Cyclops was wrong.

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#1 Posted by acer51 (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

#2 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd yet you have Cyke's pic as an avatar...

#3 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

Hurray for opposition!

1. The Phoenix was coming anyways: So Cyclops was not responsible for harboring it. If Hope would have been killed (or "hidden" in protective custody) the same if not worse destruction would have followed.

2. The Phoenix does evil/destructive things when provoked: Professor X should have known better, the Avengers were ignorant.

3. It was the Avengers fault that the Phoenix 5 was even created.

4. Based on 2 and 3 the turmoil in the world is the Avengers' fault.

5. Cyclops was right that it would restore the mutant race.

6. The p5 were corrupted from the beginning, even Cyclops is aware that he can get a good lawyer to defend himself but he chose to stay in custody (until Sinister revealed him/herself).

7. Ironcally, getting rid of the phoenix may have been a bad idea. Hope could have restored the Mutant race without Scarlet Witches help IMO. Hope already had the ability to awaken/speed up Mutant Evolution, with the phoenix force she could have done the same. We don't even know what Cable's bad future entailed.

#4 Posted by tahmidk (283 posts) - - Show Bio

^^^^this 
 
not to mention his son f rom THE FUTURE told him to protect her from the avengers

#5 Edited by DATNIGGA (1206 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

He brought back his race... thats what good he did. if you where a mutant and your race was hunted & currently on the brink of extinction would you let that go give up & die?

He was right

because the Phoenix's whole point for being there was to bring the mutants back... anyone who reads x men properly would know that the PF doesnt want to blow up the earth because most of the time its there to posses a mutant.. of some kind.

also sir... you seem to be missing a few key points to this

#1 Cyke wouldnt even have been Phoenix host had ironman not impulsively blow up the entity & spit it.

#2 the P5 brought peace to earth the avengers kept attacking them & then they sought to destroy the avengers who were ultimately disturbing the peace (and the ones who started this entire war)

#3 Professor X's death is his own fault. teacher or not i wouldn't let someone erase my mind without a fight. & thats with a normal mindstate... how would someone with a Phoenix mind state take a consistent telepathic assault backed by a physical assault from the avengers?

Cyke would do it all again.

Cause he would sacrifice everything for the lives of his people... hes a revolutionary who is not a afraid to get his hands dirty. he has brought his people through horrible times because hes a strong leader if Professor have led the x men during these times mutants would be dead by now

He was right from the beginning had Cap not attacked him mutants could have been back w/o all this bloodshed but you know cap... hes always right simply because hes captain america

#6 Posted by WonderKnight (60 posts) - - Show Bio

@DATNIGGA: This

#7 Posted by Black_Robin (20 posts) - - Show Bio

This ^^^^^

#8 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14985 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51:

I honestly thought I was the only one that though that he was wrong.

#9 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Will this ever end? Give it up people, nobody came out of AvX in the right, continuing to take sides is embarrassing at this point.

#10 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops was right

#11 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1337 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Will this ever end? Give it up people, nobody came out of AvX in the right, continuing to take sides is embarrassing at this point.

Amen !

#12 Posted by chocobojam (288 posts) - - Show Bio

actually, cyclops is right in the very beginning and there's nothing cap and his avengers can do about phoenix to begin with. splitting the phoenix is just a lame excuse to make AvX 12 issues longer.

#13 Posted by The Stegman (25078 posts) - - Show Bio

This whole event was wrong

#14 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Will this ever end? Give it up people, nobody came out of AvX in the right, continuing to take sides is embarrassing at this point.

I AM ANTIREGISTRATION.

#15 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

Charles's death was 100% his own fault. There's no indication he killed millions of people when he was Dark Phoenix. The mutants didn't want the powers in the first place, oh well, it was a higher power that deemed it so. Even when mutants lost their powers after Wanda shit all over them, they were still hunted. It wasn't his dream. It was the Celestials.

What good did Cyclops do, uh...ended world hunger, gave free renewable energy to the world. Effectively created world peace. Stopped earthquakes (although this was a writer error, which they admitted was stupid, since this isn't scientifically possible). He was 100% fine as the Phoenix for the majority of this event.

Scott didn't restore mutants. It was already explained they were unable to reactive the X-Gene as long as the Phoenix was split among the five of them. The Phoenix was sent to Earth to get its host and restore mutants. They stated this in Uncanny X-Men. And Tony acknowledged he knew it was going to restore mutants in AvX Consequences #4.

What people aren't understanding is that, this may have been what Scott wanted. But it was 100% out of his hands. Mutants were going to come back, whether he wanted it or not.

#16 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Agreed, the Phoenix was coming, period. Cyclops was right about the Phoenix's goal, but not responsible for it.

#17 Posted by Sharkbite (293 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix was coming. Cyclops did not create it. Cyclops did not summon it. Cyclops observed that it was coming. Blaming him for that is akin to blaming a Doctor if they discover you have cancer.

Phoenix was going to restart the mutant race. Nothing anyone was able to do demonstrated the even the faintest indication that it's mission could have been stopped; even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again). Given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the Mutant Race, but also for the Earth as a whole. Yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible. The Avengers plans (Hide Hope, Kill Hope, Tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, Give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and Pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's 'too much too fast') all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it. In fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix. But Captain Ego couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him.

Yeah, Chuck died. Chuck died when he went hunting down Cyclops. It's the ongoing theme of the story; the Avengers pick the fight, and Cyclops defends himself. Instead of blaming Scott for defending himself, the blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: either it's Xavier's fault for attacking Scott, or *gasp* it's Cap's fault for going out of his way to recruit Xavier and put him into that situation. Cap recruited him and sent him into a suicide mission that could not be won. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier; poor leadership and incompetetance from Captain America did.

And last Phoenix is a cosmic entity of destruction and rebirth. That is the Phoenix pattern: thrash everything, then build it back the way you want it. The Phoenix Force made it's will manifest in the conversation Scott had with Emma when it obtained greater control over them. The Phoenix Force wanted to destroy the entire Earth, then build it back perfect. While yes, there will be mutant conflict once again, and yes, lives will be lost to mutant villains and sentinels and everything else, ultimately no matter how many casualties are caused by the resurgence of mutants, it will not become worse than the option of Phoenix Destroys Entire Planet And Everyone Dies. Monday morning quarterback it all you want; there will be some negative fallout of the events, but this was the best possible outcome for everybody (mutant or human), and Cyclops pulled it off with the Avengers doing the darnedest to stop him and make things infinitely worse every step of the way.

