Why Cyborg's Current Form is a Poor Representation of Blacks

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#1 Edited by Superdork (917 posts) - - Show Bio

BleedingCool.com ran an article a month or so ago about how some fans reacted negatively to DC's African American characters who look like monsters.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/12/22/when-black-character-not-black-character/

To a lot of fans, the negative reaction toward monstrous Black Characters did not make sense since there are plenty of White characters who are monsters. So why can't Blacks be monsters too?

Well, it has to do with Black history. For hundreds of years, Blacks have been regarded as sub-human. This idea did not just pervade social thought, but also scientific thought. Plenty of scientists have tried to find scientific reasons for why Blacks are inferior and subhuman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroid

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=152795&sn=Detail

http://mailstar.net/pierce.html

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-3-2005_pg4_24

Some people think that racism is dead because we have a Black President, but this is far from true. Not only was there a huge racist backlash in comics against Miles Morales from some fans, but recently a songstress has called for the extermination of subhuman Black people.

http://kotaku.com/5886811/songstress-unloads-racist-rant-on-twitter

And this songstress was born and raised in New York City. In America.

Racism is obviously not dead in America, and is sure as heck is not dead abroad. Sometimes people forget that other countries around the world are not as open minded as some Americans. In China, there are recent documentations of women who use skin lighteners because they find dark skin disugsuting. Some claim that if they were to become as dark as Black people, then they would commit suicide.

http://www.thechinaexpat.com/racism-in-china/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110127225951AA6TI7m

http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/understanding-chinese-women.htm

Now I deeply appreciate DC Comic's commitment to diversity. Not only is it important to provide Black youth with positive role-models. It's also a way to showing people that Black people are not inferior or sub-human.

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=152795&sn=Detail

DC has done a great job with their Cyborg. I love the character and am happy that he is finally in the lime-light--even though some fans still don't think he is Justice League material.

But the problem is the negative image that it puts forth for the Black Community nationally and internationally. He depicts this image of Black people as less human. A half-man.

Some people think that Cyborg can't work as a character unless he looks physically monstrous--unless he has a metal plate covering his face (even though White characters like Metallo constanstly have prosthetic skin). Cyborg needs something to stew over.

I think that he can still stew over the fact that even though he looks human, he is separated. He's had to give up his dreams. It works for Clark Kent. Bruce Wayne broods simply over the fact that he has a mission that he can't back away from. He doesn't need to forever be separated from humanity in every conceivable way. I don't think that he would be able to star in a solo title if he remains the way that he's been in the past, because he's too much of a one note character. If readers can't relate to his situation and they don't want to put themselves into his situation, then he won't sell titles on his own. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, and even Aquaman all have a high degree of wish-fulfillment and relate-ability. Cyborg doesn't have either.

Even Hulk and Swamp Thing can revert to looking human.

There's a reason that Marvel's Thing can't hold a solo either: he's too pigeon-holed into his role as the team brooder. He's too depressing.

I want Cyborg to be a successful, popular, stand-alone character but being DC's version of the Thing won't lead to that.

My Solution: make his robotics internal like in Smallville. Get rid of the face plate. Sometimes a little goes a long way.

#2 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

Racism isnt dead because people see it everywhere.

In the words of Morgan GodBorn Freeman when asked how to end racism: " Stop talking about it"

And Cyborg looks awesome with his robot parts. Badass

#3 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg is fine the way he is. I still think, however, it should have been Steel on the JLA instead.

#4 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32632 posts) - - Show Bio

Saying Cyborg looks like a cyborg because of racism is the stupidest god damn thing I have ever heard 

#5 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

Cyborg is fine the way he is. I still think, however, it should have been Steel on the JLA instead.

Yeah, cyborg would've been better in TT

Also, how is he sub human if he is a freaking roboticly enhanced human with a father (who is also black) that is some kind of robotic engineering super genius???

#6 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Yeah if anything he's metahuman.

#7 Posted by EdBlank (492 posts) - - Show Bio

People who deny racism exists will just simply deny it no matter what. People who believe racism still exists will see it everywhere. As part of the latter group: I see it everywhere... cause it is everywhere. It's subtle. Those who deny it say "Look I don't see any Klan hoods anywhere so everything must be all good". Meanwhile, the Klan has explicitly told their soldiers "Don't wear a big KKK patch on the back of your jacket, don't use racial slurs. It's 2012 and we have to bang smarter". That being said: I don't think anyone is talking about hordes of Nazis rounding people up, we are talking about "I know for SURE the Black guy is gonna die first in Chronicle" before we ever saw it. Why? Cause they always do that s***. I can't figure out a reason per se, but it's no coincidence. Here's the simple facts: you will never see a Black hero living in another galaxy unless that galaxy is a giant ghetto and his Millenium Falcon is a Cadillac. That's racism. You think "Black=Ghetto". I am not saying it does or doesn't, just saying that America's collective brain is tuned to that frequency. In the case of Cyborg, I agree. No one will want to follow him through his daily life as a 2012 Frankenstein's Monster. He is automatically never going to break out just by the way he looks.

#8 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7535 posts) - - Show Bio

Who the hell looks at Cyborg and thinks racism? I haven't had that run across my mind once.

#9 Posted by gangly (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

Here's the simple facts: you will never see a Black hero living in another galaxy unless that galaxy is a giant ghetto and his Millenium Falcon is a Cadillac.

uhhhhhhhh. care to elaborate on that?

#10 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11060 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@Gambit1024 said:

Cyborg is fine the way he is. I still think, however, it should have been Steel on the JLA instead.

Yeah, cyborg would've been better in TT

Also, how is he sub human if he is a freaking roboticly enhanced human with a father (who is also black) that is some kind of robotic engineering super genius???

