I'm gonna flat out say it, I've never been a fan of Cyclops. From the various cartoons, to the movies, to most of the comics I've read with him, not once has he ever appealed to me. Now i realized he has a fan base, and a number of defenders for all his actions, but really, I just don't get his appeal. And the further I dig into him, the more I just say "screw that guy". But this isn't about that (well, not entirely).

This is about the new Marvel event, "Avengers Vs. X-men". And I'll preface this by saying issue one was... alright. Nothing special, nothing I'm interested in following. But having read the book myself, and having read many reviews about it from various sources, the general consensus is that he's being written as way too extreme, almost like a fascist, driven and consumed by a singular purpose. And from what various people have said, I gather most people are saying he's being poorly written, and that he's not meant to be done like that.

But really, I feel that's pretty much exactly how he's always been: A massive dick. It doesn't matter if you think different... you're wrong.

Let's wind back the clock to the first volume of X-Factor. In this, the original 5 X-men have left the school because Magneto is now running things and Storm is leading the team. Jean Grey had recently passed away as a result of the Phoenix Force and Cyclops has unknowingly married a clone of Jean Grey (just roll with it) and had a son, Nathan Summers, and are now living in Alaska. Angel messages Scott to come see him at his company, where he reveals that for some convoluted reason or another, Jean Grey has come back to life. Now this leaves Cyclops with a dilemma: How does he explain to Jean he's now married with a child, how does he resolve his feelings? Who does he choose? How does he live with this? Certainly, as a hero, he'll make the right decision, and do the heroic thing fitting for a protagonist.

Wrong. He stays with the newly reborn Jean Grey for a few months, doesn't tell her he's married with a kid, and doesn't tell his family what he's doing or where he is. The rest of the team seems cool with this, for some reason. Ultimately, his lies are discovered (Don't lie to a psychic, dick) and he returns to find his wife and kid are gone, possibly dead. His wife becomes a villain years later, and Rob Liefeld turns his son into Cable, giving us enough crappy 90's stories to last us for years, all the way to Avengers X-Sanction.

But, you may ask, certainly such a huge event in his life will at least give him some angst or pathos, haunting him for years to come? Like how Hank Pym felt such guilt over what he did with his wife and the Ultron?

Of course not. Marvel may have been stupid enough to green light this, but they smartened up enough to realize making one of their flagship protagonists a dead-beat husband wouldn't sit well, so it was nicely swept away, and is only awkwardly half mentioned on occasion. Our hero, everybody.

And, unfortunately, this sort of thing kinda set the tone for future x-books. From constantly butting heads with Wolverine, to hooking up with Emma Frost over his wife's grave, to sending children to battle in Schism, Cyclops has always been plagued with actions that for the most part the fans can agree are pretty deep into the shades of grey (no pun intended). Each time, future author's try to sweep these things under the rug, avoiding mention to his track record of dickery as much as possible, but each time it's still there, it's still canon, and like it or not people will remember.

Now sure, Astonishing X-men helped make him a much more interesting character, and actually made him seem much more pathetic than he normally appears, introducing to us the idea that he was only made leader because Professor X felt sorry for him, as nothing about him was noteworthy. This was a stroke of brilliance, in my opinion, and addressed why people felt he was so boring while at the same time making him sympathetic. We can relate to not being special in many things we do, and Marvel is all about relateable characters. We also see that despite this, he's still a capable and effective leader trying to do the right thing, which is what makes him a hero. This is the closest thing to a redemption he's ever gotten, and even though his name is forever sullied, he's at least more understandable.

Of course, this new dimension to his personality was quickly forgotten thanks to the decimation, and now he's left as the cold douchebag that's so divisive nowadays. We never really got a chance to see this revelation used, because now he's been forced into being the guy who has to make tough decisions, and is now an "end justifies the means" character.

Now there's nothing really wrong with this, but I still can't help but feel this character is always being made into the bad guy. In fact, I feel he's being turned into the Strawman of the X-books. Much like how Tony Stark and Reed Richards we're made into such evil men during Civil War because Marvel writers, like all artists, are for the most part 90% liberals, and therefore their Republican stand-ins are meant to be wrong, Cyclops is meant to represent the well meaning but disastrous methods of dealing with the possibility of extinction.

This really makes total sense when you apply this theory to cyclops. Let's face it, the rivalry between him and Wolverine has always been a huge point in X-books, but at the same time Wolverine is massively popular among fans and writers, so when Schism happened, you knew that Logan was meant to represent the "Correct" choice, even if you agreed with Scott.

And so, especially after reading AvX, I've come to a conclusion about the character: He's not being mischaracterized, he's being made into a villain! he's been built up for over 25 years now as probably the most likable X-man ever, he's trying to control the Phoenix force with no respect to Hope's feelings or wishes, he's so intense and single-minded that he's becoming the next Magneto!

In the end, like it or not, I think that's the direction they are going. I won't spoil AvX if you haven't read it, but I will say that Brian Bendis has made it quite clear that Avengers Vs X-men isn't going to be about picking a side, it's made as obvious as possible that the Avengers are in the right. As such, Cyclops is going to either become full blown evil, be martyred, or be redeemed by the end of the arc. It's been set up, it fit's with the characters current mind set and motivations, and, above all, Cyclops is a huge dick. And that's going upset Cyclops fans, I know. But that's life. You don't control Marvel, Quesada and Brian Michael Bendis do. And at this point I don't think anything you say will change that.

