Let's argue the finer points of this list. I'm glad that Buckshot added this page to Concepts. Let's not edit it too much without a group consensus.
Also, points to be had for linking all those character names to their pages.
Red L.A.M.P. says:
" Also, points to be had for linking all those character names to their pages."
Am I looking at the wrong list ( http://www.comicvine.com/cross-company-character-rankings/43598/ ) as they aren't linked. Anyhew, good work on that Buckshot.
I have one to add, Zatanna. I reckon herald middle, but that might just be because she'd be next to Wonder Woman like in my happy dream.
And adding my proof reading skills, Enchantress is out of alphabetical order.
Figure I should say (after my initial post) I know it's easy for me to criticise, it really is a good job.
Post Edited:2007-05-03 19:05:50
Cosmic Sentinel says:
"Red L.A.M.P. says:" Also, points to be had for linking all those character names to their pages."
Am I looking at the wrong list ( http://www.comicvine.com/cross-company-character-rankings/43598/ ) as they aren't linked. "
That's what I was saying, points to be had, or you can get points if you jump in and link the characters.
Just looking at the bottom, seems kinda ridiculous to have Night Thrasher and Black Widow, etc on the same level as Penguin and Alfred who you could pretty much sneak up on and tip over and have won the fight. Should be another category under low like "helpless feebs". I added like a dozen links and got 3 points, if that autoscroll thing weren't happening it'd be a lot easier to do. Also whats going to happen to the links when dupes are merged? Like Question, The Question, Riddler, The Riddler, etc.
" Also whats going to happen to the links when dupes are merged? Like Question, The Question, Riddler, The Riddler, etc. "
Yeah that will be a problem we will always be battling. The links will end up breaking. There's code that I write to alleviate that problem... but then there's tons of other places Im needed as well.
"Ms. Invisible says:"I believe Alfred knows a bit of unarmed combat though."
Well put it this way is there anyone else on the bottom of that list he could take in a fight? "
"This may be the alchohol talking... and maybe a little bias too, but Quasar should be on the same level as the GLs: Hal, Kyle, and Alan.
Post Edited:2007-05-04 12:16:39"
I don't know much about him but from the little I do know, I don't think that's wrong.
"Annihilus should be in the trancendent area of the list as of the Annihilation storyline and Nova (Richard Rider) should be in the trancendent or at the very least upper herald level.
Post Edited:2007-05-04 13:09:38"
I don't think either of these are on the top level. Make a case for them.
Maybe we should have a vote for this thing so it's not just two people deciding who goes where?
As far as Quasar, The Quantum Bands do pretty much everything the power-rings do, without the weakness to a color and the 24-hour time limit. Quasar had supposedly mastered the bands.
As far as Nova, he has the entire Nova-Force within him. Given what Garthan Saal did with that power (taking on the East and West Coast Avengers and the Fantastic Four all at the same time and winning in Avengers #301-303.) he's at least at the same power level with half the people on the transendent list.
As far as Annihilus, according to the Worldmind in Nova #4, Annihilus outclassed the 'fully loaded' Nova in every measurable way.
I agree with Quasar. Nova I'm unsure of only because I don't know much and he didn't seem that impressive power-wise in Annihilation. Since the crossover fight is his biggest thing (I'm guessing), could you list who was on those Avengers teams and maybe how the fight went? I'm looking at the Low Herald position he's at and other people around him and it doesn't seem like he's out of place, but that's just me and like I said, I don't know much about Nova. Going by your reasoning for Annihilus, it really depends on Nova, so if he's not top level, Annihilus may not be either. We need more people putting in their thoughts.
"Anyone think Jean should be higher then mid-tier?"
It is for her without the Phoenix, so she'd be the same level as other telepaths like Psylocke.
I think Fernus should be the same level (which in my opimion would be the same as Superman)as Martian Manhunter as they are about the same level of power, just Fernus lacks any vunerability to flame.
I thought X-23 had the same powers as Wolverine?
Shouldn't Red Arrow be the same level as Green? The new Justice League suggests he's ready to take on Ollie's mantle.
I know I raised a few points there.
The High Herald Superman isn't normal Superman, it's Blue and Red and All Star, which are all (I think) more powerful than normal Superman (and MM). Fernus is like the super MM so they shouldn't be on the same level either.
I think Wolverine is just better because he's the original. If other people agree we could move X-23 up.
Red Arrow isn't as good at archery (yet) as Green Arrow and I don't think he has the martial arts abilities that Green Arrow recently acquired.