In the voice of Pauly D... THANK YOU THANK YOU THAAAAANK YOU! Steel SHOULD be the guy in JLA rather than Cyborg and Cyborg should be in Titans. THAAAAANK YOU PEOPLE <3

#11 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol. Racism is still prevalent, but I don't think this is related to it in any manner.

#12 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

People who deny racism exists will just simply deny it no matter what. People who believe racism still exists will see it everywhere. As part of the latter group: I see it everywhere... cause it is everywhere. It's subtle. Those who deny it say "Look I don't see any Klan hoods anywhere so everything must be all good". Meanwhile, the Klan has explicitly told their soldiers "Don't wear a big KKK patch on the back of your jacket, don't use racial slurs. It's 2012 and we have to bang smarter". That being said: I don't think anyone is talking about hordes of Nazis rounding people up, we are talking about "I know for SURE the Black guy is gonna die first in Chronicle" before we ever saw it. Why? Cause they always do that s***. I can't figure out a reason per se, but it's no coincidence. Here's the simple facts: you will never see a Black hero living in another galaxy unless that galaxy is a giant ghetto and his Millenium Falcon is a Cadillac. That's racism. You think "Black=Ghetto". I am not saying it does or doesn't, just saying that America's collective brain is tuned to that frequency. In the case of Cyborg, I agree. No one will want to follow him through his daily life as a 2012 Frankenstein's Monster. He is automatically never going to break out just by the way he looks.

I agree with everything except the last part, I don't think Cyborg being a "2012 Frankenstein's Monster" will effect his popularity at all. Frankly being black would effect his chances more than that.

#13 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

the problem is black character aren't own person and have a unique strong story to tell. the best black superhero in comics is spawn. of course he's dead now. @Edbank why did the black guy die? first i thought it was a pretty kickass movie.

#14 Posted by EdBlank (492 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first. There's no big reason it's just a subliminal reminder or some kind of subconscious symbol. It's weird. I don't really know why, but they do that s*** ALL THE TIME. As far as Black Luke Sywalker: every black movie is about slavery and poverty. There is no black LOTR or Matrix. If they did make an all black movie in space I guarantee they would be fighing against an intergalactic "The Man" and have space 40s. Why? That's what we (Americans, Earthlings) think about black people. That's what I'm trying to hip y'all to: it's a subtle veneer that overlays all our interactions. It's kind of benign but it's annoying. Imagine you were bald and everything everyone said to you started out with "I knew this bald guy once" or "They have a new baldness cure I read about" you'd be like "Okay! Enough with the bald s***." Back to Cyborg: He can never become a reporter and just have a regular life cause half his face is metal, therefore an ongoing solo book would be super tough. Not saying that they did this to purposely deny Borg a solo, just that a black dude with a regular face would be able to go further.

#15 Posted by Decept-O (7274 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just glad Cyborg isn't sporting that awful white lingerie he used to have.

#16 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first. There's no big reason it's just a subliminal reminder or some kind of subconscious symbol. It's weird. I don't really know why, but they do that s*** ALL THE TIME. As far as Black Luke Sywalker: every black movie is about slavery and poverty. There is no black LOTR or Matrix. If they did make an all black movie in space I guarantee they would be fighing against an intergalactic "The Man" and have space 40s. Why? That's what we (Americans, Earthlings) think about black people. That's what I'm trying to hip y'all to: it's a subtle veneer that overlays all our interactions. It's kind of benign but it's annoying. Imagine you were bald and everything everyone said to you started out with "I knew this bald guy once" or "They have a new baldness cure I read about" you'd be like "Okay! Enough with the bald s***." Back to Cyborg: He can never become a reporter and just have a regular life cause half his face is metal, therefore an ongoing solo book would be super tough. Not saying that they did this to purposely deny Borg a solo, just that a black dude with a regular face would be able to go further.

Yeah! That must be why Mister Terrific is doing so well... oh wait... nevermind. I'm not saying that Cyborg or Mister Terrific have anything to do with racism, just disproving your point. Cyborg has been a popular character for a long time, even in the Teen Titans cartoon, and, guess what, his face is half metal. That is his character. I'm not saying that Racism DOESN'T exist either. I have family in the deep south who are frankly downright racist and it pisses me off to know end, but seeing it everywhere is taking it to a new extreme. You may think that Racism exists in a subtle form everywhere, but that is your opinion, not universal fact, and relating it to characters in a fictitious universe is like relating violence in video games to the production of serial killers.

#17 Edited by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first. There's no big reason it's just a subliminal reminder or some kind of subconscious symbol. It's weird. I don't really know why, but they do that s*** ALL THE TIME. As far as Black Luke Sywalker: every black movie is about slavery and poverty. There is no black LOTR or Matrix. If they did make an all black movie in space I guarantee they would be fighing against an intergalactic "The Man" and have space 40s. Why? That's what we (Americans, Earthlings) think about black people. That's what I'm trying to hip y'all to: it's a subtle veneer that overlays all our interactions. It's kind of benign but it's annoying. Imagine you were bald and everything everyone said to you started out with "I knew this bald guy once" or "They have a new baldness cure I read about" you'd be like "Okay! Enough with the bald s***." Back to Cyborg: He can never become a reporter and just have a regular life cause half his face is metal, therefore an ongoing solo book would be super tough. Not saying that they did this to purposely deny Borg a solo, just that a black dude with a regular face would be able to go further.

Another thing, it is important to note that there is a very real difference between racism and stereotyping. Writing a black character who comes from the ghetto is NOT racist. Having a black character die in a horror or adventure movie is NOT racist. I'm not racist if I look at a black man and say, "I bet that dude has a huge wang," or, "I wonder if that black guy can swim." Likewise I don't think an African American is racist if he looks at me and says, "I bet that white boy can't dance," or "Bet he can't play basketball either," (they'd be right by the way. I can do neither of these things). These are STEREOTYPES not examples of racism. Racism is the inherit belief that your collective race is better than any other and that this superiority constitutes discrimination or elimination. The KKK are racist. The Black Panthers are racist. The Nazis are racist. I think there is quite a cosmically huge difference between these racist movements and the writers at DC.