Scott's the hero of the story. He can be painted as the villain for making the tough choices when every option hurts someone. Actually, with the garbage line-up for Thunderbolts in Marvel Now (using Punisher, Deadpool, and Red Hulk is not the same thing as using actual villains), Marvel is now lacking their Villains-You-Can-Relate-Too comic. I say take Cyclops, Magneto, Emma, and a handful of other people who still support them, and write a brand spanking new Brotherhood title following the mutants who are doing everything it takes to save the world, even when they have to fight against the Avengers to do it. It'd be nice to see somebody NOT want to join the Avengers after Cap's bumbling nearly destroyed the whole world.

#18 Posted by SupremeHyperion (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

If Batman would have had just a little more prep time he could have stopped it all.... Damn you prep time

#19 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51: Hey, man, I'm with you. There are a lot of folks around here though who seem to think mass murder can be justified.

#20 Posted by acer51 (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I reply to all your comments I would like to remind you that Cyclops himself admits that the things he has done are wrong, he himself believes he belongs in jail, so making the argument he did no wrong is just stupid.

@xeon1cs said:

@acer51 said:

He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

Charles's death was 100% his own fault. There's no indication he killed millions of people when he was Dark Phoenix. The mutants didn't want the powers in the first place, oh well, it was a higher power that deemed it so. Even when mutants lost their powers after Wanda shit all over them, they were still hunted. It wasn't his dream. It was the Celestials.

What good did Cyclops do, uh...ended world hunger, gave free renewable energy to the world. Effectively created world peace. Stopped earthquakes (although this was a writer error, which they admitted was stupid, since this isn't scientifically possible). He was 100% fine as the Phoenix for the majority of this event.

Scott didn't restore mutants. It was already explained they were unable to reactive the X-Gene as long as the Phoenix was split among the five of them. The Phoenix was sent to Earth to get its host and restore mutants. They stated this in Uncanny X-Men. And Tony acknowledged he knew it was going to restore mutants in AvX Consequences #4.

What people aren't understanding is that, this may have been what Scott wanted. But it was 100% out of his hands. Mutants were going to come back, whether he wanted it or not.

100% his own fault?, Cyclops had too much power he was corrupting, it was clear the Phoenix was beating his morals down like the ring of doom. 1/5 power was too much, by the time he had 1/2 Emma Frost almost had him convinced to destroy the entire planet. And yes taking mutants powers away didn't help them, but there not giving the powers back. They are creating mutations in people who had no powers and maybe didn't even originally have an X-gene. But creating more mutants dosn't help the mutants who lost there powers, it hurts the people who had no problems to begin with but that's there problem right? 12 year old girls get burned at the stake because Cyclops "the higher power" gets to make that call huh? he gets to play god? No it was the Avengers fault it turned out this way but at that point Cyclops was out of control and had to be stopped. I do understand Cyclops reasons though, and he only has one good one, the prophecy that the rebirth of mutants would save the world, but such prophecy's were uncertain and isn't enough to justify Cyclops actions even if he did do it for a "greater good" the people who buy that crap are those who were on Iron-mans side in Civil war.

Read Uncanny X-men from Cyclops point of view where he contemplates on the moon, if you read it you can see how corrupting the phoenix was on him since the beginning, he said he couldn't feel emotion, he couldn't even feel love for his dead wife anymore, even at 1/5 he was struggling with himself. By the time he was at 1/2 he was considering destroying the world and eating human blood.

I know that he didn't do it himself, but it's what he wanted and his actions led to the end result.

And your right on that last point, mutants were coming back, there was no stopping this, but his actions during this event, and that he's glad he did the horrible things he did, even though he didn't need to pull any crap or even fight the Avengers the mutants were coming back, he just made chaos and killed people while he could.

@Sharkbite said:

Phoenix was coming. Cyclops did not create it. Cyclops did not summon it. Cyclops observed that it was coming. Blaming him for that is akin to blaming a Doctor if they discover you have cancer.

Phoenix was going to restart the mutant race. Nothing anyone was able to do demonstrated the even the faintest indication that it's mission could have been stopped; even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again). Given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the Mutant Race, but also for the Earth as a whole. Yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible. The Avengers plans (Hide Hope, Kill Hope, Tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, Give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and Pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's 'too much too fast') all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it. In fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix. But Captain Ego couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him.

Yeah, Chuck died. Chuck died when he went hunting down Cyclops. It's the ongoing theme of the story; the Avengers pick the fight, and Cyclops defends himself. Instead of blaming Scott for defending himself, the blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: either it's Xavier's fault for attacking Scott, or *gasp* it's Cap's fault for going out of his way to recruit Xavier and put him into that situation. Cap recruited him and sent him into a suicide mission that could not be won. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier; poor leadership and incompetetance from Captain America did.

And last Phoenix is a cosmic entity of destruction and rebirth. That is the Phoenix pattern: thrash everything, then build it back the way you want it. The Phoenix Force made it's will manifest in the conversation Scott had with Emma when it obtained greater control over them. The Phoenix Force wanted to destroy the entire Earth, then build it back perfect. While yes, there will be mutant conflict once again, and yes, lives will be lost to mutant villains and sentinels and everything else, ultimately no matter how many casualties are caused by the resurgence of mutants, it will not become worse than the option of Phoenix Destroys Entire Planet And Everyone Dies. Monday morning quarterback it all you want; there will be some negative fallout of the events, but this was the best possible outcome for everybody (mutant or human), and Cyclops pulled it off with the Avengers doing the darnedest to stop him and make things infinitely worse every step of the way.

Scott's the hero of the story. He can be painted as the villain for making the tough choices when every option hurts someone. Actually, with the garbage line-up for Thunderbolts in Marvel Now (using Punisher, Deadpool, and Red Hulk is not the same thing as using actual villains), Marvel is now lacking their Villains-You-Can-Relate-Too comic. I say take Cyclops, Magneto, Emma, and a handful of other people who still support them, and write a brand spanking new Brotherhood title following the mutants who are doing everything it takes to save the world, even when they have to fight against the Avengers to do it. It'd be nice to see somebody NOT want to join the Avengers after Cap's bumbling nearly destroyed the whole world.

My response is the same as my last lines typed in response to Xeon.

I agree and disagree with you on the first paragraph. Yes if the Avengers had trusted the X-men it probably would have been okay (altough I bellive this all had to take place for Hope to gain the strength to let it go). And as in my previous respone your right, the Phoniex was coming nothing was going to stop this. But considering this why is Cyclops happy that he killed at least hundreds of thousands of people? and don't say he can't be judged for his Phoenix force actions because he said he'd do it all again. And the Avengers weren't going to kill Hope (that was Wolverines idea). But they weren't going to do a better job at protecting her then the X-men so the Avengers are still wrong on this point, the Avengers actually stepped in at a point in an event that didn't help only made things worse.