What do you think about Satyrquaze proposed changes?
Couple of things:
Shouldn't Sentry be trancendent becuase he was able to fight Galactus to a standstill?
Hulk shouldn't he be at least a middle Herald if not high. He has with stood Black Bots voice, destroyed and astroid twice the size of earth with a punch, beaten Silver Surfer and Thor.
Spider-Man be a middle or high Mid-Teir becuase he has beaten a character in the hearld level and has beaten guys in the higher rankings.
That goes for Wolveine same thing as Spider-Man.
Those are a couple that I noticed that should be moved up there may be a couple more and there are a couple that should be moved down.
I know next to nothing about Nova or Annihilus, so I can't really comment.
After the League freed MM, it was actually him that destroyed Fernus.
Added to that, I don't think Fernus did anything J'onn couldn't do once he got past the Guardians' progamming.
Is regular Superman at Herald middle, because he's not on the list?
Having reread JLA #7 I agree about Red Arrow, though he is closing the gap and maybe be moved in the near future (have to see how the new series plays out). I think i agree with you on X-23 as well.
"Spider-Man be a middle or high Mid-Teir becuase he has beaten a character in the hearld level and has beaten guys in the higher rankings. 4. That goes for Wolveine same thing as Spider-Man."
It's not necessarily the ability to beat someone higher (otherwise Batman would be much higher), but on overall power.
"Couple of things:1. Shouldn't Sentry be trancendent becuase he was able to fight Galactus to a standstill?2. Hulk shouldn't he be at least a middle Herald if not high. He has with stood Black Bots voice, destroyed and astroid twice the size of earth with a punch, beaten Silver Surfer and Thor.3. Spider-Man be a middle or high Mid-Teir becuase he has beaten a character in the hearld level and has beaten guys in the higher rankings.4. That goes for Wolveine same thing as Spider-Man.Those are a couple that I noticed that should be moved up there may be a couple more and there are a couple that should be moved down."
Just because a character can beat someone doesn't mean they should be moved up. It says that on the page. Spider-Man and Wolverine don't need to be moved. (I don't think any of the ones you mentioned should, but definitely not those two.) Also, Hulk never actually beat Silver Surfer (except for the time he was depowered on Sakaar). The details of the Sentry/Galactus thing haven't been shown (have they?).
Post Edited:2007-05-05 01:58:07
Cosmic Sentinel says:
"I know next to nothing about Nova or Annihilus, so I can't really comment.After the League freed MM, it was actually him that destroyed Fernus.Added to that, I don't think Fernus did anything J'onn couldn't do once he got past the Guardians' progamming.Is regular Superman at Herald middle, because he's not on the list?Having reread JLA #7 I agree about Red Arrow, though he is closing the gap and maybe be moved in the near future (have to see how the new series plays out). I think i agree with you on X-23 as well."
I always thought Fernus was a lot more powerful than MM in every way. If he's not then maybe he should be moved down instead of moving MM up? Either way, get someone else to voice an opinion. It's better if these changes come from some sort of consensus than just a couple people.
"But Quasar's dead now and Gravity is the new protector of the Universe with the quantum bands so..."
Gravity IS the new Protector of the Universe, but he doesn't have the bands, Phyla-Vell does.
"Nova I'm unsure of only because I don't know much and he didn't seem that impressive power-wise in Annihilation. Since the crossover fight is his biggest thing (I'm guessing), could you list who was on those Avengers teams and maybe how the fight went? I'm looking at the Low Herald position he's at and other people around him and it doesn't seem like he's out of place, but that's just me and like I said, I don't know much about Nova. Going by your reasoning for Annihilus, it really depends on Nova, so if he's not top level, Annihilus may not be either. We need more people putting in their thoughts."
The battle is listed in Garthan Saal's bio. It was Captain America, Mr, Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Gilgamesh, and Thor on the East Avengers; Hawkeye, Hank Pym, Wonderman, and Tigra (possibly orthers I don't have the issue in front of me) on the West Avengers; Human Torch, Thing, and She-Thing of the Fantastic Four. Firelord and Quasar also showed up to assist (this is the battle that got Quasar into the Avengers). I feel it's important to note that Garthan Saal was winning that fight when Reed Richards talked him out of destroying the Earth.
I'm open to the input of others as well on this. Thanks guys.