Stereotyping is a cultural surety and it has existed since cultures first began to intermingle and we will never truly be rid of it, but it is not racism.

#18 Posted by Captain13 (3257 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first. There's no big reason it's just a subliminal reminder or some kind of subconscious symbol. It's weird. I don't really know why, but they do that s*** ALL THE TIME. As far as Black Luke Sywalker: every black movie is about slavery and poverty. There is no black LOTR or Matrix. If they did make an all black movie in space I guarantee they would be fighing against an intergalactic "The Man" and have space 40s. Why? That's what we (Americans, Earthlings) think about black people. That's what I'm trying to hip y'all to: it's a subtle veneer that overlays all our interactions. It's kind of benign but it's annoying. Imagine you were bald and everything everyone said to you started out with "I knew this bald guy once" or "They have a new baldness cure I read about" you'd be like "Okay! Enough with the bald s***." Back to Cyborg: He can never become a reporter and just have a regular life cause half his face is metal, therefore an ongoing solo book would be super tough. Not saying that they did this to purposely deny Borg a solo, just that a black dude with a regular face would be able to go further.

I agree.

@MonkeyToe said:

@EdBlank said:

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first. There's no big reason it's just a subliminal reminder or some kind of subconscious symbol. It's weird. I don't really know why, but they do that s*** ALL THE TIME. As far as Black Luke Sywalker: every black movie is about slavery and poverty. There is no black LOTR or Matrix. If they did make an all black movie in space I guarantee they would be fighing against an intergalactic "The Man" and have space 40s. Why? That's what we (Americans, Earthlings) think about black people. That's what I'm trying to hip y'all to: it's a subtle veneer that overlays all our interactions. It's kind of benign but it's annoying. Imagine you were bald and everything everyone said to you started out with "I knew this bald guy once" or "They have a new baldness cure I read about" you'd be like "Okay! Enough with the bald s***." Back to Cyborg: He can never become a reporter and just have a regular life cause half his face is metal, therefore an ongoing solo book would be super tough. Not saying that they did this to purposely deny Borg a solo, just that a black dude with a regular face would be able to go further.

Yeah! That must be why Mister Terrific is doing so well... oh wait... nevermind. I'm not saying that Cyborg or Mister Terrific have anything to do with racism, just disproving your point. Cyborg has been a popular character for a long time, even in the Teen Titans cartoon, and, guess what, his face is half metal. That is his character. I'm not saying that Racism DOESN'T exist either. I have family in the deep south who are frankly downright racist and it pisses me off to know end, but seeing it everywhere is taking it to a new extreme. You may think that Racism exists in a subtle form everywhere, but that is your opinion, not universal fact, and relating it to characters in a fictitious universe is like relating violence in video games to the production of serial killers.

Mister Terrific the character had a much better chance at a solo than Cyborg, but the writer (who happens to be Black) could not stop focusing on his race and could not for the life of him write a good story. And the art was shotty. That's why Mr. T failed-not because he was good looking. You didn't disprove anything with your example.

It would be more difficult for Cyborg to have a civilian life, which makes him more difficult to relate to--that's a barrier for any writer. The most popular characters are the ones people graft themselves onto or the characters people want to be (Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Green Lantern). Who wants to be a guy with a half-face?

Finally, if you look at the sales numbers for teen titans action figures when the cartoon came out, the Cyborg figure sold the least--by a lot. I worked at a target, and you couldn't give his toys away. Little kids care more about looks than you give them credit for (Eww, Rachel is fat. Bobby is the booger boy).

Finally, saying that talking about race is what keeps racism alive is the dumbest thing. From the time we are young we can see the physical and cultural distinctions among people. Humans also try to simplify things to make them better to understand--if he did this, then this other person must be similar for so and so reason. The best way to tackle racism--which is still institutionalized in our society--as any sociologist would tell you--is to talk and educate people about it.

-Cap

#19 Edited by cattlebattle (12579 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone is thinking about black people and not how Cyborgs feel about his representation........shame on all of you

#20 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

Mister Terrific the character had a much better chance at a solo than Cyborg, but the writer (who happens to be Black) could not stop focusing on his race and could not for the life of him write a good story. And the art was shotty. That's why Mr. T failed-not because he was good looking. You didn't disprove anything with your example.

It would be more difficult for Cyborg to have a civilian life, which makes him more difficult to relate to--that's a barrier for any writer. The most popular characters are the ones people graft themselves onto or the characters people want to be (Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Green Lantern). Who wants to be a guy with a half-face?

Finally, if you look at the sales numbers for teen titans action figures when the cartoon came out, the Cyborg figure sold the least--by a lot. I worked at a target, and you couldn't give his toys away. Little kids care more about looks than you give them credit for (Eww, Rachel is fat. Bobby is the booger boy).

Finally, saying that talking about race is what keeps racism alive is the dumbest thing. From the time we are young we can see the physical and cultural distinctions among people. Humans also try to simplify things to make them better to understand--if he did this, then this other person must be similar for so and so reason. The best way to tackle racism--which is still institutionalized in our society--as any sociologist would tell you--is to talk and educate people about it.

-Cap

We must have been reading different Mister T books because I don't feel the comic was at all focused on his race, but maybe I wasn't engaged in the story enough.

Do you have the link to prove your point on the action figures? Likewise there are other popular characters who are disfigured and monstrous, like Cable (half machine face), Deadpool, and (correct me if I am wrong here) Spawn. It just seems silly to me to say that a character can't be successful because he doesn't have a normal face.