Yes Chuck died, Chuck died only when it was clear Cyclops needed to be defeated, at that point he was actually considering destroying the planet, so I think it was justified for anyone (including the rest of the x-men) to step in once Cyclops had clearly become possessed. So is it Xaviers fault for helping the Avengers when HIS prize student is possessed, considering destroying the world and talking in extremely evil text? Yes I think at this point, despite Avengers stupidity it was justified for not only Xaiver, but the rest of the X-men to step in and take the Phoenix power from Cyclops. If you think at that point Cyclops was in his right mind, do you wanna buy a bridge from me?

The Phoenix actually isn't unstoppable, same way Galactus isn't unstoppable. However I do acknowledge the Avengers lack of ability to stop the Phoniex, and that they wasted time an resources on the X-men who were actually the good guy instead of trying to stop the phoniex from making it to earth.

Hero? no Hope was the hero. But Cyclops if he hadn't said he'd do it all again couldn't be blamed, because then you could just use the Phoniex possession argument, but Cyclops with that statement has taken responsibility for these actions, he did it to help fufil a prophecy though, maybe he's the antihero of this story?

#21 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

Before I reply to all your comments I would like to remind you that Cyclops himself admits that the things he has done are wrong, he himself believes he belongs in jail, so making the argument he did no wrong is just stupid.

@xeon1cs said:

@acer51 said:

He said he'd do it all again, meaning he'd kill Charles and the millions of people, just so he can bring back the mutants. The mutants arn't going to want those powers, there going to be feared and hunted. Cyclops just created loads of peril for an insane dream to bring progress to the so called "next step in human evolution".

What was the point of all this madness huh? What good did it do, Cyclops may have gotten what he wanted but lets not pretend he did anyone any favors.

All he did was bring the world into chaos with his war. Now thanks to him teenagers are going to burn in sentinel lazier because the "true mutant messiahs" Cyclops brought the mutants back.

So answer me this Viners? what good did Cyclops do?

Charles's death was 100% his own fault. There's no indication he killed millions of people when he was Dark Phoenix. The mutants didn't want the powers in the first place, oh well, it was a higher power that deemed it so. Even when mutants lost their powers after Wanda shit all over them, they were still hunted. It wasn't his dream. It was the Celestials.

What good did Cyclops do, uh...ended world hunger, gave free renewable energy to the world. Effectively created world peace. Stopped earthquakes (although this was a writer error, which they admitted was stupid, since this isn't scientifically possible). He was 100% fine as the Phoenix for the majority of this event.

Scott didn't restore mutants. It was already explained they were unable to reactive the X-Gene as long as the Phoenix was split among the five of them. The Phoenix was sent to Earth to get its host and restore mutants. They stated this in Uncanny X-Men. And Tony acknowledged he knew it was going to restore mutants in AvX Consequences #4.

What people aren't understanding is that, this may have been what Scott wanted. But it was 100% out of his hands. Mutants were going to come back, whether he wanted it or not.

100% his own fault?, Cyclops had too much power he was corrupting, it was clear the Phoenix was beating his morals down like the ring of doom. 1/5 power was too much, by the time he had 1/2 Emma Frost almost had him convinced to destroy the entire planet. And yes taking mutants powers away didn't help them, but there not giving the powers back. They are creating mutations in people who had no powers and maybe didn't even originally have an X-gene. But creating more mutants dosn't help the mutants who lost there powers, it hurts the people who had no problems to begin with but that's there problem right? 12 year old girls get burned at the stake because Cyclops "the higher power" gets to make that call huh? he gets to play god? No it was the Avengers fault it turned out this way but at that point Cyclops was out of control and had to be stopped. I do understand Cyclops reasons though, and he only has one good one, the prophecy that the rebirth of mutants would save the world, but such prophecy's were uncertain and isn't enough to justify Cyclops actions even if he did do it for a "greater good" the people who buy that crap are those who were on Iron-mans side in Civil war.

Uh..no. Xavier was trying to mentally shut him down. It was his own fault that Scott retaliated. Xavier of all people should know you don't try and do that. The Phoenix doesn't corrupt like that, it never has. Emma didn't have him convinced at all, every time she was like "Lets blow it up and remake it!" he would tell her it was a bad idea, or flat out no. Cyclops isn't the higher power, did you not even read the entirety of the event? Cyclops did not make these new mutants. Cyclops is not the higher powerful, it is the Celestials that deemed it so. He was out of control BECAUSE of the Avengers.

Read Uncanny X-men from Cyclops point of view where he contemplates on the moon, if you read it you can see how corrupting the phoenix was on him since the beginning, he said he couldn't feel emotion, he couldn't even feel love for his dead wife anymore, even at 1/5 he was struggling with himself. By the time he was at 1/2 he was considering destroying the world and eating human blood.

He stated he was going to stay strong, and not let it change him. He wasn't struggling with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force. He was all over the world fixing stuff. He wasn't destroying the world with 1/2 of the Phoenix Force. What does his telepathic dinner with Emma have to do with anything? You could see the look of disgust on his face when she told him, he had no idea what it was.

I know that he didn't do it himself, but it's what he wanted and his actions led to the end result.

Whether he wanted it or not, it was going to happen. Tony Stark already said he knew it would restore mutants. Regardless if he became the Phoenix or not, it would have restored mutants.

And your right on that last point, mutants were coming back, there was no stopping this, but his actions during this event, and that he's glad he did the horrible things he did, even though he didn't need to pull any crap or even fight the Avengers the mutants were coming back, he just made chaos and killed people while he could.

What horrible things? He was fixing the world and it was the Avengers that poked and prodded him until he had no choice but to poke back. He isn't glad that he did these horrible things, try taking things into context instead of as literal as possible. He stated he'd do it all again, and he would, who wouldnt? Xavier's death was tragic, he feels bad for it, that doesn't change the fact that Xavier basically forced him to do it, and his death forced the hand of Scarlet Witch and Hope, which in turn restored mutants. He restarted a species that was nearly made extinct because of Wanda. Let's not pretend like what she did wasn't 100x worse than what he was doing. Xavier was the only person we saw that he killed on panel. Assuming he killed thousands, or millions of people is pointless. For all we know, Namor killed more people in Wakanda than Scott did while he was Dark Phoenix.

#22 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51:

"Before I reply to all your comments I would like to remind you that Cyclops himself admits that the things he has done are wrong, he himself believes he belongs in jail, so making the argument he did no wrong is just stupid."

Read Avengers vs X-men consequences issue 2, Cyclops tells Wolverine that he could have a good defense if he had a good lawyer. Think of us as Cyclops' Lawyers.

"But Cyclops if he hadn't said he'd do it all again couldn't be blamed, because then you could just use the Phoniex possession argument, but Cyclops with that statement has taken responsibility for these actions, he did it to help fufil a prophecy though, maybe he's the antihero of this story?"