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

@One_Eye said:

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

Totally agree.

@One_Eye said:

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

Definitely

@One_Eye: Well, admittedly me saying that peoples other opinions are completely wrong was a bit harsh of me to say, but I still feel it's true simply solely for the bit in X-Factor, the events of which are still very canon thanks to the continued popularity of Cable, who is a result of that arc. Honestly I don't mind it as much, for the same reason I can overlook Mr. Fantastic's past wife beating ways, but it's still a key point in understanding that Cyclops has always been kind of a dick, so I can't really take it seriously when people are so quick to defend him when others point out how much of a jerk he is: it's a pretty big part of his character. you may argue that he reacted poorly to the events of X-factor (and I did make a few mistakes in some details because while writing this since I didn't have a copy on hand to double check), but it's still a horrible thing to do. I don't care how confused you are, you got a wife and kid, don't abandon them for your past girlfriend.

And I never meant to say that Xavier found him pathetic, only that (and again this is all from memory about Astonishing X-men) there was a confrontation between Emma and Scott where she stated that he was not particularly noteworthy when Xavier assembled the team, which from the context it was presented in it seemed like she was telling the truth, and as a result he was made leader as a means of pushing him to be a stronger person. And honestly that run was the closest I came to liking the character, which again I'm disappointed it didn't last.

Cyclops to me is a bit like Superman. He's certainly got a fan base and appeal, but writers use him more as a plot device, and so he never comes across as likable unless given the best of writers who truly understand him and his role. There's a web-comic called Shortpacked that parodies the X-men movies that puts it quite nicely: Wolverine is having the best day ever, while cyclops is being chased by flying anuses that are crapping all over him. And that's why I never can get into him.

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

@One_Eye said:

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

You sir have earned the first BlackArmor approval stamp in a very very long time, enjoy it sir you've earned it

@One_Eye said:

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

I agree with a lot of this, though for one writer being Gillen I feel has been writing him less cold and more concerned about his friends and Emma especially since the relaunch which is something he desperately needed. Shame this event is probably gonna halt that progress.

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

Here's part of an interview with Chris Claremont where his talks about his displeasure with how the Cyclops/Jean/Madelyne issue was handled, gives a great deal of perspective on how the person most responsible for Cyclops' characterization (historically speaking) felt about how uncharacteristic it was for Scott to leave his wife:

The original Madelyne storyline was that, at its simplest level, she was that one in a million shot that just happened to look like Jean Grey, [a.k.a. the first Phoenix]! And the relationship was summed up by the moment when Scott says: "Are you Jean?" And she punches him! That was in Uncanny X-Men #174. Because her whole desire was to be loved for herself not to be loved as the evocation of her boyfriend's dead sweetheart.
I mean, it's a classical theme. You can go back to a whole host of 1930s films, 1940s, Hitchcock films—but it all got invalidated by the resurrection of Jean Grey in X-Factor #1. The original plotline was that Scott marries Madelyne, they have their child, they go off to Alaska, he goes to work for his grandparents, he retires from the X-Men. He's a reserve member. He's available for emergencies. He comes back on special occasions, for special fights, but he has a life. He has grown up. He has grown out of the monastery; he is in the real world now. He has a child. He has maybe more than one child. It's a metaphor for us all. We all grow up. We all move on.
Scott was going to move on. Jean was dead get on with your life. And it was close to be a happy ending. They lived happily ever after, and it was to create the impression that maybe if you came back in ten years, other X-Men would have grown up and out, too. Would Kitty stay with the team forever? Would Nightcrawler? Would any of them? Because that way we could evolve them into new directions, we could bring in new characters. There would be an ongoing sense of renewal, and growth and change in a positive sense.
Then, unfortunately, Jean was resurrected, Scott dumps his wife and kid and goes back to the old girlfriend. So it not only destroys Scott's character as a hero and as a decent human being it creates an untenable structural situation: what do we do with Madelyne and the kid? ... So ultimately the resolution was: turn her into the Goblin Queen and kill her off.

@god_spawn said:

I agree with a lot of this, though for one writer being Gillen I feel has been writing him less cold and more concerned about his friends and Emma especially since the relaunch which is something he desperately needed. Shame this event is probably gonna halt that progress.

Yeah. Especially when he doesn't talk to his girlfriend after she nearly lost her Arm. That was significantly "less cold". lol.

@ReVamp: Troll. He did try sending her back a few times after and screamed at her when Sinister blasted her the first time and she was the one refusing, good on her part though. I probably would have thought if he was being written like how he was previously he would've just forced Magik to send her back or something.

@god_spawn said:

@ReVamp: Troll. He did try sending her back a few times after and screamed at her when Sinister blasted her the first time and she was the one refusing, good on her part though. I probably would have thought if he was being written like how he was previously he would've just forced Magik to send her back or something.

The best. I disagree. While my knowledge/understanding of the characters aren't as big as yours, I think that the whole thing of Scott being "We need a big mission" and completely ignoring Emma (this, of course, after the fight with Sinister) was extremely stupid and Gillian disappointed me in that issue.