But neither of those points detract from the discussion on this thread that the portrayal of Cyborg is racist because it denotes him as an African American who is less than human, which is a hypothesis that I disagree with and reject.

#21 Posted by EdBlank (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe: I don't think you're reading for comprehension. I never said a Nazi working at DC made Cyborg into a weird looking character to purposefully hurt the Black race. Let me try again: "Hey let's put a Black guy on the JL for the sake of diversity" "Cool, which one?" okay right here they had a chance to give a black charater some shine that no solo book could. If [whoever] is on JL then they get to ride along with Super and Bats to stardom. At that point, said character could even possibly go mainstream in the same way as the big names and become more than just a comic character, he could become an icon (like Super or Bats... not as huge but youknowhamsayin). They could have used Mr T, they could have used Stewart, they could have used any number of charaters but for them to choose Cyborg automatically slows him down in the public's eye. Robocop was cool but c'mon, how many times can he say "drop it" and do the slo mo robot walk. To really make a super hero into a real "character" he has to have a girlfriend and all the other square s*** on the side so that people can relate. A dude like Spawn with a demon face can make some noise, but it only goes so far. It was a good opportunity to push a black character (it that was their goal) and they chose one without legs (metaphorically). On to your other point: it is absolutely racist to assume that I can't swim because I'm black. I swam a half mile this morning and every week day morning. I used to swim a mile but I cut back distance to focus on speed. That is the whole problem with racism. You ASSUME something about me because of my race and you or I may miss out on opportunities becuase you wouldn't even think to ask me to participate in your swimming event. Every single American is racist becuase we all think this way. Black people hold racist ideas about THEMSELVES. Women look down on THEMSELVES in ways because society does. The word you were trying to describe is "discrimination" As a bunch of racists, we have to try our best not to discriminate on people based on our racist outlook. So if you're hosting a triathlon, you should probably at least ask the black guy if he's interested cause he just might be able to swim. Thinking he can't swim=racist. Not inviting him anyway=discrimination.

#22 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see anything racist with Cyborg.

Moderator
#23 Edited by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

#24 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

There's absolutely nothing racist about Cyborg being a cyborg.

Get over it.

#25 Edited by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

@MonkeyToe: I don't think you're reading for comprehension. I never said a Nazi working at DC made Cyborg into a weird looking character to purposefully hurt the Black race. Let me try again: "Hey let's put a Black guy on the JL for the sake of diversity" "Cool, which one?" okay right here they had a chance to give a black charater some shine that no solo book could. If [whoever] is on JL then they get to ride along with Super and Bats to stardom. At that point, said character could even possibly go mainstream in the same way as the big names and become more than just a comic character, he could become an icon (like Super or Bats... not as huge but youknowhamsayin). They could have used Mr T, they could have used Stewart, they could have used any number of charaters but for them to choose Cyborg automatically slows him down in the public's eye. Robocop was cool but c'mon, how many times can he say "drop it" and do the slo mo robot walk. To really make a super hero into a real "character" he has to have a girlfriend and all the other square s*** on the side so that people can relate. A dude like Spawn with a demon face can make some noise, but it only goes so far. It was a good opportunity to push a black character (it that was their goal) and they chose one without legs (metaphorically). On to your other point: it is absolutely racist to assume that I can't swim because I'm black. I swam a half mile this morning and every week day morning. I used to swim a mile but I cut back distance to focus on speed. That is the whole problem with racism. You ASSUME something about me because of my race and you or I may miss out on opportunities becuase you wouldn't even think to ask me to participate in your swimming event. Every single American is racist becuase we all think this way. Black people hold racist ideas about THEMSELVES. Women look down on THEMSELVES in ways because society does. The word you were trying to describe is "discrimination" As a bunch of racists, we have to try our best not to discriminate on people based on our racist outlook. So if you're hosting a triathlon, you should probably at least ask the black guy if he's interested cause he just might be able to swim. Thinking he can't swim=racist. Not inviting him anyway=discrimination.

On your first point: I never said you said any of that. The topic of this thread is how Cyborg is demeaning to African Americans because it portrays him as 'less than human'. All the other stuff you are saying about Cyborg not being a strong character is your opinion and isn't supported by fact or precedence, I was merely relating it to the topic of this thread.

On your second point: You're just flat out wrong there. I think you need to look up the term racism and understand what a stereotype is. The thought isn't what makes a person a racist, it's their actions. I can see a black man on the street and think to myself "I wonder if he can swim," without it being racist (I'm not saying that I do, mind you, just using it as an example). This is a stereotype that has been perpetuated by the American culture usually based on historical context or actual statistics. It is obvious to most logical thinkers that a black man CAN in fact swim when they learn how, but that doesn't change the fact that, statistically speaking in some areas, there are far less black youth that actually know how to swim because they either haven't been given the opportunity to learn how.

Now, when I am the coach of an Olympic swim team and I refuse to let a black man try out for my team because he is black and because I think black people can't swim (Again, I DON'T think that). THIS IS RACISM. Likewise, if a white man approaches a group of black friends playing basketball and asks to play, the black players may think "This white guy can't play ball!" but the second they actually let the white man play the game with them, they exhibit the fact that they are NOT racist. Racism REQUIRES the act of believing that a race is inferior to another or hating an individual based on race alone. This is the DEFINITION of racism. And racism is not a subtle beast.

PREJUDICE on the other hand is far subtler and can be influenced by negative stereotypes, but PREJUDICE is not the same as RACISM either.

#26 Edited by Skunkstein (591 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by Steps (657 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

I think Chronicle is the best movie I've ever seen. Why did the Black guy die first? Another question: why is there always the one Black guy in horror movies and why does he always die first? They put him in the movie explicitly for the purpose of killing him first.

