Cyclops martial arts?

#1 Posted by tahmidk (283 posts) - - Show Bio

I was wondering what martik arts cyclops knows and perhaps even what level/belt he is, considering he managed to fend off those prison beasts in avx consequences

#2 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

He has a black belt in Judo and Aikido. He's defeated half a dozen men with his eyes closed and disarmed a gunman before he got a shot off.

Scott is a solid h2h combatant in his own right in terms of skill compared to Marvel's uppercrust, he falls far too short. Him defeating a group of thugs really isn't that impressive.

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#4 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@ApatheticAvenger: I win.

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#5 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14587 posts) - - Show Bio

He is a master at the art of Douchebagitus. it's kind of like jerkudo but modern and arrogant.

#7 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

He is a master at the art of Douchebagitus. it's kind of like jerkudo but modern and arrogant.

y u mad tho?

#8 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@ApatheticAvenger: At least I have scans.

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#9 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14587 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar:

#11 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@ApatheticAvenger said:

@god_spawn said:

@ApatheticAvenger: At least I have scans.

*sigh* yes of course, here's a few bonus ones. x]

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#12 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

#13 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

#14 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

He is great at submission holds on telepathic ladies

#15 Edited by Cyclops4ever (40 posts) - - Show Bio

YES! my hero is back THANK YOU MAGS!!! and I assume Emma and Magik are the ladies he is refurring to:)

#16 Posted by Aero_gt (840 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cyclops4ever: It's Danger and Magik, they still have to break Emma out.

#17 Posted by McKlayn (1069 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect said:

He is great at submission holds on telepathic ladies

I tried to learn that one myself, it's harder then it looks :-p

and yes you heard Jake, his Mutant power is Kung Fu!

#18 Posted by RemyThePirate (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Man... I remember thinking Cyclops was a weakling way back during the X-Men animated series. They were de-powered at one time (by Sinister) and all he could was cower behind a rock or something. I poked fun at my brother since he liked Cyclops.

Didn't appreciate him until after the Messiah CompleX storylines. He's been a favorite of mine since.

#19 Edited by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he's pretty good, I know a lot of well trained martial artist that can't take on that many armed guys.

#20 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

He has a black belt in Judo and Aikido. He's defeated half a dozen men with his eyes closed and disarmed a gunman before he got a shot off.

Scott is a solid h2h combatant in his own right in terms of skill compared to Marvel's uppercrust, he falls far too short. Him defeating a group of thugs really isn't that impressive.

hasnt he more or less won most if not all confrontations with wolverine?....arguably, one of the fiercest combatants in all of marvel?

#21 Posted by JonSmith (3988 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru said:

@god_spawn said:

He has a black belt in Judo and Aikido. He's defeated half a dozen men with his eyes closed and disarmed a gunman before he got a shot off.

Scott is a solid h2h combatant in his own right in terms of skill compared to Marvel's uppercrust, he falls far too short. Him defeating a group of thugs really isn't that impressive.

hasnt he more or less won most if not all confrontations with wolverine?....arguably, one of the fiercest combatants in all of marvel?

He's got a NUKE inside his SKULL that comes out through his EYE SOCKETS. Not hard to beat a scruffy guy with claws with that.

#22 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru: Cyclops and Wolverine have both had their fair share of getting the better of one another depending on the situation. Like Cyclops flipping Wolverine after the Proteus encounter IIRC, and Logan not being as savy of a fighter as he is today. Yet, in Schism, Logan had a chance to put Cyclops down relatively quickly yet he retracted his claws and pulled his punches. (Logan has broken steel walls, KO'd Roughhouse etc), but that fight also underestimated Cyclops' optic blast considering Logan did not go flying back when Cyclops could have easily done so.

The only reason I could say that might grant Scott the ability to hang with Logan like he does in h2h is

A) Logan being lazy/holding back which he does sometimes.

B) Cyclops knows the X-Men so well, he knows their moves basically before they do.

Outside of that I believe Storm has actually beaten Cyclops in h2h a few times, once when she didn't have her powers, and she managed to hang with him in h2h in World's Apart when under the Shadow King's control. But is a Storm bawse and would have to verify that for me since I just remember bits and pieces of their encounters. Storm is no where near Logan as far as skill goes so realistically, Cyclops shouldn't last long in h2h with Logan who regularly faces Marvel's best. Like Iron Fist, Captain America, Daredevil, Shang-Chi, Deadpool, Shatterstar, Nuke, Psylocke, Elektra, Spiral, Shingen, Ogun, Sabretooth, Cyber, Romulus, Daken, Lady Deathstrike, Mister X, Bucky and him as Winter Soldier, Silver Samurai, Omega Red etc.