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

@ReVamp: I took it as something was wrong. In the previous issue Scott and the Apex talked about Emma and the Apex brought up Scott does truly love Emma. The next issue we are gearing up towards AvX something Gillen has admitted to building up to it. Scott doesn't typically get shaken so easily and for some reason was extremely on edge hence why he was asking the Cuckoos if any mission was coming up every 10 minutes. I took Emma's quote as a bit of both a red flag and Scott focusing on something else. Yes, he might have been ignoring her a bit but she was the only one who brought it to our attention and the only one who probably thought something of it and she did it in her b*tchy Emma way. There are 3 things that can really shake up Scott. Jean and the Phoenix since she was his old love for such a long time and then there was the whole Maddie Pryor incident and that was a huge mess and scarred him. Losing Emma, shown even recently when he almost broke down just to keep her around. And Hope cause she is his granddaughter in a way and that she is basically the only hope for their survival. So with the whole event happening, it was a possible Easter egg of sorts that Scott is definitely on edge about something.

@DIOMJK: omg thank you so much! He is definitely turning into the next Magneto.

@DIOMJK:

@One_Eye: @ApatheticAvenger: OMG thank you so much!I couldn't have said it any better myself!

@DIOMJK said:

@One_Eye: Well, admittedly me saying that peoples other opinions are completely wrong was a bit harsh of me to say, but I still feel it's true simply solely for the bit in X-Factor, the events of which are still very canon thanks to the continued popularity of Cable, who is a result of that arc. Honestly I don't mind it as much, for the same reason I can overlook Mr. Fantastic's past wife beating ways, but it's still a key point in understanding that Cyclops has always been kind of a dick, so I can't really take it seriously when people are so quick to defend him when others point out how much of a jerk he is: it's a pretty big part of his character. you may argue that he reacted poorly to the events of X-factor (and I did make a few mistakes in some details because while writing this since I didn't have a copy on hand to double check), but it's still a horrible thing to do. I don't care how confused you are, you got a wife and kid, don't abandon them for your past girlfriend.

And I never meant to say that Xavier found him pathetic, only that (and again this is all from memory about Astonishing X-men) there was a confrontation between Emma and Scott where she stated that he was not particularly noteworthy when Xavier assembled the team, which from the context it was presented in it seemed like she was telling the truth, and as a result he was made leader as a means of pushing him to be a stronger person. And honestly that run was the closest I came to liking the character, which again I'm disappointed it didn't last.

Cyclops to me is a bit like Superman. He's certainly got a fan base and appeal, but writers use him more as a plot device, and so he never comes across as likable unless given the best of writers who truly understand him and his role. There's a web-comic called Shortpacked that parodies the X-men movies that puts it quite nicely: Wolverine is having the best day ever, while cyclops is being chased by flying anuses that are crapping all over him. And that's why I never can get into him.

Emma was being controlled by Cassandra Nova at that point in time I believe, so everything she was saying was designed to hurt Cyclops and play on his fears. She wasn't telling the truth, just twisting up Scotts mind until he ultimately entered a comatose state, trapped by his fears. Totally agree the Whedon's run was the best that Cyclops had ever been written.

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

Posts like this are why we are best friends.

@One_Eye said:

Very interesting. We're definitely going to agree to disagree on a lot of points. You don't find the character appealing? That's your opinion and I respect that. However, to say that people disagreeing with you is wrong is just closed-minded as opinions are at best subjective. I'm not going to beat you over the head with the whole "he's making the hard choices/ savior of mutant-kind" schtick as it seems that doing as such would be fairly redundant, however, I do feel the need to clarify a few things. Not so much to change your opinion but to state what we do share opinions on and vice verse.

The event only interest because it's X-Men oriented and features one of my favorite comic book characters that being Cyclops. I've been on other forums where some have stated their disapproval of Cyclops actions in the AvX#1 whereas others have actually praised him. I agree that his actions are a bit extreme but given recent events, Cap showing up with Helicarriers, MRD, and the sort while allowing for their minds((unknowingly, mind you...)) to be probed made their intentions clear. The Avengers were there to take Hope and there was no intention of discussion and so I can understand Cyclops actions and don't harbor in ill-will towards him. I don't condone either side, however, both sides are acting irrationally.

As for the whole Scott Summers is a jerk, dick, douche, whatever, say what you will , however, at the end of the day most respected leaders aren't seen as nice. When have you ever heard of any of leaders being well-liked?

As for X-Factor, Scott was put into a tough situation. He was forced to resign as leader, unhappily married, and obviously hadn't gotten over Jean's death. Suddenly, he receives a phone call that he's first love is alive and kicking, mind you, Warren and the group called Cykes because they wanted him to come back and lead as well as a return to the days of old. If they had any lick of sense then they would've explained everything to Jean in regards to Scott and his marriage. They knew what they were doing by purposefully withholding information. And for the record, Jean didn't have her telepathy and only discovered Scott's secret due to finding a photo of Madelyn and Nathan. It's not as though he hadn't tried to cotact his family, however, Sinister erased all trace of the pair. It's really a situation where no one is in the right. Scott could've approached the whole situation a lot better, fine. However, Warren, Nathan, and Hank were all in on keeping Scott's secret so they're not innocent either. Jean's just as bad for even admitting that had she still possessed her telepathy that she would've forcibly read Scott's mind.