Wrong Turn 2, the black guy survives because he followed the horror movie commandments.

#28 Edited by Captain13 (3257 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

I don't see anything racist with Cyborg.

Not racist. Racially insensitive. There's a difference.

The argument is that Cyborg's half face will keep him from being popular. It's important for him to be popular because he represents Blacks on the JL. If he's unpopular and unnecessary than he's token. And that's offensive to everyone.

#29 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@Deranged Midget said:

I don't see anything racist with Cyborg.

Not racist. Racially insensitive. There's a difference.

The argument is that Cyborg's half face will keep him from being popular. It's important for him to be popular because he represents Blacks on the JL. If he's unpopular and unnecessary than he's token. And that's offensive to everyone.

Ah I see.

Moderator
#30 Edited by Captain13 (3257 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe said:

@Captain13 said:

Mister Terrific the character had a much better chance at a solo than Cyborg, but the writer (who happens to be Black) could not stop focusing on his race and could not for the life of him write a good story. And the art was shotty. That's why Mr. T failed-not because he was good looking. You didn't disprove anything with your example.

It would be more difficult for Cyborg to have a civilian life, which makes him more difficult to relate to--that's a barrier for any writer. The most popular characters are the ones people graft themselves onto or the characters people want to be (Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Green Lantern). Who wants to be a guy with a half-face?

Finally, if you look at the sales numbers for teen titans action figures when the cartoon came out, the Cyborg figure sold the least--by a lot. I worked at a target, and you couldn't give his toys away. Little kids care more about looks than you give them credit for (Eww, Rachel is fat. Bobby is the booger boy).

Finally, saying that talking about race is what keeps racism alive is the dumbest thing. From the time we are young we can see the physical and cultural distinctions among people. Humans also try to simplify things to make them better to understand--if he did this, then this other person must be similar for so and so reason. The best way to tackle racism--which is still institutionalized in our society--as any sociologist would tell you--is to talk and educate people about it.

-Cap

We must have been reading different Mister T books because I don't feel the comic was at all focused on his race, but maybe I wasn't engaged in the story enough.

Do you have the link to prove your point on the action figures? Likewise there are other popular characters who are disfigured and monstrous, like Cable (half machine face), Deadpool, and (correct me if I am wrong here) Spawn. It just seems silly to me to say that a character can't be successful because he doesn't have a normal face.

But neither of those points detract from the discussion on this thread that the portrayal of Cyborg is racist because it denotes him as an African American who is less than human, which is a hypothesis that I disagree with and reject.

Reread the first issue. Power girl and Mr. T's friend talk about race and the fact that Mr. T is dating a white woman. Also, Mr. T. makes a joke about his race in the context of perceived racism. Blackness shows up in later issues as well. if it were written better like the 1993 Static series, it wouldn't have bothered me as much.

I did a search for the figures and couldn't find them again.

Fathers and Sons

Cable became popular when the only mecahnial part of his face was his eye (or is it just psychic?). His half-face is a recent development due to his death and will be retconned--believe me.

Spawn and Deadpool wear full face masks. What's your point? If Cyborg could hide his face plate then it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Look at Swamp Thing or Hulk. Both have monstrous appearances but can become normal looking. It silly that Cyborg can't--especially with Metallo running around.

Not racist just racially insensitive And you don't need to agree with my hypothesis. I don't care. Just like I don't care if some people believe in creationism or fairies. You won't see what you don't want to see. You can stick your head in the sand again.

#31 Edited by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:


Reread the first issue. Power girl and Mr. T's friend talk about race and the fact that Mr. T is dating a white woman. Also, Mr. T. makes a joke about his race in the context of perceived racism. Blackness shows up in later issues as well. if it were written better like the 1993 Static series, it wouldn't have bothered me as much.

I did a search for the figures and couldn't find them again.

Cable became popular when the only mecahnial part of his face was his eye (or is it just psychic?). His half-face is a recent development due to his death and will be retconned--believe me.

Spawn and Deadpool wear full face masks. What's your point? If Cyborg could hide his face plate then it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Look at Swamp Thing or Hulk. Both have monstrous appearances but can become normal looking. It silly that Cyborg can't--especially with Metallo running around.

Not racist just racially insensitive And you don't need to agree with my hypothesis. I don't care. Just like I don't care if some people believe in creationism or fairies. You won't see what you don't want to see. You can stick your head in the dirt again.

I'll have to go back and check it out.

That doesn't change the fact that what you find as 'racially insensitive' is based on your opinion where as the belief in creationism and fairies belies an argument of facts, of which you have none that Cyborg is a racially insensitive character.

But in your terms; You see what you want to see I guess, just like the people who believe the moon landing was faked or that there was a second shooter was on the grassy knoll. Some people just need something to shake their fist at I guess.

#32 Posted by Captain13 (3257 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe said:

@Captain13 said:


Reread the first issue. Power girl and Mr. T's friend talk about race and the fact that Mr. T is dating a white woman. Also, Mr. T. makes a joke about his race in the context of perceived racism. Blackness shows up in later issues as well. if it were written better like the 1993 Static series, it wouldn't have bothered me as much.

I did a search for the figures and couldn't find them again.

Cable became popular when the only mecahnial part of his face was his eye (or is it just psychic?). His half-face is a recent development due to his death and will be retconned--believe me.

Spawn and Deadpool wear full face masks. What's your point? If Cyborg could hide his face plate then it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Look at Swamp Thing or Hulk. Both have monstrous appearances but can become normal looking. It silly that Cyborg can't--especially with Metallo running around.

Not racist just racially insensitive And you don't need to agree with my hypothesis. I don't care. Just like I don't care if some people believe in creationism or fairies. You won't see what you don't want to see. You can stick your head in the dirt again.

I'll have to go back and check it out.