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#23 Edited by THUNDERBOLT30 (10003 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I'd love to see a real h2h throw down between Storm and Cyclops but it hasn't happened yet. At least not a fight where they actually exchanged physical attacks and their skills and fighting prowess determined a winner. I have always thought they were pretty equal up to this point. Scott got a good nod to his h2h skills in World's Apart but he and Storm really didn't get into a h2h fight with each other in that story, or when they fought for leadership in classic uncanny.

@thread Scott is a pretty well rounded support character. He is mostly relegated to the roles of powerhouse, strategy and tactics expert of an ensemble cast, so his h2h is rarely featured. From what I have seen of him though thus far, I think he is one of the best h2h/armed combat fighters on the x-roster. He's below Wolverine, Psylocke, Gambit, and probably Domino, but above Dani Moonstar, Colossus, Frenzy, Cannonball, Husk and Hope, who are all good and capable h2h fighters. I think his skill level is more on par with Storm, Bishop and Kitty.

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#24 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@THUNDERBOLT30: Thanks for the clear up, TB. It's been awhile since I read both stories, so I wasn't really sure about either.

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#25 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

Cyclops and Wolverine have both had their fair share of getting the better of one another depending on the situation. Like Cyclops flipping Wolverine after the Proteus encounter IIRC, and Logan not being as savy of a fighter as he is today.

- Wolverine was already an incredibly savy fighter before then. Was his first appearance not in a comic fighting the hulk. its not like he was some amateur before then. All that weapon x stuff predates any fights with cyclops, and all that is instinct to him.

- but wolverine`s skills have bound to have increased....but again...so would have cyclops`s.

nowhere did they show wolverine retracting his claws during the fight in Schism as a means to go easy on cyclops....nor do they make any reference to him pulling his punches. It wouldnt make much sense because just as the fight started, cyclops told wolverine that if he detonates the bomb it would kill him (cyclops) too....wolverine responds with, ``your killing yourself``....so wolverine was willing to kill cyclops...so what sense does it make for him to be ok with killing cyclops...then holding back just seconds after...

also...it shows that the sentinel grabs them both....they break out...cyclops lunges at wolverine from behind..by the time cyclops gets there....wolverine`s claws are retracted.....and then brings them out as the fight continues....there is just nothing in the issue that supports the idea that wolverine was just going easy on cyclops...especially when he was clearly willing to kill cyclops at the start of the fight

im not saying cyclops is the more skilled fighter....wolverine has way more experience...but cyclops is definitely the smarter fighter...and has been able to put wolverine down more times than not

also...if we bother to argue that wolverine holds back.....than the same could be said for cyclops, who almost never unleashes a full optic blast

also..about the storm fight....she took his visor off to win the fight....just like she was holding back..so was he....because he could have easily unleashed his full optic blast after taking the visor...at that range..she would have gotten hit...and hard

#26 Edited by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru:

- Wolverine was already an incredibly savy fighter before then. Was his first appearance not in a comic fighting the hulk. its not like he was some amateur before then. All that weapon x stuff predates any fights with cyclops, and all that is instinct to him.

Fighting Hulk is irrelevant. Wolverine was just faster than Hulk allowing him to dance around him. Same reason Spider-Man could despite always being one of Marvel's worst h2h fighters.

- but wolverine`s skills have bound to have increased....but again...so would have cyclops`s.

I never said Cyclops' skills haven't, but he has nothing to show for it like Logan has. If you even try and argue that fact, then you aren't well versed on Logan.

nowhere did they show wolverine retracting his claws during the fight in Schism as a means to go easy on cyclops....nor do they make any reference to him pulling his punches. It wouldnt make much sense because just as the fight started, cyclops told wolverine that if he detonates the bomb it would kill him (cyclops) too....wolverine responds with, ``your killing yourself``....so wolverine was willing to kill cyclops...so what sense does it make for him to be ok with killing cyclops...then holding back just seconds after...
also...it shows that the sentinel grabs them both....they break out...cyclops lunges at wolverine from behind..by the time cyclops gets there....wolverine`s claws are retracted.....and then brings them out as the fight continues....there is just nothing in the issue that supports the idea that wolverine was just going easy on cyclops...especially when he was clearly willing to kill cyclops at the start of the fight
im not saying cyclops is the more skilled fighter....wolverine has way more experience...but cyclops is definitely the smarter fighter...and has been able to put wolverine down more times than not

Read it again and figure it out.

also...if we bother to argue that wolverine holds back.....than the same could be said for cyclops, who almost never unleashes a full optic blast

I know Scott hardly ever does, but in that fight Logan had chances to ram his claws through Scott's face and chose not to despite Cyclops blasting straight in the face. Logan could have crushed his skull with his punches if he wished and Logan can tank an optic blast a lot easier than Cyclops can adamantium claws.

also..about the storm fight....she took his visor off to win the fight....just like she was holding back..so was he....because he could have easily unleashed his full optic blast after taking the visor...at that range..she would have gotten hit...and hard

Thunderbolt cleared up the issue for me. I haven't read the fights in awhile so fair enough and my mistake on that part.