The only reason Fernus took control of J'onn was because of the Guardians' tampering with Martian psychology. When the League (mostly Manitou Raven) helped J'onn past that on a spiritual level, he was able to reassert himself. Plastic Man and the rest of the League really only managed to hold him back until that point (they may have been holding back waiting for J'onn to be free). I definitly think MM and Fernus should be on the same level as their is no suggestion that Fernus did anything J'onn couldn't (except get his mojo on by nuking cities).
MM is at least regular Superman's physical equal, before we consider his telepathy and shapeshifting. He has Superman's powers, is a versatile shapeshifter, possibly immortal, is only vulnerable now to fire with psychic connotations and is a powerful telepath. He easily took out the Crime Synicate's Ultraman on his own (though that was in part because he couldn't win in MM's reality). I think he's bordering on the line between high and middle herald as I would say he's the equal of some of the people on the high list (the GLs and Cyborg Superman and is near Silver Sufer, Mr. Majestic and Thor IMO). I would suggest High Herald for both, but I want to hear what others think. We need some sort of vote and maybe we should put it in it's own thread.
Um, why is Shadowcat a middle-level Metahuman while Wolverine is just a low-level Metahuman? That seems... off, to me. ;D Wolverine, as far as I know, has done a lot more and demonstrated a greater ability than Shadowcat...
And yes, I agree with people that Spider-Man shouldn't be higher on the list just because he can defeat more powerful foes with his brains. ;D
I'm starting to agree with Nova and Annihilus (as High Herald) because Nova (or someone with his power) took out several Mid Heralds and one High Herald character. The reason I'm not 100% yet is because the list should reflect the maximum abilities of characters. At the time, were Thor, Firelord, Wonder Man and Quasar fighting to the best of their ability? What I mean is, were they actually using all the powers and all the things that would make them the levels they are, or, for example, was Thor just swinging his hammer and not using the full range of his weather control abilities, speed, strength and Odinforce? Was Firelord actually using his cosmic powers or was he just blasting?
I think Martian Manhunter is powerful but most (not all, but most) of the High Herald level characters have control over cosmic forces or some enormous amount of energy, be they magic, science or natural. It's more than just their own abilities, but something that really lets them (if they wanted to) impact the universe on a large scale. I think MM (and Fernus) are higher than Mid Herald, but not necessarily High.
You might be right about making this its own thread. We need more people seeing this and either agreeing or disagreeing so we can make changes (or not).
Well, Quasar had just become Protector of the Universe. This battle takes place pretty much inbetween Quasar #3-4. So it could be argued he was a rookie... sorta.
But Thor, Firelord and Wonderman were as powerful as they've ever been. It was Thor Odinson and not Eric Masterson. Hank Pym and Hawkeye even comment that Supernova is at least stronger than either of them when he throws Wonderman into the ground leaving a crater and an unconscience Wonderman. Pym says something to the effect of 'I could never have done that as Giant Man.' and Hawkeye says 'Ditto Hank.'.
They've mentioned several times in Annilhiation how Richard Rider is afraid of losing control of the Nova-Force, perhaps he's holding back even in the fight with Annihilus, and Garthan Saal being insane at the time doesn't know to be afraid, and is therefore beating the crap out of the Avengers and Fantastic Four.
It is now it's own thread and can be found here:
I'd like to move Penance up one ranking (to Middle Metahuman). I read the other night that she's one of the most physically powerful beings on the planet and that she has a density approaching that of a dwarf star. (Generation X Annual '97)
Post Edited:2007-05-07 16:11:26
I don't see anything about either of them that puts them at the next level. Her probability powers aren't on the level of someone like Longshot and she's not really that great of a fighter (compared to others). Captain America is a better fighter and is physically superior, but he's still on that level. His powers are that he's peak human. He's the best human, but he's not above that. The meta-humans are all (I think) above human.
Well common consensus is the order. It was Buckshot who compiled the list btw. Cap and Blackcat are peak level humans like Batman. Blackcat did have bad luck powers, though I'm not sure if she still has them. They caused Spidey problems even though they are allies as she doesn't control it. They were removed and for a while she had super strength instead, though that faded.
Ultimate Cap is stronger than 616 and would be Low Metahuman.
Sara Pezzini, Spawn, Ninja Turtles, Dynamo 5 (can't remember the members off the top of my head), Danger Girl, Cyberforce (Cyblade, Ballistic, Heatwave, Ripclaw, Stryker, Velocity, Impact), The Darkness, Lara Croft.
Aspen, Cannon Hawke, Kiani, Grace(Soulfire)
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