That doesn't change the fact that what you find as 'racially insensitive' is based on your opinion where as the belief in creationism and fairies belies an argument of facts, of which you have none that Cyborg is a racially insensitive character.

But in your terms; You see what you want to see I guess, just like the people who believe the moon landing was faked or that there was a second shooter was on the grassy knoll. Some people just need something to shake their fist at I guess.

Racial insensitivity was pointed out in the OP. That is all. Good day, sir.

#33 Posted by Vance Astro (91105 posts) - - Show Bio

There isn't anything racist about Cyborg but he is a rip-off of Deathlok..IWINRITE?

Moderator
#34 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:


Racial insensitivity was pointed out in the OP. That is all. Good day, sir.

The OP point was, and I am quoting, "But the problem is the negative image that it puts forth for the Black Community nationally and internationally. He depicts this image of Black people as less human. A half-man." Not as YOU put it, "The argument is that Cyborg's half face will keep him from being popular. It's important for him to be popular because he represents Blacks on the JL. If he's unpopular and unnecessary than he's token. And that's offensive to everyone."

You missed the OP's point entirely and started perpetrating your own agenda in the interim. But even the OP's is based on opinion. Just because he and you say that "Cyborg is a racially insensitive character" does not make it so.

#35 Posted by Vance Astro (91105 posts) - - Show Bio

If DC wasn't ACTUALLY racist before, they wouldn't get this type of criticism for the things they do.I don't care about Cyborg's appearance.What annoys me is that companies like DC seemingly reach so much to try and make their minority readers believe they've changed and that actually just comes off seeming racist in itself.All they need to do is create superheroes of any minority with the same enthusiasm and attention they do when they create ones that are white.We understand that certain things were more acceptable in the past and that's why certain things are the way they are.They don't need to keep creating certain types of characters and making certain changes to try and make us feel like they are making and effort to give us better representation in comics.

Moderator
#36 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

If DC wasn't ACTUALLY racist before, they wouldn't get this type of criticism for the things they do.I don't care about Cyborg's appearance.What annoys me is that companies like DC seemingly reach so much to try and make their minority readers believe they've changed and that actually just comes off seeming racist in itself.All they need to do is create superheroes of any minority with the same enthusiasm and attention they do when they create ones that are white.We understand that certain things were more acceptable in the past and that's why certain things are the way they are.They don't need to keep creating certain types of characters and making certain changes to try and make us feel like they are making and effort to give us better representation in comics.

Sorry, this argument makes no sense to me. How can you call someone racist for trying to be more diverse?

#37 Posted by Vance Astro (91105 posts) - - Show Bio
@MonkeyToe said:

@Vance Astro said:

If DC wasn't ACTUALLY racist before, they wouldn't get this type of criticism for the things they do.I don't care about Cyborg's appearance.What annoys me is that companies like DC seemingly reach so much to try and make their minority readers believe they've changed and that actually just comes off seeming racist in itself.All they need to do is create superheroes of any minority with the same enthusiasm and attention they do when they create ones that are white.We understand that certain things were more acceptable in the past and that's why certain things are the way they are.They don't need to keep creating certain types of characters and making certain changes to try and make us feel like they are making and effort to give us better representation in comics.

Sorry, this argument makes no sense to me. How can you call someone racist for trying to be more diverse?

It's not an argument it is really just a statement I was making.I completely disagree with the idea that Cyborg is a racist representation of black people.My point was that some of the moves that DC makes comes off as racist, as in people of a certain minority may feel like they are being patronized by what they are doing.The original Justice League was all white (Superman is a Kryptonian but he portrays himself as Clark Kent, a white male), which is fine..but they rebooted\revamped their origin and now Cyborg is a member which to some people could come off as DC throwing him in as to not appear racist.You get what I mean? It's like then they make a superhero film but they change a characters race to black or some other race because otherwise there would be no black people in the film? I don't think that companies do that because they are making an HONEST effort to be more diverse.
Moderator
#38 Posted by Superdork (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe said:

@Captain13 said:


Racial insensitivity was pointed out in the OP. That is all. Good day, sir.

The OP point was, and I am quoting, "But the problem is the negative image that it puts forth for the Black Community nationally and internationally. He depicts this image of Black people as less human. A half-man." Not as YOU put it, "The argument is that Cyborg's half face will keep him from being popular. It's important for him to be popular because he represents Blacks on the JL. If he's unpopular and unnecessary than he's token. And that's offensive to everyone."

You missed the OP's point entirely and started perpetrating your own agenda in the interim. But even the OP's is based on opinion. Just because he and you say that "Cyborg is a racially insensitive character" does not make it so.

I usually don't comment on threads that I start, but I have to now.

I never said Cyborg was racist. Just racially insensitive like Captain interpreted correctly. People have been throwing "racist" around in this thread. I never called Cyborg's creators racist or DC racist. I applauded DC actually. I called some members of the national and international community ignorant and that therefore Cyborg should go against the grain of their views of African Americans. You only quoted one part of my post and did not click on any of my links, which further illustrate my points. Don't twist my words, bro montana.

I repeat. Don't twist my words. READ.

#39 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

There's absolutely nothing racist about Cyborg being a cyborg.

Get over it.

#40 Posted by AtraCruor (237 posts) - - Show Bio

You know.... I see all this talk about Cyborg being monsterous... his being on the JL as a way to put black people down sorta. His being on the JL slowing his char down ect.

Well on the mosterous and pretty much everything about his appearence I call you on that and raise you War from Darksiders. Also Nightmare from Soul Calibur. While he is not black his appearence can fit into that description especially the early art of him. What I also see is Cyborg is another victim of the New 52's update everyone's look and make them look more "baddass".

Cyborg's appearence isn't ever going to keep him from being popular. He is like many of the team characters out there that it would be cool have a book for him but it just won't work

But above all I see something that I think everyone's forgetting. I don't see the Justice League, I see the Super Friends xDD.