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#27 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

Fighting Hulk is irrelevant. Wolverine was just faster than Hulk allowing him to dance around him. Same reason Spider-Man could despite always being one of Marvel's worst h2h fighters.

a fight is a fight...despite the tactics used. If these guys want to use their superior speed to their advantage, why penalize them.....its h2h combat...not a boxing match where they just stand in front of each other and swing. Them being faster is irrelevant. Cause when hulk catches you, he has his advantage.

I never said Cyclops' skills haven't, but he has nothing to show for it like Logan has. If you even try and argue that fact, then you aren't well versed on Logan.

im not arguing against it.... i never said wolverne`s skills didnt improve....just that you cant play it off like he wasnt a killing machine before any confrontations with cyclops...cause he was...and even most recently in schism......with all the extra experience you talk about......and you may argue cyclops has nothing to show for any of his improved skills...but still being able to stand toe to toe with wolverine shows enough!

Read it again and figure it out.

such a cop-out response......but i did it anyway...and nope..not a thing in there.......

and what do you have to say about the fact that just before the fight started, wolverine made it clear he was willing to kill cyclops....

no evidence for any of what you say....but if you take your own advice and read it again.....you`d see the part im talking about....and you`ll notice the absence of these supposed hints that wolverine was holding back....probably becauwse his words indicate the complete opposite

I know Scott hardly ever does, but in that fight Logan had chances to ram his claws through Scott's face and chose not to despite Cyclops blasting straight in the face. Logan could have crushed his skull with his punches if he wished and Logan can tank an optic blast a lot easier than Cyclops can adamantium claws.

and you think scott couldnt just take off his visor and blast wolverine to hell at that range.....we already know he has enough force to break adamantium (age of apocalypse)......and as fast as wolverine is.....he cant dodge this

and thats not even the most impressive blast he`s done......he was able to put a hole in Onslaught after the hulk or thor managed to just crack it.....but more importantly...remember that in Age of apocalypse he was able to blow wolverines hand off.....so wolverine isnt too indestructible as far as an optic blast is concerned

#28 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10003 posts) - - Show Bio

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

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#29 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

except that he was willing to kill cyclops just seconds before the fight started....given that FACT...there would be no reason for him to hold back. He was completely fine killng cyclops via explosion , which calls into question any theory that he was holding back....where is the proof? cause i certainly got proof he he didnt care to leave cyclops alive

#30 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

again..im not saying he is the most skilled fighter out there....or that he is more skilled than wolverine......just that he has had wolverine's number in almost all encounters......if i were to rank all of marvel from overall best to worst i would not place cyclops above wolverine.....but i would say that cyclops can take wolvernine...for whatever reason...he has always had wolverines "number"

with that said...i would say he doesnt get a whole lot of credit for his H2H ability....ofcourse its rarely shown off....but the man can definitely handle himself...especially if he can go toe to toe with wolverine

#31 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10003 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

except that he was willing to kill cyclops just seconds before the fight started....given that FACT...there would be no reason for him to hold back. He was completely fine killng cyclops via explosion , which calls into question any theory that he was holding back....where is the proof? cause i certainly got proof he he didnt care to leave cyclops alive

I guess I would say the proof is in the plot. Marvel is not going to kill off Scott, let alone have Wolverine, the one who is supposeot have the moral high ground in Schism, decaptitating him that fight. Wolverine's strikes have shattered brick, damages superhumans (i.e. - Sabretooth for example), and has moved so fast he has disappeared out of a person's field of vision while they were looking at him. If he were written to his capacity and not holding back because he still cared about Scott, Cyclops would be dead. It's the first time this has happened with Wolverine.

