fantasies really have been glossed over when they should be in a similar boat on abuses. the part that really incriminates Scott is that he was not possessed against his will by the Phoenix, he was openly and actively welcoming it, thinking he was going to somehow control it.

The whole situation makes no sense (and filled with terrible characterization throughout) from top to bottom, but as written, he deserves to go down.

2 - I keep seeing people trying to blame Iron Man for splitting the Phoenix Force into 5 parts, are you people for real?

First, the very idea that Iron Man and Pym can build a machine that can affect a major cosmic being in this way is hilarious, anything they built should do little more than annoy it for the briefest of moments.

Second, The GALAXY KILLING Phoenix is bearing down on you and you try a last ditch effort to stop it, are you really going to blame him that it did not work out? There is no way to know if things would be better or worse off if it never happened, but pushing the blame towards him makes zero sense.

3 - As the leader he has to take the blame of not only his actions, but those under his command. Again terrible writing has done him in, but as written his decisions have been debatable to terrible for a while now. It's in his best interest to go away and have the writers piss on someone else for a change.

#26 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

It doesn't matter if Cyclops was possessed.

Were the Avengers going to take that into account with The Sentry?

#27 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

It doesn't matter if Cyclops was possessed.

Were the Avengers going to take that into account with The Sentry?

They seem to have taken that into account with scarlet witch (who actually was under control).

#28 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29505 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

It doesn't matter if Cyclops was possessed.

Were the Avengers going to take that into account with The Sentry?

They seem to have taken that into account with scarlet witch (who actually was under control).

Their treatment of Scarlet Witch is bullsh*t compared to everyone else who was insane or under control.

#29 Posted by PassionFlower (960 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he absolutely should take responsibility just as the General is responsible for his troops. Plus he is more than a general he was their political leader as well.

#30 Posted by XsPectre28 (726 posts) - - Show Bio

no the avengers should because they are the ones that spilt the force in the first place..... hope prolly was never meant to take the force but it would have split automatically to the lights who are according to the phoenix force its children.... hope who has power over the lights would be able to control them because even thou they themselves have the force hope would be able to control them per her link to them so she would be the phoenix but only in mind as she controls the lights who would have taken the force.... the PF in five different bodies but with one mind seperate from all!!!!!!

#31 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

Someone just lynch this vindictive tool already. Getting so tired of walking into my local shop and seeing his dumbass costume all over the place.

#32 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not care anymore.

#33 Posted by Lvenger (20261 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops should definitely take responsibility for events preceding the P5 and the ridiculous idea of trying to use the Phoenix to restore the Mutant race rather than listen to the Avengers and work together to stop the planet destroying cosmic entity. That was stupid.

#34 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

If Cyclops needs to take responsibility, then Cable is ultimately responsible for Cyclop's actions. If Cable takes responsibilty, then Blaquesmith takes responsibility over him.

#35 Edited by lorex (955 posts) - - Show Bio

I have said this before it seems Marvel is throwing Cyclops under the bus by placing most of the blame on him directly which seems quite stupid. Characters being manipulated, influenced or outright controlled by someone or something else is not new in comics. I have a few examples. Jessica Jones was controlled by the Purple Man and while under his control she did his bidding. No one blames her for this. Jean Grey during the Dark Phoenix Saga destroyed an entire populated solar system killing billions. She has always gotten a pass for this action, except maybe from the Shi'ar and that was to try to contain the Phoenix not to blame Jean. More reciently during Fear Itself Ben Grimm was taken over by one of Serpants hammers and became Angrir Breaker of Souls going on a rampage killing people in the streets and later knocking down the Avengers tower. Though it is not stated offically that I can find I would think when a skyscraper fall like that thousands must have died. I dont remember seeing Ben arrested, put on trial or even questioned about this. All signs seem to point to Cyclops being held accountable for his actions.
 