He's also sitting in prison being suicidal. You'd have to imply that while "he'd do it all again" he wouldn't allow the same things to happen. Would he oppose the Avengers and welcome the phoenix? Yes. Would he kill Professor X and take on the Phoenix force for himself? No.

"Yes I think at this point, despite Avengers stupidity it was justified for not only Xaiver, but the rest of the X-men to step in and take the Phoenix power from Cyclops. If you think at that point Cyclops was in his right mind, do you wanna buy a bridge from me?"

No Cyclops supporter has argued that Scott should keep the phoenix force for himself. Even when we defend the P5's actions prior to the no more Avengers comment (getting rid of weapons, providing for the hungry etc.), we understand they weren't in their right minds and liable to corruption. But that was the Avenger's fault.

While I think I summarized your position, if I didn't respond to everything important let me know what specific point I should have mentioned.

#23 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

Phoenix was coming. Cyclops did not create it. Cyclops did not summon it. Cyclops observed that it was coming. Blaming him for that is akin to blaming a Doctor if they discover you have cancer.

Phoenix was going to restart the mutant race. Nothing anyone was able to do demonstrated the even the faintest indication that it's mission could have been stopped; even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again). Given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the Mutant Race, but also for the Earth as a whole. Yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible. The Avengers plans (Hide Hope, Kill Hope, Tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, Give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and Pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's 'too much too fast') all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it. In fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix. But Captain Ego couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him.

Yeah, Chuck died. Chuck died when he went hunting down Cyclops. It's the ongoing theme of the story; the Avengers pick the fight, and Cyclops defends himself. Instead of blaming Scott for defending himself, the blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: either it's Xavier's fault for attacking Scott, or *gasp* it's Cap's fault for going out of his way to recruit Xavier and put him into that situation. Cap recruited him and sent him into a suicide mission that could not be won. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier; poor leadership and incompetetance from Captain America did.

And last Phoenix is a cosmic entity of destruction and rebirth. That is the Phoenix pattern: thrash everything, then build it back the way you want it. The Phoenix Force made it's will manifest in the conversation Scott had with Emma when it obtained greater control over them. The Phoenix Force wanted to destroy the entire Earth, then build it back perfect. While yes, there will be mutant conflict once again, and yes, lives will be lost to mutant villains and sentinels and everything else, ultimately no matter how many casualties are caused by the resurgence of mutants, it will not become worse than the option of Phoenix Destroys Entire Planet And Everyone Dies. Monday morning quarterback it all you want; there will be some negative fallout of the events, but this was the best possible outcome for everybody (mutant or human), and Cyclops pulled it off with the Avengers doing the darnedest to stop him and make things infinitely worse every step of the way.

Scott's the hero of the story. He can be painted as the villain for making the tough choices when every option hurts someone. Actually, with the garbage line-up for Thunderbolts in Marvel Now (using Punisher, Deadpool, and Red Hulk is not the same thing as using actual villains), Marvel is now lacking their Villains-You-Can-Relate-Too comic. I say take Cyclops, Magneto, Emma, and a handful of other people who still support them, and write a brand spanking new Brotherhood title following the mutants who are doing everything it takes to save the world, even when they have to fight against the Avengers to do it. It'd be nice to see somebody NOT want to join the Avengers after Cap's bumbling nearly destroyed the whole world.

My response is the same as my last lines typed in response to Xeon.

I agree and disagree with you on the first paragraph. Yes if the Avengers had trusted the X-men it probably would have been okay (altough I bellive this all had to take place for Hope to gain the strength to let it go). And as in my previous respone your right, the Phoniex was coming nothing was going to stop this. But considering this why is Cyclops happy that he killed at least hundreds of thousands of people? and don't say he can't be judged for his Phoenix force actions because he said he'd do it all again. And the Avengers weren't going to kill Hope (that was Wolverines idea). But they weren't going to do a better job at protecting her then the X-men so the Avengers are still wrong on this point, the Avengers actually stepped in at a point in an event that didn't help only made things worse.

Captain Americas idea was to put her on the moon, or in the Negative Zone. Wolverine told him that wouldn't work. Someone who had direct contact with a Phoenix host before. Regardless if Scott said he'd do it all again, doesn't change the fact he was right. Where is it shown that Cyclops is happy that he killed hundreds of thousands of people?

Yes Chuck died, Chuck died only when it was clear Cyclops needed to be defeated, at that point he was actually considering destroying the planet, so I think it was justified for anyone (including the rest of the x-men) to step in once Cyclops had clearly become possessed. So is it Xaviers fault for helping the Avengers when HIS prize student is possessed, considering destroying the world and talking in extremely evil text? Yes I think at this point, despite Avengers stupidity it was justified for not only Xaiver, but the rest of the X-men to step in and take the Phoenix power from Cyclops. If you think at that point Cyclops was in his right mind, do you wanna buy a bridge from me?

He never considered destroying the planet. Not once. That was Emma. It was Xaviers fault that he turned into Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix has never just turned people corrupt. Not ever, in the history of the entity has that ever happened without the outside influence of something/someone.

Hero? no Hope was the hero. But Cyclops if he hadn't said he'd do it all again couldn't be blamed, because then you could just use the Phoniex possession argument, but Cyclops with that statement has taken responsibility for these actions, he did it to help fufil a prophecy though, maybe he's the antihero of this story?

Who cares if he said he'd do it all again? You're missing the point that it was not up to him whether or not mutants were restored. It was simply the course of these actions that mutants were restored. Even if he didn't become the Phoenix host, mutants would have been restored. Why is it okay for Wanda to not be punished for committing genocide, but it's okay for Scott to be labelled as a villain and wrong, simply because he accepted responsibility and said he'd do it again? The answer is because she's an Avenger, and he's not.

#24 Edited by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2:

So if your children were living in Paris when it was being destroyed, would you feel the same way about Cyclops as you do now? I wouldn't.

You know the old saying...Power Corrupts

So yeah, while Cyclops intentions were good....he was not fit to wield the power of the Phoenix....the only one fit to wield Phoenix was Hope, and finally Tony figured that out(even though he built the machine that started this whole mess).

The power corrupted him...Acer51 is right, he was losing his emotions and touch with who he was. Xavier stepped in and tried to get Cyclops to stop....but it was ill conceived, YOU say that Xavier started the Dark Phoenix....but I say that there would've been a fight just as significant even if Xavier weren't involved, and it would've ended it Cyclops stealing Emma Frosts powers.

Betrayal was inevitable.....i just think it was ironic that Cyclops was the one who betrayed Emma, instead of the other way around.