@trutrutru said:

again..im not saying he is the most skilled fighter out there....or that he is more skilled than wolverine......just that he has had wolverine's number in almost all encounters......if i were to rank all of marvel from overall best to worst i would not place cyclops above wolverine.....but i would say that cyclops can take wolvernine...for whatever reason...he has always had wolverines "number"

with that said...i would say he doesnt get a whole lot of credit for his H2H ability....ofcourse its rarely shown off....but the man can definitely handle himself...especially if he can go toe to toe with wolverine

He can't go toe to toe with Wolverine in pure h2h. People who Wolverine has defeated or performed well against in h2h could beat Cyclops with little difficulty in unarmed combat . Schism was a plot driven conflict and Cyclops NEEDED his powers. Someone as physically strong as Logan would not have any problem fracturing a human skull if he wanted. Wolverine is WAY out of Scott's skill class. There is not one showing of pure h2h skill where Scott has taken Logan once his combat skills background was added. And even in their first physical conflict Wolverine was not in his right mind dueto being seriously shaken up by Proteus.

Don't get me wrong though. I think Cyclops is skilled enough to land hits on Logan. Most of the veteran X-Men with strong fighting skills (Bishop, Storm, and Kitty for example) have been able to land blows on Logan. But there is no question he would whoop them in a full on h2h fight. Scott has not done anything up to this point to be some type of exception.

I agree that Scott's h2h skills should be showcased more though. He has shown that he has impressive technique in his h2h reportoire, but he has only been pitted against street thugs. He needs to be pitted against more impressive opponents and perform well WITHOUT incorporating his powers, and in a way that does not redefine his character's role, otherwise it would seem like PIS/WIS. I'd love to see Scott fighting some SHIELD agents, since these guys are combat trained and are step above a street thug, and then graduate up to fighting Daisy Dugan (purported to be a skilled h2h fighter), or take on Hawkeye, since he is skilled mid-tier h2h fighter.

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#32 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

except that he was willing to kill cyclops just seconds before the fight started....given that FACT...there would be no reason for him to hold back. He was completely fine killng cyclops via explosion , which calls into question any theory that he was holding back....where is the proof? cause i certainly got proof he he didnt care to leave cyclops alive

I guess I would say the proof is in the plot. Marvel is not going to kill off Scott, let alone have Wolverine, the one who is supposeot have the moral high ground in Schism, decaptitating him that fight. Wolverine's strikes have shattered brick, damages superhumans (i.e. - Sabretooth for example), and has moved so fast he has disappeared out of a person's field of vision while they were looking at him. If he were written to his capacity and not holding back because he still cared about Scott, Cyclops would be dead. It's the first time this has happened with Wolverine.

@trutrutru said:

again..im not saying he is the most skilled fighter out there....or that he is more skilled than wolverine......just that he has had wolverine's number in almost all encounters......if i were to rank all of marvel from overall best to worst i would not place cyclops above wolverine.....but i would say that cyclops can take wolvernine...for whatever reason...he has always had wolverines "number"

with that said...i would say he doesnt get a whole lot of credit for his H2H ability....ofcourse its rarely shown off....but the man can definitely handle himself...especially if he can go toe to toe with wolverine

He can't go toe to toe with Wolverine in pure h2h. People who Wolverine has defeated or performed well against in h2h could beat Cyclops with little difficulty in unarmed combat . Schism was a plot driven conflict and Cyclops NEEDED his powers. Someone as physically strong as Logan would not have any problem fracturing a human skull if he wanted. Wolverine is WAY out of Scott's skill class. There is not one showing of pure h2h skill where Scott has taken Logan once his combat skills background was added. And even in their first physical conflict Wolverine was not in his right mind dueto being seriously shaken up by Proteus.

Don't get me wrong though. I think Cyclops is skilled enough to land hits on Logan. Most of the veteran X-Men with strong fighting skills (Bishop, Storm, and Kitty for example) have been able to land blows on Logan. But there is no question he would whoop them in a full on h2h fight. Scott has not done anything up to this point to be some type of exception.

I agree that Scott's h2h skills should be showcased more though. He has shown that he has impressive technique in his h2h reportoire, but he has only been pitted against street thugs. He needs to be pitted against more impressive opponents and perform well WITHOUT incorporating his powers, and in a way that does not redefine his character's role, otherwise it would seem like PIS/WIS. I'd love to see Scott fighting some SHIELD agents, since these guys are combat trained and are step above a street thug, and then graduate up to fighting Daisy Dugan (purported to be a skilled h2h fighter), or take on Hawkeye, since he is skilled mid-tier h2h fighter.

so your basing the results of that fight based on the fact that marvel would not kill scott in this story rather than wolverine being written as having not killed cyclops despite expressing and even attempting to via explosives?

as for H2H combat in general...i was under the assumption powers were not considered weapons and therefore were allowed....if your argument this whole time was that without anything but fighting potential who would win...then ok...wolverine would win....but otherwise i choose cyclops for that specific matchup....he has consistently come out on top....and as for wolverine not looking for the kill in those situations..same could be said about cyclops..the fact he could break adamantium with his blasts makes him a danger to wolverine's life if he were to ever be looking for a kill