#41 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@MonkeyToe said:

@Vance Astro said:

If DC wasn't ACTUALLY racist before, they wouldn't get this type of criticism for the things they do.I don't care about Cyborg's appearance.What annoys me is that companies like DC seemingly reach so much to try and make their minority readers believe they've changed and that actually just comes off seeming racist in itself.All they need to do is create superheroes of any minority with the same enthusiasm and attention they do when they create ones that are white.We understand that certain things were more acceptable in the past and that's why certain things are the way they are.They don't need to keep creating certain types of characters and making certain changes to try and make us feel like they are making and effort to give us better representation in comics.

Sorry, this argument makes no sense to me. How can you call someone racist for trying to be more diverse?

It's not an argument it is really just a statement I was making.I completely disagree with the idea that Cyborg is a racist representation of black people.My point was that some of the moves that DC makes comes off as racist, as in people of a certain minority may feel like they are being patronized by what they are doing.The original Justice League was all white (Superman is a Kryptonian but he portrays himself as Clark Kent, a white male), which is fine..but they rebooted\revamped their origin and now Cyborg is a member which to some people could come off as DC throwing him in as to not appear racist.You get what I mean? It's like then they make a superhero film but they change a characters race to black or some other race because otherwise there would be no black people in the film? I don't think that companies do that because they are making an HONEST effort to be more diverse.

I disagree, but respectfully. I don't think DC is doing it to seem less racist, I think they are doing it to expand their market. Back in the golden age of comics in the 1930s and 1940s, Comic Book publishers main market were White Men. Period. Women had just won the right to vote in the 20s, and African Americans were free but still heavily discriminated against and segregated until the mid-40s to early 50s. A lot of our still popular comic book heroes date back to this golden age of comics. But now, the market is starting to shift. Comic books can't just appeal to white men anymore because we have become such a diverse culture. But likewise, they can't just kill off all the white male super heroes that have been passed down through the generation of white male father to white male sons either. So I don't think they are trying to seem lest racist, I just think they are trying to catch the attention of different demographics.

#42 Posted by Billy Batson (57741 posts) - - Show Bio

lol.
BB

#43 Edited by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Superdork said:

@MonkeyToe said:

@Captain13 said:


Racial insensitivity was pointed out in the OP. That is all. Good day, sir.

The OP point was, and I am quoting, "But the problem is the negative image that it puts forth for the Black Community nationally and internationally. He depicts this image of Black people as less human. A half-man." Not as YOU put it, "The argument is that Cyborg's half face will keep him from being popular. It's important for him to be popular because he represents Blacks on the JL. If he's unpopular and unnecessary than he's token. And that's offensive to everyone."

You missed the OP's point entirely and started perpetrating your own agenda in the interim. But even the OP's is based on opinion. Just because he and you say that "Cyborg is a racially insensitive character" does not make it so.

I usually don't comment on threads that I start, but I have to now.

I never said Cyborg was racist. Just racially insensitive like Captain interpreted correctly. People have been throwing "racist" around in this thread. I never called Cyborg's creators racist or DC racist. I applauded DC actually. I called some members of the national and international community ignorant and that therefore Cyborg should go against the grain of their views of African Americans. You only quoted one part of my post and did not click on any of my links, which further illustrate my points. Don't twist my words, bro montana.

I repeat. Don't twist my words. READ.

Did you even read the posts that you quoted? I very clearly say in the last line:

"Just because he and you say that "Cyborg is a racially insensitive character" does not make it so"

I used the word racist in an earlier post by mistake, but that wasn't what Captain and I were discussing.

#44 Posted by Manchine (3953 posts) - - Show Bio

People that see racism every where are almost as bad as people that are racist. I know this from personal experience. I have been called racist 3 times in my life.

1) YEARS AGO I worked at talking to people as they walked by in the mall to try to get them to get a Sears Card. I ignored all Mall Walkers because it was useless to try and talk to them as I found out. Well a black lady took it upon herself to give me a mindfull because she was a mall walker and I never said anything to her. I was VERY young and didn't talk back because thats the way I was raised but I should of.

2) My Confederate Avengers Supergroup in RPG. Found out some people thought I was being RACIST because of the name. It had nothing to do with Racism it was for the location thats all.

3) At work again a couple years ago at the apartment I managed. A Black lady again wanted new carpet I took pictures. We had just put new carpet in less 3 years ago some spots were worn. Halflife on carpet is 7 years so we can only replace carpet every 7 years, unless there is an extreme reason. Corporate said "no". She came in complained called corporate. The district manager even came in and looked it. This was not due to wear and tear this was due to her neglagence (sp?). She then typed a letter saying we were being racist to her. It was found we weren't by the state and she had a dog there illegally.

#45 Posted by Vance Astro (91105 posts) - - Show Bio
@MonkeyToe said:

I disagree, but respectfully. I don't think DC is doing it to seem less racist, I think they are doing it to expand their market. Back in the golden age of comics in the 1930s and 1940s, Comic Book publishers main market were White Men. Period. Women had just won the right to vote in the 20s, and African Americans were free but still heavily discriminated against and segregated until the mid-40s to early 50s. A lot of our still popular comic book heroes date back to this golden age of comics. But now, the market is starting to shift. Comic books can't just appeal to white men anymore because we have become such a diverse culture. But likewise, they can't just kill off all the white male super heroes that have been passed down through the generation of white male father to white male sons either. So I don't think they are trying to seem lest racist, I just think they are trying to catch the attention of different demographics.