Such an event was tramatizing to Cyclops....he was unconciously trying to find some method of redemption for losing Jean Grey by using the Phoenix to do something good. When he was finally defeated he took responsibility and confessed 1-on-1 to Beast that he responsible for countless thousands of people's deaths. All of them innocent people......but he said he'd do it all again because the mutants were back. While I understand that he was just happy about his race being brought back....he just didn't feel the remorse he should have, being responsible for Mass-Murder and saying he'd do it all over again?

You wanna be Cyclops lawyer? Cool.

He still killed thousands of innocent people. You can't ever deny that.

@xeon1cs:

Does it matter if he's happy that he killed Hundreds of thousands of innocent people? HE KILLED THEM. There is no justification for that many dead children. NONE.

#25 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn: Who made Cyclops kill all those people? You admit (while glossing over the fact) that Tony created the machine that gave him the power in the first place, but you neglect to remember that it was the Avengers who pushed the P5 into aggression. Especially Cyclops, who was able to keep it together the longest. If I were an adult who existed in the Marvel universe, superficially speaking, I would blame Cyclops. But as a reader looking from the outside in, this is the Avenger's mess. I never said Xavier started it, but he should have known better than to push Cyclops the way he did. I blame the Avengers, through and through here. He killed thousands of people while he was possessed and provoked. This is a justification used by even a few Avengers who are actually judging him.

Also he is not happy with the deaths, he is in prison contemplating suicide. You can't be that ignorant to assume that when Cyclops says he'll do it all again, he'll allow the exact same event to happen.

#26 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@soduh2:

So yeah, while Cyclops intentions were good....he was not fit to wield the power of the Phoenix....the only one fit to wield Phoenix was Hope, and finally Tony figured that out(even though he built the machine that started this whole mess).

Yes, and it was the Avengers that forced it upon him.

The power corrupted him...Acer51 is right, he was losing his emotions and touch with who he was. Xavier stepped in and tried to get Cyclops to stop....but it was ill conceived, YOU say that Xavier started the Dark Phoenix....but I say that there would've been a fight just as significant even if Xavier weren't involved, and it would've ended it Cyclops stealing Emma Frosts powers.

You do know this is exactly what happened to Jean, right? Someone tried to mind rape her, and Dark Phoenix was the result. The Phoenix doesn't just randomly corrupt you, it has never worked like that. Xavier caused his own death. And as a result, caused Dark Phoenix Cyclops.

Such an event was tramatizing to Cyclops....he was unconciously trying to find some method of redemption for losing Jean Grey by using the Phoenix to do something good. When he was finally defeated he took responsibility and confessed 1-on-1 to Beast that he responsible for countless thousands of people's deaths. All of them innocent people......but he said he'd do it all again because the mutants were back. While I understand that he was just happy about his race being brought back....he just didn't feel the remorse he should have, being responsible for Mass-Murder and saying he'd do it all over again?

How should he feell? He wasn't in control. He even stated that. Why is it okay for Wanda to be walking around after the shit she pulled?

He still killed thousands of innocent people. You can't ever deny that.

Wanda. Oh wait, she's an Avenger, so it's okay, right? That was Cap's excuse.

@xeon1cs:

Does it matter if he's happy that he killed Hundreds of thousands of innocent people? HE KILLED THEM. There is no justification for that many dead children. NONE.

Wanda killed thousands of mutants. Children included. She wasn't in control, so she got off easy. Why is it 100% different for Scott?

#27 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6471 posts) - - Show Bio

First, I'd like to state clearly that both sides acted like complete and utter @$$hats ...

Anyone arguing for the sanctity of one side or the other has managed to do what I cannot - find rationale and logic in absolute silliness.

It's near impossible to see any one side 'right' per se. I mean, our RL world leaders botch things terribly for the general economy, chasing after power and the almighty dollar first, then what's best for her people second, treading a very dangerous and fine line. But if the leaders of the 'free world' acted at any one time anywhere remotely similar to either Steve or Scott, we would all be suffering nuclear fallout at this point in time. Many times over in fact.

Even the gang of kids from Lord of the Flies acted with more maturity and restraint. And millions suffered and died as a result. Bravo Captain America ... bravo. Keep on thinking with your fists there 'hero'.

It was an extremely contrived plot to pit the two teams at one anothers throats. More time and better writing should have been invested to flesh out all the whys and wherefores - to give stronger motives for each to come to blows. I realize this is comics, but let's face it, comics cater to those with 3.99$ in their pockets to shell out monthly in the multiples for their comic fix. The fan base is not kids for the majority ... stop writing as though we are.

Conclusion: they were both poorly written, and they were both wrong. Poor character treatment, all around for cheap thrills and little substance.

#28 Posted by Hareil0079 (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Will this ever end? Give it up people, nobody came out of AvX in the right, continuing to take sides is embarrassing at this point.

This

#29 Posted by Kyle_Dornez (250 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Conclusion: they were both poorly written, and they were both wrong. Poor character treatment, all around for cheap thrills and little substance.

QFT. Whenever I opened any issue I've seen bad writing instead of actual event. (Damn, probably collective Vine-mind could write something better in about an hour). And it could've been fixed so easily, in the first couple of issues, like -

Cap: "Hey, Scott, there's unpredictable Cosmic Force approaching, it kinda may or may not scourch the Earth. Lets play this safe and put Hope, say, on the Moon."

Scott: (while being reasonable and NOT blasting Cap on spot) "Hmm, yeah, probably it is reasonable, let's play it safe and show the world how humans and mutants can cooperate with each other".

And the rest of the arc Hope would go all Dark Phoenix and threaten the world because Cable trained her as child soldier. How hard was that? O, right, that way there wouldn't be any "VS", we can't have THAT, right? Pff...

#30 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kyle_Dornez said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Conclusion: they were both poorly written, and they were both wrong. Poor character treatment, all around for cheap thrills and little substance.

QFT. Whenever I opened any issue I've seen bad writing instead of actual event. (Damn, probably collective Vine-mind could write something better in about an hour). And it could've been fixed so easily, in the first couple of issues, like -

Cap: "Hey, Scott, there's unpredictable Cosmic Force approaching, it kinda may or may not scourch the Earth. Lets play this safe and put Hope, say, on the Moon."

Scott: (while being reasonable and NOT blasting Cap on spot) "Hmm, yeah, probably it is reasonable, let's play it safe and show the world how humans and mutants can cooperate with each other".

And the rest of the arc Hope would go all Dark Phoenix and threaten the world because Cable trained her as child soldier. How hard was that? O, right, that way there wouldn't be any "VS", we can't have THAT, right? Pff...

Agreed.

But you know what? I was all for seeing X-Man fight Avenger. I love versus battles that are written correctly. Who doesn't want to know conclusively who'd kick who's arse taken within plausible context and wrapped in intelligent content? (Both of which were lacking in abundance here).