....again..if this is purely fighting potential...no powers....wolverine would win.....and even though he would win under those circumstances...if we're stripping powers...then we're talking about wolverine without claws...or the adamantium granted to him through his healing factor...just raw combat skills

#33 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

personally i dont see the point in excluding powers...as that would make most of the marvel roster irrelevant to these type of discussions

#34 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10003 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru said:

personally i dont see the point in excluding powers...as that would make most of the marvel roster irrelevant to these type of discussions

But this thread is about his h2h fighting skills, and not what he can do this his powers. I agree with you that Scott incorporates his powers along with his physical combat very effectively, but showings like that also diminish what level he truly falls at if he couldn't use his powers. I thinks needing to use his powers to be effective in h2h makes his showings a lot less credible because he seems too dependent on them. The scans of his blind fighting the street thugs would still be impressive to me on some levels even if he wasn't blind, because it shows him deploying combat technique, balance and coordination, and that he doesn't NEED his powers. Granted against someone as tough as Logan is in melee combat I think all of the X-Men would need their powers to fight him.

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

except that he was willing to kill cyclops just seconds before the fight started....given that FACT...there would be no reason for him to hold back. He was completely fine killng cyclops via explosion , which calls into question any theory that he was holding back....where is the proof? cause i certainly got proof he he didnt care to leave cyclops alive

I guess I would say the proof is in the plot. Marvel is not going to kill off Scott, let alone have Wolverine, the one who is supposeot have the moral high ground in Schism, decaptitating him that fight. Wolverine's strikes have shattered brick, damages superhumans (i.e. - Sabretooth for example), and has moved so fast he has disappeared out of a person's field of vision while they were looking at him. If he were written to his capacity and not holding back because he still cared about Scott, Cyclops would be dead. It's the first time this has happened with Wolverine.

@trutrutru said:

again..im not saying he is the most skilled fighter out there....or that he is more skilled than wolverine......just that he has had wolverine's number in almost all encounters......if i were to rank all of marvel from overall best to worst i would not place cyclops above wolverine.....but i would say that cyclops can take wolvernine...for whatever reason...he has always had wolverines "number"

with that said...i would say he doesnt get a whole lot of credit for his H2H ability....ofcourse its rarely shown off....but the man can definitely handle himself...especially if he can go toe to toe with wolverine

He can't go toe to toe with Wolverine in pure h2h. People who Wolverine has defeated or performed well against in h2h could beat Cyclops with little difficulty in unarmed combat . Schism was a plot driven conflict and Cyclops NEEDED his powers. Someone as physically strong as Logan would not have any problem fracturing a human skull if he wanted. Wolverine is WAY out of Scott's skill class. There is not one showing of pure h2h skill where Scott has taken Logan once his combat skills background was added. And even in their first physical conflict Wolverine was not in his right mind dueto being seriously shaken up by Proteus.

Don't get me wrong though. I think Cyclops is skilled enough to land hits on Logan. Most of the veteran X-Men with strong fighting skills (Bishop, Storm, and Kitty for example) have been able to land blows on Logan. But there is no question he would whoop them in a full on h2h fight. Scott has not done anything up to this point to be some type of exception.

I agree that Scott's h2h skills should be showcased more though. He has shown that he has impressive technique in his h2h reportoire, but he has only been pitted against street thugs. He needs to be pitted against more impressive opponents and perform well WITHOUT incorporating his powers, and in a way that does not redefine his character's role, otherwise it would seem like PIS/WIS. I'd love to see Scott fighting some SHIELD agents, since these guys are combat trained and are step above a street thug, and then graduate up to fighting Daisy Dugan (purported to be a skilled h2h fighter), or take on Hawkeye, since he is skilled mid-tier h2h fighter.

so your basing the results of that fight based on the fact that marvel would not kill scott in this story rather than wolverine being written as having not killed cyclops despite expressing and even attempting to via explosives?

as for H2H combat in general...i was under the assumption powers were not considered weapons and therefore were allowed....if your argument this whole time was that without anything but fighting potential who would win...then ok...wolverine would win....but otherwise i choose cyclops for that specific matchup....he has consistently come out on top....and as for wolverine not looking for the kill in those situations..same could be said about cyclops..the fact he could break adamantium with his blasts makes him a danger to wolverine's life if he were to ever be looking for a kill

....again..if this is purely fighting potential...no powers....wolverine would win.....and even though he would win under those circumstances...if we're stripping powers...then we're talking about wolverine without claws...or the adamantium granted to him through his healing factor...just raw combat skills

Pretty much yes. When has Cyclops ever taken that kind of a beating prior to that fight? Soctt has been KO'd by less physical force. If written to capacity superhuman punches enhanced by adamantium bone would easily incapacitate Scott, if not flat out kill him. There is no other point to made with that fight other than based on Logan's history and physical ability, the plot required Cyclops to survive. I'm not staitng that Scott is not competent enough to give Logan a good fight (with his powers though), but that is not the point of this thread.