That's what seems patronizing.The idea that people of a certain minority won't read the books because there aren't any black characters is absurd.The idea that we won't go see a film based on comics because they didn't put any black characters in it despite the series in question not actually having any black characters in it is ridiculous also. Women,Minorities,and Homosexuals understand that things were different when comics first came out but all they have to do is gradually integrate characters of that type into comics.When you retcon something to make it appear as if that book was always like that, I feel like there is more to it than "we are reaching out to another type of reader".Comics have almost never represented anything but white males correctly and they STILL don't yet people that fit in those categories still read comics..this all seems forced and phony to me.
Moderator
#46 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@MonkeyToe said:

I disagree, but respectfully. I don't think DC is doing it to seem less racist, I think they are doing it to expand their market. Back in the golden age of comics in the 1930s and 1940s, Comic Book publishers main market were White Men. Period. Women had just won the right to vote in the 20s, and African Americans were free but still heavily discriminated against and segregated until the mid-40s to early 50s. A lot of our still popular comic book heroes date back to this golden age of comics. But now, the market is starting to shift. Comic books can't just appeal to white men anymore because we have become such a diverse culture. But likewise, they can't just kill off all the white male super heroes that have been passed down through the generation of white male father to white male sons either. So I don't think they are trying to seem lest racist, I just think they are trying to catch the attention of different demographics.

That's what seems patronizing.The idea that people of a certain minority won't read the books because there aren't any black characters is absurd.The idea that we won't go see a film based on comics because they didn't put any black characters in it despite the series in question not actually having any black characters in it is ridiculous also. Women,Minorities,and Homosexuals understand that things were different when comics first came out but all they have to do is gradually integrate characters of that type into comics.When you retcon something to make it appear as if that book was always like that, I feel like there is more to it than "we are reaching out to another type of reader".Comics have almost never represented anything but white males correctly and they STILL don't yet people that fit in those categories still read comics..this all seems forced and phony to me.

I don't really have a counter argument for you here. I started reading DC at the launch of the New 52 so my experience with the past DC universe is limited so I don't know exactly what all has changed. All I can say is it is a market strategy (I can't say whether it is successful or not) and they are trying to maximize their profits while trying to expand into a different demographic.

#47 Edited by Vance Astro (91105 posts) - - Show Bio
@MonkeyToe said:

All I can say is it is a market strategy (I can't say whether it is successful or not) and they are trying to maximize their profits while trying to expand into a different demographic.

I understand..but do you understand why that would come off as offensive to some people? If people like me have been underrepresented in any medium for years and then you unnecessarily change things to appease me, wouldn't you have a negative reaction to it? It's like going to a job interview and being told you're only getting the job to fill the black quota.It completely disregards the fact that black people can like characters for other reasons then being able to relate on a physical level.I would like some diversity in comics but if only for the sake of the company, for them to produce a product that is more realistic to the world we live in.That should be the purpose of the diversity, not to act as if it will attract more people of that type if they add characters like them in.Know what I mean?
Moderator
#48 Edited by EdBlank (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manchine: You can't use the word "Confederate" in mixed company. It's like calling your group "Nazi Avengers" then being like "What?". Confederate means "Black people should still be slaves". Period. Don't fix your fingers to type a rebuttal. That's what it means and no decent Black person would grin and bear it. Lady Antebellum is another example. It's the most hateful thing you can say. The fact that 1) you don't get it and 2) once someone tells you you STILL defend it leads to my next point........ @MonkeyToe : you telling me what the "definition" of racism is is like telling a fish the "definition" of water. I have lived in and breathed racism from birth. My mother, her mother, all the way back half a MILLENIUM. If the dictionary says something different than we do then the dictionary needs to be changed. Like Manchine just illustrated: you guys are basically oblivious to racism for the most part unless someone is burning a cross. Open your mind and actually ponder these words, don't just deny and defend becuase "why are you guys still talking about racism. It's over". It's here. It's as American as apple pie.

#49 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

I understand that YOU feel it's offensive. That's as close as we're going to get on the subject probably. I can't say what my reaction would be because I don't have a frame of reference. All I can say is that I don't think this is DC diversifying for the sake of diversity. They aren't 'appeasing' anyone, just trying to appeal to a broader market because the fact is, you are going to identify with characters that are more like you. Now as a black American (I assume this is the case for you?) who was already a fan, it pisses you off because they are messing with a medium you already loved. But in that case it has nothing to do with the issue of the inclusion of more diversity, you're just flat out mad that they ret-conned a bunch of history for NEW readers, no matter what there race is.

#50 Edited by Manchine (3953 posts) - - Show Bio

@EdBlank said:

@Manchine: You can't use the word "Confederate" in mixed company. It's like calling your group "Nazi Avengers" then being like "What?". Confederate means "Black people should still be slaves". Period. Don't fix your fingers to type a rebuttal. That's what it means and no decent Black person would grin and bear it. Lady Antebellum is another example. It's the most hateful thing you can say. The fact that 1) you don't get it and 2) once someone tells you you STILL defend it leads to my next point........ @MonkeyToe : you telling me what the "definition" of racism is is like telling a fish the "definition" of water. I have lived in and breathed racism from birth. My mother, her mother, all the way back half a MILLENIUM. If the dictionary says something different than we do then the dictionary needs to be changed. Like Manchine just illustrated: you guys are basically oblivious to racism for the most part unless someone is burning a cross. Open your mind and actually ponder these words, don't just deny and defend becuase "why are you guys still talking about racism. It's over". It's here. It's as American as apple pie.

Thats the difference. You feel its offensive. It doesn't make it so. Just like nazi stirs up images of SS and such. Nazi's origins were not even close to that. People add feeling which makes it offensive to themselves it doesn't make it offensive for the person using it.

This is exactly why people that see racism every is just as bad as people that are actually racist.

EDIT

I am not saying there isn't any racism. Saying there isn't is stupid cause there is. Although People using it as a crutch saying there is racism when there isn't any is just as stupid.

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