It was up to the writers to develop a cohesive, strong motive to see the two pitted against one another. And man, did they ever come up short. You're pretty much bang on in your scenario ... and this with but a smidgen of common sense ... it borders on lunacy what actually transpired and we're all supposed to buy into it. Which in and of itself wouldn't be so bad if we weren't also meant to enjoy it.

Both Marvel and DC have to grow with their audience and are falling behind IMHO. People are becoming more and more intellectual, needing their intellect justly stimulated. And this phenomenon will only grow generation after generation ... they need to realize we comic fans are now demanding ever more intelligent writing. Content riddled with the same cliche time and again won't do the deed. I'm all for fantasy and buying into folks flying, shooting laser beams and popping claws, but give us character building stories with emotional depth and plausible plot ... please?

/rant (for now!)

#31 Posted by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2:

I think he would allow every single exact thing to happen if he thought it would bring back mutants. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on that

Although I agree Wanda should have been taken down. Absolutely.

#32 Posted by acer51 (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@acer51 said:

Phoenix was coming. Cyclops did not create it. Cyclops did not summon it. Cyclops observed that it was coming. Blaming him for that is akin to blaming a Doctor if they discover you have cancer.

Phoenix was going to restart the mutant race. Nothing anyone was able to do demonstrated the even the faintest indication that it's mission could have been stopped; even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again). Given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the Mutant Race, but also for the Earth as a whole. Yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible. The Avengers plans (Hide Hope, Kill Hope, Tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, Give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and Pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's 'too much too fast') all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it. In fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix. But Captain Ego couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him.

Yeah, Chuck died. Chuck died when he went hunting down Cyclops. It's the ongoing theme of the story; the Avengers pick the fight, and Cyclops defends himself. Instead of blaming Scott for defending himself, the blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: either it's Xavier's fault for attacking Scott, or *gasp* it's Cap's fault for going out of his way to recruit Xavier and put him into that situation. Cap recruited him and sent him into a suicide mission that could not be won. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier; poor leadership and incompetetance from Captain America did.

And last Phoenix is a cosmic entity of destruction and rebirth. That is the Phoenix pattern: thrash everything, then build it back the way you want it. The Phoenix Force made it's will manifest in the conversation Scott had with Emma when it obtained greater control over them. The Phoenix Force wanted to destroy the entire Earth, then build it back perfect. While yes, there will be mutant conflict once again, and yes, lives will be lost to mutant villains and sentinels and everything else, ultimately no matter how many casualties are caused by the resurgence of mutants, it will not become worse than the option of Phoenix Destroys Entire Planet And Everyone Dies. Monday morning quarterback it all you want; there will be some negative fallout of the events, but this was the best possible outcome for everybody (mutant or human), and Cyclops pulled it off with the Avengers doing the darnedest to stop him and make things infinitely worse every step of the way.

Scott's the hero of the story. He can be painted as the villain for making the tough choices when every option hurts someone. Actually, with the garbage line-up for Thunderbolts in Marvel Now (using Punisher, Deadpool, and Red Hulk is not the same thing as using actual villains), Marvel is now lacking their Villains-You-Can-Relate-Too comic. I say take Cyclops, Magneto, Emma, and a handful of other people who still support them, and write a brand spanking new Brotherhood title following the mutants who are doing everything it takes to save the world, even when they have to fight against the Avengers to do it. It'd be nice to see somebody NOT want to join the Avengers after Cap's bumbling nearly destroyed the whole world.

My response is the same as my last lines typed in response to Xeon.

I agree and disagree with you on the first paragraph. Yes if the Avengers had trusted the X-men it probably would have been okay (altough I bellive this all had to take place for Hope to gain the strength to let it go). And as in my previous respone your right, the Phoniex was coming nothing was going to stop this. But considering this why is Cyclops happy that he killed at least hundreds of thousands of people? and don't say he can't be judged for his Phoenix force actions because he said he'd do it all again. And the Avengers weren't going to kill Hope (that was Wolverines idea). But they weren't going to do a better job at protecting her then the X-men so the Avengers are still wrong on this point, the Avengers actually stepped in at a point in an event that didn't help only made things worse.

Captain Americas idea was to put her on the moon, or in the Negative Zone. Wolverine told him that wouldn't work. Someone who had direct contact with a Phoenix host before. Regardless if Scott said he'd do it all again, doesn't change the fact he was right. Where is it shown that Cyclops is happy that he killed hundreds of thousands of people?

Yes Chuck died, Chuck died only when it was clear Cyclops needed to be defeated, at that point he was actually considering destroying the planet, so I think it was justified for anyone (including the rest of the x-men) to step in once Cyclops had clearly become possessed. So is it Xaviers fault for helping the Avengers when HIS prize student is possessed, considering destroying the world and talking in extremely evil text? Yes I think at this point, despite Avengers stupidity it was justified for not only Xaiver, but the rest of the X-men to step in and take the Phoenix power from Cyclops. If you think at that point Cyclops was in his right mind, do you wanna buy a bridge from me?

He never considered destroying the planet. Not once. That was Emma. It was Xaviers fault that he turned into Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix has never just turned people corrupt. Not ever, in the history of the entity has that ever happened without the outside influence of something/someone.

Hero? no Hope was the hero. But Cyclops if he hadn't said he'd do it all again couldn't be blamed, because then you could just use the Phoniex possession argument, but Cyclops with that statement has taken responsibility for these actions, he did it to help fufil a prophecy though, maybe he's the antihero of this story?

Who cares if he said he'd do it all again? You're missing the point that it was not up to him whether or not mutants were restored. It was simply the course of these actions that mutants were restored. Even if he didn't become the Phoenix host, mutants would have been restored. Why is it okay for Wanda to not be punished for committing genocide, but it's okay for Scott to be labelled as a villain and wrong, simply because he accepted responsibility and said he'd do it again? The answer is because she's an Avenger, and he's not.

Like I said, Captain Americas ideas were stupid. They shouldn't have gone to the moon or the Island, there objective should have been to stop the Phoenix not the X-men.

And he did consider destroying the planet, Emma almost has him convinced to destroy the earth before the Avengers/X-men final attack, he admits he can't remember why it would be wrong to destroy the earth. Clearly if he's lost moral values to the point where he can consider Xenocide he was too far gone. At this point he needed to be stopped I can show you the scans, he had lost morality to the point where he was actually considering agreeing with Emma and destroying the earth. If you don't believe me on this point I can find you the scans.

Yes mutants were going to be destroyed whether he had done all those awful things or not. But he'd do it all again, he'd let Xaiver die, he'd let hundreds of thousand (if not millions) of people die he'd do it all again. And when have I defended the Avengers in this event? You think I'm okay with Scarlet witch being allowed to walk free, while my freaking avatar has to got o jail? I'm disgusted by the Avengers hypocrisy and I have personal fan-anger against Captain America and Wanda, but that does NOT make what Cyclops did okay.