That being said Cyclops was naive to think the Phoenix Force could be controlled. It cannot, at least not by someone alive and has not transitioned from mortality to the white hot room (look it up). I think the mutant fear that exists in the Marvel universe will result in Cyclops carrying most of the blame here. It would be nice of some of the so called heroes like Ben Grimm and others that have been manipulated or controlled by others speak up in Cyclops defense butI just don't see that happening. Cyclops should admit he was wrong about trying to use the Phoenix Force to control anything but thats it, as soon as the P5 came about his actions were not entirely under his control. Initially he set out to do good which is in character for Cyclops but over time darker impluses bubble to the surface. Illiana created a prison in a limbo, Namor partially destroyed a nation and Emma was forcing other mutants to worship her. I think Cyclops is going to be made the villian whether it makes sense ot not.

#36 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3214 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimately yes. Is he the only one at fault here? no, but this was a war to save the world. Cyclops, Logan, cap, Wanda, Namor, Emma etc. are all to blame here but It all comes down to Cyclops attacking Cap and LEADING his team into the battlefield and eventually they all go crazy with power. Steve could have handled this situation differently like calling Scott before showing up, but he was under orders from the government to stop the Phoenix before it gets to earth. Stark should not get any blame at all, he tried to stop the Phoenix but his plan backfired is all. My point is there are arguing points for both teams. the X-men were right but so were the Avengers and since the Avengers were working for the government that makes Cyclops the guy to blame for this mess and he killed Xavier there is no excuse for that. He shouldn't be the only one punished though, Namor, and IMO Wanda and a handful of others should be punished as well.

#37 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAmazingImmortalMan: Killing Xavier could be considered self defense. Attacking Captain America on Utopia, which is a sovereign nation, after saying "he wasn't asking" to take Hope, is justified as defense as well (Scott told him to leave, Cap said "he wasn't asking"). And Scott's naïveté with controlling the Phoenix could be blamed on Cable for telling him to use it in the first place (Scott was opposed to using the Phoenix too at first). The only responsibility that completely falls on Scott is invading Kun Lun (which American government can't touch him on that) and by proxy the actions of the other four Phoenix hosts (as the leader of Utopia). And ALL of this depends on Scott being wrong in the first place. What ever he does in issue twelve can be attributed to him having the entire Phoenix force within him.

In essense, if Scott is wrong than he has a pretty decent defense for the most part.

If he's right, than the blame completely falls on the Avengers.

#38 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3214 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: Interesting argument but I don't consider killing Xavier self defense though. Charles chose a side and tried to talk Scott out of his craziness and Scott refused. I did say Cap could have handled it better but than we wouldn't have AvX and l don't think Cyke should be the only one punished but that he should take the brunt of the punishment because that is what a leader is. If they were right Cyclops would be given the majority of the credit for leading the X-Men in this escapade, since he turned out to be Magneto 2.0 with PF than he should take most of the blame.

In essense, if Scott is wrong than he has a pretty decent defense for the most part.

If he's right, than the blame completely falls on the Avengers.

This is something I can agree with

#39 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAmazingImmortalMan said:

@soduh2: Interesting argument but I don't consider killing Xavier self defense though. Charles chose a side and tried to talk Scott out of his craziness and Scott refused. I did say Cap could have handled it better but than we wouldn't have AvX and l don't think Cyke should be the only one punished but that he should take the brunt of the punishment because that is what a leader is. If they were right Cyclops would be given the majority of the credit for leading the X-Men in this escapade, since he turned out to be Magneto 2.0 with PF than he should take most of the blame.

In essense, if Scott is wrong than he has a pretty decent defense for the most part.

If he's right, than the blame completely falls on the Avengers.

This is something I can agree with

Professor X's actions do parallel with Captain America because he was invading his mind trying to erase it if Cyclops wouldn't comply. He made the stupid mistake of emotionally provoking someone with the phoenix force (bring the X-men with him, and telling Cyke he was ashamed of him). Controlling the phoenix force wasn't that difficult to Cyclops because he usually keeps personal emotions in check (he's a control freak).

Xavier pushed him to kill AFTER invading his mind and finding out that he wouldn't comply to his/the Avengers demands.