Astonishing X-Men is a fantastic read and gives great portrayals of the featured characters, however, where we disagree is that Xavier found him pathetic. Given how close the two are and even with Xavier's shady actions over the years, Xavier has always seen Scott as his most promising student and even regard him as a son. If nothing else, it a ruse done to get Scott to realize the lack of control over his abilities was self-induced rather than due to injury.((however, since Marvel doesn't seem to acknowledge Whedon's run then there's no telling how much water those story arcs hold nowadays...)) If nothing else, it did get Scott back to his roots but it's quite unfortunate that Marvel didn't agree with the direction that Whedon had chosen.

If nothing else, I don't agree one hundred percent with the new direction that Marvel is taking with Scott. It seems as though, yes, he's being made to look like the next Magneto in order to elevate both Wolverine and Captain America(( a character, let's face it, whom no one really cared about until Civil War.)) And as you've stated, the same thing was done to Tony Stark and then lop Steve Rogers death on top and now Tony is made into a Grade-A D-Bag while Cap dies a martyr. I doubt Marvel will even afford Scott Summers that dignity. In a perfect world, Schism wouldn't have happened, nor Civil War, and every character would get a fair portrayal but alas that's not going to happen from the looks of things but I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the whole ordeal either. If nothing else, I agree that writers have been dragging Scott's name in the mud for quite some time but I've a feeling that this story won't be so cut and dry.

SO. MUCH. WIN.

@god_spawn said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

Posts like this are why we are best friends.

^_^

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

That's why I purposely used the term "grey area" to describe his actions over the years. I personally feel the whole Jean Grey approving of the relationship and pushing them to it to be a bit ham fisted, and it still didn't help me feel better about cyclops as a character.

Also, thanks for the Chris Claremont quote, and while it does show how uncharacteristic it was for Cyclops to do that (at the time), the fact is, as I've said before, a huge part of X-men was the conflict between Scott and Wolverine, and since Wolverine has always been both a writer, editor and fan favorite, he typically is the one who comes out on top and in the right. As a result, Scott has done more and more "grey" things, to the point where making controversial or "dickish" decisions is pretty much the norm for the character, whether or not he winds up being justified in the end (you can argue forever about that).

And while I can understands peoples arguments on why he might be in the right, I don't think Marvel themselves believes it, which is why I brought up the Civil War example. Marvel is a mostly liberal run company, creative wise, so the arguments for Tony and Reed's actions, while not necessarily "wrong" (again, argue forever) never came across as if they believed what they are selling. Same thing with AvX. Wolverine and Captain America are clearly Marvel's favorite, so I don't quite believe that Cyclops' arguments are done as well as they could/should be.

@DIOMJK said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

That's why I purposely used the term "grey area" to describe his actions over the years. I personally feel the whole Jean Grey approving of the relationship and pushing them to it to be a bit ham fisted, and it still didn't help me feel better about cyclops as a character.

Also, thanks for the Chris Claremont quote, and while it does show how uncharacteristic it was for Cyclops to do that (at the time), the fact is, as I've said before, a huge part of X-men was the conflict between Scott and Wolverine, and since Wolverine has always been both a writer, editor and fan favorite, he typically is the one who comes out on top and in the right. As a result, Scott has done more and more "grey" things, to the point where making controversial or "dickish" decisions is pretty much the norm for the character, whether or not he winds up being justified in the end (you can argue forever about that).

And while I can understands peoples arguments on why he might be in the right, I don't think Marvel themselves believes it, which is why I brought up the Civil War example. Marvel is a mostly liberal run company, creative wise, so the arguments for Tony and Reed's actions, while not necessarily "wrong" (again, argue forever) never came across as if they believed what they are selling. Same thing with AvX. Wolverine and Captain America are clearly Marvel's favorite, so I don't quite believe that Cyclops' arguments are done as well as they could/should be.

Definitely understandable. As a liberal myself, I have no problem with Marvel being blatantly left of center (my favorite writers, such as Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis, are also quite left-wing), but it's easy to see a level of bias that can conflict with stories. Jason Aaron has been called a "hippie" by some of his fellow Marvel "architects" so it's pretty blatant that he agreed with Logan's side during the Schism (not wanting teenagers to be soldiers, regardless of the extreme circumstances). The same is true with the Civil War, Cap represented an argument for civil liberties that most comic readers could agree with, while Stark found himself siding with government control.

That being said, I think this event may be different, Civil War and Schism were about ideological differences, whereas AvX is more focused on the simpler idea of the two biggest and best teams in Marvel duking it out when they are at their most powerful. The Phoenix Force being involved is only happening because it's such a notable story element, it really could have been anything, as long as the end result was Cap and Cyke punching each other. Also, Wolverine will clearly be siding with Cyclops by the end of the event, I think that much has been made clear in the previews (the X-Men poster I got with the first issue even has him standing next to Cyclops against Cap).