I am talking about pure h2h combat. Logan would not need his adamantium, superhuman physicality or healing factor to beat Scott. Logan is just far too skilled and would not be the proper measuring stick for Cyclops ability in unarmed combat. I look at the type of character Cyclops is, mainly an energy powerhouse and not the high level h2h expert like Wolverine, so when you compare him to other characters who are not designed to be h2h experts but have combat training and/or experience (Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Magneto, Bishop, Ms.Marvel, Wonder Man, Iceman, Rachel Grey, Sunspot, Magma, etc.), how well does he rank? I think he ranks very well, since most of these type of characters are not as skilled as he is in h2h. But when we compare him to characters who are designed to be mainly h2h experts (Black Widow, Elektra, Daredevil, Wolverine, etc.) he will always fall short. It's not a slight on Scott at all IMO, since that is not his primary role on a team. I think he is one of the few unique powerhouse characters that is very well rounded and quite skilled at h2h. Most powerhouse and even some mid tier h2h characters on earth would likely lose to Scott in h2h.

I hope that explains it better. I don't want to make it seem like I am trying to bash Cyclops.

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#35 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@trutrutru said:

personally i dont see the point in excluding powers...as that would make most of the marvel roster irrelevant to these type of discussions

But this thread is about his h2h fighting skills, and not what he can do this his powers. I agree with you that Scott incorporates his powers along with his physical combat very effectively, but showings like that also diminish what level he truly falls at if he couldn't use his powers. I thinks needing to use his powers to be effective in h2h makes his showings a lot less credible because he seems too dependent on them. The scans of his blind fighting the street thugs would still be impressive to me on some levels even if he wasn't blind, because it shows him deploying combat technique, balance and coordination, and that he doesn't NEED his powers. Granted against someone as tough as Logan is in melee combat I think all of the X-Men would need their powers to fight him.

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

@trutrutru said:

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

Just chiming in on an interesting conversation. I have to say I agree with God_Spawn.

Ultimately, Wolverine outclasses Cyclops in EVERY WAY (physicality, skills, endurance, damage soak, etc.). I agree with you both that Cyclops can blast Wolverine to kingdom come with his blasts. With his powers I think Scott can very possibly incapacitate Logan but, in their Schism fight, Logan could have ended Scott rather easily vs it would take multiple blasts to incapacitate Logan. Superhuman punches or kicks from Logan would leave Cyclop's head splattered to pieces if he wanted, so I don't think there is much of a question that Wolverine was holding back.

except that he was willing to kill cyclops just seconds before the fight started....given that FACT...there would be no reason for him to hold back. He was completely fine killng cyclops via explosion , which calls into question any theory that he was holding back....where is the proof? cause i certainly got proof he he didnt care to leave cyclops alive

I guess I would say the proof is in the plot. Marvel is not going to kill off Scott, let alone have Wolverine, the one who is supposeot have the moral high ground in Schism, decaptitating him that fight. Wolverine's strikes have shattered brick, damages superhumans (i.e. - Sabretooth for example), and has moved so fast he has disappeared out of a person's field of vision while they were looking at him. If he were written to his capacity and not holding back because he still cared about Scott, Cyclops would be dead. It's the first time this has happened with Wolverine.

@trutrutru said:

again..im not saying he is the most skilled fighter out there....or that he is more skilled than wolverine......just that he has had wolverine's number in almost all encounters......if i were to rank all of marvel from overall best to worst i would not place cyclops above wolverine.....but i would say that cyclops can take wolvernine...for whatever reason...he has always had wolverines "number"

with that said...i would say he doesnt get a whole lot of credit for his H2H ability....ofcourse its rarely shown off....but the man can definitely handle himself...especially if he can go toe to toe with wolverine

He can't go toe to toe with Wolverine in pure h2h. People who Wolverine has defeated or performed well against in h2h could beat Cyclops with little difficulty in unarmed combat . Schism was a plot driven conflict and Cyclops NEEDED his powers. Someone as physically strong as Logan would not have any problem fracturing a human skull if he wanted. Wolverine is WAY out of Scott's skill class. There is not one showing of pure h2h skill where Scott has taken Logan once his combat skills background was added. And even in their first physical conflict Wolverine was not in his right mind dueto being seriously shaken up by Proteus.