#33 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51 said:

@xeon1cs said:

@acer51 said:

Phoenix was coming. Cyclops did not create it. Cyclops did not summon it. Cyclops observed that it was coming. Blaming him for that is akin to blaming a Doctor if they discover you have cancer.

Phoenix was going to restart the mutant race. Nothing anyone was able to do demonstrated the even the faintest indication that it's mission could have been stopped; even when Hope took it on as a host, the options were to contain the power (and go all insane like previous Phoenixes until millions of people die) or break it up (which jumpstarts the mutants again). Given those two options, Cyclops opted not only for what was best for the Mutant Race, but also for the Earth as a whole. Yes, his plan involved some collateral damage, but he identified the plan with the least collateral damage possible. The Avengers plans (Hide Hope, Kill Hope, Tick off the Cosmic Force of Destruction, Give Phoenix Power to people who are not prepared to handle it, and Pick fights with the people doing remarkable good in the world because it's 'too much too fast') all stood to ultimately cause much, much more damage than Scott's plan of letting Hope handle it. In fact, essentially every bit of destruction that happened during AvX could have been avoided if the Avengers would have listened to the X-Men, who are the people on the planet that have the most experience dealing with the Phoenix. But Captain Ego couldn't accept that somebody else might know better than him.

Yeah, Chuck died. Chuck died when he went hunting down Cyclops. It's the ongoing theme of the story; the Avengers pick the fight, and Cyclops defends himself. Instead of blaming Scott for defending himself, the blame needs to be placed squarely where it belongs: either it's Xavier's fault for attacking Scott, or *gasp* it's Cap's fault for going out of his way to recruit Xavier and put him into that situation. Cap recruited him and sent him into a suicide mission that could not be won. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier; poor leadership and incompetetance from Captain America did.

And last Phoenix is a cosmic entity of destruction and rebirth. That is the Phoenix pattern: thrash everything, then build it back the way you want it. The Phoenix Force made it's will manifest in the conversation Scott had with Emma when it obtained greater control over them. The Phoenix Force wanted to destroy the entire Earth, then build it back perfect. While yes, there will be mutant conflict once again, and yes, lives will be lost to mutant villains and sentinels and everything else, ultimately no matter how many casualties are caused by the resurgence of mutants, it will not become worse than the option of Phoenix Destroys Entire Planet And Everyone Dies. Monday morning quarterback it all you want; there will be some negative fallout of the events, but this was the best possible outcome for everybody (mutant or human), and Cyclops pulled it off with the Avengers doing the darnedest to stop him and make things infinitely worse every step of the way.

Scott's the hero of the story. He can be painted as the villain for making the tough choices when every option hurts someone. Actually, with the garbage line-up for Thunderbolts in Marvel Now (using Punisher, Deadpool, and Red Hulk is not the same thing as using actual villains), Marvel is now lacking their Villains-You-Can-Relate-Too comic. I say take Cyclops, Magneto, Emma, and a handful of other people who still support them, and write a brand spanking new Brotherhood title following the mutants who are doing everything it takes to save the world, even when they have to fight against the Avengers to do it. It'd be nice to see somebody NOT want to join the Avengers after Cap's bumbling nearly destroyed the whole world.

My response is the same as my last lines typed in response to Xeon.

I agree and disagree with you on the first paragraph. Yes if the Avengers had trusted the X-men it probably would have been okay (altough I bellive this all had to take place for Hope to gain the strength to let it go). And as in my previous respone your right, the Phoniex was coming nothing was going to stop this. But considering this why is Cyclops happy that he killed at least hundreds of thousands of people? and don't say he can't be judged for his Phoenix force actions because he said he'd do it all again. And the Avengers weren't going to kill Hope (that was Wolverines idea). But they weren't going to do a better job at protecting her then the X-men so the Avengers are still wrong on this point, the Avengers actually stepped in at a point in an event that didn't help only made things worse.

Captain Americas idea was to put her on the moon, or in the Negative Zone. Wolverine told him that wouldn't work. Someone who had direct contact with a Phoenix host before. Regardless if Scott said he'd do it all again, doesn't change the fact he was right. Where is it shown that Cyclops is happy that he killed hundreds of thousands of people?

Yes Chuck died, Chuck died only when it was clear Cyclops needed to be defeated, at that point he was actually considering destroying the planet, so I think it was justified for anyone (including the rest of the x-men) to step in once Cyclops had clearly become possessed. So is it Xaviers fault for helping the Avengers when HIS prize student is possessed, considering destroying the world and talking in extremely evil text? Yes I think at this point, despite Avengers stupidity it was justified for not only Xaiver, but the rest of the X-men to step in and take the Phoenix power from Cyclops. If you think at that point Cyclops was in his right mind, do you wanna buy a bridge from me?

He never considered destroying the planet. Not once. That was Emma. It was Xaviers fault that he turned into Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix has never just turned people corrupt. Not ever, in the history of the entity has that ever happened without the outside influence of something/someone.

Hero? no Hope was the hero. But Cyclops if he hadn't said he'd do it all again couldn't be blamed, because then you could just use the Phoniex possession argument, but Cyclops with that statement has taken responsibility for these actions, he did it to help fufil a prophecy though, maybe he's the antihero of this story?

Who cares if he said he'd do it all again? You're missing the point that it was not up to him whether or not mutants were restored. It was simply the course of these actions that mutants were restored. Even if he didn't become the Phoenix host, mutants would have been restored. Why is it okay for Wanda to not be punished for committing genocide, but it's okay for Scott to be labelled as a villain and wrong, simply because he accepted responsibility and said he'd do it again? The answer is because she's an Avenger, and he's not.

Like I said, Captain Americas ideas were stupid. They shouldn't have gone to the moon or the Island, there objective should have been to stop the Phoenix not the X-men.

And he did consider destroying the planet, Emma almost has him convinced to destroy the earth before the Avengers/X-men final attack, he admits he can't remember why it would be wrong to destroy the earth. Clearly if he's lost moral values to the point where he can consider Xenocide he was too far gone. At this point he needed to be stopped I can show you the scans, he had lost morality to the point where he was actually considering agreeing with Emma and destroying the earth. If you don't believe me on this point I can find you the scans.

Please do show me where Scott considers destroying the Earth. He has continually said they weren't going to do that.

Yes mutants were going to be destroyed whether he had done all those awful things or not. But he'd do it all again, he'd let Xaiver die, he'd let hundreds of thousand (if not millions) of people die he'd do it all again. And when have I defended the Avengers in this event? You think I'm okay with Scarlet witch being allowed to walk free, while my freaking avatar has to got o jail? I'm disgusted by the Avengers hypocrisy and I have personal fan-anger against Captain America and Wanda, but that does NOT make what Cyclops did okay.