I honestly think Cap is being made out to be more of the antagonist here, even with Cyclops being more militant in personality you have to take into consideration all that happened during Fear Itself and how Cap has the safety of the world on his shoulders. He's gonna be much more pragmatic, as we've seen Cyclops become in recent years (especially with Schism and The Children's Crusade). As a big fan of both characters, I'm hoping we see a truce by the end and neither are ruined as characters (like poor Tony temporarily was during Civil War).

@DIOMJK said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

That's why I purposely used the term "grey area" to describe his actions over the years. I personally feel the whole Jean Grey approving of the relationship and pushing them to it to be a bit ham fisted, and it still didn't help me feel better about cyclops as a character.

Also, thanks for the Chris Claremont quote, and while it does show how uncharacteristic it was for Cyclops to do that (at the time), the fact is, as I've said before, a huge part of X-men was the conflict between Scott and Wolverine, and since Wolverine has always been both a writer, editor and fan favorite, he typically is the one who comes out on top and in the right. As a result, Scott has done more and more "grey" things, to the point where making controversial or "dickish" decisions is pretty much the norm for the character, whether or not he winds up being justified in the end (you can argue forever about that).

And while I can understands peoples arguments on why he might be in the right, I don't think Marvel themselves believes it, which is why I brought up the Civil War example. Marvel is a mostly liberal run company, creative wise, so the arguments for Tony and Reed's actions, while not necessarily "wrong" (again, argue forever) never came across as if they believed what they are selling. Same thing with AvX. Wolverine and Captain America are clearly Marvel's favorite, so I don't quite believe that Cyclops' arguments are done as well as they could/should be.

Definitely understandable. As a liberal myself, I have no problem with Marvel being blatantly left of center (my favorite writers, such as Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis, are also quite left-wing), but it's easy to see a level of bias that can conflict with stories. Jason Aaron has been called a "hippie" by some of his fellow Marvel "architects" so it's pretty blatant that he agreed with Logan's side during the Schism (not wanting teenagers to be soldiers, regardless of the extreme circumstances). The same is true with the Civil War, Cap represented an argument for civil liberties that most comic readers could agree with, while Stark found himself siding with government control.

That being said, I think this event may be different, Civil War and Schism were about ideological differences, whereas AvX is more focused on the simpler idea of the two biggest and best teams in Marvel duking it out when they are at their most powerful. The Phoenix Force being involved is only happening because it's such a notable story element, it really could have been anything, as long as the end result was Cap and Cyke punching each other. Also, Wolverine will clearly be siding with Cyclops by the end of the event, I think that much has been made clear in the previews (the X-Men poster I got with the first issue even has him standing next to Cyclops against Cap).

I honestly think Cap is being made out to be more of the antagonist here, even with Cyclops being more militant in personality you have to take into consideration all that happened during Fear Itself and how Cap has the safety of the world on his shoulders. He's gonna be much more pragmatic, as we've seen Cyclops become in recent years (especially with Schism and The Children's Crusade). As a big fan of both characters, I'm hoping we see a truce by the end and neither are ruined as characters (like poor Tony temporarily was during Civil War).

I think Scott is stubborn and has been shown willing to get his hands dirty. That can come off as "dickish" or as "strong" depending on, well, depending on if the stand he takes is in the right or not. AvX isn't mischaracterizing him so much as emphasizing this trait because, without it, the event wouldn't happen. PIS doesn't just include outlandish underdog victories...

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@DIOMJK said:

@ApatheticAvenger said:

Another thing to take into consideration is writer bias. Jason Aaron is a huge Wolverine fanboy, and was thus perhaps the worst person to write Schism in a way that showed sympathy for both sides. On the other hand, Joss Whedon loves Cyclops (he gave Buffy his last name for a reason), and has been arguably the best writer for the character since Claremont.

Sure, Cyclops' "d**k" moves are accepted canon, but writers later putting perspective on them shouldn't always be considered negative or a means of "sweeping them under the rug". Chris Claremont was trying to save Cyclops' character by making Madelyne a villain and establishing her as clone created by Sinister meant to manipulate him so he wouldn't seem so damn callous. Retcons are canon too, especially (in my opinion) when they're done by the same writer who wrote the original material (Claremont having to establish Madelyne as a clone and having her subconsciously manipulate Cyclops with her latent telepathy for instance).

Also, I would make the argument that Cyclops' side has just as much support from fans as Wolverine's, look no further than the amount of people who agree with his position on this site if you want proof (G-Man being the most notable case, having wrote on article on why he felt Cyclops was right). Another sidenote would be that in all honesty, and not just because I'm a Cyclops fan, you can't really call him hooking up with Emma on Jean's grave a "d**k" move when Jean herself condoned it from the afterlife. Just saying. :P

That's why I purposely used the term "grey area" to describe his actions over the years. I personally feel the whole Jean Grey approving of the relationship and pushing them to it to be a bit ham fisted, and it still didn't help me feel better about cyclops as a character.

Also, thanks for the Chris Claremont quote, and while it does show how uncharacteristic it was for Cyclops to do that (at the time), the fact is, as I've said before, a huge part of X-men was the conflict between Scott and Wolverine, and since Wolverine has always been both a writer, editor and fan favorite, he typically is the one who comes out on top and in the right. As a result, Scott has done more and more "grey" things, to the point where making controversial or "dickish" decisions is pretty much the norm for the character, whether or not he winds up being justified in the end (you can argue forever about that).