Cyclops, as of yet, has not committed genocide. The only reason why we say he's Magneto 2.0 is because of his proactivity and his desire to have humanity respect and fear mutant kind. Otherwise, prior to this event, he wanted to acquire the respect and fear by making themselves the premier super hero team. In fact, Namor and Emma, mocked how idealistic he was.

#40 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7297 posts) - - Show Bio

When logical minds take into account that anything related to the "P5" and caused by the "P5" wasn't actually their fault, but actually, the self-proclaimed millionaire Tony Stark's fault, the answer's more than evident.

#41 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3214 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@TheAmazingImmortalMan said:

@soduh2: Interesting argument but I don't consider killing Xavier self defense though. Charles chose a side and tried to talk Scott out of his craziness and Scott refused. I did say Cap could have handled it better but than we wouldn't have AvX and l don't think Cyke should be the only one punished but that he should take the brunt of the punishment because that is what a leader is. If they were right Cyclops would be given the majority of the credit for leading the X-Men in this escapade, since he turned out to be Magneto 2.0 with PF than he should take most of the blame.

In essense, if Scott is wrong than he has a pretty decent defense for the most part.

If he's right, than the blame completely falls on the Avengers.

This is something I can agree with

Professor X's actions do parallel with Captain America because he was invading his mind trying to erase it if Cyclops wouldn't comply. He made the stupid mistake of emotionally provoking someone with the phoenix force (bring the X-men with him, and telling Cyke he was ashamed of him). Controlling the phoenix force wasn't that difficult to Cyclops because he usually keeps personal emotions in check (he's a control freak).

Xavier pushed him to kill AFTER invading his mind and finding out that he wouldn't comply to his/the Avengers demands.

Cyclops, as of yet, has not committed genocide. The only reason why we say he's Magneto 2.0 is because of his proactivity and his desire to have humanity respect and fear mutant kind. Otherwise, prior to this event, he wanted to acquire the respect and fear by making themselves the premier super hero team. In fact, Namor and Emma, mocked how idealistic he was.

Ok Xavier did invade his mind but it was in the middle of battle. A battle where not only are The Avengers fighting you but your own team as well. In battle you do what it takes to win, and the only stupid mistake Charles made was warning Scott and not just shut him down immediately.

I'm not saying he was completely at fault just that he should take most of the blame.

#42 Posted by Darksider555 (404 posts) - - Show Bio

basicly,in the begining of AvX,i hold him responsible for the first blow.But the thing is "his intentions were pure,but his hopes were naive"

#43 Posted by Lapsus (26 posts) - - Show Bio

A Little number of heroes can blame cyclops for what he did, this isn´t an excuse but the 90% in this comic are a bunch of jerks.

I´m going to laugh so much if Cyclops become the only responsible for this incident and people like Namor just walk away for destroy Wakanda.

is wrong in so many levels.

#44 Posted by mfundo (1622 posts) - - Show Bio

Umm, yes. So should the others.

#45 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

The Phoenix should be blamed

#46 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5894 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, the writers should be blamed for not taking the time to explore this subject on a deeper level and actually come up with situations that actually made sense in this event.

But on the topic, Cyclops should at least be blamed for believing that they can control the Phoenix Force. He has seen what the Phoenix Force had done to Jean Grey, so how come that subject was rarely brought up?

#47 Edited by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

In my opinion, the writers should be blamed for not taking the time to explore this subject on a deeper level and actually come up with situations that actually made sense in this event.

But on the topic, Cyclops should at least be blamed for believing that they can control the Phoenix Force. He has seen what the Phoenix Force had done to Jean Grey, so how come that subject was rarely brought up?

Except that's what the Avengers are doing right now. Seriously. They're taking Hope to be trained so that she can be the host of the Phoenix and save everyone. They just took Cyclops' plan and made it their own, while making him the villain and isolating him from his friends and family.

@TheAmazingImmortalMan said:

@soduh2 said:

@TheAmazingImmortalMan said:

@soduh2: Interesting argument but I don't consider killing Xavier self defense though. Charles chose a side and tried to talk Scott out of his craziness and Scott refused. I did say Cap could have handled it better but than we wouldn't have AvX and l don't think Cyke should be the only one punished but that he should take the brunt of the punishment because that is what a leader is. If they were right Cyclops would be given the majority of the credit for leading the X-Men in this escapade, since he turned out to be Magneto 2.0 with PF than he should take most of the blame.