Don't get me wrong though. I think Cyclops is skilled enough to land hits on Logan. Most of the veteran X-Men with strong fighting skills (Bishop, Storm, and Kitty for example) have been able to land blows on Logan. But there is no question he would whoop them in a full on h2h fight. Scott has not done anything up to this point to be some type of exception.

I agree that Scott's h2h skills should be showcased more though. He has shown that he has impressive technique in his h2h reportoire, but he has only been pitted against street thugs. He needs to be pitted against more impressive opponents and perform well WITHOUT incorporating his powers, and in a way that does not redefine his character's role, otherwise it would seem like PIS/WIS. I'd love to see Scott fighting some SHIELD agents, since these guys are combat trained and are step above a street thug, and then graduate up to fighting Daisy Dugan (purported to be a skilled h2h fighter), or take on Hawkeye, since he is skilled mid-tier h2h fighter.

so your basing the results of that fight based on the fact that marvel would not kill scott in this story rather than wolverine being written as having not killed cyclops despite expressing and even attempting to via explosives?

as for H2H combat in general...i was under the assumption powers were not considered weapons and therefore were allowed....if your argument this whole time was that without anything but fighting potential who would win...then ok...wolverine would win....but otherwise i choose cyclops for that specific matchup....he has consistently come out on top....and as for wolverine not looking for the kill in those situations..same could be said about cyclops..the fact he could break adamantium with his blasts makes him a danger to wolverine's life if he were to ever be looking for a kill

....again..if this is purely fighting potential...no powers....wolverine would win.....and even though he would win under those circumstances...if we're stripping powers...then we're talking about wolverine without claws...or the adamantium granted to him through his healing factor...just raw combat skills

Pretty much yes. When has Cyclops ever taken that kind of a beating prior to that fight? Soctt has been KO'd by less physical force. If written to capacity superhuman punches enhanced by adamantium bone would easily incapacitate Scott, if not flat out kill him. There is no other point to made with that fight other than based on Logan's history and physical ability, the plot required Cyclops to survive. I'm not staitng that Scott is not competent enough to give Logan a good fight (with his powers though), but that is not the point of this thread.

I am talking about pure h2h combat. Logan would not need his adamantium, superhuman physicality or healing factor to beat Scott. Logan is just far too skilled and would not be the proper measuring stick for Cyclops ability in unarmed combat. I look at the type of character Cyclops is, mainly an energy powerhouse and not the high level h2h expert like Wolverine, so when you compare him to other characters who are not designed to be h2h experts but have combat training and/or experience (Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Magneto, Bishop, Ms.Marvel, Wonder Man, Iceman, Rachel Grey, Sunspot, Magma, etc.), how well does he rank? I think he ranks very well, since most of these type of characters are not as skilled as he is in h2h. But when we compare him to characters who are designed to be mainly h2h experts (Black Widow, Elektra, Daredevil, Wolverine, etc.) he will always fall short. It's not a slight on Scott at all IMO, since that is not his primary role on a team. I think he is one of the few unique powerhouse characters that is very well rounded and quite skilled at h2h. Most powerhouse and even some mid tier h2h characters on earth would likely lose to Scott in h2h.

I hope that explains it better. I don't want to make it seem like I am trying to bash Cyclops.

seems i didnt understand the exact parameters of this discussion...with that said..no powers....wolverine wins

as for with powers:

Pretty much yes. When has Cyclops ever taken that kind of a beating prior to that fight? Soctt has been KO'd by less physical force. If written to capacity superhuman punches enhanced by adamantium bone would easily incapacitate Scott, if not flat out kill him.

this is where things get wishy washy....the part of your theory is based on cyclops having been ko'd by lesser force in the past...because he was written that way before...but again...this is how this was written....cyclops was just written as being able to withstand this kind of a beating....its just too convenient to use this reasoning as part of your argument, yet ignore it when used against you....is cyclops incapable of getting tougher/being battle hardened at all?

also...in Dark Avengers vs x-men....cyclops took a similar beating from norman osborn using an iron man suit......another example of a durable metal being pounded into his face whenever he got punched in the face.....and wasnt KO'd by that......so you cant chalk this fight with wolverine up as being some isolated instance or lapse in writer judgement...and Norman was definitely looking to kill

so now that we've established this as not being some random instance....we still have the proof of wolverine being just fine with killing cyclops for there being any serious weight to the idea that he was going easy on him....he was trying to protect the other mutants..even if it meant cyclops being killed.....cyclops withstood the beating....there were no hints in dialogue or in the panels that wolverine was going easy on cyclops.....and its not the only time cyclops has been able to withstand this type of punishment

no worries...i dont see it as you trying to bash cyclops...i just dont agree with the reasoning under the scenario with powers....but yes....wolverine would take him without powers....

also....i wasnt trying to argue wolverine would need his powers to take cyclops in a strictly H2H fight....just that adamantium punches are to be excluded from such a scenario in the case it was being factored in at all

#36 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10003 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru: That Norman Osborne fight....I DOUBT it was remotely close to what Wolverine gave Scott, but you know what? We don't have to agree on this. I think we are on the same page on the point of the thread as far as h2h skills is concerned, so I'll leave it at that. I enjoyed the discssion though.