Okay? He would have done it again. So? Xavier killed himself, we can go over this as many times as you'd like. But his death was 100% his own fault. Zero indication that hundreds of thousand, or millions of people were killed. You're missing the point, of where Scott wasn't in control when he was Dark Phoenix. That was not "him".

#34 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically, Marvel was wrong.

#35 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

The only good thing to come out of AvX was the part where the writers stopped writting it.

And possibly Marvel NOW (at least some titles).

#36 Edited by Sinfulplayerx (193 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by Sinfulplayerx (193 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by stormphoenix (938 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: HAHAHA Love your Avatar :)

#39 Posted by Sinfulplayerx (193 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

(in Wanda's voice) No more haters....

#41 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupremeHyperion said:

If Batman would have had just a little more prep time he could have stopped it all.... Damn you prep time

Best response in the thread.

#42 Posted by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

In the end....Cyclops supporters don't have much of a justification for the murder he is responsible except for "Wanda did it!".

Ever heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?".

Well Cyclops isn't right.

#43 Posted by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn: That's not the defence at all, the defence that your discussing (there are others) is that Cyke has pretty much the exact same excuse Wanda does yet she gets off without having spent a moment in jail while he goes to jail, the Cyke fans just want the law to be applied consistently is all, right and wrong have nothing to do with that particular argument.

#44 Posted by VesKaGan (103 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny how many people speak of "murder" when they don't even know what that word means. There has to be an intention to kill a person. Xavier invaded Utopia with an army of Avengers and X-Men, then he tried to shut down the mind of the Phoenix host. Cyclops was attacked and he lashed out. No court on earth would count that as murder. And what he did as Dark Phoenix doesn't count either because he was possessed and driven insane and therefore it wasn't his responsibility. After everything the X-Men knew about the Phoenix, Professor Xavier should have known better than trying to shut down the mind of the Phoenix host anyways.

Cyclops was right, that the Phoenix would somehow reignite the mutant race.

#45 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2301 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd yet you have Cyke's pic as an avatar...

It's ok, he's using the cyclops that died and was upstaged by wolverine lol

#46 Posted by Dernman (15251 posts) - - Show Bio
@imperial90 said:

@Sufferthorn: That's not the defence at all, the defence that your discussing (there are others) is that Cyke has pretty much the exact same excuse Wanda does yet she gets off without having spent a moment in jail while he goes to jail, the Cyke fans just want the law to be applied consistently is all, right and wrong have nothing to do with that particular argument.

Ok so your saying that they would be ok with him being put in jail and staying there if Wanda also goes?    Ya no.  
Most of them don't even think he did anything to deserve going to prison all the while calling for Wanda to be tared, feathered then strung up. :p
#47 Edited by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman: Him not being guilty period is a completely separate argument that revolves around issues like self defence among others, the topic I was responding to was the specific criticism Sufferthorn brought up. I was making no comment on other arguments of Cyclop's fans, I was just pointing out that that particular argument has nothing to do with two wrongs making a right like Sufferthorn was arguing, it has to do with the law being consistently applied.

Most fans don't want Wanda tar'd and feathered for killing a few Avengers. the crime most similar to Cyclops own crime, X-fans don't really care about that, they want her tar'd and feathered for committing genocide, a completely different issue and not a crime Scott is guilty of.

#48 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

In the end....Cyclops supporters don't have much of a justification for the murder he is responsible except for "Wanda did it!".

Ever heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?".

Well Cyclops isn't right.

Uh...people say Cyclops was right because he stated the Phoenix Force was coming to restart the mutant race. It did. Tony Stark even acknowledged that. It was Cyclops's plan to give the Phoenix to Hope, instead of trying to hide her from it, or kill her, as the Avengers/Wolverine had planned, which would have destroyed Earth. Even before AvX Consequences, we were told in Uncanny X-Men that the Phoenix Force was coming to Earth to fix what Wanda had done. Which was what Cyclops was wanting all along.

There's really no scenario where he wasn't correct in this event. If by murder, you're referencing him killing Xavier, well that was in fact self-defense. Xavier did something, that he of all people should know, you aren't supposed to do. And that's attempt to mentally toy with a Phoenix Avatar. The Hellfire Club tried to do it with Jean, guess what? She went Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix Force doesn't just turn you corrupt, that's never how it has functioned. We also have no idea how many people were killed while he was Dark Phoenix, but he was also not in control, mentally or physically, so that's pretty irrelevant.

There's plenty of justification for why Cyclops was right. It's in AvX. It's in AvX: Consequences and it's in Uncanny X-Men. Don't know what more proof you need that he was right.

#49 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@Sufferthorn said:

In the end....Cyclops supporters don't have much of a justification for the murder he is responsible except for "Wanda did it!".

Ever heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right?".

Well Cyclops isn't right.

Uh...people say Cyclops was right because he stated the Phoenix Force was coming to restart the mutant race. It did. Tony Stark even acknowledged that. It was Cyclops's plan to give the Phoenix to Hope, instead of trying to hide her from it, or kill her, as the Avengers/Wolverine had planned, which would have destroyed Earth. Even before AvX Consequences, we were told in Uncanny X-Men that the Phoenix Force was coming to Earth to fix what Wanda had done. Which was what Cyclops was wanting all along.

There's really no scenario where he wasn't correct in this event. If by murder, you're referencing him killing Xavier, well that was in fact self-defense. Xavier did something, that he of all people should know, you aren't supposed to do. And that's attempt to mentally toy with a Phoenix Avatar. The Hellfire Club tried to do it with Jean, guess what? She went Dark Phoenix. The Phoenix Force doesn't just turn you corrupt, that's never how it has functioned. We also have no idea how many people were killed while he was Dark Phoenix, but he was also not in control, mentally or physically, so that's pretty irrelevant.

There's plenty of justification for why Cyclops was right. It's in AvX. It's in AvX: Consequences and it's in Uncanny X-Men. Don't know what more proof you need that he was right.

You forgot X-sanction.

#50 Posted by 80sBaby (1347 posts) - - Show Bio

Killing Xavier was NOT "self-defense." Charles was not a threat to Cyclops, who had the entire PF empowering him. That's like saying me killing a 10-year-old who attacks me with a stick is self-defense. Just stop it. The only thing Cyke was correct about was that the Phoenix could be used to re-populate the mutant "race." His methods, however, were completely wrong. That's the point. Neither side was totally right/wrong but you can't tell some Cyclops supporters that. I'd also like to point out that, had Cable suceeded in taking out the Avengers or if Cap listened to Cyke and left Utopia, then Hope would've most likely been possesed by the PF on the moon, which would lead to the dark future Bishop comes from.

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