In essense, if Scott is wrong than he has a pretty decent defense for the most part.

If he's right, than the blame completely falls on the Avengers.

This is something I can agree with

Professor X's actions do parallel with Captain America because he was invading his mind trying to erase it if Cyclops wouldn't comply. He made the stupid mistake of emotionally provoking someone with the phoenix force (bring the X-men with him, and telling Cyke he was ashamed of him). Controlling the phoenix force wasn't that difficult to Cyclops because he usually keeps personal emotions in check (he's a control freak).

Xavier pushed him to kill AFTER invading his mind and finding out that he wouldn't comply to his/the Avengers demands.

Cyclops, as of yet, has not committed genocide. The only reason why we say he's Magneto 2.0 is because of his proactivity and his desire to have humanity respect and fear mutant kind. Otherwise, prior to this event, he wanted to acquire the respect and fear by making themselves the premier super hero team. In fact, Namor and Emma, mocked how idealistic he was.

Ok Xavier did invade his mind but it was in the middle of battle. A battle where not only are The Avengers fighting you but your own team as well. In battle you do what it takes to win, and the only stupid mistake Charles made was warning Scott and not just shut him down immediately.

I'm not saying he was completely at fault just that he should take most of the blame.

Even if he was wrong for killing Xavier (and he wasn't). He shouldn't take most of the blame. He spent his time as the Phoenix saving the world while the Avengers kept on attacking him. They poked the other 4 until they started to doing bad things, but Scott didn't stray from the right path. This is literally all the Captain America and his groups fault and they're going to get away with it too.

#48 Posted by maki0129 (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@LeeSensei said:

Even if he was wrong for killing Xavier (and he wasn't). He shouldn't take most of the blame. He spent his time as the Phoenix saving the world while the Avengers kept on attacking him. They poked the other 4 until they started to doing bad things, but Scott didn't stray from the right path. This is literally all the Captain America and his groups fault and they're going to get away with it too.

So, we're just going to ignore Magik and her hellish prison of Doom? The fact that the Avengers were being hunted without provocation? Threatening every nation to not even think about waging war and destroying all their weapons? And Emma didn't need much poking to go all serial killer on us, neither did Magik...

#49 Posted by LeeSensei (385 posts) - - Show Bio

@maki0129 said:

@LeeSensei said:

Even if he was wrong for killing Xavier (and he wasn't). He shouldn't take most of the blame. He spent his time as the Phoenix saving the world while the Avengers kept on attacking him. They poked the other 4 until they started to doing bad things, but Scott didn't stray from the right path. This is literally all the Captain America and his groups fault and they're going to get away with it too.

So, we're just going to ignore Magik and her hellish prison of Doom? The fact that the Avengers were being hunted without provocation? Threatening every nation to not even think about waging war and destroying all their weapons? And Emma didn't need much poking to go all serial killer on us, neither did Magik...

1) The Hellish prison came after the Avengers broke into Scotts house and kidnapped his teenage granddaughter and after they kidnapped Transonic (another teenager). The Avengers kept on attacking them.

2) The Avengers weren't hunted without provocation. The Avengers broke into his house, had Thor brutalize his teenage student, and kidnapped his granddaughter. That was without provocation. The Avengers were wrong there.

3) That's a moot point unless you think world peace was bad. Pretty much everyone in the World loved them for it except for the Avengers.

4) Except Emma was poked. And that's not even counting the fact that Emma was corrupted in the first place by the Avengers' interference.

#50 Posted by samuel_larson_10 (283 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

In my opinion, the writers should be blamed for not taking the time to explore this subject on a deeper level and actually come up with situations that actually made sense in this event.

But on the topic, Cyclops should at least be blamed for believing that they can control the Phoenix Force. He has seen what the Phoenix Force had done to Jean Grey, so how come that subject was rarely brought up?

he believed hope could control it (in retrospect, she did) once he got it he's not responsible for his actions

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