And while I can understands peoples arguments on why he might be in the right, I don't think Marvel themselves believes it, which is why I brought up the Civil War example. Marvel is a mostly liberal run company, creative wise, so the arguments for Tony and Reed's actions, while not necessarily "wrong" (again, argue forever) never came across as if they believed what they are selling. Same thing with AvX. Wolverine and Captain America are clearly Marvel's favorite, so I don't quite believe that Cyclops' arguments are done as well as they could/should be.

Definitely understandable. As a liberal myself, I have no problem with Marvel being blatantly left of center (my favorite writers, such as Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis, are also quite left-wing), but it's easy to see a level of bias that can conflict with stories. Jason Aaron has been called a "hippie" by some of his fellow Marvel "architects" so it's pretty blatant that he agreed with Logan's side during the Schism (not wanting teenagers to be soldiers, regardless of the extreme circumstances). The same is true with the Civil War, Cap represented an argument for civil liberties that most comic readers could agree with, while Stark found himself siding with government control.

That being said, I think this event may be different, Civil War and Schism were about ideological differences, whereas AvX is more focused on the simpler idea of the two biggest and best teams in Marvel duking it out when they are at their most powerful. The Phoenix Force being involved is only happening because it's such a notable story element, it really could have been anything, as long as the end result was Cap and Cyke punching each other. Also, Wolverine will clearly be siding with Cyclops by the end of the event, I think that much has been made clear in the previews (the X-Men poster I got with the first issue even has him standing next to Cyclops against Cap).

I honestly think Cap is being made out to be more of the antagonist here, even with Cyclops being more militant in personality you have to take into consideration all that happened during Fear Itself and how Cap has the safety of the world on his shoulders. He's gonna be much more pragmatic, as we've seen Cyclops become in recent years (especially with Schism and The Children's Crusade). As a big fan of both characters, I'm hoping we see a truce by the end and neither are ruined as characters (like poor Tony temporarily was during Civil War).

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm not so sure about Wolverine's allegiance just yet, if only for the fact that promos exist showing him on the avengers side of things as well as the X-men. I would actually like to see him do what the Thing did in Civil War, which is stay neutral. I'd say it depends on how serious the conflict gets, since if X-men start dying, i don't think he's gonna stand for that. As long as it's just him, and not the Jean Grey school, that gets involved in the conflict, though, I'm fine with that.

All i will say is that Joss Whedon's Cyclops, the x-men evolution and the anime versions, are my favorite portrayals of him.

All i will say is that Joss Whedon's Cyclops, the x-men evolution and the anime versions, are my favorite portrayals of him.

Look I like Scott, I think he's a great leader and makes the difficult decisions no else can. But I think this kind of sums up how I feel at times with him....

@One_Eye: I completely agree with you

as soon as he saidcyclopswas made to be a villian i stopped reading that bs.

@Aero_gt: So far my theory seems to be pretty solid right now, based on AvX number 2, where storm, Magneto and Emma Frost all ask him to stop and think about what he's doing, clearly in disagreement, the only mutants that seem to trust his decision are the new mutants (who are only used as canon fodder here) not to mention the entire Avengers team is against him, and as I've said in the post you stopped reading, Marvel is so open about their writers bias that they would have no problem making Cyclops the villain if it made the Captain America/Wolverine side look good, just like they did in Civil war where they made Iron Man and Mr. fantastic the "villains". Sure, they weren't "evil", but they were clearly the antagonistic force in this story.

And plenty of popular heroes have been made villains in the past, many times, so we'll see where this story goes.

AvX is just getting more stupid as it goes along. There isn't going to be one redeeming quality of this event..

cyclops isnt trying to destroy all the people in earth like magneto wanted too . he wants to use the phoenix to help bring back his race. cap and his crew only see the negative affects that the phoenix can bring but scott knows this creature more than steve and sees the positive affects it could fave. the two leaders are just taking different approaches and if anything steve is the one that started it by trying to take hope. scott acting all emo like he is coming off in this book is out of character though. i can understand both sides plans but the way the writers are making people act are just off.this whole conflict could have been handled peacefully . i mean in the book cap said himself he respected scotts leadership but he went to try and get logan and his school behind him rather than phoning scott and making some sorta plan rather than just up and show up on their turf and take hope as if no one would question that.

@Aero_gt said:

cyclops isnt trying to destroy all the people in earth like magneto wanted too . he wants to use the phoenix to help bring back his race. cap and his crew only see the negative affects that the phoenix can bring but scott knows this creature more than steve and sees the positive affects it could fave. the two leaders are just taking different approaches and if anything steve is the one that started it by trying to take hope. scott acting all emo like he is coming off in this book is out of character though. i can understand both sides plans but the way the writers are making people act are just off.this whole conflict could have been handled peacefully . i mean in the book cap said himself he respected scotts leadership but he went to try and get logan and his school behind him rather than phoning scott and making some sorta plan rather than just up and show up on their turf and take hope as if no one would question that.