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#37 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

actually it wasnt.. just looked it up...not as i remembered....lol....i still have my opinion..and it differs from yours....but i do concede to H2H skills...wolverine for sure....he is after all..a killing machine

#38 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah...its more implied that he was punched in the face....i thought they actually showed it....but there is definitely cracking on the visor....but for the most part...it was an energy based fight

#39 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@trutrutru:

also...in Dark Avengers vs x-men....cyclops took a similar beating from norman osborn using an iron man suit......another example of a durable metal being pounded into his face whenever he got punched in the face.....and wasnt KO'd by that......so you cant chalk this fight with wolverine up as being some isolated instance or lapse in writer judgement...and Norman was definitely looking to kill

I wanted to stay out of this but the fact you used this is beyond me. The Iron Patriot suit was a class 100 piece of machine. There is a difference between being durable and having a pain tolerance. Cyclops is a normal human durability wise, he shouldn't even be able to stay conscious after a casual smack from it let alone have a head, especially since Norman wanted him dead.

And again, Cyclops and Wolverine both have gotten a good amount of showings one upping each other. Fact. Wolverine has embarrassed Cyclops on a few occasions. Fact. Cyclops has gotten the better of Logan on a few occasions. Fact. They can both get an upper hand on each other and both have depending on the situation. I can show Cyclops blasting Wolverine out the window from his bedroom when he made quips about him having sex with Emma. I can show Cyclops judo flipping him when the X-Men thought he was the Phoenix. I can show Scott blasting Logan away from the battlefield easily or nailing him from a tree. I can also just as easily show Wolverine getting the Prime Sentinel when Cyclops couldn't because it was too fast. I can show Wolverine dodging 3 separate optic blasts and then when he gets in close, Cyclops screams and throws his arms up. I can show Wolverine ducking an optic blast from far away due to sensing the change in air pressure. I can show Wolverine when he was Death waltzing right through his blast and cold cocking him right in the face.

Their situations vary and both have gotten the better of each other.

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#40 Edited by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

im not exactly seeing the misstep in bringing the osborn fight up as it attests to cyclops being able to withstand more than people give him credit for.....is the argument here about how unlikely that is? cause if thats what we're gonna start arguing, then pretty much every comic issue is going to have something to nit pick at.....he was able to withstand it.....withstood wolverine's punches....its not some random isolated event; what with 2 examples within a reasonable amount of time of each other

as for wolverine walking through an optic blast....that was as death...the horsemen are enhanced or endowed with new abilities....basically..not your standard wolverine....it was an enhanced wolverine....an enhancement that i dont see evidence of fully sticking seeing as how we've seen cyclop's optic blasts send wolverine flying since then

if there are situations in which they both have gotten the better of each other.....why is it so hard to believe that cyclops could hang with wolverine? as for myself personally...i feel like i've seen more instances in which cyclops gets one over on wolverine than i have of wolverine doing that to cyclops.

i base my opinion on that.....as well as cyclop's ability to destroy adamantium (many out there can beat wolverine...but only a few have the potential to kill him...this makes cyclops one of the few)

your argument rested on a theory that references some idea there is no evidence for other than..just cause....because according to wolverine's actions....he was willing to protect the mutants on the island even it meant killing cyclops..so again....this idea that he was going easy on him...despite there being evidence that says otherwise.....just doesnt hold up to me

#41 Posted by trutrutru (51 posts) - - Show Bio

with that said....my opinion is my personal opinion.....not yours....i respect your opinion.....its fair to be of the opinion that wolverine can take cyclops...he's a proven combatant....and has fought with the toughest of them....i just dont see eye to eye with your specific examples for why you feel he can take cyclops and why you dismiss the schism fight

.....i think wolverine is a deadlier fighter for sure.....but in my opinion...this is a matter of an unfavorable matchup for wolverine...and my idea of the outcome is very specific to these two, as i can definitely admit that wolverine can take on foes cyclops just would not be able to hang with (like hulk)

im not knocking wolverine...just think its not an ideal matchup for him based on past confrontations with these two.

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