Agreed. Both very intelligent guys are out of character and all sensibility of the two is thrown out the window. Everything from the plot, the dialogue, the characterization and some fights (Nemesis shooting Iron Man with guns and somehow Quicksilver got shot wtf?), and artwork is utter sh*t, sh*t, sh*t. They look like they are 9 year olds or from the Super Squad show.

@Aero_gt: @god_spawn: That's one thing I'll agree on, Scott is acting with no reason whatsoever. He actually says something along the lines of "now that we got a messiah, they want to take her away from us". Dude, I've babysat 9 year old girls with more maturity than that, this isn't his older brother taking away his toy train, this is serious business.

I do however think Cap was more reasonable than most people give him credit for. I don't altogether agree with his method, but he's looking at an indestructible cosmic force that has destroyed whole planets on it's way here, and the way the issue was written it looks like it's pretty damn close to earth (a few hours a way I'd say). Like he said, it isn't an option to just walk away, he had no choice but to come ready to act with force if he had to. I do believe that they could have talked it out more if there was any kind of reason behind this plot, and that for all the defense I gave him Cap still was poorly written, but nope, that's not the world we live in. I'm not liking this series at all, and I'm not even going to call it Avengers vs. X-men, it's everyone else Vs. Scott Summers, because every single character that matters in this story, X-men and Avengers, has called Cyclops out on his complete lack of reason in this issue, the X-men are clearly only fighting because Scott decided they have to fight, not because they want to. or at least that's my take on what happened.

I'd recommend just reading Wolverine and the X-men #9. Wolverine is actually conflicted over what he feels he has to do, especially since he says Hope's just a little girl that now he has to try and kill in order to save the world. It actually humanizes the whole conflict much more than having Cap and Cyclops butt heads and whine, so that whether you agree with it or not you still sympathize. Hard to believe it's by the same guy.

@DIOMJK:

That's one thing I'll agree on, Scott is acting with no reason whatsoever. He actually says something along the lines of "now that we got a messiah, they want to take her away from us". Dude, I've babysat 9 year old girls with more maturity than that, this isn't his older brother taking away his toy train, this is serious business.

Neither person has any sensibility. It isn't just Scott, it's Cap too.

I do however think Cap was more reasonable than most people give him credit for. I don't altogether agree with his method, but he's looking at an indestructible cosmic force that has destroyed whole planets on it's way here, and the way the issue was written it looks like it's pretty damn close to earth (a few hours a way I'd say). Like he said, it isn't an option to just walk away, he had no choice but to come ready to act with force if he had to. I do believe that they could have talked it out more if there was any kind of reason behind this plot, and that for all the defense I gave him Cap still was poorly written, but nope, that's not the world we live in. I'm not liking this series at all, and I'm not even going to call it Avengers vs. X-men, it's everyone else Vs. Scott Summers, because every single character that matters in this story, X-men and Avengers, has called Cyclops out on his complete lack of reason in this issue, the X-men are clearly only fighting because Scott decided they have to fight, not because they want to. or at least that's my take on what happened.

Cap was just as stupid. Cap goes to Wolverine who is one person out of the group that has the most experience with the Phoenix Force in the first place and goes off his word when he could have easily called up Scott and said we need your help, not fly to Utopia, land on their home, show up with a Helicarrier full of Avengers and demand they take Hope instead of just teaming up which, despite the recent tension in UXM both are sensible enough to throw away their differences and try and come up with something and help each other for the betterment of the planet. No reason they can't both gain what they want if they team up. A disaster could be averted, fights wouldn't have happened, and a large return of the mutant populous. Now we sit here in a crap fest of random fights while a potential cosmic threat shows all over a corny exchange of words of the arguably two best leaders in the MU, a bipolar optic blast and voila, you get a mind numbing dumb event. This book so far has been filled with disappoint and is better off disregarded once it is done. Any theories being based off this terrible WIS/PIS/CIS case should also be disregarded. I know I will disregard them. I'm not trying to come across as an a$$hole or anything but crap facts lead to crap theories which gets no one anywhere. It's like basing a logical explanation of something Squirrel Girl does. It isn't Everyone vs Scott Summers, it's Marvel: See how much garbage we can forcibly shove down these reader's throats before they puke. BOTH characters are being written out of character, it isn't simply just Scott being "senseless".

I'd recommend just reading Wolverine and the X-men #9. Wolverine is actually conflicted over what he feels he has to do, especially since he says Hope's just a little girl that now he has to try and kill in order to save the world. It actually humanizes the whole conflict much more than having Cap and Cyclops butt heads and whine, so that whether you agree with it or not you still sympathize. Hard to believe it's by the same guy

I'll check it out. I'm on the fence with WATXM, it's good but iffy at times. I'll do with what I have been doing with AvX and just reading them at the comic shop, I'm not wasting money on any of the main books. I'm probably only buying Gillen's UXM issues that correspond with the event cause he is my favorite writer atm and in Marvel and has been doing a fantastic job in UXM with writing the characters well despite trying to keep them in a realm where they can be used in AvX albeit still being out of character in the main issues of AvX itself. And I support Gillen too. I'm literally disgusted with how he writes them so well then they have the characters turned to rubbish in 2 issues in 2 weeks. I feel bad he has to be a part of it. But he is writing his own perspective on how he sees the event by stating in an interview he will be writing the Avengers as the villains and the X-men the good guys which will be a breather at how much Avenger bias is geared up towards this event.

@god_spawn: I said this before. Marvel : If it's broken, how can we make it worse?

@god_spawn: I disagree that they could have necessarily have worked together on this, since Scott has been dead set on making sure the Phoenix Force does come for hope, which I think has proven time and again to be a bad idea, but I'm not arguing that. Again, Cap could have been more reasonable, but I don't like it when people say him coming with the hellicarier was a bad idea on his part. As I said, it's bigger than just showing up for a meeting. There's a risk that could destroy the world within a few hours, sometimes you got to come prepared, and since Cyclops did strike first without knowing the hellicarrier was there, he was justified in his preparation. Again, I'm not denying that Cap isn't out of character, he is, and he did stupid things, but his actions aren't as black and white as people make it out to be. He's a soldier, soldiers do some questionable things, especially out of desperation, and this is a desperate time when something that has already killed billions is on it's way to your planet. I also do agree that a lot of this came about because these guys didn't discuss it enough, and I think a lot of this comes from the fact that despite having 12 issues they decided to kick things into battle so fast. This is a terrible event, and I'm just glad that besides the main X-books and the avengers there's not too many tie-ins that I can see. Hopefully it'll play out like fear itself and make absolutely no difference to marvel continuity at all.

@TheGreyOutcastX: Don't know why this didn't get sent to my inbox. I think they have some great titles out right now. I'm not about bashing the entire company but just the writers that suck at the event they are doing. I could say Bendis sucks but then someone brings up Ultimate Spider-Man and I can't counter that. I like Aaron on WATXM, Brubaker's Winter Soldier has been awesome and one of my fave titles to read, I haven't picked up any FF since Johnny died but I have heard great things about Hickman's run so far. Fraction pushed for the Iron Fist upgrade too and he did well on his older Iron Man stuff from what I read. Just as a unit though they are awful.

@CitizenBane: I wouldn't be surprised. I bet the Schism fight ends up having better writing.

@RogueOracle said:

Look I like Scott, I think he's a great leader and makes the difficult decisions no else can. But I think this kind of sums up how I feel at times with him....

Context for the pic?

@god_spawn said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Don't know why this didn't get sent to my inbox. I think they have some great titles out right now. I'm not about bashing the entire company but just the writers that suck at the event they are doing. I could say Bendis sucks but then someone brings up Ultimate Spider-Man and I can't counter that. I like Aaron on WATXM, Brubaker's Winter Soldier has been awesome and one of my fave titles to read, I haven't picked up any FF since Johnny died but I have heard great things about Hickman's run so far. Fraction pushed for the Iron Fist upgrade too and he did well on his Iron Man run from what I read. Just as a unit though they are awful.

@CitizenBane: I wouldn't be surprised. I bet the Schism fight ends up having better writing.

Solo titles/team books haven't be bad, but Events are broken, instead of trying to fix it and make them actually worth the paper they are printed on, they have degraded down to just tossing ideas at a paper and hope it all connects in the end. Hence: if it's broken, how do we make it worse?

@TheGreyOutcastX: Agreed. I just took your comment as reference to Marvel in general. My mistake.

@InnerVenom123 said:

@RogueOracle said:

Look I like Scott, I think he's a great leader and makes the difficult decisions no else can. But I think this kind of sums up how I feel at times with him....

Context for the pic?

It's Beast leaving or during a brief return to gather somebody. The torture is referring to what happened to him at the hands of Dark Beast during the Utopia arc.

@Mercy_ said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@RogueOracle said:

Look I like Scott, I think he's a great leader and makes the difficult decisions no else can. But I think this kind of sums up how I feel at times with him....

Context for the pic?

It's Beast leaving or during a brief return to gather somebody. The torture is referring to what happened to him at the hands of Dark Beast during the Utopia arc.

So... Beast is just lashing out at Cyclops for something that wasn't even his fault?

Oh my. How poignant. Clearly Cyclops is the bad guy in this situation.

*Eyeroll*

@god_spawn said:

@TheGreyOutcastX: Agreed. I just took your comment as reference to Marvel in general. My mistake.

It's all good. I would have to hate myself if I meant all Marvel books were bad. Uncanny X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, and X-Factor are just such good reads.

@TheGreyOutcastX:

@InnerVenom123 said:

So... Beast is just lashing out at Cyclops for something that wasn't even his fault?

Oh my. How poignant. Clearly Cyclops is the bad guy in this situation.

*Eyeroll*

IIRC Cyke and Emma knew and waited until saving him would help them strategically. It's not unfounded anger.

@Mercy_ said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

So... Beast is just lashing out at Cyclops for something that wasn't even his fault?

Oh my. How poignant. Clearly Cyclops is the bad guy in this situation.

*Eyeroll*

IIRC Cyke and Emma knew and waited until saving him would help them strategically. It's not unfounded anger.

Oh. Well sh*t. Nevermind then.

@god_spawn said:

AvX is just getting more stupid as it goes along. There isn't going to be one redeeming quality of this event..

Agreed. I hoped it would be different, but that seems to not be the case at all. T_T